Back in the beginnings of BDO, dying caused exp loss no matter how you died, by PvP or PvE. This created potential for griefing, where stronger players would continually kill weaker players, making them lose exp and preventing their progression. A change was made so that PvP deaths would not cause you to lose exp. This was an important and needed change, but it created a new type of griefing: Karma bombing.
Now, karma bombing comes in 2 types:
You are grinding in a spot and someone comes to take it. They are stronger than you, but you try to keep your spot and let them kill you enough times so that their karma goes negative. I'll call this "Defensive Karma Bombing". This is a legitimate defense tactic and not griefing.You want a spot, and either you know the person grinding it is stronger or you remove gear to make yourself easier to kill, then proceed to annoy the other player until they kill you, dropping their karma. Eventually they reach their karma limit and are forced to either go negative and face the consequences, share the spot and drastically decrease their exp/income gain, or change spots/channels. I'll call this "Offensive Karma Bombing". This is a griefing tactic arguably worse than PKing because the repercussions of someone going negative karma for defending their spot not only includes exp loss on death, but also gems and equipment enchants.From here on out, when karma bombing is mentioned, it is referring to Offensive Karma Bombing. Defensive Karma Bombing will be addresses as such when mentioned.
As it stands now, Karma bombers are near invincible, but there are tactics to combating them:
Declare war on their guild. However, this does not work on guildless or guilds not ready for war, which make up 99% of karma bombers.Get friends/guild to come and kill the karma bomber to distribute the karma loss. This is only a delay tactic, because eventually everyone will run out of karma, and the bomber will win.Get the karma bomber to low hp and CC them near mobs, hoping to get them PvE killed. This can be effective, but is very difficult to do, especially for classes with few CC skills like Ranger.None of these tactics are preferable, and many do not work because you have no choice but to flag on players that are not a member of a guild you can declare war on. The balance is too far on the karma bomber's side. The idea of this thread is to bring people's minds together to find a solution to karma bombing.
Commonly Proposed Solutions
Searching the suggestions, I've found a lot of similar suggestions to fixing this issue, and many of them have glaring flaws.
Bring back old or implement a modified exp loss system - Not feasible. Lower level/weaker players will be left unprotected, and in the worst case scenario, a player could be PKed so much that they never make it from level 50 to 51, let alone the upper 50s. But they could just run, you ask? Gear is so high now that most attacks from a geared player are a 1-hit kill to weaker players.Make all guilds declarable for war again - Also not feasible. Many guilds are not interested in the PvP aspects of the game, and focus on PvE, life skills, or role play. Many are weak and need time to build their strength before warring other guilds or taking part in node wars. This also does nothing on guildless karma bombers.PvP rewards/leader-boards - Gives bragging rights for a high kill/death ratio or kill count or rewards items when killing someone, etc. This would be a fun mechanic for PvPers and PKers, but does not solve the problem of karma bombers. You will still go negative defending your spot and risk losing exp/gems/enhancements. Karma Bombers will still be invincible.Remove Open PvP or restrict PvP to GvG only - Sure there would be no karma bombing, because players can't kill the others to lose karma, but this defeats one of the major pulls of Black Desert, its open world PvP. If you don't want it, you are playing the wrong game.Harsher penalties for PvP/PK - Make the penalties greater, such as making karma loss equivalent to the positive karma of the player you killed, equipment drops upon death for negative karma, or other larger penalty. This is meant to deter players from flagging an killing another player at all. This is probably the worst idea out of all of them. This doesn't stop karma bombing by eliminating PKing, it would make karma bombers completely invincible. No one would be able to defend their right to a grind location. But murder should be punished, you say? Sure, but defending yourself or your grind spot shouldn't. And this is a game. Murder means nothing. It amazes me that people would even suggest this as a solution (and I have seen it plenty of times...).
I will begin by stating that my general position is that those who are stronger should have the advantage over weaker players, but not to the weaker player's permanent detriment. This is why I am against ideas like exp loss or losing money/items for killed players. But, a stronger player should be able to defend their grinding location and even force weaker players out of desired ones. I am one of those weaker players, so this applies to me as well.
