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Well, I'll be damned. Good on you, Daum. Faith restored a bit, and actually renews my interest in getting logged into the game and doing stuff again. Might even have to buy a few pearls in the future. ....I just hope this new horse actually breeds as a Tier 5. I'm going to have to keep an eye on the breeding results thread to see what people are getting before I gamble one of my real horses on mating with it.
Yeah, you've got a pretty rational approach to the matter. While I'm quite upset, I also don't necessarily agree that this is "lawsuit-worthy" (or, rather, it's not worth the time to pursue over the fractional value of the horse in the total value of the package) but I do think it's worth having bad press and word-of-mouth for DaumEU. Boil away all of the arguments for or against the adjustment, the fact of the matter is that the horse that was advertised in the Conqueror package isn't a legitimate "Tier 5" horse. Even the developers have admitted it was altered (though we already knew that for a while) from a Tier 5 horse, which effectively means it can't be a Tier 5 horse. A single horse isn't the end of the world, even if it was the deciding factor in me buying the Conqueror edition over the Explorer. What does bother me, more-so than anything else, is the discrepancy between the packs (Explorer pack gets a real T3 horse, Conq gets modified, falsely advertised trash) and this official 'response' to the matter. DaumEU admitted that they falsely advertised the horse by admitting it was functionally different from a normal tier 5. Then, they immediately said that we would not be compensated for it. To me, this creates a bad precedent: DaumEU is, technically, not obligated to give the customer the item that the customer had presumed he or she was purchasing. The fiasco leaves a foul taste in my mouth, and prevents me from ever spending money on the game again -- a game that I genuinely enjoy, and would like to continue supporting. What if I buy the riding outfit for my Wizard, but instead I'm delivered a Musa riding outfit? Well, Daum gave me a "Riding Outfit" and it's not DaumEU's problem. What if it turned out that breeding reset coupons resulted in lower-tier foals than natural breeds? I mean, it doesn't promise on the coupon that breeds from the coupon would be on par with the quality of breeds without the coupon, so it's not DaumEU's problem. What if I buy an outfit box that turns out to be missing the shoes even though they were displayed on the store page? I got an outfit box, so it's not DaumEU's problem. Could my examples be dismissed as hyperbole? Sure, I suppose they could, but this horse farce proved that DaumEU's store page can say one thing, and DaumEU can deliver something else to the customer, and this is company policy and no concern for the customer will be given after the transaction. I feel morally and logically obligated to refuse to gamble any more money on the game, since there's no guarantee I'll get what I agreed to buy, and no recourse afterward if I don't get what I expected based on their sales presentation. And the pisser is that I really, really want to spend more money on the game. I like it a lot, and I'll continue to like it. I just won't risk any more money on the chance that DaumEU could defraud me again.
