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Sorceress Balance Discussion.


97 posts in this topic

Posted

Please, play sorc a bit, don't use DF in an offensive way and you'll see by yourself. I didn't reroll during the DF nerf and tried to adapt my gameplay 'cause I didn't have the choice. Yeah, sure you can do things but killing a full life target on an opportunity wasn't possible anymore (I'll be glad to meet a sorc who could explain me how to kill a full life and equally geared opponent without DF, I'll probably learn a lot of things about the class. May I ask a favor? Could you introduce me someone like that?).

Other Sorc skills aren't useless at all, I didn't stated something like that. Most of sorc skills are awesome cc and can combo very well but their damage output isn't strong enough to kill on opportunity. Sorc is a very good cc dealer but I don't know any sorc player who rolled that class to become a cc bot. Without appropriate damage on sorc skills (overall damage with nerfed DF or DF as it is), that's all a sorc can do in a limited time elapse.

I see one thing : we don't have the same vision of this class.

Most of sorcs, including mysefl, rolled it and play it as an assassin. An assassin needs a burst, mobility and should be fragile (let's remove block on DF, I don't care) at least that's how I see that role.

What's youre vision of the class? A cc bot with a limited tp? (stamina is limited so are iframes).

PS : saying that reminds me the upcoming awakenings. I suppose that what I'm saying will not be accurate anymore. Assassin role and all that stuff. I have to reconsider the role I want to play or switch to another class. Tell me if I'm wrong but I can't see the link between the scythe and what I think about sorc's role.

Indeed many people argue in support of DF because they say that large burst is a prerequisite in their eyes for playing this 'assassin' class, which is what they view sorc to be. First of all, this is highly disputable - the core of the sorc is NOT being the assassin of the game (that role would much more naturally thematically go to ninja/kunoichi) but to be a highly mobile class with short - to midrange sustained dps and cc (this is what you will ACTUALLY find in the class description). And secondly, an assassin is traditionally a class that is able to quickly deliver high cc and burst, but as a tradeoff lacks compared to others the defensive capabilities for a direct face-to-face combat. The latter is clearly not the case for sorc, given that it has higher access to invulnerability than any other class (and more mobility than almost any other class) and has high sustain. As long as that remains so, the sorc's role should be limited to cc, sustained dps and survivability.   

PS There have been numerous threads in the forum discussing damage combinations that sorcs have available without the crutch of DF. You can still find those threads: Frankly, I don't understand the insistance to continue pretending that without DF a sorc simply CANNOT as a matter of principle kill an equally geared opponent. This is something that anyone who played the game in the last couple of weeks knows not to be true.

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Posted

Please show us how you kill anyone in real pvp with equal gear without DF. I m realy interested in that.

 

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Posted

I like the changes.

The thing i don't like, is the NA/EU community flaming over a skill that has nothing to do with them.

In other regions, they have buffed sorc quite a lot, and other regions seem to be perfectly happy with the buffs and changes, and accept them. But in NA/EU, people complain that sorc is too overpowered with some of their skills (which they are not), and continue to moan until it gets hit with a nerf.

I think that those who do not play sorc, and never plan to, should keep their opinions to themselves in terms of negativity towards the class. If they share their hate, it brings a bad impression to the Sorc side of the community, and when it comes to actual feedback about changes, our voices are not heard over the mountain of whiners.

So overall, i personally like the changes made to sorc in the latest patch. It finally feels like a sorc again.

Please show us how you kill anyone in real pvp with equal gear without DF. I m realy interested in that.

 

stinger + Dream of doom + Shard explosion + shadow eruption + black wave = Dead enemy (most of the time anyway, unless the enemy massively outgears you)

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Posted (edited)

SHOW ME.

It' nice having long ass combo on paper, now show me a video of you actually doing that in a real pvp situation (please no 1v1 no arena). I can already see the guy runing away after shard explosion in this combo, and you can't even do shit afterward because you wasted your long cd /mass CC and that s if his team mates are just starring at you killing him and all your cd are up which is......

