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Griefing; Fix it Daum


175 posts in this topic

Posted

Daum, why do you let one fat vaping pimply neckbeard, ruin 3 hours of farm time for 10 people? One guy can grief 2 full parties of sausan groups solely because there is no loss on PvP deaths. Takes me well over going -1m Karma to get this kid out. Fix it daum. 

ca36fbe619fe3f67dc50197141e75246.pngc43ae03de7c6b383aba8a8c03efab4f0.png

People like you are the reason open world pvpers get a bad rap..and you have the nerve to whine about it. Pathetic.

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Daum, why do you let one fat vaping pimply neckbeard, ruin 3 hours of farm time for 10 people? One guy can grief 2 full parties of sausan groups solely because there is no loss on PvP deaths. Takes me well over going -1m Karma to get this kid out. Fix it daum. 

ca36fbe619fe3f67dc50197141e75246.pngc43ae03de7c6b383aba8a8c03efab4f0.png

Here's where the problem is to me.  For the first 10 kills or so, Sparkidious was the -----.  After that, DirtyDingus become the ----- -- with no additional effort or risk on his part.  This shouldn't be possible in a meaningfully implemented Open World PvP system.

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Since you mentioned you are purely a PVE player, I am curious to get your take on what drives you forward in the game with out the PVP components though.  I noticed you said you have a self bred T7 horse, I also have a grip of T6 and have failed numerous T7 breed attempts which is okay with me frankly, and I enjoy fishing, and hunting now that it is here.  But what else do you fill your time with and why?

As a player with an eye on sieges, that is pretty much the only thing I have been focusing on in my day to day gaming and I use the other systems to help me not get burnt out as quickly as others have.  But I must say it is annoying to me to be "wasting time" doing things that are no where near as valuable as grinding in the areas I am capable of grinding.  I also often wonder if i would be capable of enjoying the game more if I simply didn't care what was most efficient or whether or not I was doing what I "need" to be doing at any given point in time.  

The T7 was actually a really lucky hit.  I bred two T5's (one was level 16, and the other level 29) and I ended up with a T7 female!  Still kinda looking after here and only using her for Heidel to Olvia runs to do my craft dailies.

There is no "one" thing that drives me to continue on with BDO.  I like exploring and have pretty much opened up Valencia (I did that at level 51) although I did some during "no creature times" when sieges were on (on my Ranger).  I have four classes over level 50 but prefer to work mostly on my Valk.  I have currently 288 contribution and 348 energy.  I started quite late with the game as I got sick of raiding on EQ2 and wanted some peace and quiet.

I actually like getting knowledge, working on getting all creature's identified.  Love doing quests and with a strong EQ background have no problem at all with the so called grind.  EQ on release took around 6 months grind to get to level 50 and when you died you lost a LOT of exp and could lose levels.  There was KS'ing on a grand scale, as well as training mobs onto others to kill them.  A death in PvP on this is merely a drop in the ocean compared to the old MMO's.  Meridian 59 when you were PK'd you lost a level.

I also like the soloness of BDO.  No more sitting around waiting on a tank, or a cleric to join a group only then for the DPS to quit the moment you get to the instance or camp.  BDO almost feels like a solo player game with a tacked on MMO.

RIft was awesome.  I was lucky to get alpha testing on that one which gave a great headstart.  I was then the 5th level 50 on the my server (I forget the name, but it was the RP server (I always chose RP servers where possible, not to RP, but because the playerbase always seems more mature)).  I create the first raid guild on that server (and got a lot of - we don't raid, were RP).  We got a ton of server first but the guy I always generally team up with then quit and it was boring then, so I quit too.

Aion was also excellent.  I loved the wings :).  The forced PvP though from level 20 (I think, maybe 30) kinda ended the game for me.  There was always some high level healer type hunting low level grind areas killing you off.

Vanguard was great too but the raiding was crap.  I almost joined Brotherhood of the Spider to get some decent raiding done but as a strict enforced raid guild, I really did not want to live my life around raid times.

I quit EQ2 when I got my mythical on my Assassin.  Returning sometimes to see how it was going and played recently on the progression server, but could not get back into it fully.

I even had a guild (or corp) on EVE.  However, one single player managed to totally ruin my entire corp by hounding and harassing all our members.  Slowly member after member quit because they simply could not get anything done as he used gank ships.  No matter how often we killed him, he continued to harass.  I even got a suspension for my rant at him.  Strange name he had - Moose Roosevelt.  One guy who I will never forget for sure!

I also did DAoC, EnB (the westwood space epic that failed), AO (now that was repetitive), a tiny small smidge on WoW (and it was everything I expected), and AC2 (which rocked, but died).

So on BDO I would say I am hardcore casual in that I am on a lot (work for myself doing website development, so always online) but have no mass ambitions.  I set a goal for each day and try to achieve.  I play it like you would play Farmville.  Achieve a little each day and it pays dividends over time :)

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Posted

Here's where the problem is to me.  For the first 10 kills or so, Sparkidious was the -----.  After that, DirtyDingus become the ----- -- with no additional effort or risk on his part.  This shouldn't be possible in a meaningfully implemented Open World PvP system.

What if he was on a quest and needed 2 more kills to finish it. Then he would have moved on and you would never see him again. Instead he met you and it took him and extra hour to complete a simple kill x monsters.

The fact is non of this matters. You have the option to pk him and he has the option to come back as many times as he likes. This is not greifing and anyone who claims it is is just trolling obv.

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Posted

What if he was on a quest and needed 2 more kills to finish it. Then he would have moved on and you would never see him again. Instead he met you and it took him and extra hour to complete a simple kill x monsters.

The fact is non of this matters. You have the option to pk him and he has the option to come back as many times as he likes. This is not greifing and anyone who claims it is is just trolling obv.

