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  1. .....calling this game p2w. But with these last changes, and the rapid turn up in p2w-esque items being churned out every week... It can no longer be denied. You make me sad Co.ckao
  2. the poll says it all
  3. I want to hear what you guys/girls think about the subject!  thanks glhf in-game
  4. First and most importantly, lets go over the definition of Pay to win or in short p2w/ptw: Simple one: Pay money to have an advantage in any type of way in the game. In depth: when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions, so for example, lets take the premium pack everyone is complaining about now. Let's look at what the premium pack provides: +16 storage, +16 inventory, Combat/Skill/Life/Horse XP +10%, distant node investment (Consumes 10 energy), weight limit +100LT, unlimited access to beauty salon and merv's palette, and the most controversial one: +30% marketplace collection or simple removed taxes = more silver per item sold at the auction house. Now, does the premium pack gives a certain advantage to the player? Yes. However, we're not here to constantly argue how the premium pack or any other cash shop item is going to ruin the game.
    Why did I make this thread?
    This thread purpose is to provide solutions that most of the people agree on instead of constantly arguing about how ''x'' is P2W and how ''x'' isn't P2W. This thread isn't  meant to find the ''perfect'' solution but the solution that people most agree on, therefore it'll provide an aspect that most of the people are happy with and agree on. In short, a better Black Desert Online experience. Also, you might wonder why do I say ''most'' instead of ''everyone'' It is because it'd be more complicated and longer to find a solution in which everyone agrees on and that solution is of course the ''perfect one'' which is hard to come up with. There is always someone who won't agree to something so lets prevent waste of time trying to find a solution that everyone agrees on.
    The most important part of this is to get as many people as possible involved whether you're a normal players, community manager or even developers( I heard developers do listen to players, so I encourage the developers or people that have somewhat the same authority to participate, plus you developers have also some ideas of your own you plan to make, why not share them and see the players opinion on such?)  Each post shall be judged by solution and analysis not because of the person's status(Developers, Community manager etc). The more people the more solutions, ideas, and the faster we will come up with a solution everyone will agree on. Please understand every single opinion matters, and please understand it takes effort and time to take out the best of this game or something else, so don't expect that we'll get a solution in no time and we will come up with the perfect solution(That of course depends on how this thread is treated). Also, how successful or useful this thread will be depend on you all. This thread could be ignored and wasted resulting the complaining to not come to an end and more people will leave. So, I ask you to take the best out of this thread and come up with the brightest idea. I also ask you to get as many people as possible, in game and in forum to here. 
    How's this going to work?
    Analysis & solution with the most votes:
    - To be updated(Updated every Sunday, thereby weekly.)
    There is no tl;dr, I find this is important  and necessary so you have to read it all(Also open all the spoilers) and DO NOT go off-topic. I hope you take the best out of this. If you feel that we can improve this thread(feedback) or if I miss anything crucial feel free to tell me, as long as we can make this better I have no objections. I also might make my own analysis & solution. This is just my idea, I hope it brings good outcomes to black desert NA and depending how this turn out I might make this thread not only P2W related but other complains such as RNG system and I could end up requesting to lock this thread if its being wasted. Thanks for reading. Greetings.
    Edit-1: If you're going to post solution make sure to include: An analysis how your solution will benefit the game, players and developers and what not, some example ( if your analysis isn't clear) + solution. You can also try to persuade people to get in your side. Whatever works for you but make sure to take this seriously.
    Edit-2: Here is a little example:
    Pets makes this game p2w because of ''x'' reasons. Therefore, I suggest to ( here goes the solution) because it''ll benefit the game, players and developer ''y'' ways and here are some examples how it can benefit us: x,y and z. You don't need to do exactly like that, but make sure that you have the stuff needed so people can upvote your post if they agree with it. feel free to make it as long as you want. 
     
  5. Hello all, 

    I've thought about making this post a long time now. It's regarding the cash shop and how it's lately been used to gate game mechanics behind P2W walls. 
     
    What's gone wrong?
    Today Daum Games applied a change to our servers that recently hit the KR servers; Duplicate furniture in your house will no longer give you any points.
    Essentially bringing a 30k point house full of Jukeboxes or paintings down to 1.5k points. Before this change, people that did not want to spend pearls on furniture were able to compete by using their silver on jukeboxes and paintings. Now, soon enough anyway, rank 1 houses will only be obtainable by spending at least as much money on pearls, as the guy currently holding rank 1 in that house. 
    Why does it matter?
    The houses are of limited space, meaning that the furniture with highest points will dominate, these items are only obtained via the pearl shop.
    Currently, with reasonably workers and dedication, you're able to earn around 1.5 to 3 billion silver with investment banking, per month. I'm not okay with this being gated behind the cashshop, I think this p2w wall is insanity.

    How to fix it?
    Either let us compete for rank 1 house with plain silver again, or let everyone access the investment banking. 


