• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Sorceress Balance Discussion.


97 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The following is purely my opinion, you are welcome to disagree. 
Sorceress main since EU/NA launch, 185 AP / 219 DP Flat

Turns out they decided to undo the changes. As of 13/07-16 Dark Flame is now doing a lot more damage.
So as I was reading the patch notes I got pretty excited.

p5ZOWFu.png

This is on paper a very minor change, and not a change i'd like personally.
But I got excited that Sorceress recieved a balance pass despite PA apparently thinking that the skill was working as intended after the nerf. ?? or did they ??
What wasn't in the patch notes though, was the apparent damage increase the skill got on top of the mechanic change.
Making it the new target of rage yet again.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration and I also think the skill needs another balance patch. As it is now it is doing too much damage and offers too much utility to call "balanced". That being said, I wasn't one to cry hard for bringing it back to it's overpowered state.

Making outrageous claims as "1-button wonder, sorc op op op, nerf nerf nerf, melts 300DP TARGET IN 1 HIT LOLOL NERF, FKN SHITTERS" is not gonna benefit the game or the community. Exaggeration can make any class seem overpowered. And at this point I don't know if Kakao/Daum/Pearl Abyss is able to differentiate between reality and the forum QQ. 

Reality is that it's not a 1 button wonder class.. perhaps if you're playing on a very average skill level.
You still need almost all of your toolkit (except for pve skills) and you benefit greatly from not relying solely on Dark Flame.

Personally I would suggest 2 solutions to the current situation, which will, in my mind, increase the "skill level" required to play Sorceress. Both adds a mechanic to the skill cooldown.

Bear in mind that these ideas are with larger scale fights in mind. Not 1v1.

First suggestion:
Dark Flame damage remains high, but does 10-20% less than what it does now, while the skill is used off cooldown and is reduced significantly(40-60% less of what it does now) while it's used on cooldown

Second suggestion:
Dark Flame damage remains as it is now, maybe a bit lower. But the initial use when it's off cooldown will proc a frontal guard for 2-3 seconds. which won't be procced when it's used on cooldown

I wouldn't mind a combination of the 2 either, but then replace frontal guard with super armor perhaps.
In my head these 2 would add more depth to the class while making it more balanced. Numbers could be carefully tweaked over time.

Edit : Bear in mind that these numbers may be quite over the top compared to other tools and abilities from other classes, and that bringing dark flame damage down by 50% would render it pretty bad COMPARED to other skills from other classes. I'll leave them here so the thread still makes sense, but keep it mind that I don't think a straight up damage reduction would be the right call. If other classes take a damage nerf, so should sorc though. But it's not likely to happen.

But thanks for reading, I hope we can stop flaming eachother's classes for sport, and perhaps engage in a proper discussion that will actually benefit Daum/Kakao or Pearl Abyss.
If you have a problem with your own class, make sure to voice it in the appropriate channels, balancing is not necessarily done by bringing other classes down, rather than bringing everyone up.

Remember, when you see a 200 AP sorc melting a 233 DP ranger, that many classes will melt a 233 dp target if they have 200 AP. - Besides Warrior probably..

 

TL;DR. Sorceress is arguably too strong, how do we make it more balanced. How would YOU change Dark Flame, or do you find it to be perfect the way it is as of the latest patch?

Please refrain from "git gud" spam and let's try to have a proper discussion. Thanks for reading.

Edited by Scarflare
8 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Getting so tired of misinformed people. The skill was bugged, they reverted it to pre-bugged state, it is exactly the same as before, it does more damage now because obviously people have better gear than a month ago when valencia wasn't out yet. They're too lazy to properly fix it so they slap around some bullshit patch notes that don't even match what is actually happening with the skill. Anyone who fails to understand doesn't play sorc or is unable to use simple common sense or understand game mechanics.

 

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Getting so tired of misinformed people. The skill was bugged, they reverted it to pre-bugged state, it is exactly the same as before, it does more damage now because obviously people have better gear than a month ago when valencia wasn't out yet. They're too lazy to properly fix it so they slap around some bullshit patch notes that don't even match what is actually happening with the skill. Anyone who fails to understand doesn't play sorc or is unable to use simple common sense or understand game mechanics.