I agree mate.  Problem with the game is no one asks first.  Kill and then its too late to know if they were just questing, or there to cause problems.  At that stage is going to be "to cause problems"

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Posted

Exactly but this is how it should be more or less. Younger mmors dont understand that mmos were originally about choice.

I have the choice to just craft or just grind or just raid or wherever. It is hard to comprehend now with the restrictive gameplay we have today but In the case of PK, not to sound like a carebear but PK is not pvp. Killing a player who is either afk or does not fight back is not a player vs player situation, it is murder and should have huge consequences(lineage2). However like every thing else it SHOULD be a choice. If you choose to pk then suffer those consequences.

As things are right now it is too easy to just pk someone. Kill literally a couple mobs and its like nothing ever happened. A player who simply goes were the game tells him to should not be penalised for it.

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What if he was on a quest and needed 2 more kills to finish it. Then he would have moved on and you would never see him again. Instead he met you and it took him and extra hour to complete a simple kill x monsters.

The fact is non of this matters. You have the option to pk him and he has the option to come back as many times as he likes. This is not greifing and anyone who claims it is is just trolling obv.

The problem is that he has the option to come back as many times as he likes without any cost to himself.  It becomes a no brainer decision for the victim which undermines the reason for Open World PvP to even exist. 

There's no incentive for the person who gets PK'd to change the way they play the game and be aware of their situation.  This is where the design breaks down for me.

Like, say for example, if getting killed by Mobs had no consequence, then there would be no reason to pack healing potions or better armor, you can just come back.  Everyone would invest in offense and not defense cause there's no significant drawback to dying.  It would encourage succeeding by failing upwards.  

The PvP change where the victim has no risk is kind of the same thing.  I think the biggest difference is that it's way easier to get salty at another person for PKing you vs getting salty at a Mob for killing you.

I'm not saying people should be jerks and PK, but you gotta admit that the design of the game itself heavily discourages and punishes participation in their own Open World PvP system which is contradictory to design.  Why put in a feature you don't encourage people to use?  I used to appreciate open world PvP as it added an extra level of excitement and intensity of not knowing what will happen when you're out in the wild.  But now, there's no point in even fighting back -- by letting them kill me over and over again, I can laugh at them for the equipment they're about to lose when they die.

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Posted (edited)

The problem is that he has the option to come back as many times as he likes without any cost to himself.  It becomes a no brainer decision for the victim which undermines the reason for Open World PvP to even exist. 

There's no incentive for the person who gets PK'd to change the way they play the game and be aware of their situation.  This is where the design breaks down for me.

Like, say for example, if getting killed by Mobs had no consequence, then there would be no reason to pack healing potions or better armor, you can just come back.  Everyone would invest in offense and not defense cause there's no significant drawback to dying.  It would encourage succeeding by failing upwards.  

The PvP change where the victim has no risk is kind of the same thing.  I think the biggest difference is that it's way easier to get salty at another person for PKing you vs getting salty at a Mob for killing you.

I'm not saying people should be jerks and PK, but you gotta admit that the design of the game itself heavily discourages and punishes participation in their own Open World PvP system which is contradictory to design.  Why put in a feature you don't encourage people to use?  I used to appreciate open world PvP as it added an extra level of excitement and intensity of not knowing what will happen when you're out in the wild.  But now, there's no point in even fighting back -- by letting them kill me over and over again, I can laugh at them for the equipment they're about to lose when they die.

The cost is time wasted, a fair cost for just walking dont you think.

What is the incentive for the pker to change their playstyle? 30s of grinding the same mobs they were grinding before? This actually seems quite fair to me. The pkd spend 30s running back from the node and the pker spend the same amount of time clearing the red off. Just enough time to renew the conflict from scratch, which is the whole reason it was designed this way.

Again PK is murder and should not be rewarded in any way. The reward is the satisfaction of dispatching  X.  If a player is stealing "your" mobs and you pk him guess what? You benefit from those few seconds they are gone. This is an MMO they dont just hand out huge rewards, its about the slow grind . For example in the OPs pic the pkd was killed about 50 times. Lets say it takes 30s to respawn and run back provided the pkd spawns at a node. That means the op had at least 15min of unchallenged grinding. That is your pk reward. And the pkd gets what... killed over 50x has to spend extra time travelling around and possible never gets to complete whatever it is they were working on at the time. Remind me again which of you has the raw deal? 

Edited by Samuraijin

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Posted

The cost is time wasted, a fair cost for just walking dont you think.

What is the incentive for the pker to change their playstyle? 30s of grinding the same mobs they were grinding before? This actually seems quite fair to me. The pkd spend 30s running back from the node and the pker spend the same amount of time clearing the red off. Just enough time to renew the conflict from scratch, which is the whole reason it was designed this way.

PKing is penalized -200k karma, which takes longer than 30s to recover actually (there are karma recovery bonus items -- so there has to be a reason for them to exist).  Which indicates the system is not as balanced as you are suggesting sir.  I'm not saying your reasoning is invalid though, yes, the karma is recoverable eventually, but the risk vs the reward is certainly not fair as someone who dips into the red will actually start to lose equipment when they die (this is certainly not a 30s bounce back).  What they risk is certainly not worth the reward they are getting as they'd have to hold the grinding spot for far longer to recoup lost equipment.  

I'm also not arguing for the victim to not be salty (they can and should, PK's are jerks).  And as the original poster suggests the system is drastically skewed in favor of the victim -- to the point where it actually encourages you to get revenge on your PKer by letting them kill you even more (you just gotta come back, not fight).  The punishment is currently sending a very clear message to the PKer (don't PK, don't Open World PvP -- there is nothing in it for you).  I'm not a PKer, so this message is actually in my favor -- I like not getting PK'd.  My argument is, and i'm looking at this objectively not as a PKer or a Victim but as a player of a video game, given the punishment vs the reward -- what is even the point of having Open World PvP in the first place?  

