• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

irrelevant

Members
  • Content count

    2,158
  • Joined

  • Last visited


Everything posted by irrelevant

  1. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    that's exactly how it works
     
    you don't even know your own class and you have the audacity to argue on the forum, i don't get it? 
     
    this is the most descriptive post i guess 
     
    You valk people don't even believe VIDEO PROOF only because you're incapable of replicating the results (which for the record is because you're not experienced enough at bdo, contrary to your belief). 
     
    Valk lingering SA works exactly the same way as warrior one does 
    • 0
  2. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    I understand plenty
     
    I bet i've also done more arena than you have and at the same time i have better rbf score. This game isn't 1v1 and 1v1 is irrelevant and your arena training is irrelevant 
     
    also 1v1 is easy and i consider it autowin so i don't even bother, i rather go rbf and play 1v5 cus its better practice and it teaches me more than 1v1 would 
    • 0
  3. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    it will teach you how to behave and play in mass pvp environment and stand your ground by yourself and the limits of your offensive and defensive capabilities against the most geared players
     
    you have to be extremely deluded if you think doing rbf doesn't help you get better at pvp but then again our guilds have fought each other in node wars and the result was obvious, for a reason
     
    the "rbf junkies" were going around with 10:1 kda against your guild 
    • 0
  4. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    Because i could use that score as a proof that you've experienced the game
     
    and yes, if my rbf score is higher than yours then my argument is more credible than yours? This is just common sense, is it not? 

    if someone is exposed to more experience then he's more credible, simple as that. If you forced yourself to experience the game and it's pvp you'd find out so many new things and mechanics that you didn't know about before and your perspective of things would change 
    • 1
  5. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    if you had 20k rbf score as i kept asking everyone to , you would know how to make the lingering SA on block work
     
    For some reason every valk i've ever seen just automatically assumes that they are max skill and the only thing holding them back is their gear and their class. I don't know but valk players in general are probably the most arrogant player base, which is why they keep asking for buffs when their class is S tier and when they don't even understand the game and its mechanics fully 
    if you're a valk with under 20k rbf score you simply haven't played the game enough and you're not qualified to talk about balance

    Imagine watching an episode of Dr. House and then going in real life to a hospital and telling to surgeons how to do their job because you think you're qualified to because you saw an episode, thats literally what valk players are like.
     
    go experience the game and only then you'll have credibility about this game's pvp 
    yes its true that in gvg and siege wars it becomes an fps game but you know what else is true?
    kuno, tamer ,ranger ,ninja, blader and maehwa suffer way more from low fps cause they are 5 times squishier (10 if ur tamer) than valkyre and require more precision to perform and have smaller hitboxes and are much harder and more unsafe to play
     
    • 1
  6. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    translation: "I have absolutely no pvp experience"
     
    also nice trying to show off with your guild, what your guild has achieved is not on you. And what your guild has achieved isn't even great. Lmao
     
    i hope lying in the forum is against the rules and you get what you deserve 
     
     

    plus there's obviously a valkyre in the OP that helped for the tests, does he also not play a valk? 
    • 0
  7. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    it's literally shown in videos in the first post
     
    how can you type with such arrogance and confidence IT'S LITERALLY THERE TO SEE 
     
    https://my.mixtape.moe/unvkic.webm
    https://my.mixtape.moe/ivzrnu.webm
    https://my.mixtape.moe/gidngw.webm

    HOW IS THIS NOT LINGERING SA???? 
    valkyre in my guild is facepalming right now and crying that people like you play his class 
     
    if you think valkyre is slow wait until you play another class, most of the classes channel a single skill 2 times slower than valk does 50% +of your hp with hastistuff 
     
    wait, whats your rbf score and pvp experience again? 
    • 0
  8. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    geared valk can 1shot me with the fall damage alone with the ult (321 dp tet armors 61 lvl) and the 3 pulses before the fall do same damage as the fall damage itself
     
    and with stacked cast speed u can channel the entire ult while ur enemy is cced and unable to move
     
    it does more damage than witch/wiz ult
     
    and lol at thinking tamer does even remotely close to this damage with 180 ap without using grab
    • 0
  9. irrelevant added a post in a topic Tamer's Resent Class Changes in KR   

    the hp passive is a joke cause other classes have 300+ more hp without any hp passive
     
    how the hell does that even happen? If we have passive to gain extra hp, why do we still have lower hp? My dk has 150-200 more hp than my tamer, and dk's dont have hp passive
     
    feels like some mockery to me 
    • 2
  10. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    so its op
     