Edited by PanpanTheGreat

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Posted

SHOW ME.

It' nice having long ass combo on paper, now show me a video of you actually doing that in a real pvp situation (please no 1v1 no arena). I can already see the guy runing away after shard explosion in this combo, and you can't even do shit afterward because you wasted your long cd /mass CC and that s if his team mates are just starring at you killing him and all your cd are up which is......

Pardon me but it was your side of the argument that came up with this claim 'a sorc cannot kill anything without DF'. And since that is so, your side should be the first to produce evidence to this so far completely unfounded claim - so please provide a video that 'PROVES' a sorc is a matter of principle unable to kill an equally geared opponent without using DF. Arguably, this would be a very hard thing to do as just from the point of view of raw damage numbers the combo that was provided to you above is enough.

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Posted (edited)

In mass pvp sorc cannot kill sht and u'd have to be lucky that their wizards are sleeping and that you don't get 5 pools of lightning unloaded on every single iframe you do. Talking without DF scenario these guys are discussing

however I have to he honest I have seen 200 ap sorcs meltttt every dp that is ingame right now (same for any other class) I just hope awakenings give a bit of balance but not too hopeful, one shot desert online

But yeah in mass pvp kill someone in backline without DF? Forget it.. Really maybe if I had 200 AP it would be just quick enough.. But in 9/10 times u gotta back the fk up otherwise you are going to get jumped on by cc of wizards/warriors/zerks/rangers

im talking backline combos are impossible in mass pvp... But think outside the box.. If that doesnt work lure them out of the group or something

Find a weakness in opponent playstyle, environment etc etc and exploit it, this is how u win pvp, im agerian geared im killing people pri/duo grunil geared (yeah tryharding but prefer it than giving into one shotting people, I have bank to gear up, but seems boring to me after all)

Edited by Flaw

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Posted

In mass pvp sorc cannot kill sht and u'd have to be lucky that their wizards are sleeping and that you don't get 5 pools of lightning unloaded on every single iframe you do. Talking without DF scenario these guys are discussing

however I have to he honest I have seen 200 ap sorcs meltttt every dp that is ingame right now (same for any other class) I just hope awakenings give a bit of balance but not too hopeful, one shot desert online

But yeah in mass pvp kill someone in backline without DF? Forget it.. Really maybe if I had 200 AP it would be just quick enough.. But in 9/10 times u gotta back the fk up otherwise you are going to get jumped on by cc of wizards/warriors/zerks/rangers

im talking backline combos are impossible in mass pvp... But think outside the box.. If that doesnt work lure them out of the group or something

Find a weakness in opponent playstyle, environment etc etc and exploit it, this is how u win pvp, im agerian geared im killing people pri/duo grunil geared (yeah tryharding but prefer it than giving into one shotting people, I have bank to gear up, but seems boring to me after all)

aren't you that trash sorc i kept destroying in rbf, you were like 10 points and i was like 300 points (restricted version mind you, everyone in equal gear except me who had 60 dp cuz my gear 2 good for that shit), so why talk here when you got 0 clue about how to play sorc xD

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Posted (edited)

aren't you that trash sorc i kept destroying in rbf, you were like 10 points and i was like 300 points (restricted version mind you, everyone in equal gear except me who had 60 dp cuz my gear 2 good for that shit), so why talk here when you got 0 clue about how to play sorc xD

Zergcarried who cares rbf playing with some mindless puppets I already stop bothering playing, restricted but a lot bring buff and hidden AP so yeah

U biebz fgt of course you can get +300 in a zergcareied limited rbf where total score is 2k+ even 10x easier than unl. Bet you were stacking all that human dmg and att lel to kill me when I was hands off keyboard, not even mentioning the tremendous adv you have stacking 2x crystals per slot

Anyway fite me irl bro

Ign? I might recall the situation and obv spot your 60 dp low quality bait

Edited by Flaw

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Posted

Pardon me but it was your side of the argument that came up with this claim 'a sorc cannot kill anything without DF'. And since that is so, your side should be the first to produce evidence to this so far completely unfounded claim - so please provide a video that 'PROVES' a sorc is a matter of principle unable to kill an equally geared opponent without using DF. Arguably, this would be a very hard thing to do as just from the point of view of raw damage numbers the combo that was provided to you above is enough.