The penalty suggests PKing shouldn't happen, but the game mechanics allow it (this is the biggest contradiction for me).  If people want to kill each other, there are other places that that can be done in consenual combat.

I know there is a bounty system being implemented which is supposed to encourage players to police each other and this makes sense, but at this time, the purpose for PKing anyone simply doesn't even exist.

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Posted (edited)

@Tatsumaki Jim

Nope the red from a single pk can be removed by simply pulling a large pack of mobs. Takes less that 30s actually depending on class of course. I have already outlined the rewards for an action that should have no reward whatsoever. PKing should not be a status symbol, it should not be a way to grow your eepeen. I mean the proof is staring us all right in the face. The OP pked this guy over 50x. You pk anyone over 50 times in one sitting and you damn well better be red for years.

Edited by Samuraijin

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Posted (edited)

PKing is penalized -200k karma, which takes longer than 30s to recover actually (there are karma recovery bonus items -- so there has to be a reason for them to exist).  Which indicates the system is not as balanced as you are suggesting sir.  I'm not saying your reasoning is invalid though, yes, the karma is recoverable eventually, but the risk vs the reward is certainly not fair as someone who dips into the red will actually start to lose equipment when they die (this is certainly not a 30s bounce back).  What they risk is certainly not worth the reward they are getting as they'd have to hold the grinding spot for far longer to recoup lost equipment.  

I'm also not arguing for the victim to not be salty (they can and should, PK's are jerks).  And as the original poster suggests the system is drastically skewed in favor of the victim -- to the point where it actually encourages you to get revenge on your PKer by letting them kill you even more (you just gotta come back, not fight).  The punishment is currently sending a very clear message to the PKer (don't PK, don't Open World PvP -- there is nothing in it for you).  I'm not a PKer, so this message is actually in my favor -- I like not getting PK'd.  My argument is, and i'm looking at this objectively not as a PKer or a Victim but as a player of a video game, given the punishment vs the reward -- what is even the point of having Open World PvP in the first place?  

The penalty suggests PKing shouldn't happen, but the game mechanics allow it (this is the biggest contradiction for me).  If people want to kill each other, there are other places that that can be done in consenual combat.

I know there is a bounty system being implemented which is supposed to encourage players to police each other and this makes sense, but at this time, the purpose for PKing anyone simply doesn't even exist.

I think this is a case of going from A to D while acknowledging that B and C exist and somehow leaving them out of the formula.

A) You are grinding in a spot or arrive at a desired spot to grind at

B) Another player arrive or is already there

C) You choose to either share the spot if other player is willing, flag up and take/ defend the spot, or leave

D) if pvp ensues whether it is in the form of PK (other player refuses to fight back) or flat out pvp (other player actually fights back) then karma is lost by the player that flags.

Where these discussions get derailed for me as a moderate player who is not opposed to pvping or "pking", but I don't make a regular practice out of it, is this.  The game tells you when you leave town you are entering a combat area where you can be attacked by other players, by going into those area you are consenting that pvp is possible.  As the agressing player in a scenario where player A ends up fighting player B, no matter who is who, you both consented the moment you entered the area where that activity is possible.  Should the aggressor lose something, that is a parameter determined by the game and frankly I am perfectly fine with the possibility of a loss of something, that gives value to karma.  Should the non-aggresive player lose something, who cares, the game says no at present, I can't say I have ever thought to myself "lets go kill that guy so he/ she loses 1% xp or what ever".  But you can't make the argument that at no time were you party to pvp because you chose not to fight back against an aggressive player. That argument holds about as much water as the favorite of the hardcore pvp'r that suggests if you are not here for the pvp you should leave.  Neither of those arguments make any sense given the current game construction.  You could make the case quite easily that pvp in a 1vX setting using flagging is highly discouraged by the game devs and meant to be used as an understood bandit type play style where you will be treated as a bandit.  You could make the argument that some people don't want to pvp in the game and will refuse to do it, taking any meaningful pvp opportunity away from a player who is aggressive towards them.  What you can't do is go into an area, which is anywhere outside of a safe zone, and claim that you were simply murdered by an aggressive player and you had no knowledge or form of recourse of the pvp scenario that was being thrust upon you.  The game informs you every time you enter an area where pvp is possible, by entering those area you agree to the chance someone could attack you, and you make the choice, just as the aggressive player does to be in that area and take that chance on being attacked.

The only way you could "murder" someone in this game would be if players couldn't log out and you killed a player that was afk, or the idiots that run around killing afk fishers and auto pathers that are obviously afk and that is just silly.  Those are the kinds of players that are after that bandit life style and they either don't care about the karma consequences or they care and enjoy them.  Other than those options, there is literally no reason to take part in those activities.

@Tatsumaki Jim

Nope the red from a single pk can be removed by simply pulling a large pack of mobs. Takes less that 30s actually depending on class of course. I have already outlined the rewards for an action that should have no reward whatsoever. PKing should not be a status symbol, it should not be a way to grow your eepeen. I mean the proof is staring us all right in the face. The OP pked this guy over 50x. You pk anyone over 50 times in one sitting and you damn well better be red for years.

I find fault in your logic, the player the OP killed knowingly went back to an area where he knew he could expect to be killed over and over and over again.  That is not a pk, that is just plain stupid on both parties ends.  There isn't a legitimate reason for the play style anymore than there is a reason to flag up and kill an afk fisher or pather.

Edited by MrGrumpleton

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Posted (edited)

I think this is a case of going from A to D while acknowledging that B and C exist and somehow leaving them out of the formula.