    What do you guys think?
  6. Post on It's all P2W now! in Off-Topic

    By Inurbane, posted
    Wait. You are telling me that a company like Dayum wants to make money? How dare a company want to do such a thing!
    Wait. They added slight conveniences to the game for a reasonable price? HOW DARE THEY!
    Wait. The game costs how much? 30$! HOW DARE THEY CHARGE ANYTHING ELSE!
    Wait. All of these people complaining about P2W have no actual valid arguments? SHOCKER!
    For the amount of people crying for nerfs instead of putting in work to get good against the class in question, you sure seem to have a problem with anything else that saves time! 
    GG I say! 
  7. I am interested if there is a GUILD skill reset Scroll or coupon?
    if so let me know where it might be in Loyalty or Pearl Shop 
  8. Value pack is Fair for a Premium Sub. 
    You can complain about it, but as it is - it's fair 
    *Except* for the marketplace tax. 
    Simply remove that part of it from it completely, and its fine. It's a 30 day item tha t you lose ALL benefits of - even mervs pallet - when it runs out. 
    It's only $15 and everyone gets a free one from pre-order/buying the game. (I'm not sure which, someone told me pre-orde ronly, someone else said form buying the game straight up.) 
    Idk, it's not that bad as just the value pack with what it gives. 
    But it is pretty bad for the marketplace stuff. 
  9. 1. Pets allow people to loot faster, get more silver faster than none payers, this is p2w
    2. Costumes allow people to level lifeskills faster, getting more silver faster than non payers, this is p2w
    3. Elion tears allow people to die without losing exp, letting them level faster, making them stronger, and allowing them to get silver faster, this is p2w
    4. Value pack allows people to lose less money from taxes, they get more silver faster than none payers, this is p2w
    5. Buying the more expensive packages than the base game starts the player off with more stuff, this is p2w
    6. Inventory and weight increases from the cash shop increase grinding efficiency, makes players get more silver faster, that's p2w
    7. Purely aesthetic costumes allow players to stare at their characters for longer periods of time without getting bored, increasing grinding time, those are p2w
    8. Payers who have better computers and internet service lag less and have fewer interruptions to game time, increasing gaming efficiency, that is p2w
    9. People who buy beds in real life can sleep better than those of us who use the cold floor, increasing productivity when they are awake, meaning more silver, ecent beds are p2w
    10. Big spenders who buy nutritious food increase their overall health, which contributes to gaming effectiveness, this is p2w.
    11. Wallet warriors who shell out extra money for enough water to shower regularly can keep their eyes open longer before succumbing to their own acidic body odour, this is p2w
     
    So if Daum could address these problems and make it so that everyone who plays BDO was forced to join some sort of commune where we all have the same computers, eat the same food, and have every last variable of our lives aside from BDO play time stamped out, I think BDO could be the truly competitive game that we all want. I mean it's true that all these advantages don't give strong gear or equipment themselves, only silver, which is obtainable by anyone from a variety of sources that don't require anymore paying then the base $30, but my definition of p2w differs from the conventional definition, whereby paying players received an exclusive, and unbeatable advantage that no amount of playing could overcome. No, my definition of p2w encompasses any and all advantages, regardless of how trivial or temporary, and I demand a game where the sole deciding factor of progress is how much I or how little you play.
    I look forward to the patch catering to my whims.
     
    Sincerely,
    One of the players least likely to give you money
     
  10. Post on Other MMORPGs to play in Off-Topic

    By Daemie, posted
    Hi all,
    Just wondering if anyone is playing any good MMORPGs out there since this boat is sinking fast. Unfortunate Daum is running a great game into the ground with so many broken features, terrible servers, and the new subscription patch.
    All that has really caught a little bit of my interest is Crowfall so far in my searches.
  11. Post on How to win vs p2w in General