I didn't say it's impossible, i m saying it s realy unlikely and possible if the ennemy team are clueless of what they are doing and if they let you do whatever you want without caring...     

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Posted

-snip-

-snip.

Take it elsewhere guys.

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Posted

Zergcarried who cares rbf playing with some mindless puppets I already stop bothering playing, restricted but a lot bring buff and hidden AP so yeah

U biebz fgt of course you can get +300 in a zergcareied limited rbf where total score is 2k+ even 10x easier than unl. Bet you were stacking all that human dmg and att lel to kill me when I was hands off keyboard, not even mentioning the tremendous adv you have stacking 2x crystals per slot

Anyway fite me irl bro

Ign? I might recall the situation and obv spot your 60 dp low quality bait

you try too hard trash lord, i didn't bring any hidden buffs or any hidden shit because i don't have gear for that, i have to take off 50% of my gear because im full duo accesories, only good things i was using was a tri liverto with 2 ap gems, even my offhand was a +15 helrick xD

 

the best part was when you told me to 1v1 you outside rbf then you pussied out immediately, even after telling you id downgrade my gear XDEEEEEEEE

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Posted (edited)

Mate what are you talking about if you are that sorc, really that sorc Im actually disappointed cause you were terrible lol, when you were fighting me near the cages in rbf u were just spamming df like a moron with a wizard and a witch on me and already demotivated to actually do something and you were missing 100 stings without any desync

Gear carried scrub is real, anyway I wont derail this thread any further Im sad now thought this might have been one of the better sorcs, but this guy is terrible lol

Edited by Flaw

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Posted

Everything that has been changed since the skill was bugged in the first place are the changes that will REMAIN until another set of changes are made in Korea, this is something people are failing to understand.
 

PA are NOT interested in how pvp balancing works over here as of yet, since awakening are not out (yes, that word again), once awakenings are out, any class that seem to be a huge outlier (think berzerker awakenings initial release, rangers and warriors) get a considerable nerf, until we get these new weapons, nothing is going to change.

The reason dark flame received a change (similar to tamer) was because of a bug, the skill was supposed to be changed here and in Russia on correcting a bug that they corrected in korea (100% crit whilst on cooldown bug), however, they broke the skill instead which had been broken in RU for ages, so then we get the "backtrack" notes which ninja fixed the skill and applied the 100% crit in pvp on cooldown anyways (except for PVE).

Now for the topic on COUNTERING this skill, there is one hard counter, which are grabs, dark flame CANNOT block grabs, so using it vs warriors, valks or berserkers without care will leave the sorc in a very bad spot (unless the grabbers are knocked down, then this is fair game).

Rangers are really the only class that don't have some kind of counter vs sorc and will ALWAYS lose vs sorcs in 1v1 (small-big scale is completely different people), tamers can i frame quiet a lot and takes understanding of the tamer's vulnerable points (timing their i frame as they do have to use a non-iframe ability at some point) and can dodge behind a sorc's dark flame and stagger them (mediocre sorcs can be exploited for this). Wizards can freeze if timed correctly and actually have a large variety of tools to counter sorc's attacks and then bladers are generally hard to catch, it becomes cat and mouse anyways, so this is closer to a skill-matchup if anything.

TL;DR: All class changes are most likely to remain until awakenings (or when PA care), every class has tools to counter sorcs - except rangers

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Posted

Please show us how you kill anyone in real pvp with equal gear without DF. I m realy interested in that.