A) You are grinding in a spot or arrive at a desired spot to grind at

B) Another player arrive or is already there

C) You choose to either share the spot if other player is willing, flag up and take/ defend the spot, or leave

D) if pvp ensues whether it is in the form of PK (other player refuses to fight back) or flat out pvp (other player actually fights back) then karma is lost by the player that flags.

Where these discussions get derailed for me as a moderate player who is not opposed to pvping or "pking", but I don't make a regular practice out of it, is this.  The game tells you when you leave town you are entering a combat area where you can be attacked by other players, by going into those area you are consenting that pvp is possible.  As the agressing player in a scenario where player A ends up fighting player B, no matter who is who, you both consented the moment you entered the area where that activity is possible.  Should the aggressor lose something, that is a parameter determined by the game and frankly I am perfectly fine with the possibility of a loss of something, that gives value to karma.  Should the non-aggresive player lose something, who cares, the game says no at present, I can't say I have ever thought to myself "lets go kill that guy so he/ she loses 1% xp or what ever".  But you can't make the argument that at no time were you party to pvp because you chose not to fight back against an aggressive player. That argument holds about as much water as the favorite of the hardcore pvp'r that suggests if you are not here for the pvp you should leave.  Neither of those arguments make any sense given the current game construction.  You could make the case quite easily that pvp in a 1vX setting using flagging is highly discouraged by the game devs and meant to be used as an understood bandit type play style where you will be treated as a bandit.  You could make the argument that some people don't want to pvp in the game and will refuse to do it, taking any meaningful pvp opportunity away from a player who is aggressive towards them.  What you can't do is go into an area, which is anywhere outside of a safe zone, and claim that you were simply murdered by an aggressive player and you had no knowledge or form of recourse of the pvp scenario that was being thrust upon you.  The game informs you every time you enter an area where pvp is possible, by entering those area you agree to the chance someone could attack you, and you make the choice, just as the aggressive player does to be in that area and take that chance on being attacked.

The only way you could "murder" someone in this game would be if players couldn't log out and you killed a player that was afk, or the idiots that run around killing afk fishers and auto pathers that are obviously afk and that is just silly.  Those are the kinds of players that are after that bandit life style and they either don't care about the karma consequences or they care and enjoy them.  Other than those options, there is literally no reason to take part in those activities.

I don't think I'm leaving B and C out of the formula, rather, my discussion point is that one of the options you've suggested in C is completely not feasible.

A and B both have to occur or none of this discussion even happens.

with regards to C: Flag up and take/defend the spot isn't actually possible under the current PvP design -- the person who flags has literally no way to deter them from coming back -- you are left with Share or Leave. <-- this is my actual gripe with the design as it makes Open World PvP meaningless.

D is just the post PvP result and the penalty is paid by the person who flags -- provided they kill the victim.  Victim incurs no significant losses.

I'll have to test the karma recovery thing.  I can kill some horses for lost karma and see how long it takes to recover 5k karma.

I find fault in your logic, the player the OP killed knowingly went back to an area where he knew he could expect to be killed over and over and over again.  That is not a pk, that is just plain stupid on both parties ends.  There isn't a legitimate reason for the play style anymore than there is a reason to flag up and kill an afk fisher or pather.

I'd like to add that it's exceptionally stupid because the PvP system gives the PK no reason to do so.  Prior to the change, a sane victim might consider grinding somewhere else.  Post change, it's actually in the victim's favor to return and feed themselves to the PK over and over again in retribution.

Edited by Tatsumaki Jim

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Posted

 

I find fault in your logic, the player the OP killed knowingly went back to an area where he knew he could expect to be killed over and over and over again.  That is not a pk, that is just plain stupid on both parties ends.  There isn't a legitimate reason for the play style anymore than there is a reason to flag up and kill an afk fisher or pather.

Of course there is.  A quest led him to that spot. He now has to grind X mobs before moving on to the next spot. He is a PVEer. This is his playstyle. Until he completes this quest he cannot play/enjoy the game/progress. You are saying that the first time you get PKed that should be your cue to log out and take a break? Is this something you would do?

If a mob kills you, you will simply respawn and run right back right?, so why would swapping mob for player suddenly make this  behavior "stupid", especially when I guarantee that every single person has done it at least once.

 

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Of course there is.  A quest led him to that spot. He now has to grind X mobs before moving on to the next spot. He is a PVEer. This is his playstyle. Until he completes this quest he cannot play/enjoy the game/progress. You are saying that the first time you get PKed that should be your cue to log out and take a break? Is this something you would do?

If a mob kills you, you will simply respawn and run right back right?, so why would swapping mob for player suddenly make this  behavior "stupid", especially when I guarantee that every single person has done it at least once.

 

There's other options as well, they can move to another channel or another area with those mobs.  I've yet to encounter a PKer that can control an entire area to the point where no one else can score a kill on that type of mob elsewhere.  Generally PKers want the thickest, densest routes to themselves to maximize their gains.  It's math really -- and they'll kill anyone in their way to send a message.

I've encountered both types, some that will give you fair warning, some that will run you over on sight.  Both want you claim ownership on that cluster.  That said though, I've never ever been able to not complete a kill quest due PKers, even at Sausans where there's usually multiple full groups going at it (and this is after escaping the initial attempt to gank me).

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There's other options as well, they can move to another channel or another area with those mobs.  I've yet to encounter a PKer that can control an entire area to the point where no one else can score a kill on that type of mob elsewhere.  Generally PKers want the thickest, densest routes to themselves to maximize their gains.  It's math really -- and they'll kill anyone in their way to send a message.

I've encountered both types, some that will give you fair warning, some that will run you over on sight.  Both want you claim ownership on that cluster.  That said though, I've never ever been able to not complete a kill quest due PKers, even at Sausans where there's usually multiple full groups going at it (and this is after escaping the initial attempt to gank me).