    By Muphet, posted
    -- because this requires own topic and not just a message copied&pasted 432t877423 times.
    so HOW DO I WIN?
    this is simple. stop using marketplace. You don't buy things, value pack players won't earn more money, everything is back to times without VP.
    it's a lose/lose.
    wait, this topic title is misleading.
    oh well, there you go. don't feed trolls
  12. Hi. I am a KR player who once paid for the premium subscription. I defended against the community whining about ghillie suit, dye system and others as P2W. But Value Pack is different because it is a P2W mechanism. Anyone who claims otherwise is sadly mistaken. 
    This guide will teach you how to guaranteed profit with Value Pack via market domination. The strategy is simple, sell everything at a minimum price such that you will make a profit while non-subscription players will make a loss. The key is to sell things as quickly as possible. Ideally, you want to target low margin items and dominate that market. Is it fair? No. Will it make you filthy wealthy? Yes. 
    Lazy P2W Method: The easiest and most common way is via selling cash shop dyes. Buy dye, buy value pack and sell the dye. You will profit. In the future, you will be able to sell costumes, pets and premium furniture as well. Generally the Basic Dye, pets and costumes sell the quickest but has smaller profit margin per pearl. The profit margin for furniture is higher, but it usually takes longer to sell. Also make sure to renew your subscription on-time monthly or you'll kick yourself the day these items sell and your membership expired. 
    Now onto the actual guide, because the lazy method will drain your wallet very quickly. 
    What to Craft?
    Has it ever baffled you why there exists items like Noble Wagon that literally loses money to make with taxes? The answer is that the developer has always build in this mechanism for premium players (Value Pack player) to profit immensely, therefore sustaining the F2P model that's in KR. With the introduction of this P2W mechanism in NA/EU, whales everywhere rejoice! Here is a time tested way to make tons of money with little to no competition from your non-Premium brethren.  But it does take some time to set up and I will go into how. 
    The goal is simply to find items whose minimum value is slightly than the price of the raw material that goes into them. Combat Steel Barding is a common example of an item that makes minimal profit, quick turn around. Noble wagon is another example of an item that sells with larger profit margin, but cost more time to make. If you tend to be more active, make items like combat steel barding and sell at minimum price. This will drive your competition out of the market while still guaranteeing you profit and quick sales time. If you are more AFK player, then you want to focus on larger ticket items like Noble Wagon, it is a net-cash negative for normal player but still make a sizable profit for premium player. Here is an example with Noble Wagon: Note: VP = Value Pack; COGS = Cost of Goods Sold (sum of the raw material at market price)
    Noble WagonProfit Gain with VP: 721,320Profit Loss w/o VP: -178,680Market Price: 3,000,000COGS for subscriber: 2278680COGS for non-Member: 3,178,680 12 Sturdy Pine Plywood160,000 8 Brass Ingot8,495 10 Soft Hide5,000 20 Black Stone Powder1,536  4 Wagon Horse15,000Here is an example of an item that's barely profitable for non-members, but extremely profitable (with quick turnaround - 30 min) for members:
    Light Hide StirrupsProfit gain with VP:
    42,240Profit Gain w/o VP: 6,840Market Price: 118,000COGS for member: 75760COGS for non-members: 111,160 2 Steel9,177 2 Fine Tough Hide21,913 5 Black Stone Powder1,536 
    Other examples of these items are Yuria, off-hands daggers and talisman, reform stones, silver embroided clothes, and horse/wagon/boat gear. I will stay away from tools, fishing boats, and certain wagons (i.e. white wagon) where the profit margin is too large. Of course, you are still welcome to crash those market if you desire. You want to make sure to sell at minimum price because you want the quickest turnaround on your good. Lastly, make sure to split up your crafting empire into different town and expand those storage. Personally, the setup I had was using Calpheon for costumes (only high level one), Glish for tools, Heidel for gear, Altinova for weapon and armor. Once you expand the storage to the 192 maximum, you will be able to continuously produce items and minimize down time for AH listing. Crafting: $ to $$ depending on how much competition you face and turnaround time
    I don't want to Craft, how else can I make money?
    Rest assure, the premium membership is great for cooks and alchemist as well. Similar to crafting you want to offload consumable and bloods/elixir on the market at a minimum price as well. However, this is not as profitable in NA/EU because we are still gated by energy. In KR, it is common practice for players to buy an advance alchemy/cooking tool and AFK alchemy/cook and then send all the goods onto AH at minimum price. Again, you want to make sure to sell at minimum price because you want the quickest turnaround on your good. 
    Cooking: $ 
    A special note for alchemist, alchemy stone is where you what will make the majority of your wealth as a high tier stone can sell for hundreds of millions. I would make 4-5 alchemy stones and sell them at once. Therefore you should be making metal solvents, wood hardener with your energy. However, these stones tend to sell slowly so make sure to put them on the AH at the beginning of your Value Pack rotation. However, in doing so I have made 1Bil/week doing this (heavily RNG), and the premium membership will make a few hundred million per alchemy stone upgrade cycle.
    Alchemy: $$$$
    I am a Crafter/Cook/Alchemist and I don't want to pay a monthly subscription. How do I play?
    I'm sorry to tell you, shut down shop and go grind. Crafting is dead.  This is one reason why imperial crafting is consider the de-facto way for non-Premium players to make money in KR. You do have to be on every 3 hours and the quota fill up quickly around peak hours. However, there are are a few viable items, namely grunil, fishing boat and wagon (white wagon, merchant wagon). Even at the minimum price, you still get a tiny profit margin. But you will be competing with premium player and the turnaround time is long as there isn't as much demand for these wagon/competition. Do you hate the fact that you spent hours gathering and make 1/2 of the premium players? Well, reach in your wallet and pay. That's the beauty of this mechanism and what drove me to pay the membership in the first place. So honestly, just close down shop and pretend you can't craft in this game.  You'll be happier in the long run. 
     
    Here's some other nice post calculating the profit gain: 

     
     
    As a life skill player, I left KR to join NA/EU with the promise of a non-P2W game and better management. I am sad and disappointed by this recent development. But don't let my sadness prevent you from becoming filthy rich. Enjoy crashing the market and becoming the wealthy mogul you've always dreamed of becoming. 
  13. Given that no two people seem to define "P2W" the same way, I thought it might be useful for understanding what people really think if we were to stop talking about it in all-or-none terms and start talking about it in graded terms.
    Obviously, having the option to buy the value pack is more P2W than not having the option.
    Just as obviously, having the option to buy the value pack is less P2W than simply putting top gear up for sale in the cash shop.
    So I've made a scale from 1 to 7 and provided examples for each number rating, with 1 being most P2W and 7 being least P2W; please rate the value pack accordingly and feel free to provide some reasoning!
    Edited to tighten up the wording and make the poll more readable.
  14. Lets talk about this new Value Pack on the cash shop. It is essentially a subscription fee to gain extra benefits in game. To get a better understanding of these "bonuses", lets do a bit of analyzing  of what you get here:
     
     
    Cash Value:
    +16 general storage - $30?  +16 storage per territory = 600p. There are 5 territories.  600p x 5 = 3,000p = $30
    +16 inventory -   $15
    +100LT -  $10
    Merv's Palette - $10
    Unlimited beauty salon (a.k.a appearance change coupon 30 days) - $10
     
    Passive bonuses:
    Combat/skill/horse/life xp +10% (fair enough)
    Distant node investment (a little bit "OP" imo, but whatever...)
     
     
    So the total estimated value of the Pack is around $75 of with the extra passive benefits on top of that. Almost all of the above is already available on the shop, can be granted via loyalty points, or can be obtained somehow in-game. For $15 a month, it's quite the steal. Really generous of you Daum. Nothing too outlandish or...Er, wait. Except for this one:
    Marketplace Collection +30%
    This one I find problematic. If Daum wants to pass this game off as a Buy To Play game that is NOT Pay To Win, then this benefit cannot exist only as a perk in the Value Pack. My issue is not with the idea of a Value Pack itself, but is with JUST this particular perk.
     