 

He can't, he spends all of his time -----ing about sorcs and ignoring sorc players who tell him he's wrong. He has never had any idea what he's talking about, and he puts people on ignore when they try to explain things to him. Definition of a forum scrublord.

Pardon me but it was your side of the argument that came up with this claim 'a sorc cannot kill anything without DF'.

You broke the rules again, bud. The qualifiers 'real PvP' and 'equal gear' are the crux of the issue, and no one has been able to demonstrate that sorcs without DF would be viable in their intended role. Since the burden of proof lies on the people making the 'sorc is so OP nerf nerf nerf' claim to support their assertion, you aren't doing yourself any favors here.

Anyone else notice how it seems none of the nerf crusaders are intelligent enough to grasp even the basic logic that it's not the responsibility of people hearing a claim to produce the proof? I'm seeing a common trend here - 'sorc is so OP and no I don't have any objective evidence why don't YOU prove to ME that it ISN'T broken!'

Takes a certain kind of mind...

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Posted (edited)

Here's something that is likely to tickle the fancy of some.

Shave the current flat-damage of Dark Flame by a good third.

Add a factor of: If Dark Flame blocks an attack, it will hit even harder. And of course this effect not taking place during the soft cooldown phase. Give it a reason for people to use it more tactically rather, and for an enemy to approach a Sorceress with reasonable caution.

Increase the damage of our DoT effects substantially (Signs of Agony, Burning DoT from Ult. Dark Flame and the Bleeding from Bloody Calamity).

Extend the window in which Crow Flare's counter effect is open hugely. It's far too short currently to make any difference and for it to be used as a true counter move.

Dramatically buff Mark of the Shadow's damage, we have to trade off being completely immobile for it to be used in the first place, that trade off is enough. Including the health-gain/steal. Have it scale off of the hidden HP recovery stat if it already does not. Similarly apply this to Bloody Calamity.

Add some more dimension to the class' playstyle, open it up more to be a real magical brawler with the opportunity to spike down enemies if they approach carelessly, and force them to act through stronger damage over time skills. Push them into making a move they don't want to make. It opens up more room for the Sorceress to act as a 'fire and forget' caster in group fights whilst still giving it the option to tackle opponents in a more direct manner when needed.

 

 

Edited by Flemeth

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Posted

Here's something that is likely to tickle the fancy of some.

Shave the current flat-damage of Dark Flame by a good third.

Add a factor of: If Dark Flame blocks an attack, it will hit even harder. And of course this effect not taking place during the soft cooldown phase. Give it a reason for people to use it more tactically rather, and for an enemy to approach a Sorceress with reasonable caution.

Increase the damage of our DoT effects substantially (Signs of Agony, Burning DoT from Ult. Dark Flame and the Bleeding from Bloody Calamity).

Open the window in which Crow Flare's counter effect is open. It's far too short currently to make any difference.

Dramatically buff Mark of the Shadow's damage, we have to trade off being completely immobile for it to be used in the first place, that trade off is enough. Including the health-gain/steal. Have it scale off of the hidden HP recovery stat if it already does not. Similarly apply this to Bloody Calamity.

Add some more dimension to the class' playstyle, open it up more to be a real magical brawler with the opportunity to spike down enemies if they approach carelessly, and force them to act through stronger damage over time skills. Push them into making a move they don't want to make. It opens up more room for the Sorceress to act as a 'fire and forget' caster in group fights whilst still giving it the option to tackle opponents in a more direct manner when needed.

The nerf sorc crusade isn't looking to change the playstyle, they just want it nerfed until they can win against sorcs without any particular effort. The 'but dark flame is too stronk' surge we're seeing is strictly because DF has been in the spotlight recently - before this it was 'iframes are too stronk' with various half-assed 'justifications' thrown around to kinda-sorta-but-not-really support that claim.

I strongly doubt that PA is going to rework the class even in fairly small ways when 1) it isn't causing any issues in other regions and 2) Awakenings are already going to change the game's balancing point anyway.