As the Pker you have the same options if not more. If you expect one to change why not the other? Get it? You are saying that because he gets rekt he should change area/change channel (assuming he didnt just do that for the same reason) but in reality they both had those options from the begining and both made their choice and were forced to live with the consequences. One wasted a ton of time and possibly failed to complete a simple killXquest and the other ate a ton of karma. This is why it is not griefing. You make your bed now lay in it.

Have you ever been kOS over 50x by an entire group while questing? After the first time the guy probably couldn't even make it to the mobs before he was wiped let alone finish one.

He probably thought "if I can just sneak by these assholes and get those last two kills I can get the hell away from here"

 

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Posted (edited)

I have not.  Have you?

I haven't read the entire thread, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  Your argument seems to be anecdotal based on a narrative you've concocted to suit your argument. @Thug: is the above scenario imagined by @Samuraijin accurate?  It's pretty hard to get killed by someone the number of times the OP has consecutively without the victim having stubbornly taken action on your part to reach that outcome.  It came as a result of them not backing down (why would they? there's no penalty)

The original argument isn't right, wrong or who's an asshole in the scenario, it's that the system is horribly skewed in a way that makes the flagging mechanic completely inane.  That is, there's no point in having it as nothing good can come of it -- Daum's removal of any PvP penalty supports this stance.

Edited by Tatsumaki Jim

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Sure I concocted the fact that him and his party PKd a player over 50x. NO? OK well then why would he come back? Because he thought that by skill or fluke he would somehow defeat this entire group of PKers? Oh thats right you believe he was deliberately feeding them karma because he was "too stubborn to back down". "Me big strong you tiny flea, me give orders you follow." really is that how it is? We should all play at the grace of someone else? Right..you just lost all credibility.

The fact is they all had the same choices to make and claiming one person is obligated to make a specific choice is just ridiculous. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a choice in the first place.

I have not.  Have you?

I haven't read the entire thread, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  Your argument seems to be anecdotal based on a narrative you've concocted to suit your argument. @Thug: is the above scenario imagined by @Samuraijin accurate?  It's pretty hard to get killed by someone the number of times the OP has consecutively without the victim having stubbornly taken action on your part to reach that outcome.  It came as a result of them not backing down (why would they? there's no penalty)

The original argument isn't right, wrong or who's an asshole in the scenario, it's that the system is horribly skewed in a way that makes the flagging mechanic completely inane.  That is, there's no point in having it as nothing good can come of it -- Daum's removal of any PvP penalty supports this stance.

 

 Not quite as many times but I could have easily reached that number if not for my conscientious guild members who saw me being Pked repeatedly and rushed to my location, without me asking mind you. I infact was questing catfish all alone (I guess they were my mobs) and in walks this Wiz who i pay no mind since I could care less about a couple stolen mobs. My friend however decides hes no getting enough mobs or something and proceeds to light me up. Hmm ok, but whetevs, Im at 99.9 and just need a couple more catfish to complete my black spirit quest. After 30min of GvG I was finally able to move on to the summon scroll. 

Its funny how you admit that no one is at fault yet you suggest that the mechanics governing this situation should clearly favor the aggressor. What factors are you basing this decision on? Or do you intend to just fall back on "Might Equals Right" once again?

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Posted (edited)

Sure I concocted the fact that him and his party PKd a player over 50x. NO? OK well then why would he come back? Because he thought that by skill or fluke he would somehow defeat this entire group of PKers? Oh thats right you believe he was deliberately feeding them karma because he was "too stubborn to back down". "Me big strong you tiny flea, me give orders you follow." really is that how it is? We should all play at the grace of someone else? Right..you just lost all credibility.

The fact is they all had the same choices to make and claiming one person is obligated to make a specific choice is just ridiculous. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a choice in the first place.

 Not quite as many times but I could have easily reached that number if not for my conscientious guild members who saw me being Pked repeatedly and rushed to my location, without me asking mind you. I infact was questing catfish all alone (I guess they were my mobs) and in walks this Wiz who i pay no mind since I could care less about a couple stolen mobs. My friend however decides hes no getting enough mobs or something and proceeds to light me up. Hmm ok, but whetevs, Im at 99.9 and just need a couple more catfish to complete my black spirit quest. After 30min of GvG I was finally able to move on to the summon scroll. 

Its funny how you admit that no one is at fault yet you suggest that the mechanics governing this situation should clearly favor the aggressor. What factors are you basing this decision on? Or do you intend to just fall back on "Might Equals Right" once again?

Look man, clearly I struck a nerve somewhere, and for that I apologize.  

But the anecdote I meant wasn't that they killed him 50 times, they clearly killed him quite a few times; it was the part where you said he had 2 kills to get and couldn't get them.  There's really no definitive evidence to suggest he need just a couple extra kills or that he never had a chance to get any kills. The image the OP posted has no time stamps on when those kills occurred, it could have been 10 seconds apart, it could have been 2 minutes.  @Thug could tell us more.   

Please understand that I am not attacking your stance on the integrity how you feel you should show in the face of unwanted aggression.  I'm sorry you wound up in a similar situation and I sympathize with how that must have felt.  I'm also not arguing that might equals right, I don't think that anyone should bully or oppress other people.  I'm also not suggesting that the game mechanics should clearly favor the aggressor -- I'm pointing out that the mechanics clearly favor the victim when ideally, the mechanics should favor no one.  

Aside: The part of your story that I agreed with most is that your guildmates came to your aid -- this is ideally the way the aggressor should be punished. This is most in line with reality as we know it.  Criminals are punished for their actions, but not by God, by people.  This is why powerful countries have large armies or powerful weaponry.  When the game mechanics punish the aggressor, that's sort of the equivalent of getting struck by lightning (it wasn't doled out by people or community, it was done as an act of God).