I know that it was bugged before and they "fixed" it. Doesn't change the fact that I feel it's a bit too strong.

So I take it as you think that it's fine the way it is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I fought Scalrflare in arena yesterday. I was deleted in few seconds as warrior with 260+ DP. I was dead before my first CC landed. 

This isnt really something balanced nor polished in terms of PvP. Either DP scaling is terrible or AP scaling should be adjusted so all classes can benefit from the changes.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I know that it was bugged before and they "fixed" it. Doesn't change the fact that I feel it's a bit too strong.

So I take it as you think that it's fine the way it is?

No they should make it so it doesn't have 100% crit chance all the time, and only when used off cooldown, like they tried to do. If they actually did that without making the skill do 20 damage per hit it would be fine, could probably have the damage reduced by 10-20% as well. But apparently they can't do that, it's too hard for them to edit some configuration files.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

No they should make it so it doesn't have 100% crit chance all the time, and only when used off cooldown, like they tried to do. If they actually did that without making the skill do 20 damage per hit it would be fine, could probably have the damage reduced by 10-20% as well. But apparently they can't do that, it's too hard for them to edit some configuration files.

I agree. at least I want the CD to mean something.

I fought Scarflare in arena yesterday. I was deleted in few seconds as warrior with 260+ DP. I was dead before my first CC landed. 

This isnt really something balanced nor polished in terms of PvP. Either DP scaling is terrible or AP scaling should be adjusted so all classes can benefit from the changes.

I'm certain DP scaling is terrible, while AP scaling is crazy good. - Matters a whole lot to shield classes. Think it's due time Warrior got a bit of love as well.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

or... just increase the manacost so you are unable to spam it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think it's generally good to have a discussion about this, but sadly, I don't think anything will change.
Even if most of the community came to an agreement on this topic, which will most likely never happen anyway.

And here is my rationale:

As we all now, patches are not prepared/coded in our region, but by Pearl Abyss in KR.
With what we have seen so far, I don't think it's too crazy to assume that the KR and RU patch notes - at least in terms of class balancing - are far more accurate than the patch notes released by Daum NA/EU.
Now, imagine being a developer at Pearl Abyss in KR. You get an e-mail from one of your regions, where the community demands a certain balance change.
But as you are coding and playing in KR, you have been used to playing with awakenings for a long time and are used to the new balance.
You know that once you release awakenings in that region, the community demand will be rendered obsolete. Especially if awakenings are barely more than a month away.
So you decide to disregard that demand for now and let the local CM's and PM's deal with the community outrage and continue developing the game as you and your company intend it to work.

Now, it is true that we were promised our own version of the game. Many mechanics and features are different in our region compared to KR/RU.
But one thing never changed, which is class balancing. I would argue that all classes are exactly the same on every region, with no balance adjustments regarding meta, regional preference or anything else.

Believe me, I don't want to be a downer, but I think this is how things are actually being practised right now.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Besides Warrior probably..

Full Furious Blow combos will easily 100-0 a target at those gear numbers, and proper cancels will let them take most of a bar off any BnB, it's just that none of the Warriors know how to play.

 

But I got excited that Sorceress recieved a balance pass despite PA apparently thinking that the skill was working as intended after the nerf. ?? or did they ??

No you're getting the wrong idea, the patch notes are nonsense and from checking KR/RU updates you can clearly see what happened. Here's the timeline:

 

- Dark Flame starts in NA/EU with a modifier that is supposed to give it 100% crit when off cooldown, the tooltip doesn't reflect this and the cooldown doesn't work, so it always crits

- NA/EU tooltip partially updated to reflect what the skill is actually supposed to do, cooldown still doesn't actually work

- DF code in main KR version is updated in an attempt to make the skill work. This still doesn't fix the cooldown, but does unintentionally cause the first 3 hits of DF to deal no damage

- Nobody in KR notices/cares because they're all using awakening weapons

- DF update is assumed to work and gets rolled out to RU, and then NA/EU. Cue uproar as this breaks DF, causing it to deal nearly no damage. The cooldown still doesn't work. Patch notes mention nothing about the damage change, because it's not a change it's an unintended bug, which wasn't caught in KR because the people involved were incompetent

- RU/NA/EU regions are oblivious to what the actual problem is, because they have no real control over the game and do little other than paste poorly translated patch notes from Korea

- PA are oblivious to what the actual problem is because they never tested it properly, and just assumed people were complaining about their crit cooldown "fix", which didn't even fix the cooldown. PA return canned response.