    the heal is just a bonus function of a normal/good skill and in mass pvp you'll definitely land it on allies
    false
    you can make non-protected skills be protected with your lingering SA, such as celestial spear and SoJ even pre-awaken era which i noticed myself more than 8 months ago before awakening weapon was even released
    you have SA when you block
    valk can outrun half of the classes in the game
    in "arena setting"? rbf is arena and the way node war/siege pvp is structured the current battlefield is even smaller than rbf, walls being your zerg/teammates to which you can always get 
    they don't cancel each other out that's first
    second, vangertz gives more DR than say nouver would so you can still argue that the warrior is defensive cause most warrs just go full glass canno
    3rd, tamer with the same gear as valkyre literally does two times less damage and is also slower. A tamer with tri gear won't 1combo the warrior without grab (cause the valk didn't use grab which is literally extending ur combo so basically tri valk kills with HALF A COMBO. LMAO.) Tri geared tamer wont 1combo warrior unless he does super extended stun combo which is possible but it's literally 10 sec long if you go that route and the standard combo wont be enough to kill without grab
    pre-grab = 50% combo
    post grab = 100% combo
    so valk kills with 50% combo while most classes (ninja,tamer,etc actual assassins) need to grab with the same gear and the only way they kill without grab is when they're buff stacked with tet or more gear 
     
    yes we saw the video how slow valk is
    only he 2shots pila ku mobs like it's nothing, lol

    it's better than more than half of the classes in the game 
     
    • 1
  11. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    valkyre not knowing their class ? nothing new 
    it's all over the forum 
     
    that's why i said get 20k rbf score then talk 
    • 0
  12. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valkyrie propaganda debunked.   

    finally all the valkyre peasants spamming propaganda and bs on the forum can see for themselves how broken this class is with the videos provided there
     
    also all the valks that were flaming me when i said your class has lingering SA - here's your proof 

     
    sovereign leader renown valkyre saying his class doesn't have lingering sa
     
    http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/137935-valks-degraded-to-life-skill-class-for-real-this-time/&do=findComment&comment=1910989 
     
    random valkyre typing in super confident manner saying he has no lingering sa when it literally takes 1 minute to prove it in game 
    @nyn idc @Luminosity
     
    so lets get this straight
     
    valkyre is one of the fastest classes in bdo - it's definitely faster than my tamer and i can't catch valkyres when im 5 speed tamer
    valkyre does 2 times more damage than tamer - proven on the video and it also has much faster attack animations than tamer does
    valkyre is 3 times tankier than tamer - common sense
    valkyre has unique mechanics that defy the physics of the game (the pull works even against superarmor and it kds people that are blocking as it hits them in back, lol) 
    valkyre has lingering SA which means it can protect ANY of its skills on demand and that it's also barely affected by desync unlike other classes (if you think desync is bad and you're a valk /warrior with lingering sa then imagine how incredibly horrible it is for other classes in bdo)
    valkyre's ultimate does 3 times more damage than warrior one and is probably the highest damage ult in the entire game (even higher than wizard) 
     
    so let me get this straight, a class that does more damage than me while being tankier and moving faster and having better unique mechanics and being desync proof is nonstop crying on the forum that their class is weak and a life-skiller class and at the same time saying that tamer is op - haha - hahah next level insane hypocrisy all debunked right here in this thread, so much for your propaganda
     
    what a sad game we live in, a game in which a tank class does more/faster damage than an assassin class and then has the audacity to go on the forum and say they're weak and demand buffs while some other poor classes are being neglected and ignored for months since the game was released and are forced to endure never ending pain in game and then when you go on the forum instead of finding hope that people are crusading against this injustice and trying to wake up the community - you end up finding that people say your class is op and the actually op classes are weak and they want even more power to them instead of learning how to play
     
    oh and before any valkyre wants to argue with me, first get 20k rbf score to prove your experience in the pvp scene of the game and to show 
    if your rbf score is below 20k then the chances are that you havent even remotely come close to mastering your class and that means you're not qualified to talk about balance and if your class needs buffs or not
    (it actually needs nerfs) 
     
    • 12
  13. irrelevant added a post in a topic Do you think Shais will ever be playable?   

    hopefully not
     
    tamers are already the best lolies possible in a game 
    • 0
  14. irrelevant added a post in a topic tamers fair in general pvp(aka pretty good) due to PA's graph.   

    sick joke
     
    in the entire european region, out of end game/tet/high end pvp players/ 60/61 lvl pvp tamers there's merely a single tamer that hasn't rerolled (and it's not me, since im waiting for dk) and that guy may just also have an alt that we don't know about 
     
    you also don't even remotely comprehend my "theory". First of all, it's not a theory its common sense. The class itself weeded out the worse players at the beginning as harsh lands would weed out the weaker humans and after awhile the average skill of the class just becomes higher  because the expectations of people and the approach towards the class changes with time and as the meta evolves
     
    you've been asked numerous times to prove your credibility, which you obviously can't cause you're one of the biggest trolls on this forum and i still don't understand why the mods let you continuously post all the bs that you do and all the misinformation and spam . Until you do that, you shouldn't even address me or my posts in any way whatsoever.
     
    tamers have never had it bad? go do more than 20v20 pvp as tamer and tell me you don't have it bad when your skills simply stop working. Imagine this being medieval times and you raising your shield to block an arrow and then the arrow decides to fly around your shield and hit you in the back of your head, that's how it feels playing tamer. The class doesn't work. Skills don't work, the physics of the game don't work. Your so called defense stops working and this happens to tamer more than it does to others and is semi-designed, semi-desynced 
     
    Ranger has it much easier than tamer does, also this korean chart statistic doesn't mean absolutely shit at all. There are people that just throw their body in rbf to get a kill ,die, repeat. You think taking their KDA is a good representation of how strong the class is? Nice joke.

    so if there was a class that could oneshot you but also died in the process, it would have shit kda right? And then according to this horrible chart the class wouldnt be op cause its KDA is shit but this class can oneshot DK (which supposedly has the best kda) so this class > dk but your chart doesn't even show it
     
    also most tamers are on hwacha/elephant/flamethrower duty in sieges so no shit that their kda is better, you don't really get deaths when you're sitting inside a friggin siege weapon
     
     
    forums are filled with losers trying to preach how strong tamer is , but if you go in game meeting a tamer is like meeting a fairy. It's the least played class by end game people (along with kunoichi, not ninja cause theres 10 million of those), it's skills dont work, it's damage values are low , it's playstyle is limited and obvious cause it lacks amount of skills and options , its range is low, its defense is low, it's skills are slower compared to other classes  and those are all facts -not opinions, measurable and provable facts
     
    everyone that plays end game tamer wants to kill himself due to how shit tamers are (because they don't work, you get hit mid iframe/sa all the time) and everyone that doesn't play tamer is also nagging them how overpowered tamer is , just to add as mental damage cause the game apparently doesnt hurt them enough. Preach this bs all you want but in a month meeting a tamer will be even more rare than it is now because when dk awakening hits people are going to start rerolling. Right now probably a good decent chunk % of the tamer population is gonna reroll to DK cus they've had enough of playing this joke class
    not only it doesn't work, even if it did work you still wouldn't be able to do shit as tamer in sieges cause the fps is horrible and your hitboxes are horrible and you're insanely squishy
    meanwhile witch/wizard players go near a fort wall and start spamming 1,2,3 and get 50 kills through a wall while fully protected and while people can't even hit them back, their SA frames are much more reliable and they're much tankier than tamer, they do 3 times more dmg with 3 times bigger hitboxes
     
    i personally hope that dark knight is overpowered beyond reason because im gonna play one and if people are gonna accuse me of playing an overpowered class then at least let them be right, cause they do it anyway (for when i play tamer) but they do it when my class is utter crap, let's see whats gonna happen if my class isn't utter crap then?
    if dk is semi-fun and op, i'd reroll to it cause im sick of people nagging me how op tamer is when it's literally the most pathetic class i've seen in a game, i'll crush every single tamer with whatever awakened class i play because they are pathetic and because i know how to fight them after playing one for so long
     
    in the end, 99.9% of the players in bdo have a serious "git gud" issue and the funny part is that those 99.9% people think they are among the 0.01% but newsflash, you aren't
     
    it's easy to see who's proven himself and who hasnt once you play the game and people that run their big ass mouths and talk crap 24/7 on the forum that have barely even experienced the game (not max level, not max gear, not enough pvp experience) are a laughing stock   
     
    • 5
  15. irrelevant added a post in a topic EU Territory and Node War Chronicles   

    so whens sovereign teaming up with enemy to kick addicted out of valencia?

    dont you guys think its wrong to have 100 people get 3bil for free ? 
    • 0
  16. irrelevant added a post in a topic tamers fair in general pvp(aka pretty good) due to PA's graph.   