    I'l make this short and sweet. The market tax in this game is Horrendous, almost to the point where I don't even want to sell half of my items in the marketplace and just horde them in my storage. The Market collection benefit effectively nullifies this tax by a significant amount (granted its NOT a complete market TAX reduction, there is a difference)
    All gear in this game is purchasable with Silver. You can spend real money for a significant reduction in tax fees from marketplace sales. To my knowledge, non-spenders cannot gain the same market advantage outside of the cash shop. Follow me yet? More Silver granted by paid benefits = more gear, better gear, faster. Now I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is leaving the "Pay For Convenience" category and is edging VERY close to the "Pay To Win" category. I'm not saying it is P2W, but its definitely the closest thing we've seen in my opinion.
    Most people wanted the game to go Buy To Play so we can keep significant paid advantages OUT of the cash shop. Having benefits like this is perfectly fine in most MMOs...because most MMOs are Free2play (and are shite). This is NOT a Free2Play game in our region, Therefore it should not carry the same cancerous business practices that unfortunately plagues those type of games (Because if it does, then what even is the point of B2P then, Daum? What was our initial investment for? Lets be honest here, the cash shop prices already looks like that of a freemium cash shop, So if we can't keep the shop modestly fair, then whats the point?)
    There has been a lot of talk about Pay To Win in the NA/EU version of Black Desert. And most of it was just 12 year old man-children (or children...)  spewing BS for the sake of crying about something in a game they may or may not like. Personally, I never thought small EXP bonuses or the gillie suit were remotely Pay To Win (especially in this game). However, this is the first time that I am ACTUALLY concerned about Pay To Win elements being introduced into the cash shop. That is why I am making this thread, in an attempt to stop this from becoming something that is acceptable, to prevent it from becoming something bigger than just dodging market taxes (Because thats what is is, lets be real here). To give a heads up to the Publishers and Developers that I don't think this particular Value Pack benefit is good for our version. 
     
    Please Daum, for our version, consider reducing the Marketplace Collection benefit (maybe to like 5%-15%), or remove it completely. At least have another way players can gain this benefit outside of the cash shop. It is questionably Pay To Win and it just doesn't look good for this game man
  15. Post on Reality Check in General

    By Grizabella, posted
    So I see that the value pack has many folks in an uproar and the inevitable QQing and comparisons to Trion have started. 
    I have a simple view that works for me. If I like PLAYING the game, I keep playing it. That's it. 
    I was in AA from just after launch and I quit playing that game because in my opinion they ruined Archery and I like playing ranged. Yes there were serious P2W elements that I did not like, but it was when the game ceased to be fun to play that I left it.
    So yes, the Value Pack is not what all of us wanted or expected, but how does it ruin playing the game?
    1. " But Griz- It means whales will dominate the game!" Really? and the big guilds and pro players don't do that now?
    2. "But Griz- It means the rich can just buy advantage and it demeans my pro level skillz" Really? I love it when I play a game the hard way and earn what I have and especially when I kill or outplay those who spent money to try to compete with me. Challenge accepted!
    3. "But Griz- they promised..." Really? They are a business and they have every right to make money. If they kill the cash cow through bad decisions the market will speak and they will lose out in the end, but as I said I don't see these changes hurting my enjoyment of playing the game.
    4. "But Griz- you suck and stop using facts and logic to try to calm us down." Really? Why aren't you in Cleveland?  
  16. In this message posted by Jouska on behalf of Pearl Abyss, PA worked very hard to state that the game was not pay to win. There are those of us who by the definition of Pay2win (paying for a blatant leg up in a game) used to defend PA/Daum stating that the game was not Pay2Win because of the trivial advantages realized by Pearl Shop items such as Costumes giving a minuscule advantage.  This caused angst and dissent among players..  Well folks Pearl Abyss has completely clarified this situation. 
    As of today, with the introduction of the subscription item (Value Pack 30 Days) into the (Pre)PAID version of Black Desert I can now confirm that:
    The game is now 100% without a doubt, Pay2Win.  
    Black Desert is official ArcheAge 2.0...gee thanks??? (who wants to be that??)
    - faith gone gee thanks
  17. Vu que personne ne QQ sur le franco mais qu'il y a déjà 100posts sur l'inter je me lance.
    On est présentement en train de se faire avoir sur notre version b2p "mais non ce sera pas comme la KR/RU"
    Alors ya le débat p2w ou pas de votre value pack mais ça perso c'est pas le plus important. Vous comprenez pas qu'on est en train d'avoir la même version que les autres f2p p2w de Russie et Corée. Déjà les dyes c'était louche, maintenant le value pack .... ils ont clairement décidé de nous mettre les mêmes versions.. sauf que wait j'ai payé le jeu ...
    Ensuite on aura les valk machin même si ils ont dit que non, les pets à l'hv etc... et tout ça dans de merveilleux patch pour bien faire passer la pillule. Je vois venir la maj awakening...
    Alors please DAUM...
    -----------
    EDIT JE VOUS AVAIS PREVENU
  18. 1 - market tax reduction = stupid
    You can buy and resell items to profit now.
    2- 10% exp gain + costume + pets with 12% exp + more exp scrolls from pearls = a big ----- you to everyone 
  19. Intro
    The cash shop... Where to start. Black Desert is, in it's Western incarnation, a buy to play game, however the cash shop still oozes the feeling that it's a free to play game. It has massive issues and creates a very conflicted feel to what the game actually tries to do. Thinking about it i realized that the only thing we got in return for the entry fee is some free customization options - Otherwise, nothing. Sure, some items aren't in our cash shop, but they are few and don't make up for the fact that a lot still remain which really shouldn't be there.
    Here i'm going to list every item, per category, which i feel should be changed (price or effect) or removed from the cash shop entirely, to bring the game to a level where i feel it's supposed to be as a buy to play title. With every item i will also obviously include my reasoning. 
    What i hope for - desperately - from Daum/Kakao EU is their reasoning for a) including the items as they are and b) their pricing on each point. I've gotten rather dissillussioned by the lack of communication from them regarding this matter, and i've started to wonder whether they actually control the prices at all. I also hope that they realize how many people are currently turned away from the game because of the current state of the cash shop.
    To the project manager: I realize, more than you know, that you are going by statistics and sales figures most of all. The game doesn't really matter to you. However, i implore you to consider the immeasurables, which so many inexperienced or inadequate managers seem to ignore. You don't get to see the number of people who don't buy the game, going on second hand information. They won't even visit blackdesertonline.com , so you can't actually measure that statistic, to name one of many. This game could be so much bigger if it found it's identity - In manager speak, brand management is incredibly important and if done well, will lead to higher revenue. Currently the brand is tarnished, and you may be underestimating the power of word of mouth advertisement.
    Lastly, a bad manager will see diminishing sales before long, and instead of increasing the quality of the product (the right way) he will lower the price (the bad way), going F2P in other words, as "he heard that it increases revenue" without actually knowing anything about the product he's selling and the market he's selling it in. This sounds very bitter, but is true nonetheless. 
    Now, back to the main event!
     