I still want to know why the $50 Explorer's pack (that was available pre-release and is still available now) includes a "Tier 3 horse" that is, in every way, equivalent to a Tier 3 horse naturally obtained in the game -- it has similar, unmodified stats, as a male it can be bred twice, it has an expected number of inventory slots... ...And yet the $100, pre-order exclusive Conqueror's pack includes a "Tier 5 horse" that has 66% of the stamina of a real Tier 5, cannot learn skills that a real Tier 5 can learn, has half of the breeding attempts of every other male horse in the -----ing game, has only a single inventory slot which is less than every other Tier 5 horse in the game, cannot be exchanged like every other horse in the game, cannot be sold like every other horse in the game, and breeds as if it were a Tier 3 horse at best. Seriously, this is my sticking point: If the more-expensive Conq horse was turned into -----ing falsely advertised garbage to prevent players from getting a 'head start' on breeding, then why wasn't the Explorer horse similarly gutted? I mean, hell, the Explorer horse is still being sold, and the real kicker is that horse is better than the one in the $100 package, because the horse in the $100 pack was falsely advertised as a "Tier 5 horse" when, per the developers themselves (and from Jouska's keyboard) the Conqueror horse was altered. If it was altered, it's not a Tier 5. Since the store page said Tier 5, that makes it false advertisement. It's logically impossible for something to be one thing but at the same time not. It is a Tier 5, or it isn't. Jouska confirmed that it isn't. It really is this simple: The store page said "Tier 5 Horse" with zero stipulation that it would be any different than a "Tier 5 Horse" acquired naturally in the game.The playerbase figured out that the Conq horse is different from every "Tier 5 Horse" acquired naturally in the game, and is, in many respects, worse.After weeks of silence, Jouska responds with, basically, "Yes, it's different. We aren't compensating you for it."There's nothing to argue or debate after that. DaumEU committed fraud. The store page listed a "Tier 5" horse. The official response is that it is different from a Tier 5 horse. If it's different from a Tier 5 horse, then it's not a Tier 5 horse. There's no logical or rational justification that can counter this, no matter how many white knights and trolls pile into the debate. If someone advertises X but then delivers "X.... but missing desirable features Y and Z but also adding in unwanted features A and B... for your convenience" then they didn't sell X -- they did not sell the thing that they advertised. And, finally, once again, the thing that boggles my mind more than anything else about this fiasco is that only the Conqueror horse was 'adjusted' in this way. The horse in a package half the price is a 100% legitimate, normal horse. $100 per-order customers got a worse horse than people that pre-ordered (or buy the game today) for $50. Mind = blown.
Yep, this here is the crux of my problem. DaumEU is, apparently, in no way obligated to give us what they advertised and sold. This means I won't be spending another cent on the game, because anything I might want to buy now or in the future could be undelivered, unfulfilled, inaccurate, or reduced in quantity or quality from the item I agreed to purchase. DaumEU just demonstrated they no longer give a shit once they have the money for the product, even if they fail to deliver that product in a manner that matches the form and function agreed upon at the time of transaction. If I can't trust the DaumEU's store pages to accurately and sufficiently represent the product I'm purchasing, then there's no point in my purchasing anything from them ever again, even though I do enjoy the game and would normally be amenable to additional support of the devs.
No, we got a custom-made dumpsterhorse labeled "Tier 5" and an insignificant amount of HP added to it in exchange for multiple deficiencies compared to not only every other horse in the game but also the other horse in the other pre-order package. What bothers me more than anything about this is that it was only the $100 Conqueror package that got -----ed like this. The Tier 3 horse in the $50 Explorer's package is, in every way, functionally and mathematically similar to any Tier 3 horse available in the game. The so-called "Tier 5" horse in the Conq version is wholly unique -- there is no other horse that exists in the game, true Tier 5 or otherwise, that has a hodgepodge of math and performance discrepancies like this one. This "Tier 5" horse was 'artificially created' solely for the purpose of being put into the Conqeror package... so if it's not a real Tier 5, why was it advertised as one? Why wasn't it called a "Conqueror's Horse" and why is it functionally worse than the Tier 3 horse included in the cheaper package? There's no rational, reasonable explanation for this. DaumEU humped their most expensive pre-order customers, then after over a month of complaints finally responded with "We know we did, too bad, enjoy your extra smidgen of HP." Jouska's screenshots actually make the issue worse because holy crap I had no idea that a real horse literally has 50% more stamina on top of all the bullshit we already knew about.
Just not when it comes to breeding... And not when it comes to stamina. Or inventory space. Or potential to be exchanged. Or potential to be sold. So it's not technically a Tier 5 except for the bullshit labeling and a pittance of extra HP. The more I think about this, the more it upsets me. I want to give DaumEU money because there are things I want and I generally enjoy the game, but if this is how they're going to conduct business I just can't keep paying them. What if I buy a horse costume but it's missing the barding? Oh well, you paid for it, we didn't deliver, too bad. What if I buy a breeding reset and use it but it doesn't actually work? Oh well, you paid for it, we didn't deliver, too bad. This response shows that DaumEU is in no way obligated to give us what they are advertising and what we are agreeing to buy, and, as their customers, we have exactly zero recourse for when they decide to ----- us by giving an inferior product than the one we purchased.