In multi-player gaming, fairness is paramount in creating any meaningful and balanced feature.  The feature in question here is the Open World PvP flagging mechanic.  The rules governing it are clearly not balanced.  Aside from being a jerk and inflating your epeen, there is no value in having it.  To the point where they might as well turn off the flagging mechanic entirely.

The thing to understand in what I'm saying is: I don't care who lives or who dies in the exchange and I don't care who stays or who goes either.  My concern is that the PvP mechanic doesn't make any sense.  When a system is implemented in such a way that the winner loses and the loser wins -- that is a huge design contradiction.  Death is a game mechanic that is in alot of games and thing about that mechanic that is generally universal is that the player should avoid it.  However, when the system implements it in a way that death can be used as a way to come out on top (i.e. feeding), that's messed up.  

The key facts things to note that happened in the OP's case, is that

  1. They clearly used the Open World PvP mechanic properly
  2. Their success was met with high risk penalties

This is the point I was trying to make.  Hurt feelings and saltiness aside, the system is objectively flawed.  Open world PvP should encourage banding together and helping each other out.  When the game system takes it into its own hands to bring justice to the PKers, it effectively undermines its own value.

@Thug: Samuraijin inadvertantly cued me in on a potential solution you could have used in that scenario -- you can declare war on this guy's guild, then kill him as frequently as you please (at a cost I guess).

Edited by Tatsumaki Jim

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Posted (edited)

Look man, clearly I struck a nerve somewhere, and for that I apologize.  

Clearly you are confused.

But the anecdote I meant wasn't that they killed him 50 times, they clearly killed him quite a few times; it was the part where you said he had 2 kills to get and couldn't get them.  There's really no definitive evidence to suggest he need just a couple extra kills or that he never had a chance to get any kills. The image the OP posted has no time stamps on when those kills occurred, it could have been 10 seconds apart, it could have been 2 minutes.  @Thug could tell us more.   

Would that make a difference for your argument, and how so?

Please understand that I am not attacking your stance on the integrity how you feel you should show in the face of unwanted aggression.  I'm sorry you wound up in a similar situation and I sympathize with how that must have felt.  I'm also not arguing that might equals right, I don't think that anyone should bully or oppress other people.  I'm also not suggesting that the game mechanics should clearly favor the aggressor -- I'm pointing out that the mechanics clearly favor the victim when ideally, the mechanics should favor no one.  

Except you are

"It came as a result of them not backing down (why would they? there's no penalty)" Might equals right

Aside: The part of your story that I agreed with most is that your guildmates came to your aid -- this is ideally the way the aggressor should be punished. This is most in line with reality as we know it.  Criminals are punished for their actions, but not by God, by people.  This is why powerful countries have large armies or powerful weaponry.  When the game mechanics punish the aggressor, that's sort of the equivalent of getting struck by lightning (it wasn't doled out by people or community, it was done as an act of God).

And if I have no guildmates/ bad ones I should just go ----- myself, right?

In multi-player gaming, fairness is paramount in creating any meaningful and balanced feature.  The feature in question here is the Open World PvP flagging mechanic.  The rules governing it are clearly not balanced.  Aside from being a jerk and inflating your epeen, there is no value in having it.  To the point where they might as well turn off the flagging mechanic entirely.

The value is that it is another choice of playstyle. Some people could care less about karma. Clearly you and other like minded so called "pvpers" are deathly afraid of it. Muh gear loss.

The thing to understand in what I'm saying is: I don't care who lives or who dies in the exchange and I don't care who stays or who goes either.  My concern is that the PvP mechanic doesn't make any sense.  When a system is implemented in such a way that the winner loses and the loser wins -- that is a huge design contradiction.  Death is a game mechanic that is in alot of games and thing about that mechanic that is generally universal is that the player should avoid it.  However, when the system implements it in a way that death can be used as a way to come out on top (i.e. feeding), that's messed up.  

Except using terms like Winner or Loser implies a competition which PK is not.

The key facts things to note that happened in the OP's case, is that

  1. They clearly used the Open World PvP mechanic properly
  2. Their success was met with high risk penalties as well as the reward of victory and the domination of the zone for at least 15min as outlined in my earlier post. Or would you attempt to refute that piece of deductive logic?

This is the point I was trying to make.  Hurt feelings and saltiness aside, the system is objectively flawed.  Open world PvP should encourage banding together and helping each other out.  When the game system takes it into its own hands to bring justice to the PKers, it effectively undermines its own value.

It has already been established that even though MMOs are infact multiplayer games, you are not and should not be obligated to group with others for 100% of the content. Therefore using forced grouping as a solution to being PKed is unfair to those who prefer not to group, since you know you are all about the fairness.

@Thug: Samuraijin inadvertantly cued me in on a potential solution you could have used in that scenario -- you can declare war on this guy's guild, then kill him as frequently as you please (at a cost I guess). If he had a guild, if not then your whole argument is proven false and actually possibly justifies harsher penalties for PK. So working as intended then.

 

 

Edited by Samuraijin

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A player who simply goes were the game tells him to should not be penalised for it.

What you're suggesting here is that a player who unintentionally walks into a bad situation shouldn't be penalized, particularly if they're new... Sure, that's absolutely fair. The problem is, the current system allows for abuse. Fixing by re-adding a 1% exp loss will only barely penalize players who end up in a situation by accident, but it will severely punish abusers.
 

What is the incentive for the pker to change their playstyle? 30s of grinding the same mobs they were grinding before?

Where do you get this number? Unless they changed it, or new mobs give significantly more karma, mobs only give like 80 karma each. This means to recover from killing a player once, you'd need to kill 750 mobs or so. Even if you kill 20 mobs a minute, we're still talking 40 minutes to recover from a single kill.