    The situation
    A cash shop on top of a game you already have to spend money on is a risky endeavour, whether it is a subscription or buy to play title. However, it is generally accepted that in the case of the latter, some kind of revenue needs to be generated to keep ongoing maintenance and development going. 
    The trick is to find the right balance not just to generate the right amount of revenue, but also to get new customers to walk through the front door. Currently, Black Desert is considered to have shot it's load at release, building on hype to frontload the sales and revenue. Whether this is due to orders from the Korean office or a belief that the game will not do well after it's release is anyone's guess, though i personally believe that at the very least it's a misinformed choice. The way the game is currently going, with development (and apparently, crucially, pricing) dicated by the F2P focused Korean office, BDO will not have a long life in the limelight in the west. to be frank, this is due to some extreme shortsightedness in both the Korean and European offices. Going back to manager speak: I'm almost 100% convinced that BDO, at the moment, is a product rather than the product for the company. 
    This lack of empathy for the game Kakao is selling is apparent in its financial reports. Most of them focus on mobile titles and development and seem to ignore BDO as a PC only title. There is a massive push for freemium and 'PC Bang' like development, which is a depressing development, as they are quite obviously missing the growth potential of the Western market. Given that PA has already stated BDO is coming to mobile devices, i wouldn't put it past them to implement quite a lot of freemium features in the PC version as well sooner rather than later. Think of paying pearls for instant worker completion, paying pearls for guaranteed enchant success, and other such things. I swear i've seen the former in the Korean version already, though i hope to be corrected on that.
    The market the EU/NA version of the game operates on works slightly differently. Korean F2P games are chewed up and spat out quite quickly. A shining example of how to do B2P right is Guild Wars 2. It steadily ranks as the second most profitable title for NCSoft, after the everlasting Lineage 1, in front of all the other F2P titles the publisher offers. I recently heard the comment for why this might be: Guild Wars 2 never necessitates a cash shop purchase. It always lets the game be the game, and offers the cash shop as a way to show support. This is a far cry from it's F2P offerings, where cash shop purchases are almost mandatory in order to progress in any sane manner, and where the sales are going down rather significantly. 
    It's easy to transpose this situation to BDO. The cash shop is an ever present monster, as it were, goading players into making purchases just to progress, almost bullying them into it. This is the situation which has to change, and this is the reason for my post.
    As Jonathan Burkhardt from MMOGrinder puts it: A cash shop should make you want to buy things, not need to. Games which adhere to this have lasted quite long indeed, with (manager speak incoming) revenue staying at a relatively constant level over time, and still enjoying great success. I look at games like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World and EVE Online, all having cash shops despite being subcription based or B2P and all still enjoying success to some degree, years after their release (for the record, TSW is doing fine, it's just Funcom's other projects which are crashing). Elder Scrolls Online, being a recent addition, is also enjoying a modicum of succes using this model (though its cash shop is debatable due to the mounts and designs on offer).
     
    The big hurdle
    So, where to start? First things first - The Daum cash to pearls conversion seems like a good place. And lets be honest, we all know the reasons for why it works like this. Firstly, it's a one on one copy from the Korean code, and secondly, because it makes refunds much less of a hassle for Kakao (they can refuse refunds because 'you already spend your Daum cash'). It's customer unfriendly to stay the least, not to mention an utterly illogical system. Lets go through the steps of buying anything from the cash shop:
    1) Buy Daum cash via the website, out of game.
    2) Refresh the cash ingame.
    3) Buy pearls in the cash shop.
    4) Open your inventory, open the pearl box.
    5) Buy the item you want from the cash shop.
    It's easy to see that this is overly complicated. Even before we get to the cash shop itself, it seems odd that when pushing people so readily to cash shop purchases, the process of making one is so convoluted. The following would make a lot more sense:
    1) Buy pearls via the website, and/or ingame.
    2) Buy the item in question.
    The option to cut out pearls entirely and simply add real prices to the items, letting people buy them directly ingame, should not be dismissed. These would lower the barrier quite a bit, increasing revenue, as people are not forced to buy at least €10,- worth of pearls in one go. This would have my own preference, as it also informs the customer of what the items actually cost. 
    Either way, this -has- to be changed. As a rule of thumb, any feature which leaves your customers scratching their heads upon first viewing needs to be reviewed thoroughly. 
    Refunds
    Something which needs a mention: If any of these changes actually make their way ingame, players who bought changed or removed items need to be compensated to some degree. GM apology buffs won't be enough, obviously. 
    Of course, this will lead to riots, by some minorities. Personally, i'd give them the old pearl value and let them buy new stuff, where applicable. Make the change as painless as possible, and under no circumstance let this situation be a reason or deterrent against making the changes!
    General Guidelines
    Now we get to a problem - How do you define what should and should not be sold in the cash shop? What exactly is a "convenience"? What is and isn't okay to sell through loyalties? All good questions.
    I would set this line first: Nothing in the cash shop should give bonusses which are otherwise unobtainable through ingame methods. It's an easy rule which informs the rest of what is available, also shifting the cash shop to necessary purchase for everyone to be, at best, a way to catch up to veterans who already have the ingame items.
    Otherwise, it's hard to really define in one line where the limits are. I'll go over them as i discuss every item.
     