So, the pre-order horse has: 916 more HP1.8% more Accel9.2% more Turn9.8% more BrakeA nebulous 'increased chance' to learn skillsA real Tier 5 horse has: 5022 more Stamina (HOLY CRAP, nearly 50% more!)45 more Weight0.5% more Speed1 more BreedableACTUALLY BREEDS AS A DAMN TIER 5.At least 1 more inventory slot.Able to be Exchanged.Able to be sold on the Market.Take my falsely advertised garbage horse back and give me a real T5 horse, or at least give us breeding resets to use on real horses, or I'm done with the game. This is bullcrap and absolutely not a justification for the scam DaumEU perpetuated on all Conqueror package purchasers. The stam difference alone between a real T5 and the fake thing that we were sold is enough of a discrepancy for there to be a problem. Or take back my Conqueror armor from my alt, and give me $25 worth of pearls. Or give me the Explorer Edition's horse, because it's actually better than the one in the Conqueror package. Two weeks to have the stones to suggest that the Pre-Order horse is better than a real one and use those screengrabs as evidence... I... I don't even. My mind is blown right now. WHY DOES THE PRE-ORDER HORSE ONLY HAVE A SINGLE BREEDING ATTEMPT? WHY DOES IT BREED AS IF IT WERE A T2 OR T3 HORSE? WHY IS IT INELIGIBLE FOR THE 'EXCHANGE' OR 'MARKET' OPTIONS AT THE STABLE? I appreciate that you finally got back to us, but this really doesn't answer many of our initial and primary concerns. Follow-up questions: Why do the developers have the final say in this? Is there a reason why the publisher, DaumEU, can't say "Oh, yeah, sorry, we kind of dicked you on the horse, there, and we can't get the developers to fix the horse, but we can give you some pearls/breeding resets/something from the store" as an apology or compensation? Another question: WHY IS THE TIER 3 HORSE IN THE EXPLORER'S PACKAGE A LEGITIMATE, NORMAL TIER 3 HORSE WITH FULL BREEDING AND EXCHANGE POTENTIAL AND OPPORTUNITY? WHY WAS ONLY THE CONQUEROR HORSE SCREWED LIKE THIS? I swear I wasn't this angry when the whole debacle began, but this is becoming a farce. Nothing we were just told lines up or makes any sense. Explorer Edition is a real Tier 3, Conqueror Edition is a fake Tier 5 with "better stats" that are objectively significantly worse in many respects, the devs refuse to fix it so the publisher's hands are completely tied?
Man, you're thick. On day 1, who was going to know that the "Tier 5" horse had stats similar to a T3, bred as a T2 or T3, and couldn't be exchanged? Yes, the one inventory slot and the one breeding attempt could be red flags, but even those would require time to validate in-game. (As in, people had to catch horses and realize that single-slotters and males with only a single breeding attempt didn't exist.) It took weeks of leveling, breeding, and comparing results for the playerbase to determine that we were scammed. And, once again, the "Tier 3" included in the explorer's package is a fully legitimate Tier 3, so any argument against "GIVE US WHAT WE PAID FOR AND WHAT YOU CLEARLY ADVERTISED" is destroyed. There's zero explanation as to why the "Tier 3" would be a real Tier 3 and yet the "Tier 5" is mathematically and functionally worse than the Tier 3; Either both horses should be gimped crap, or both of them should be "real" horses of the appropriate tier, not one crap (hilariously and sadly, the more expensive one) and one good one. Saying "You get X when you purchase this package" and not giving X, but rather getting something inferior to something in a cheaper package that was labeled as an inferior product is the textbook definition of false advertisement. By putting a label on the horse as a "Tier 5" and then not detailing anywhere that it would be worse than the "Tier 3" horse included in the Explorer package, they committed fraud. You can't label something as a superior product when it is, in fact, worse than a cheaper one. Back to what I've said before: If