It's also important to remember that (currently) negative karma has REALLY harsh penalties. If you go negative karma and make a mistake or lag out and die to mobs, you can potentially lose billions worth of silver in enchantments in a single death.
 

That said, I think the best solution is that players do not get penalized for respawning in town - only for respawning at the node. This way, everyone wins. Noobs don't get punished, trolls do, and people who really want to take over a zone can do so simply by investing a little more time.

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Posted (edited)

What you're suggesting here is that a player who unintentionally walks into a bad situation shouldn't be penalized, particularly if they're new... Sure, that's absolutely fair. The problem is, the current system allows for abuse. Fixing by re-adding a 1% exp loss will only barely penalize players who end up in a situation by accident, but it will severely punish abusers.
 

Where do you get this number? Unless they changed it, or new mobs give significantly more karma, mobs only give like 80 karma each. This means to recover from killing a player once, you'd need to kill 750 mobs or so. Even if you kill 20 mobs a minute, we're still talking 40 minutes to recover from a single kill.

It's also important to remember that (currently) negative karma has REALLY harsh penalties. If you go negative karma and make a mistake or lag out and die to mobs, you can potentially lose billions worth of silver in enchantments in a single death.
 

That said, I think the best solution is that players do not get penalized for respawning in town - only for respawning at the node. This way, everyone wins. Noobs don't get punished, trolls do, and people who really want to take over a zone can do so simply by investing a little more time.

Not quite. Im saying the system is working as intended until Daum decides to change it. Trying to complete your quest or competing with other players in a zone is not abuse or griefing or whatever. I cannot force you to take karma that is your choice just as it would be my choice to change channel/zone etc. If I choose not to then so be it I die and die and die, Time=money as they say. IF you CHOOSE to pk me instead of changing channel/ zone/party inv w/e, that is your choice, eat the karma.

When i PK someone, especially in a high mob area, I can usually grab a couple large packs of mobs at most and wipe the karma before they make it back to me. I have both done this and been on the receiving end of it. I couldn't tell you how much karma each mob gives. It is just based on my personal experience.

Edited by Samuraijin

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Not quite. Im saying the system is working as intended until Daum decides to change it. Trying to complete your quest or competing with other players in a zone is not abuse or griefing or whatever. I cannot force you to take karma that is your choice just as it would be my choice to change channel/zone etc. If I choose not to then so be it I die and die and die, Time=money as they say. IF you CHOOSE to pk me instead of changing channel/ zone/party inv w/e, that is your choice, eat the karma.

If it were that simple, sure, but it isn't. There are players who will deliberately suicide into other players, simply because it punishes the killer significantly more than it punishes them. That's how trolling in video games works: abusing a mechanic that negatively impacts the other player equally or more than it does you.

I'm not saying that was the case here - maybe the dude really did just want to grind and didn't know any better. But at the same time, you have to ask yourself... Why didn't he change channels? It's very likely because he knew that it was hurting the other player more. That doesn't necessarily put OP in the right, but it doesn't mean the system is good, or even "working as intended." Also, remember... Daum has little say in this - they generally just pass along information. The CMs and GMs do not necessarily know the intent of the devs, and I find it hard to believe that they intended for this kind of thing to happen.

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Posted (edited)

Im sorry, what was the hotkey for suicide mode again? I forget.

The only argument Im hearing is might equals right. Im stronger so you should leave/change channel.

 

So let me get this straight. In any given situation the "weaker player" should placate to the stronger. How is this even remotely fair?

 

@Tatsumaki Jim @Hesterry

Im just curious and I know this has no bearing on anything but would you find this behavior acceptable in rl

Edited by Samuraijin

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I think that much of the comments and suggestions of this thread and many like it over look the general and overwhelmingly obvious intent of BDO's design for implementing strife in day to day play.

First, I should state that I don't like this type of game play when carried out to a certain extent and preferred % xp loss in the game for any type of death.

Things that need to be taken into account though when evaluating the decision to make the change at a logical level as opposed to personal preference opinion.

1) Mobs do not belong to any particular player regardless of time spent in an area or desire to camp a group of spawns.  There is literally no MMO that gives ownership of farming areas to a specific group of people for a specified amount of time in an open world setting.  It would not make any sense to do so.

2) The "courtesy factor" many of us get confused or more likely complacent in our acceptance that we own an area because inter-guild relations and player courtesy give us that sense of ownership over an area.  The guild I am in notoriously claim spots that we want on channels that we "own" and we are happy to play that way because we can, how ever we enjoy a good challenge for the most part, so we are not afraid to war over spots and or PK if needed.  We also play the game a lot and are not likely to be pushed out of an area with out a reason for leaving.  But we also are not going to send the whole guild to help one person deal with one person, unless that person is "on the radar" so to speak. 

3) % xp loss will discourage newer/ lower level players from investing more time in the game. This by itself doesn't seem like a big issue or even to make much sense, but when tied into 4) it begins to shed a new light on how it is actually a big problem and can not be ignored.

4) There is no (NO) compelling PVE content in this game.  The closest thing to interesting PVE content is probably +15 gear at the Kzarka world boss, which most of us are past.  Where the compelling nature is meant to come into effect is by herding all of the player base at given (gear and level) intervals into very confined numbers of efficient spawn locations.  This is the basic design of the game, it is the only thing that makes sense given how the game operates.  Take Valencia for example, in this portion of the map there are (Fogans x unk, Basilisks x 2-3, Cresent Shrine x 3-4, Cadry x 1, Bandits x2-3, Naga's x unk, Lizardy things ( I don't remember their names and it doesn't matter, if there isn't a guild quest there you are not going there on purpose), useless humanoid story mobs down south (same as lizards).