- Somebody at PA finally gets around to looking at DF. Goes "oops". Fix to DF damage gets rolled out to all regions in the next update, see KR version fix here: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/4ss0lh/kr_patch_note_14th_july/ They just fixed it in Korea. This isn't because of unhappy western players, it's because they only just realized.

- The cooldown finally works.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

170 AP sorc tested against 230 DP Valk, just now. 

-> DF doesn't crit on every hit when it's on CD. The patch note isn't clear. It says that it adds 100% chances of Crit in PvP, it only means that 100% of YOUR Critical Hit chances are added : your critical hit rate is doubled. I tested that without any crit bonus to have a low initial pool. This tweak only applies in PVP, not PVE.

-> Remember that when target is KD, critical hit rate is also raised. Vids with DF on KD target aren't representative of the pure skill's effects.

-> DF damage has been raised. Off CD, 30% of the Valks life vanished. there's a big problem there as the tooltip talks about damage reduction in PvP. Due to gear gap like with any other class. Tested against a same gear tier Valk afterwards (DUO), there's no way to tri-shot. At least 10 DF from back needed, I stopped to count after realising that the skill was OK.

Conclusion : The new damage reduction in PvP stated in the tooltip doesn't work correctly, except that DF is fine.

So, bugged for me again. I don't know how they test changes made to that skill but they should really work on it seriously.

The community's rage is justified imho. I play sorc and I don't want to tri-shot Valkies, I don't wand a bugged class either with effects stated in tolltips that doesn't apply correcty.

Edited by Kaeldrick
gear gap
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The new damage reduction in PvP stated in the tooltip doesn't work correctly, except that DF is fine.

DF damage has never had reduction in PvP. Why do you think its PvP damage has always been more than double the damage of Claws despite Claws being competitive in PvE? The tooltip has claimed damage reduction in several previous builds but this hasn't ever been the case. To date, the DF tooltip has not been correct at any time in any western build of the game. It still isn't correct now, but at least the skill is functional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think it's generally good to have a discussion about this, but sadly, I don't think anything will change.
Even if most of the community came to an agreement on this topic, which will most likely never happen anyway.

And here is my rationale:

As we all now, patches are not prepared/coded in our region, but by Pearl Abyss in KR.
With what we have seen so far, I don't think it's too crazy to assume that the KR and RU patch notes - at least in terms of class balancing - are far more accurate than the patch notes released by Daum NA/EU.
Now, imagine being a developer at Pearl Abyss in KR. You get an e-mail from one of your regions, where the community demands a certain balance change.
But as you are coding and playing in KR, you have been used to playing with awakenings for a long time and are used to the new balance.
You know that once you release awakenings in that region, the community demand will be rendered obsolete. Especially if awakenings are barely more than a month away.
So you decide to disregard that demand for now and let the local CM's and PM's deal with the community outrage and continue developing the game as you and your company intend it to work.

Now, it is true that we were promised our own version of the game. Many mechanics and features are different in our region compared to KR/RU.
But one thing never changed, which is class balancing. I would argue that all classes are exactly the same on every region, with no balance adjustments regarding meta, regional preference or anything else.

Believe me, I don't want to be a downer, but I think this is how things are actually being practised right now.

100% agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

DF damage has never had reduction in PvP. Why do you think its PvP damage has always been more than double the damage of Claws despite Claws being competitive in PvE? The tooltip has claimed damage reduction in several previous builds but this hasn't ever been the case. To date, the DF tooltip has not been correct at any time in any western build of the game. It still isn't correct now, but at least the skill is functional.