    this graph only takes a year or something of statistics 
     
    and the reason why tamers have better kda is because the worse / less dedicated players quit the class long before it and the only ones remaining are more hardcore (ON AVERAGE) than others 
     
    if they took statistics from the start of the game they'd be different .. plus lol kda when there's stuff like desync and pc specs and different groups of people interest and pure blackstones and dedication and skill and teamplay and what not 
    • 1
  17. irrelevant added a post in a topic Nerf Witch and Wizard   

    pretty much true
     
    all witch/wiz players i've seen play the class like shit  and don't abuse it as much as they can and don't understand other classes and their mentalities 
    • 0
  18. irrelevant added a post in a topic Nerf Witch and Wizard   

    tfw people with 250 dp and blue gear are talking about game balance with their sub 5000 rbf score
     
     
    this is pathetic, to all the people that i've seen in game (that are posting on the forum) u should just know that everyone who's reading your posts is laughing when associating them with your ig skill level 

    it has ? by who?
     
    i can think of barely a single tamer with tet gear that's somewhat pvp regular that hasn't rerolled or prepared a DK alt or attempted to reroll numerous times and i may even be wrong, i just don't know the guy enough
     
    yea
    tell me how in entire region there are no players of the most appealing to gamers class (since its underage girl) and there are thousands of players of other classes
     
    no really, enlighten me, show me tet / high end active pvp tamers in europe that arent on the verge of slitting their wrists and arent playing alts all day
     
    • 0
  19. irrelevant added a post in a topic Nerf Witch and Wizard   

    buffing other classes instead of nerfing op ones is dumb as hell
    it's basically a shit move to fool dumber players into thinking they're fine (witch/wiz main population) because they won't ever get nerfed..
     
    ..but what if they buff the magic resistance of everyone else? That's literally a nerf to witch/wiz. It's just bad wording to fool people and they shouldn't do it
     
    they should straight up nerf witch/wizard, nerf ranger dmg, nerf warr/valkyre SA block, buff tamer reliability 
     
    yes
    • 6
  20. irrelevant added a post in a topic Dulfy's livestream breakdown   

    breakdown:
     
    they have horrible measurements of what's good and what's bad
     
    judging classes by KDA without factoring in anything else and talking about top 200 highest ap and 200 highest dp when the best build in bdo is actually a hybrid between both ap and dp so it just goes to show how clueless they are... 
    • 0
  21. irrelevant added a post in a topic Confirmed Kuno and Ninja THE WEAKEST!!   

    guy with 250 dp talking about bdo balance, this is such a joke i want to cry
     
    bet you die in 2 normal skills by any normal active/high end player and you also do no damage while at it. Meanwhile ninjas on eu do 60-80% of 320+ dp people's hp (which are 50%+ tankier than you cus of how stats work) with a single skill (the one where they hit the groun and red stuff appears not charge one) but yes tell me how you know about bdo's pvp 
    there are no monster tamers in NA
    everyone i've seen so far had absolutely no clue whatsoever how to play the game, also there are no people that play the class. I only see the same few names and i also see how each and every one of them slowly rerolls or quits the game
     
    as for your ranger bs, it just shows you're missing the point. The majority of ranger's sword skills are medium range in comparison to tamer and that's what i meant. If you had bothered doing pvp you'd know why i say this, because you can't use frontal block skills as tamer in mass pvp since you're right inside your enemy which means you're gonna get hit in back by someone and these skills are almost not useable unless you're at the very edge of the fight 
    i'm not even gonna bother with responding to the rest of your crap 
    get 30k rbf score then talk to me, at least then i'll know you've done pvp 
     
    your posts reek of clueless and you're just spreading bs on a subject you're not qualified to talk about 
     
    that's like having a random average citizen going to a hospital and telling them how to do their job when he has absolutely no clue or experience what he's talking about and he's only seen a few tv shows about it 
     
     
    • 0
  22. irrelevant added a post in a topic second new class concept   

    looks intriguing to me 
    • 0
  23. irrelevant added a post in a topic Confirmed Kuno and Ninja THE WEAKEST!!   

    How are they averaged out if the worse players quit tamer by default and go play witch/wiz/warrior/ranger??????????

    Over time, the weakest players of the class just end up rerolling. Also averaged out of what exactly? Active players from last month? Players from the start of the game? how when where
     
    you don't know shit, don't pretend that you do
     
    I'm playing the class? I barely play the game since january, mostly got active around DK (playing DK) and despite having 9874389379878989 hours in my tamer i still don't wanna play it even tho i still like the concept. I don't wanna play it because it's broken and it doesn't work. You can do block > iframe/sa and it'll work 4 out of 5 times but not 100%. Which is dumb and stupid. I don't care what the reason for that is (be it desync or netcode or what not), fact is that it happens and it's beyond player control and they should adjust their game accordingly.
     