    The Meat
     
    Function
    Here we come to the big ones right away! Oh joy. I'm sure you want to keep this category filled out with something, but the current items are not the way to do it. Almost all of them either interfere with ingame mechanics or completely sidestep them in the name of 'convenience'. The only untouched items are character slots and name changes, both of which are justified (and actually have decent prices).
    Inventory slots
    These can be classified as a convenience, however, they are currently too difficult to obtain ingame. The way the UI is structured also goads the player to buy more slots as soon as they log in. This was worse in the Korean version, where the player starts with only 16 slots, but despite upping the starter amount to 24 - It's not enough. 
    Before the prices can be discussed, i feel the amount of ingame obtainable slots needs to be increased to 40, rather than 31. This is for a simple reason: It gives the player the opportunity to gain inventory slots at a slightly increased pace, and also (most importantly) fills up the immediately visible UI space when maxed out (64 slots). Given the increased reliance on weight rather than slots at higher levels, more slots become a convenience item, as they should be.
    The price however remains a problem, to which there are two solutions.
    The first one is to make all inventory slot purchases apply to the family, not the character. This will provide the much needed value the purchase currently does not have. An added benefit is that levelling alts will be made significantly easier, as well as encouraged, since the inventory slot quests won't be as important anymore. More importantly, this can leave the prices as-is.
    The second one is to simply lower the prices. As slots are currently per character, the current prices are insanely high. Slashing them by 50% would be a good first start, and lowers the barrier of purchase significantly.
    Weight
    Simply put: Remove these completely from the cash shop AND loyalties. As weight is so important at higher levels, especially when grinding or even gathering and trading, these cash shop items are a mandatory purchase for most players. While this sounds as music to the ears of any manager, this does not mesh with the fact that BDO is a buy to play title, at all. This is exactly the kind of mechanic which is sorta-kinda fine for an F2P title, but not a B2P one, given its importance! These kind of items also diminish the good will players have for the game, and are a good source of negative word of mouth advertisement. And no, 'any publicity is good publicity' does not fly here, as it actively chases potential customers away from the game as a whole, not just the cash shop.
    In return, the weight limit gains need to be increased ingame. First, the weight limit at level 50 should go to 600. Strength levels need to give +5 per level up to 30, +3 up to 40 and +2 up to 50 (debetable, of course), for a total of +200 at level 50. Weight limit increases can also be handed out from (non-black spirit) quests, for instance, 1 quest in each region (Balenos, Serendia, Calpheon, Mediah and Valencia) which gives a +50 increase. Item weight increases (belts and crystals) can stay the same, though i would't mind seeing a slight increase in those as well.
    Storage slots
    Same here. Remove these from the game entirely, but for different reasons. While they are also conflicting with the B2P change (seriously, adding 8 slots 'as standard' is no excuse), they also make an entire game mechanic completely irrelevant. Why purchase storage with CP when you can just fork out the cash? This is another no-brainer, a 'freemiumism' which found it's way into a B2P game and needs to be deleted.
    Elion's tear
    No-brainer. Remove. Destroy. Another freemium-ism which made its way into a B2P title. It's a stopgap measure against the horrible field boss implementation and removes the risks of dying almost completely, compromising the entire gameplay and risk-reward balance. Not to mention that it's sneakily priced as such that it lures the customer into a 'just one more' cycle which adds nothing to the game. Another hidden statistic for managers: Items like these prevent more customers from buying the game as a whole.
    Black Spirit Essence
    This item should be an ingame obtainable item, or even craftable. This should in no way be a cash shop item, yet another freemium-ism which interferes with ingame systems and the ingame economy, as crystals can be re-used.
    Stable slots
    Again! Why have this contribution points mechanic, but then allow players to completely sidestep it? Same as storage slots - Remove. 
    In return, however, there need to be more horse ranch houses in each city. Calpheon especially has a pitifully low amount.
    Worker lodging
    Once more, a cash shop item which allows you to completely sidestep CP. Remove.
     
    Outfits/Costumes
    The big one for most, but after the Function items this one doesn't even come close. Still, changes need to be made.
    All items need a slight price drop to begin with, for a simple reason: Outfit sets cost almost as much as the entire game does to buy. How this hasn't been addressed even before release i don't know, but it needs to be changed. To the manager: When you make costumes twice as cheap, people will buy more of them. Not only that, but you will get more customers to buy the game outright AND have them buy costumes! It's a win win. The effect of cash shop prices on potential customers is seriously underestimated, and this is the category which matters the most outwardly, especially since ingame obtainable looks for your character can be counted on a hand with no fingers.
    A price drop of about 30-40% (complete costumes including weapons for 1900 pearls, underwear for 400, to name a few examples) makes them a far more enticing buy, with prices which can be much more easily justified by the average customer.
    Second, all stats need to be removed from all items. All of the offer a fairly significant bonus, which does not immediately give an advantage over other players without it, but does make costumes an almost mandatory buy for grinding after level 55. Due to this 'need' to buy one, combined with the high prices, its not just potential customers which are less inclined to 'buy into it'. Lowering prices and removing stats gives costumes their actual purpose back.
    This includes luck on underwear, by the way. 
     