That skill's damage is really to high. As I said, I don't want a spammable iframe skill that tri-shots Valks. That's insane. <- We don't have such a thing

Sorcs is supposed to be a class for skilled players.

Edited by Kaeldrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Personally I feel like Dark Flame isn't back to pre-June 17th faceroll status. Even with the extra AP that I got from hitting DUO on my Liverto Amulet, I don't chunk my Wizard friend for quite as much and he HAS NOT had an increase in his DP at all. He hasn't had the chance to enhance his armor. So I personally think that it's already somewhere in between pre- and post-June 17th.

I think that instead of changing DF, PA really should change how DP scales. We've seen time and time again how poorly high DP value people can hold up against 180+ AP attackers. The other issue is just the community being a bunch of pricks and not understanding that our dodge isn't infinite or that we can't 1v5 or 1v10 unless you suck massive ----- or you are completely outgeared. Getting destroyed by people who outgear you isn't a new concept.

If either of those 2 concepts had to go into play, I would rather see the frontal block removed. We really don't need it on cooldown. It just incentives spamming even more than the damage (IMO).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That skill's damage is really to high. As I said, I don't want a spammable iframe skill that tri-shots Valks. That's insane.

Sorcs is supposed to be a class for skilled players.

230DP on a Valk is nowhere close to your gear tier, it's not an i-frame, and anybody being beaten by 3 slow telegraphed melee attacks spammed raw into their face should consult their local welfare officer, because quadriplegia gives a pretty good payout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That skill's damage is really to high. As I said, I don't want a spammable iframe skill that tri-shots Valks. That's insane.

Sorcs is supposed to be a class for skilled players.

We should be careful and correct when describing our abilities. Dark Flame is by far an I-frame and does have counterplay to it. 

It's things like this that will make the community pounce onto exaggerated conclusions, regarding the Sorceress, class faster than a tigress in heat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yeah, my bad.

DF is fine, we did some duels between guildmates and everyone agrees. It's not the former DF, it really is between the first crit bug and the no-damage bug.

At least it's correct.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Getting so tired of misinformed people. The skill was bugged, they reverted it to pre-bugged state, it is exactly the same as before, it does more damage now because obviously people have better gear than a month ago when valencia wasn't out yet. They're too lazy to properly fix it so they slap around some bullshit patch notes that don't even match what is actually happening with the skill. Anyone who fails to understand doesn't play sorc or is unable to use simple common sense or understand game mechanics.

 

BRkm0vw_700wa_0.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

My honest opinion as a sorc; It's doing to much damage at the moment.

It doesn't 1 shot people but it really could be toned down by 10-30%.
Exactly what values it should have isn't up to me, but I still feel it should be reduced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

cooldown damage can be reduced but when it's not on cooldown it should hurt properly. Just getting rid of the spamming would be enough imo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Sorc is now top dog in PVP again and people are pissed.  It's always the class that does the best that people will hate and scream nerf at.  It doesn't matter how "balanced" people try and make it.  

I haven't actually tested DF in pvp yet since the patch, but seeing as I used it only as part of my combo and not as the only ability used during the combo, I don't know if I'll see a huge issue with it.   Maybe nerf the damage 10-20%.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

We were practising 5v5 the other day (before bugfix), I flanked enemy backline and tried to distract their wizard (with 60 lesser ap+dp than me). He had no protection and I managed to get my full combo without being distracted but couldn't finish him. He casually stood up, potted and just ignored me and TP'd front to aoe my team. I ended up being the last one alive from my team ultimately losing the fight. This happened a couple of times. When I got help from our berserker we managed to finish the wiz. Personally I was OK with the situation but couldn't help the feeling that the slightly lesser geared enemy Tamer was being much more effective at what he was doing.

I mean people don't seem to be able to see the big picture here: 1v1 sorcs are powerful atm and in larger scale fights I feel, as melee assassins, we should be able to punish enemy (through potting) for not assigning resources to protect their squishies.