you order a 20oz. steak off the menu in a restaurant, which is twice the price of a 16oz. steak, but then the server brings out a 12oz. steak on a fancier plate than the 16oz then you shouldn't be expected to pay full price for that steak, or the restaurant should take it back and then bring out the thing you saw in their product listing and agreed to pay for. I absolutely cared what the difference between the horse tiers in the package were. It was the deciding factor in my purchase. Don't presume you know how or why people spend their own money. The armor set that came with the Conq went to an alt -- I knew it was going to an alt, as I main Wizard and hedgehog plate isn't how I wanted my wizard to look. Skipping the armor wouldn't break me. I could have lived without the extra two-day head start -- I was the only person in my small clique that went in for $100, so I wasn't going to be able to play with my friends anyway. All the other stuff is incidental such as extra skill coupons, furniture, and other stuff I could live without and/or make myself eventually. What appealed to me most about the game was the idea of raising and breeding horses, and trading. Those were things that I never really got to do in a game before, and I was excited to dive into that. The difference between a Tier 5 and a Tier 3 horse seemed sufficient enough that I was willing to pull the trigger on the Conq package. Yes, the other perks weren't bad, but there is no way I would have purchased it if DaumEU hadn't falsely advertised that so-called "Tier 5" horse, and instead said "Conqueror Horse -- worse than the horse in the package half the price" on the list of included items. That would have been my lock on an Explorer purchase. But, instead, I was defrauded by DaumEU. I also don't care how much time I spent on the game, or what horses I have now (for what it's worth, I've had awful luck breaking into T6, and I'm stuck with a ton of T5 males with no breeding partners) because the simple fact of the matter is DaumEU advertised a "Tier 5" horse as part of the conqueror package, and yet the players found out that the horse is a watered down, reskinned version of a Tier 3 horse, which is, in nearly every respect, actually worse than the advertised "Tier 3" horse included in a package that cost half the price. In other words, two of them to be exact: FALSE ADVERTISEMENT. I have a bridge to sell you. I can link a picture of it in a new post, so you can see that it's real. Don't be mad when all you get in the mail is a photo of the bridge after I've got your money, k? Honestly, you aren't even worth replying to, and it would be better off for every person on this forum to ignore your account, but you're giving out free bumps to this thread and thus increasing the visibility, which is the only justification for wasting more text on you.
Musa is a male melee class that's fast and capable of doing good damage right out of the gate, which makes it the only such thing in the game right now. I'm enjoying mine; Warrior feels OKAY damage-wise, but it isn't exactly fast, and low level Berserkers might as well just try talking things to death instead of using 90% of their skills. Musa is quick, responsive, and hits hard.
I'm astounded at the lack of concern or effort being put into this matter. DaumEU committed fraud against every player that bought the Conqueror edition and can't even be bothered to comment on it beyond the "Checking this out" post that's nearly 2 weeks old at this point. Absolutely pathetic. Guess I can take the money I was going to invest in breeding resets, a horse outfit, and the eventual Ninja costume I was going to buy and just funnel all that cash into a different game that better respects me as a customer. I was swindled out of $50 because I would not have bought the Conqueror edition if the so-called "Tier 5" horse was honestly and accurately advertised, and I'll not spend good money after bad on this game.