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Posted (edited)

The nerf sorc crusade isn't looking to change the playstyle, they just want it nerfed until they can win against sorcs without any particular effort. The 'but dark flame is too stronk' surge we're seeing is strictly because DF has been in the spotlight recently - before this it was 'iframes are too stronk' with various half-assed 'justifications' thrown around to kinda-sorta-but-not-really support that claim.

I strongly doubt that PA is going to rework the class even in fairly small ways when 1) it isn't causing any issues in other regions and 2) Awakenings are already going to change the game's balancing point anyway.

Don't hyperbole the suggestions made here.

I don't care what the 'nerf sorc crusade' wants. I'm a sorceress. A proposal that I care what they think is absurd. But I have foresight into the health of any MMO profession when it comes to longevity and it's giving people options into ways that they can build their characters. Similar changes should also be made to other classes. Sorceress just has the most glaring places in which they can and by all means should be tweaked.

It doesn't change the playstyle per say but the changes proposed are designed to promote smarter play, it shaves it in a very small part but opens up more options , options that already exist within the core skill-set of the class. It's not introducing any new game changing mechanics. Tweaking it in places because at the moment whilst I love the class and I won't ever stop playing it, calling it one-dimensional is an understatement and we deserve a lot better than that.

Edited by Flemeth
Better wording.

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Posted

Don't hyperbole the suggestions made here.

I don't care what the 'nerf sorc crusade' wants. I'm a sorceress. A proposal that I care what they think is absurd. But I have foresight into the health of any MMO profession when it comes to longevity and it's giving people options into ways that they can build their characters. Similar changes should also be made to other classes. Sorceress just has the most glaring places in which they can and by all means should be tweaked.

It doesn't change the playstyle per say but the changes proposed are designed to promote smarter play, it shaves it in a very small part but opens up more options , options that already exist within the core skill-set of the class. It's not introducing any new game changing mechanics. Tweaking it in places because at the moment whilst I love the class and I won't ever stop playing it, calling it one-dimensional is an understatement and we deserve a lot better than that.

Never said anything about your suggestions, I couldn't care less if they tweak it to play differently without wrecking the class, I'll adapt pretty quickly because I've been playing these kinds of games for years. Sorc only feels one-dimensional inasmuch as most of the other classes feel one-dimensional - CC the target, hit it with your hardest ability or abilities. I think witch was the only one I tried that felt a bit different in THAT regard. But there's a lot of movement and resource management to sorc that keeps things interesting, at least for me.

But that isn't what was being discussed in this or in the bulk of these kinds of threads. It is not hyperbole to say that since the DF bug was fixed about six or seven posters have been spamming about how much they hate it and want it reverted and sorcs shouldn't deal damage, and yet even if you shifted the sorc focus away from DF as long as the class remains viable those same posters WILL be back to ----- about it, because that's exactly what they were doing before - except instead of the current 'nerf DF it does too much/hits too hard' track it was mostly 'nerf iframes' with a smattering of 'nerf cc' thrown in for good measure.

So the change wouldn't appease them, but what about your point that you're bored and want more options? The good news is, they already fixed that. You'll see that update in about 1-2 months. In the meantime, as nice as it would be if we lived in a world where we could confidently say 'yes, this dev team with a questionable ability to even communicate properly with us that has seen no reason to adjust pre-awakening sorc reliance on DF up to this point while running the game in several different regions will plan, code, test, fix, and patch meaningful tweaks to said gameplay that don't ----- up the class's balance before awakenings render the entire thing a mostly moot point', we don't live in that world, so I remain skeptical.

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Posted

 

stinger + Dream of doom + Shard explosion + shadow eruption + black wave = Dead enemy (most of the time anyway, unless the enemy massively outgears you)

lawl

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Posted (edited)

 

 Blader block and Charge and oneshot People sorc can only Jump around  o/

WE no Need another nerf

sorc dmg sucks anyway

Edited by kokolores

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Posted

The following is purely my opinion, you are welcome to disagree. 
Sorceress main since EU/NA launch, 185 AP / 219 DP Flat

Turns out they decided to undo the changes. As of 13/07-16 Dark Flame is now doing a lot more damage.
So as I was reading the patch notes I got pretty excited.

p5ZOWFu.png

This is on paper a very minor change, and not a change i'd like personally.
But I got excited that Sorceress recieved a balance pass despite PA apparently thinking that the skill was working as intended after the nerf. ?? or did they ??
What wasn't in the patch notes though, was the apparent damage increase the skill got on top of the mechanic change.
Making it the new target of rage yet again.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration and I also think the skill needs another balance patch. As it is now it is doing too much damage and offers too much utility to call "balanced". That being said, I wasn't one to cry hard for bringing it back to it's overpowered state.

Making outrageous claims as "1-button wonder, sorc op op op, nerf nerf nerf, melts 300DP TARGET IN 1 HIT LOLOL NERF, FKN SHITTERS" is not gonna benefit the game or the community. Exaggeration can make any class seem overpowered. And at this point I don't know if Kakao/Daum/Pearl Abyss is able to differentiate between reality and the forum QQ. 

Reality is that it's not a 1 button wonder class.. perhaps if you're playing on a very average skill level.
You still need almost all of your toolkit (except for pve skills) and you benefit greatly from not relying solely on Dark Flame.

Personally I would suggest 2 solutions to the current situation, which will, in my mind, increase the "skill level" required to play Sorceress. Both adds a mechanic to the skill cooldown.

Bear in mind that these ideas are with larger scale fights in mind. Not 1v1.

First suggestion:
Dark Flame damage remains high, but does 10-20% less than what it does now, while the skill is used off cooldown and is reduced significantly(40-60% less of what it does now) while it's used on cooldown

Second suggestion:
Dark Flame damage remains as it is now, maybe a bit lower. But the initial use when it's off cooldown will proc a frontal guard for 2-3 seconds. which won't be procced when it's used on cooldown

I wouldn't mind a combination of the 2 either, but then replace frontal guard with super armor perhaps.
In my head these 2 would add more depth to the class while making it more balanced. Numbers could be carefully tweaked over time.

Edit : Bear in mind that these numbers may be quite over the top compared to other tools and abilities from other classes, and that bringing dark flame damage down by 50% would render it pretty bad COMPARED to other skills from other classes. I'll leave them here so the thread still makes sense, but keep it mind that I don't think a straight up damage reduction would be the right call. If other classes take a damage nerf, so should sorc though. But it's not likely to happen.

But thanks for reading, I hope we can stop flaming eachother's classes for sport, and perhaps engage in a proper discussion that will actually benefit Daum/Kakao or Pearl Abyss.
If you have a problem with your own class, make sure to voice it in the appropriate channels, balancing is not necessarily done by bringing other classes down, rather than bringing everyone up.

Remember, when you see a 200 AP sorc melting a 233 DP ranger, that many classes will melt a 233 dp target if they have 200 AP. - Besides Warrior probably..

 

TL;DR. Sorceress is arguably too strong, how do we make it more balanced. How would YOU change Dark Flame, or do you find it to be perfect the way it is as of the latest patch?

Please refrain from "git gud" spam and let's try to have a proper discussion. Thanks for reading.

Sorry but you're wrong.  I would say you have no actual experience in mass pvp with a sorc against any significant group of people.

People need to stop looking at Sorc being OP in 1v1 settings.  Yea in 1v1 Sorc with his I-frame and the rest of the toolkit is great.  

But in MASS PVP...which is what this game is for at the end of the day...sorc remains OUTSIDE of the top tier group (Ranger / Wizard / Giant) (soon to be warrior with awakening)

Sorc is fine the way it is right now.  Not too strong in mass PvP, but very strong is 1v1/small scale.

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Posted

Sorry but you're wrong.  I would say you have no actual experience in mass pvp with a sorc against any significant group of people.

Damn, I guess you're right.

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