A brief description of the ideas:
The Challenge System - Force-able duel where the loser cannot attack mobs within a proximity distance to the victor.Diminishing Karma Loss - The more you kill the same player within a period of time, the less karma you lose for killing them.The Challenge System
This idea was based off of a common way people who are above karma bombing use to fight for grind locations. They will ask the player at the location to duel for the grind spot, and the loser agrees to give up the spot. This method only works with respectable players who agree to the terms and follow through if they lose. The challenge system builds off of the dueling system already in place but is only available at select Danger and Connect nodes like Sausan Garrison, Kuit Island and Crescent Shrine, excluding World Boss nodes like Karanda's Ridge. It works similar to a duel, but with some differences:
Guilds at war with each other cannot challenge each other unless there is a member of an uninvolved guild in the recipient's party. Any challenge in progress when a war declaration is made may continue to completion. Members of the same guild may still challenge each other for practice/fun/internal fighting.Challenges are deactivated on node war/siege channels during node war/siege times.The challenge can be initiated by approaching the player, like a duel, or by typing "/challenge <name>". The mentioned player or player's party is then challenged. If no name is known (in the case of camouflage), the name can be excluded and the nearest player/party receives the challenge.Players with negative karma cannot issue challenges.In a party, only the party leader can challenge. The recipient may decline the challenge, but the challenger may force it when declined for a 10k karma hit for everyone in the party. No more karma is lost for attacking or killing the opponent during the challenge.A 10 second timer starts, and once finished, both sides become hostile (red) to the other and can attack freely.Players taking part in the challenge cannot be attacked by other players outside the challenge.If at any time no one attacks within an interval of 15 seconds (one side runs off), then the challenge is default canceled, karma refunded if applicable, and the challenge can be issued again if they return.Any player who does not attack and is not attacked by an opponent within an interval of 15 seconds is removed from the fight and cannot target or be targeted by those still in the fight, even with PvP mode activated. This prevents people from avoiding combat to prolong the fight.Any members of either party not within full exp distance of the party leader (the signal symbol in your party list must be fully green) are default removed from the fight and cannot target or be targeted by those still in the fight, even with PvP mode activated. This prevents members from running from the fight.Every participant has 1 life. Once killed, they are out of the challenge and cannot re-spawn (including revives) until one side has been wiped.Player deaths receive no penalty during the challenge, even if the death was PvE or the player had negative karma.Once a winner has been decided, everyone may choose to spawn at location(instant), node, or town. The losing side, including those who ran/were removed/were not present for the fight but still in the losing party, is penalized by their PvE damage being reduced to 0 for 10 minutes when within 50 meters of the victor party's leader (subject to change for balance). Regardless of spawn choice, no one on the losing side may issue a challenge to anyone from the victor party during the debuff period. Activating PvP is still available but they will lose karma according to PvP mechanics.Pros of The Challenge System:
It takes 60 forced challenges to reduce a perfect karma player to 0 karma, more if the player is victorious and can kill mobs before another challenge is needed. This practically eliminates karma bombing.Long party vs party fights for grind spots are spread out, giving the victors free grinding time before the other party can challenge them or attack mobs in that area again.Even when someone loses, they can grind in another location away from the victor.Greedy players taking rotations too large for their kill speed can still have their mobs killed because the victor my be too far away when the mobs respawn.It becomes more beneficial for losers to change grinding location than continue trying to take one from the victors, especially if the victors are much stronger.Losers receive no major losses other than being unable to kill the victor's mobs.Promotes team strategy and gives another party PvP option even if not used for grinding purposes.Only available in major grinding areas so PKers cannot abuse it to prevent karma loss when killing people wherever.Defending players get forewarning and time to prep instead of the challengers attacking at the recipient's most vulnerable moment.Cons of The Challenge System:
It eliminates defensive karma bombing, making it easier for stronger players to claim a grind spot from weaker players.Potential for players to issue challenges just to give people the PvE debuff, but forcing challenges without grinding or other activity will run out the challenger's karma. And, because the debuff is proximity based, it would be a waste of a player's time to challenge someone unless they wanted to stick around and clear the mobs in that specific area.Diminishing Karma Loss