It's the textbook definition of false advertisement. There was no indication or information given that the horse would be deficient in any respect. It's even worse because the "Tier 3" horse in the Explorer package is a 100% normal Tier 3 horse, which actually makes it better than the so-called "Tier 5" included in the Conqueror package. At the very least they could have given us a re-skinned Tier 3, hell could have even called it a "Unique T3" but at least made it as good as the horse in the package that was half the price. It's fraud at the simplest, most basic level. What if you bought an outfit "package" from the store but only received the helm, gloves, and boots, but didn't get the body armor, even though there was every indication that the body armor would be included in the package? If it just happened to you, it's a bug and a problem, but if it happened to everyone, that's working as intended and fair? Technically, everyone got an outfit package, so DaumEU fulfilled their end of the exchange. I mean, gloves and boots and a hat are nice to have, so what's the point in getting what you agreed to pay for, right? How about if you go into a restaurant. Your buddy happens to be in there, at his own table, and eating. His meal looks great, so you ask what he has. He tells you it's a 16oz. steak dinner. Based on what he has, you order a more-expensive 20oz. steak dinner from the menu. When the server brings out your meal, it's 12oz. steak on a fancier plate. No right to complain, right?
Because the characters in this case are actually Korean, versus all the pre-existing ones (except maybe Tamer) that are much more European/FantasyEuro in appearance and fighting style. You might as well start asking for Ninja to be renamed "Knifer" and Kunoichi to be renamed "Cherry" if Musa and Maehwa bother you that much.
So, if this can go in the store, there's no reason for the so-called "Tier 5 Horse" that was falsely advertised with the Conqueror's pre-order package to be as useless as it is... The "Tier 5 Horse" can only be bred once, breeds as if it were a Tier 2 or a Tier 3, only has a single inventory slot, and is ineligible for exchange or market. The only presumed reason for screwing over your most-invested pre-order customers was to not sell a 'leg-up' when it came to horse breeding, but that can't explain why the Tier 3 Horse in the Explorer package is a legitimate Tier 3 Horse will all proper features, functions, and stats, and yet the Conq horse is garbage. Now, if you're going to sell a costume that increases horse leveling rates by a massive 20%, the last possible excuse DaumEU had for gimping the $100 package horse has officially gone out the window. Fix the damn Tier 5 Horse that was falsely advertised in the Conqueror edition of the game. CM_Jouska was "checking this out" over a week and a half ago and has provided no update since then.
It was mentioned precisely nowhere at the time of transaction that the "Tier 5 Horse" included in the Conqueror's edition is actually a "Tier 5 Horse*" with a note that the horse would have fewer breeding attempts than a real T5, breed as if it were a Tier 2 or a Tier 3, have fewer inventory slots than literally every other horse in the game, be completely ineligible for 'exchange' or for selling on the market, and arguably have worse statistical performance than a horse 1-2 tiers lower than it. To make matters worse (for Conqueror pack purchasers) the Tier 3 horse included in the Explorer edition is a legitimate, fully-functional Tier 3 horse. It isn't short-shrift in any way, and functions 100% as a normal Tier 3 horse, which includes breeding opportunities, breeding results, exchange/selling opportunities, inventory size, and statistical performance. In other words, the "Tier 3 Horse" included in the $50 version of the game is, in almost every way (and in every way that matters to a long-term player) better than the "Tier 5 Horse" included in the pre-order exclusive $100 version of the game, and nowhere was this discrepancy stated or even hinted at by Daum until they already had our money and breeders started seeing the stunted results from breeding attempts with the so-called "Tier 5" horse. It would be upsetting if both packages received a defective horse, but at least somewhat 'fair' and 'logical' (and still false advertisement) but it's so much worse since one horse is fine and the more expensive one is trash. Absolute, uttter trash. The best thing for any player to do with their "Tier 5 Horse" from the Conq edition is delete it or abandon it in an out-of-the-way stable and never bother to use it.
At this rate, I'm just hoping maybe something turns up in the patch tomorrow. I know it's EXTREMELY unlikely, but since we haven't heard jack-all for over a week of "checking this out" I'm just going to cross my fingers for a silent fix popping up. It probably won't be anything that requires additional code, since the turnaround on that from PA would be slow, but maybe just some breeding reset coupons or something else from the store. I could settle for that -- as long as it was at least 2-3 reset coupons (or more) and not merely a single one.