    Furniture
    Same story as for outfits and costumes. The prices need to be lowered by quite a bit (50% is a good ballpark) to give them any proper value. Adding to that, all interior points on furniture need to be removed, or at least lowered to the level of the ingame obtainable furniture. Set bonusses need to be removed as well. This is because the interior points directly tie into the investment bank mechanic, which is only accessible when you have the most points in a specific house. Again, a cash shop item which directly interferes with an ingame mechanic.
    Any buffs the cash shop items bring also need to be reduced or removed along the same lines. Ingame obtainable items need to be on the same functional level, or even beyond that of cash shop items.
    With a 50% price drop, walls and floors can stay consumable, as they do carry a sense of permanence in a logical perspective.
     
    Mount
    As for the costumes, exactly the same goes for these as for the player costumes and outfits. There should not be any set bonusses, and any individual item bonusses should be at the same level, or below, of that of ingame obtainable items. Prices also need to go down by 30 to 40% following this.
    The real offenders in this category are, once again, the freemium items: The horse skill change coupon, horse breeding resets, mount resurrection reset and horse skill training coupon. All of these are currently unobtainable otherwise via ingame means, or even the loyalty shop, but due to the extreme reliance of RNG are almost necessary to use when breeding horses.
    The coupons and resets need to be removed entirely. The horse breeding activity desperately needs to be enhanced, there need to be ingame mechanics to reset breeding count (but not death count), as well as for skill training options. With horse racing on the horizon and this being a buy to play title, another option is, well, not an option. The travesty here is that the pearl purchases are displayed prominently in the stable UI - Again, giving the feeling that this is a freemium mobile title rather than a full fledged, buy to play PC MMO.
     
    Pet
    Very little complaints here. Remove the good feed. Lower the pet prices down to 750/850 pearls. However, there need to be more ingame events or methods to obtain pets - They are currently rather sparse, and despite the relatively small bonus pets give their presence is noticable either way. This changes the pets in the cash shop to convenience items, rather than mandatory purchases, for most, completely changing the way people will feel about them, especially considering the breeding mechanic.
     
    Beauty
    Oh, here comes my personal pet peeve.
    To lead this in: Dyes are currently twice as expensive, in real money, as they are in the F2P Korean version. Let that sink in for a bit.
    The prices in the Korean version are fine, considering they are more numerous and can be traded more easily. However, they are completely and utterly unacceptable in a B2P environment. We cannot sell them (aside from VERY rare and VERY specific exceptions), as well them being one-use items when some costume pieces alone can have up to 9 slots where to put colors in.
    From personal testing (yes, i have spent way, way too much money on dyes) i also found that about 50% of all dyes obtained from the unknown dye boxes are basic dyes, and about 30% from the colored dye boxes. This despite basic colors only compromising about 15% of the total palette! Given the rarity of the blacks on the marketplace (less than 100 non-basic blacks sold in total on Alustin) this is completely ridiculous.
    Prices need to go down in any case. If dyes are to remain single-use, they need to go down a lot. As in, 4 pearls for a single dye and 10 for a 3-dye box, maybe even cheaper. This is even before the drop chance of different dye groups are adjusted - Basic dyes should be the most plentiful, but not to this degree! Nothing screams "never spend money on me anymore" than opening 60 dye boxes, and after combining all the dyes and opening those boxes again, only finding a single Valencian or Mediahn dye along the way, which are conveniently bright pinks and greens as well. 
    If dyes become permanent unlocks, prices still need to go down. 20 for a single dye and 50 for a 3-dye box, at most.
    This also solves the problem of the marketplace - People will be far more willing to spend more on dyes if they actually have a decent chance of getting the one they want, which will also cause a decent supply to flow into the marketplace, lowering the prices to a sane amount without the need for external control.
    As a sidenote: The coupons are fine, though i wish there was a barber ingame to at least change hairstyles without needing to go for a cash option.
     
    Loyalties
    Last but not least, loyalties. Deciding what to do with these is hard, as they are kind of but not really cash shop items. 
    What bothers me personally about the prices is that they seem to be decided on the assumption that all items can be bought after a certain amount of time. With which i mean, the prices make sense that if you can, after 50 days, buy both the character slot coupon AND 5 inventory expansions.
    Still, loyalties have their place, and most items do feel like a genuine reward for playing the game, rather than a mandatory cash shop purchase.
    Storage slots, weight limits
    For these the same goes as what i said under the Function section. Remove, loyalties or not. 
    Inventory expansion
    Keep the price, make it family-wide, as loyalties are anyway. Even if someone were to never spend loyalties on anything but inventory expansions, one would have to log in for 3 years and 9 months to fill up the entire 192 slots... Per character. How no one at Daum/Kakao thought this was a good idea is beyond me. Unless, of course, some manager thought it was a good idea to make money at the expense of an actual game.
    Artisan's Memory
    These are actually decent for loyalties, though i would decrease the price to 700.
    Blessing of Kamasilva
    Same, decrease to 700. For loyalties these are quite good.
    Unknown dye Box
    See the beauty section - The price needs to go down. As they are 'free' though, 25 to 50 loyalties seems fair in this case.
    Elion's tear
    Remove, loyalties or not. Moreover, by offering them for loyalties, players are inclined to deplete them and then 'have to' resort to the cash shop option. All around bad item, bad idea.
    Energy Tonic
    For the price, these are debatable. I would actually remove them to make sure there's no slippery slope for getting them into the cash shop, but if they stay like this, it's allright.
    Horse skill deletion coupon
    Lower the price to 100-200, or remove the outright and add ingame methods for obtaining them.