The strength of karma bombing comes from the bomber being killed and returning fast enough that the defending player can't recover enough karma to keep killing the bomber. Diminishing karma loss changes the karma loss mechanic to decrease karma lost for kills against the same player within a time interval. The karma policy would change as follows:
The karma loss diminishes by 50% for each subsequent kill. Essentially, the first kill is -60k, then -30k, -15k, -7.5k, etc.The period for the diminishing karma loss is 15 minutes. Every time that same player is killed within that 15 minutes, the timer resets.If you do not kill that player again within that 15 minutes, the karma loss doubles (basically undoing the last 50% drop). The timer is then reset, and after another 15 it doubles again until either the karma loss returns to 60k (max) or the player is killed again, halving the karma loss once more.Once the timer is active, no more karma is lost for initial assault of the player within the time period.The diminishing loss works on the specific player killed only. When attacking another player, you will still receive the full karma loss, but then diminishing karma loss kicks in for that player as well.There is no limit to how many players are tracked by diminishing karma loss.500 is the minimum karma loss. Once this point is reached, karma loss will no longer diminish, but the timer will continue to be reset as long as you keep having to kill the player.Pros of Diminishing Karma Loss:
One player will only make you lose a maximum of 120k karma before hitting the minimum 500 karma lost per kill. This means that a player can fend off 2 karma bombers with little fear of going negative. More bombers can be handled if karma loss diminishes to 500 for each of them and your grind speed is more than sufficient to make up for it.Strength in numbers. It will be easier to defend a grinding spot as a group, even if there are multiple karma bombersIt will also be easier to claim a grind spot if you have a larger party than whomever is currently grinding in the area by further spreading out the karma loss from repeated kills.It will not make PKers more powerful because there usually is little rhyme or reason to who PKers target, and PKing is usually isolated incidents, where the same player is not targeted more than once.Cons of Diminishing Karma Loss:
Also eliminates defensive karma bombing for single players or small parties.If a player really wanted to, they could karma bomb once, stay away for 15 minutes, then karma bomb again so that each kill remains at 60k karma loss, but this would be a complete waste of time for the karma bomber. It would be better for them to change channels or find a different location that waste that time trying to make each of their deaths count for full karma loss.
Raise the Karma Cap (TRNFloyd)
Increase the positive karma cap to 1 million to match the negative karma's 1 million floor.
Pros of Increased Karma Cap:
Players can fend off karma bombers longer with hopes of them giving up eventually.Cons of Increased Karma Cap:
It would only delay the negative karma. Karma bombers who are persistent would still be able to run people out of karma.It empowers PKers, enabling them to kill more people without fear of going negative.Karma Potions (TRNFloyd, with additions by me)
Craftable or buyable karma potions that replenish karma. They would work similar to energy potions by taking some of your karma and turning into a potion of smaller value:
You must have positive karma to make a potion.You cannot make a potion that would drop you to negative karma in the process.100k karma will make a 10k karma recovery potion.200k karma will make a 25k karma recovery potion.300k karma will make a 60k karma recovery potion.The potions would have a couple second cooldown to prevent accidental double tapping and wasting of potions when not needed.Karma Potions are family bound. It's your own karma. It makes little sense to be able to sell it or buy karma from someone else.Pros of the Karma Potions:
Full positive karma can be converted into a potion than recovers the karma loss of killing 1 person (minus the assault loss), enabling you to kill the karma bomber once more.Small cooldown enables use of potions as fast as the karma bombers can return, or even help with multiple karma bombers.Good players who are always at positive karma can save their good karma for a rainy day. Diehard PKers who are constantly at low or negative karma will seldom be able to make or use these potions.Those who grind often will have the ability to make more potions due to their own karma recover from killing mobs. Essentially, those who grind more, can better defend their grind spots.Gives use for karma recover potions, pet abilities, and gems for players who would usually never need them to return from negative karma.essentially eliminates the karma ceiling, but at the cost of taking a lot of karma to store up a proportionally smaller amount of karma.Cons of Karma Potions:
Small boost to casual PKers, in that they can store positive karma as well to prevent them from going negative as fast or as often.This is still a delay tactic, as persistent karma bombers can still run you out of karma and potions given enough patience and time, but with enough of them stored up, it can be a deterrent.