    And stop saying "tamer burst is incredible" 
    YOU DO NOT PLAY TAMER. 
    Tamer is literally one of the worst burst classes because the main damage skill, "ALLROUND SPINNER" has 2 second animation channel and under 6000% skill power, how the hell is that a good burst class? Literally every other class in the game can do damage faster
     
    My unawakened DK can kill people from CC faster than my tamer does simply because wheel of fortune (dk' non awakened skill) has more power than the strongest awakened tamer skill and also casts 2 times faster and applies more of its hits as air attacks (since it's faster) unlike tamer.  Every class i can think of has skills that apply huge pvp damage much faster than tamer does.
     
    but what can i expect from a guy with pri /blue gear that hasn't even experienced the game completely
    come back to me when ur 61, 20-30k+ rbf score, at least full tet gear, then at least i'll see that you've forced yourself to experience the game. You'll learn more than you think
     
    also stop talking to me, stop quoting me, stop stalking me in this forum, i'm quite tired of your bs and misinformation spam 
     
    what i'll admit is that tamer is really good at killing undergeared / noobs/ scrubs. You need just 4 sec cd (moonlight +vermillion) and they usually don't react to it either so it's pretty free kills which makes it easy to farm newer players than it is for some other classes. Yeah. Another way to rig the statistic, taking Kdas without factoring in the people participating in the pvp and their skill (on both sides, allies as well as enemies) 
     
    currently tamer is crap, i've given up awhile ago and i do get hopeful from time to time and try to play my tamer but every time i do im faced with the harsh reality which is that the class is broken and it's skills simply don't work. It doesn't matter what statistics say, it doesn't matter what random people with blue gear on the forum say, it doesn't matter what anyone says - the fact is that tamer is fully/pure melee class that's always in the heat of action which means its faced with the most skills thrown which means you' have to deal with more people which means more chance for someone to desync and cc you mid sa/iframe
     
    in a 10v10 scenario, when a tamer rushes it's likely that 7-8 people will throw attacks towards it and even if the tamer is good enough to iframe/SA all of these that's still 8x chance to get hit by a guy who sees the game 0.5 sec in the past and cc you in SA, and that combined with tamer's shitty design of partial/ inferior SA abilities and also lowest DR in the game and no passives just makes it a complete trainwreck
    now if you were a ranger (even awakened) or DK, your skills would be medium range and when you approach the 10v10 scenario, instead of having 7-8 people be able to throw skills at you, you'd only have 3-4, which is literally 2 times less. Tamer is fully and completely melee and even ranger's awakened skills are medium range in comparison.
    plus most other classes have properly designed abilities so they're much harder to hit mid sa/iframe 
    • 0
  24. irrelevant added a post in a topic Confirmed Kuno and Ninja THE WEAKEST!!   

    lol if they judge class balance by kda then we're all doomed
     
     
    who cares about skill and taking things like dedication in consideration anyway?

    the only reason why tamer has "good stats" is because the class is so incredibly shit that everyone but the most dedicated players quit and because its also a loli class attracting nolifers and autists who are on average more skilled than normies. Tamer is still teh biggest joke and weakest and shittiest class i've seen or played in a game because it's skills simply do not work in europe. You constantly get hit mid dodge/sa and the damage values on skills is too low in comparison to other classes
     
    I wonder if they take rbf stats in account too. So by that logic because im sitting on 56k rbf score that means tamer is op? sick joke, if i played any other class that'd be 2 times more because i wouldn't get tilted every 3 days and have near-quit experience due to how shit tamer is, nor would i attempt to reroll multiple times while at it
     
     
    and kuno isn't bad at all, kuno is one of the better classes and these people must be incredibly sad and deluded if they base their class balance off of random RBF data without taking skill or dedication in consideration
     
     
    Truth is i've been at my limit about taking how incredibly shitty and trash tamer is for a very long while now which is why i barely play it any more so i can say that i don't really care about their view and comprehension of things. What i do care is how incredibly wrong and shitty and inefficient their way of judging is. 
    • 1
  25. irrelevant added a post in a topic Valks degraded to life skill class for real this time.   

    What a horrible example.
     
    One proves experience and time, the other one doesn't prove anything
     
    that's exactly the point, if you grab engage you lose half of your combo potential and valk is still able to kill with that, while a DD class (such as tamer or kuno or ninja) can grab engage and not have enough damage to kill and the only way they kill is with another cc > then grab
    i don't care what you doubt or not, i've seen it happen 
    • 0