(Solo or Group) Fogans drop nothing and give crappy monetary return for time invested but they do give decent xp.  I don't farm these so I can't tell you how many decent spots there are, but I am sure there are a couple and not more than a few based on conversations with guildies.

(Solo Only) Basilisks drop the BIS belt that is extremely rare and there are really only 2 with a possible third decent spot to farm them for the belt, xp gains are extremely minimal.

(Solo Only) Cresent Shrine drops the BIS ring that is extremely rare and while there are possibly 4 good farming locations in there, if you don't have one of them you are fairly out of luck to get mobs to pull. The XP at 57 is doable though not good and the money is fairly crap and if you aren't getting decent luck on scrolls and rings you are really just wasting your time.

(Solo Only) Bandits like I said there are 2-3 decent spots to farm these, but outside of a guild quest or completing the quests in the area which are easy and give decent contribution there is no reason to ever go here. money is crap, xp is crap, 0 luck drops.

(Group or Solo)Nagas, group xp farming spot, only 1 decent spot that I know of and money is pretty poor.

(Who cares)Lizards, if you find yourself grinding here...leave, just leave.

(Who cares) Humanoid story mobs, honestly these guys are fun because the groups are somewhat diverse in composition, they are not in any way worth farming.  But they are easy and right in side of Valencia so if you want to go to Valencia and are looking for a quiet place that maybe you can handle farming at a slightly under geared/ leveled state then these may work for you, but Sausans/ Pirates would be better. 

(Solo or small group) Then there are Pirates and Sausans from Mediah, still arguably the best two spots in the game for money and XP even at 57-58. Each containing exactly 2 good grinding spots, both of which can be farmed completely by a solo 56+ ranger in +17/18 gear.

(Solo) Lastly we have everyone's favorite since day 1...Ogre's.  No mobs illustrate the developers intention better than Ogres.  10 mobs total, 15 minute respawn and they drop by far and a way the single best accessory in the game which is extremely rare, and extremely difficult to enchant successfully.  But if you want to be on top of the min/maxing curve you need a few of these and you need to get really lucky on those enchants.  Even if you constantly control all 10 ogre spawns for 8 hours a day it can take a week or more to see one of these bad boys drop, so good luck. Bare in mind that means these are being farmed constantly by 50-58 characters.  There is no incentive to farm these on a level appropriate character.

As a player base we are funneled into these areas to jockey for position to get the (best) only spots for constant grinding that actually matter and they are not always level appropriate. This is coupled with the open world sieges comprise the player tension in the world that are meant to drive you toward/ and help you set your goals.  It is why arenas are merely practicing tools to use and not something that is ranked.  You may not like these things, but it doesn't change what they are or that they are the driving forces in this game.  If the developers had any intention of avoiding this they could have simply made all luck drops capable of being dropped by any mobs or spread mobs types out or done any number of things to confront this style of interaction.  But it is far easier to allow players to cause themselves strife from a coding stand point that to have to develop pve content that matters in each range of the leveling/ gearing curve.

So when you are farming in an area and someone comes in to "kill your mobs" it is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world of this game works that leads you to get upset.  Ultimately that leads some players to go far far into the negative, which if you are +18 you are a fool for doing because you will lose that shit quick at -1 mil karma.

This is the element of the game meant to give you strife like it or not, you are meant to fight over the mobs, that doesn't strictly mean by killing the other player if possible.  It means out farming them, killing them, flagging and ccing them and letting mobs kill them over and over again until they get the hint, or any other means needed to compete for the spot that both of you want until one of you is willing to relent.  That is how this game has been designed and coming to that realization will probably save many of you the aneurysms that some seem to be developing over these practices.  With that said, there is nothing wrong with an invested player (which we all are) coming to the forums and expressing an opinion, but if you actually want to see anything accomplished understanding the root cause of the issue will help make suggestions that are likely to be taken seriously as opposed to being seen as a rant or moan or complaint.

5) As a final level of strife (just for a more complete understanding of the other bane of most players) I present to you RNG, the idea that after all the players and mobs you have killed to get those two Ogre Rings and you put in all the money and effort to get that 30 fail stack and now you are ready, you do the hokey pokey and turn yourself around in your favorite spot in the town that is luckiest for you and you salute a magpie or what ever and click that magical enhancement button and.....poof!!!  Time to do it all over again, but hey at least you have a 31 stack now.

RNG just makes all of the previously mentioned systems that much more of a struggle.  RNG when it isn't going your way can be infuriating to the tune of billions of silver invested with no reward as an outcome.  I personally think that the RNG system needs to be reworked for accessories with more realistic fail safes in play for players desiring to enhance gear.  At present no one can afford to enhance good accessories past a low threshold and players that do not play 40 hours per week or more really have no reasonable mechanism to do so and this is about to be even more exacerbated by the actual introduction of sieges.  Where some players are going to have sums of money for being in guilds that hold castles that would require weeks of game play for those not in these guilds to accumulate.

 

Those are some things I find most people investing time in this game completely over look or never bother to think about entirely when expressing opinions about how the game does, or should, or shouldn't operate.

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Grumps

not to say your post isent worth reading in entirety but i'll just comment on the first bullet point.

while mobs are not ''owned'' by players , players are meant to meaningfully fight over them. when you see people that are karma griefers like this dirtydingus guy obviously was, it hurts the whole system. 

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not to say your post isent worth reading in entirety but i'll just comment on the first bullet point.

while mobs are not ''owned'' by players , players are meant to meaningfully fight over them. when you see people that are karma griefers like this dirtydingus guy obviously was, it hurts the whole system. 

I agree with this and would like to reiterate that PvP exchange should be meaningful, concise and balanced such that neither party can abuse it without reasonable risk vs reward.  The longer the conflict drags out the more both sides sacrifice to claim dominance in that area until one side chooses to cut their losses.

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