    Thick Fishing Rod, Good Feed, High-quality Carrot,
    Remove all of these, as they are obtainable ingame through not too much effort. The paste bait can stay, since the fishing tokens seem to be broken currently anyway. There is no really good reason for keeping the other 3 in loyalties, as they don't feel like a reward for playing longer, but more a punishment for forgetting them.
     
    In conclusion
    Well, this has been a long one. I've made a similar post back in beta, though i didn't get any feedback whatsoever on it. I really want to know Daum/Kakao's reasons for why the items are in the cash shop, and why they are priced as they are, because i can't see any reasons other than a business plan of a Korean manager, who cannot see the long game if his life depended on it. The current state of the cash shop is so bad, it physically hurts.
    Not to mention that, from personal experience, it's been a major reason for friends of mine to ignore the game alltogether. 
    Hence, i hope this reaches at least some ears up there, because the game desperately needs to shed it's image of 'yet another Korean F2P grinder' which is preventing a lot of people from trying it out, and the cash shop is a good first stop to solving this - Mostly because, i hope, most of the proposed changes don't need approval from the main Korean office. 
    Daum, Kakao, Community managers, i hope someone reads this and something actually happens. Especially about the dyes...

  20. I complain about people spending money on dyes and then I go and do this.
    I feel like I'm fighting with a fashion model.
  21. http://black-desert.com/news/daum-games-rebrands-to-kakao-games/
    Rien que s'affilier sous son nom (Kakao) montre ce qui nous attends.

     

     
    Edit: ce message a été censuré par un gm/cm.
  22. with the gear gap now, bring more p2w items in cash shop so we can compete/catch up with the no lifers. we got the money to spend so take it Daum. this will teach those unemployed welfare peasants to not mess with someone who has money. 
    ppl can/are buying high-end accounts anyways so might well bring the p2w cash shop and you get all our money instead of someone quitting. with the amount of RNG and fails, you'll make an entire 3 month worth of salary in a single day. we got lot of whales but nothing really to spend on that can progress your character.
    oh and lot of ppl already label this game as p2w so at least make it be true.
  23. In life we often eat out and tip our waitress-waiter.
    We pay X for a meal and when done we pay for the service, how is the pearl shop different?
    we all paid X for the game and well I often buy a suit or weight from the shop as many of you do. 
    I do not see how many people cry over this and all these GG post in game, It is not like we can buy +20 Armor or +20 Liverito's this is not a Private wow or Lineage 2 server this is a real business, the cash shop is in place of the $/month fee's that wow and other pay to play games have.
    Next time you are in game and say OMG i got this X drop damn, say thanks Daum for this game.
    I am not saying buy $100000 in pearls but if you got a pet who cares, we all are lazy lol, well if you have an R button left lol
    Anyhow my fellow players, next time you eat out and they were a great server ... question, wait why did that guy tip you......
    It is life folks, if you do not get it,  wait til you have a server job, or do not get a bonus check, you might say what is in this picture.


     
     
     
     
  24. I have to say: Is there any ETA on the freemium Daum? You may reach a business model noone ever dare to try before.
    @CM_Jouska @CM_Tytyes
  25. I set out on a quest to see exactly what $100 could get you in this game with these dyes after hearing tons of people on both sides claiming that either:
    1) It totally wasn't worth it to buy dyes and try to sell them, you don't get any return
    2) You average 2 mil per $2.50 spent
    3) P2W is absolutely broken and people are making billions off of it
    Let's begin with where I began, and lead up to where I am currently, with pictures to document everything along the way.
     
    I purchased $100 of pearls, and bought the $100 pack. This rewards 11,500 pearls. Please note I had 90 before beginning this process, so in actuality used 11,520 pearls, one more box than someone who spent a flat $100. I have 70 pearls remaining, and chose not to purchase another box.
     

    I bought the "Unknown Dye Box Bundle", which has 3 dye boxes for 60 pearls.
     

    This allowed me to purchase 192 dye bundles, please note that I did purchase one more than you can purchase with a flat $100 which would allow for 3 less dyes.
     

    Forgive the few that were opened on accident during expansion, had to spam click each box and hit enter to open and they move around in your inventory whenever a new color palette appears. For those wondering, the breakdown of the dyes is:
     Valencian - 9Mediahn - 9Calpheonian - 6Keplanian - 78Heidelian - 75Velian - 75Olvian - 57Basic - 267  Numbers are including the ones that were accidentally opened, 3 olvian 1 velian 

    For perspective, I am 164/192 in my pearl inventory before opening a single "basic" dye box.
     

    My pearl inventory is now full. I have 230 basic dyes remaining.
     



    Above three pictures simply nothing the full inventory of dyes at the moment, so you can see the color breakdown etc.



    The above 3 pictures are to show which dyes are sellable overall.
     





    So with that, you can see the quantity of the dyes I got so far and the number of dyes that are available to be put on the marketplace. I guess at this point I need to start combining all the non-marketplace sale dyes and shooting for more that are able to be listed, and then continue opening basic dyes. I will continue to update this post as new information surfaces. This is all being done for informational purposes, and to actually document results.
     
     
    ROUND TWO

    So... after combining all those dyes, which was incredibly disgusting to do and took an absurd amount of time, I ended up with the following additional bundles:
    Valencian - 3
    Mediahn - 3
    Calpheonian - 4
    Keplanian - 27
    Heidelian - 23
    Velian - 31
    Olvian - 17
    Basic - 65



    Three pictures just showing the different dyes that are available after combining ALL the dyes I originally bought that WERE NOT able to be listed on the marketplace.







    This honestly feels more tedious and dreadful than grinding for 8 hours. I'm already getting fed up for it but I know I eventually have to combine all these for a 3rd round... Thanks everyone for your support, I will continue to keep everyone updated.