 

DF is only 1 skill of our combo (and stamina regain block mechanism vs some classes) and anyone not afk standing still will not let us constantly spam it and deal damage as well - we need to land CC as preparation. I get 100-0'd by equally geared tamer/berserker (at least - probably musa/maehwa as well) if I get caught in their CC and they nail their combo.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I know that it was bugged before and they "fixed" it. Doesn't change the fact that I feel it's a bit too strong.

So I take it as you think that it's fine the way it is?

Ranger and wizard both have super strong skills like this, no one is in an uproar over those. Tamer/Musa/Maewha lockdown is extremely overpowered and there is no lynching. People honestly just need to get better and get over it. If you are still (HOW?) getting rekt by a darkflame spam sorcerer that is equally geared to you, might wanna reconsider what you are doing.

We should be careful and correct when describing our abilities. Dark Flame is by far an I-frame and does have counterplay to it. 

It's things like this that will make the community pounce onto exaggerated conclusions, regarding the Sorceress, class faster than a tigress in heat.

Darkflame is also not an I-frame and you can be grabbed out of it. I-frame = Invulnerable.... DF = Not invulnerable. Misinformed salty rager coming to feed us sorcs again. Bro don't you know we need salt for sustenance. 

My honest opinion as a sorc; It's doing to much damage at the moment.

It doesn't 1 shot people but it really could be toned down by 10-30%.
Exactly what values it should have isn't up to me, but I still feel it should be reduced.

Kappa, DF is in it's rightful place and should remain as is. Anyone having trouble with it needs to find a sorc friend to learn to outplay it

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

A sorc's goal is to 1v1 burst someone down. DF is one of the few moves that currently allows us to do it. (Not that we couldn't during the nerf, but it involved waiting for your big cooldowns to be available and to attempt to burst them down that way and hope they didn't pot/couldn't run away in time/whatever. In gvg I basically resorted to throwing out DoDs and shard explosions in the hope I could finish someone off lol.)

Personally I also think the rhetoric about one-shotting people is silly.

230DP on a Valk is nowhere close to your gear tier, it's not an i-frame, and anybody being beaten by 3 slow telegraphed melee attacks spammed raw into their face should consult their local welfare officer, because quadriplegia gives a pretty good payout.

For instance, I'm in a top pvp guild and I faced a few valks in arena practice last night. The first two are very good and have probably ~250DP, know when to shield and when to be aggressive etc. I could kill them but only if they did not use pots. When we both used pots the battle stalemated for a few minutes until we called it off. The third valk was less geared (220DP I think?) and potentially less skilled and I could indeed take her down even while we were both potting. I have 180 sheet AP. That morning I ran into an enemy zerker with great gear and could not take him down either.

It's interesting because people love to hate on sorc but sorc does in fact have 1v1 counters. It seems like wizards, rangers & co want to be able to 1v1 anyone and complain when the class designed to take them down does in fact do so. Most people I fought are around as geared as I was and even then I'd say I wasn't necessarily killing them in one knockdown if all I did was spam DF. Even if sorcs are good at 1v1 we still have less utility than wizards/rangers in node wars (imo, of course). We can get in and assassinate a target or peel for the backline but it's always wizards vs. wizards blowing each other up when it comes down to it. 1v1 isn't the end-all be-all of the game so wanting to put down a class whose only real role right now is to be good at 1v1 seems dumb to me.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I totally agree with you, Dark flame being buffed is completely stupid. I am not even sure if daum actually looks at people doing PvP. They should come to the arena or watch people who play sorc to figure out if they needed that. Firstly sorc has a iframe and if they have low stamina they can alternate it with dark flame witch blocks front damage and if they shield of the block is about to break. Its back to iframe. Now just using this they can never be caught. And on top of that they do 50% of my damage if that drak flame hits me. I have met lots of good sorcs. They combo everything really well But seeing just one person spam the same thing over and over again and i can't do anything but run away is not PvP. I have never seen in any game where a skill that does so much damage also blocks. In the hopes some one reads this and changes dark flame @PM_Jouska

Edited by zeeshan595

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites