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The Value Pack And The Creeping Of Pay To Win In Our Version.


44 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Lets talk about this new Value Pack on the cash shop. It is essentially a subscription fee to gain extra benefits in game. To get a better understanding of these "bonuses", lets do a bit of analyzing  of what you get here:

 

 

Cash Value:

+16 general storage - $30?  +16 storage per territory = 600p. There are 5 territories.  600p x 5 = 3,000p = $30

+16 inventory -   $15

+100LT -  $10

Merv's Palette - $10

Unlimited beauty salon (a.k.a appearance change coupon 30 days) - $10

 

Passive bonuses:

Combat/skill/horse/life xp +10% (fair enough)

Distant node investment (a little bit "OP" imo, but whatever...)

 

 

So the total estimated value of the Pack is around $75 of with the extra passive benefits on top of that. Almost all of the above is already available on the shop, can be granted via loyalty points, or can be obtained somehow in-game. For $15 a month, it's quite the steal. Really generous of you Daum. Nothing too outlandish or...Er, wait. Except for this one:

Marketplace Collection +30%

This one I find problematic. If Daum wants to pass this game off as a Buy To Play game that is NOT Pay To Win, then this benefit cannot exist only as a perk in the Value Pack. My issue is not with the idea of a Value Pack itself, but is with JUST this particular perk.

 

I'l make this short and sweet. The market tax in this game is Horrendous, almost to the point where I don't even want to sell half of my items in the marketplace and just horde them in my storage. The Market collection benefit effectively nullifies this tax by a significant amount (granted its NOT a complete market TAX reduction, there is a difference)

All gear in this game is purchasable with Silver. You can spend real money for a significant reduction in tax fees from marketplace sales. To my knowledge, non-spenders cannot gain the same market advantage outside of the cash shop. Follow me yet? More Silver granted by paid benefits = more gear, better gear, faster. Now I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is leaving the "Pay For Convenience" category and is edging VERY close to the "Pay To Win" category. I'm not saying it is P2W, but its definitely the closest thing we've seen in my opinion.

Most people wanted the game to go Buy To Play so we can keep significant paid advantages OUT of the cash shop. Having benefits like this is perfectly fine in most MMOs...because most MMOs are Free2play (and are shite). This is NOT a Free2Play game in our region, Therefore it should not carry the same cancerous business practices that unfortunately plagues those type of games (Because if it does, then what even is the point of B2P then, Daum? What was our initial investment for? Lets be honest here, the cash shop prices already looks like that of a freemium cash shop, So if we can't keep the shop modestly fair, then whats the point?)

There has been a lot of talk about Pay To Win in the NA/EU version of Black Desert. And most of it was just 12 year old man-children (or children...)  spewing BS for the sake of crying about something in a game they may or may not like. Personally, I never thought small EXP bonuses or the gillie suit were remotely Pay To Win (especially in this game). However, this is the first time that I am ACTUALLY concerned about Pay To Win elements being introduced into the cash shop. That is why I am making this thread, in an attempt to stop this from becoming something that is acceptable, to prevent it from becoming something bigger than just dodging market taxes (Because thats what is is, lets be real here). To give a heads up to the Publishers and Developers that I don't think this particular Value Pack benefit is good for our version. 

 

Please Daum, for our version, consider reducing the Marketplace Collection benefit (maybe to like 5%-15%), or remove it completely. At least have another way players can gain this benefit outside of the cash shop. It is questionably Pay To Win and it just doesn't look good for this game man :P

Edited by MMOStein
meehh
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Posted (edited)

Nice post agree completely although you might describe all that as questionable p2w when it's clearly p2w as silver is what all this game is about, those who have the most money can get the best items especially now that we have night vendor in game & there is no need anymore to pre order boss gear & Kzarka wpns for 200-300+ millions,  this extra 30% collected money is a huge advantage we are talking for hundreds of millions people will get during the duration of the value pack & crafters benefit even more from this, there is many examples already from people who craft a dozen of items everyday & till now their earnings might was something like 20-25kk / day & now add to all that an extra 30% & you realize for how much extra money we are talking here.

This is not questionable p2w it's as p2w as it gets, people can from now on pay for a subscription that will allow them to earn more in game money in short it's like paying real money to get in game money, & the sad thing is that the forum is full of whales who are proud about how much money have spent till now in game that keep on defending this crap, those guys are cancer & the reason companies get away again & again by repeating the same crap in every game we get, I had high hope for this game when back then they said clearly that will avoid p2w at all cost & that's the reason they decide to release the game as a b2p title, they convinced us that this was necessary in order to do that, & few months later it's like they all get amnesia forgot everything they said & do the same crap every other company do, I am disgusted with them, in the end every company every one of them is the same, we had hopes that DAUM won't do that but they are all the same shit, I'm really disgusted with all of them...

Edited by Aeris_TheAncient
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Posted

And what if items start being put up on MP cheaper due to the 30% extra the seller gets, so the buyer ends up saving silver.

Are you going to QQ then?

Do all the QQers complain because they cannot afford the $15 per month or they can afford it but do not want to spend it on pixels?

Are the QQers going to use the FREE 30 day Value packs that they get on the 22nd or not out of principle?

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Posted

Oh they will all use their free 30 day value pack you bet ya

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Posted

Lets talk about this new Value Pack on the cash shop. It is essentially a subscription fee to gain extra benefits in game. To get a better understanding of these "bonuses", lets do a bit of analyzing  of what you get here:

 

 

Cash Value:

+16 general storage - $30?  +16 storage per territory = 600p. There are 5 territories.  600p x 5 = 3,000p = $30

+16 inventory -   $15

+100LT -  $10

Merv's Palette - $10

Unlimited beauty salon (a.k.a appearance change coupon 30 days) - $10

 

Passive bonuses:

Combat/skill/horse/life xp +10% (fair enough)

Distant node investment (a little bit "OP" imo, but whatever...)

 

 

So the total estimated value of the Pack is around $75 of with the extra passive benefits on top of that. Almost all of the above is already available on the shop, can be granted via loyalty points, or can be obtained somehow in-game. For $15 a month, it's quite the steal. Really generous of you Daum. Nothing too outlandish or...Er, wait. Except for this one:

Marketplace Collection +30%

This one I find problematic. If Daum wants to pass this game off as a Buy To Play game that is NOT Pay To Win, then this benefit cannot exist only as a perk in the Value Pack. My issue is not with the idea of a Value Pack itself, but is with JUST this particular perk.

 

I'l make this short and sweet. The market tax in this game is Horrendous, almost to the point where I don't even want to sell half of my items in the marketplace and just horde them in my storage. The Market collection benefit effectively nullifies this tax by a significant amount (granted its NOT a complete market TAX reduction, there is a difference)

All gear in this game is purchasable with Silver. You can spend real money for a significant reduction in tax fees from marketplace sales. To my knowledge, non-spenders cannot gain the same market advantage outside of the cash shop. Follow me yet? More Silver granted by paid benefits = more gear, better gear, faster. Now I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is leaving the "Pay For Convenience" category and is edging VERY close to the "Pay To Win" category. I'm not saying it is P2W, but its definitely the closest thing we've seen in my opinion.

Most people wanted the game to go Buy To Play so we can keep significant paid advantages OUT of the cash shop. Having benefits like this is perfectly fine in most MMOs...because most MMOs are Free2play (and are shite). This is NOT a Free2Play game in our region, Therefore it should not carry the same cancerous business practices that unfortunately plagues those type of games (Because if it does, then what even is the point of B2P then, Daum? What was our initial investment for? Lets be honest here, the cash shop prices already looks like that of a freemium cash shop, So if we can't keep the shop modestly fair, then whats the point?)

There has been a lot of talk about Pay To Win in the NA/EU version of Black Desert. And most of it was just 12 year old man-children (or children...)  spewing BS for the sake of crying about something in a game they may or may not like. Personally, I never thought small EXP bonuses or the gillie suit were remotely Pay To Win (especially in this game). However, this is the first time that I am ACTUALLY concerned about Pay To Win elements being introduced into the cash shop. That is why I am making this thread, in an attempt to stop this from becoming something that is acceptable, to prevent it from becoming something bigger than just dodging market taxes (Because thats what is is, lets be real here). To give a heads up to the Publishers and Developers that I don't think this particular Value Pack benefit is good for our version. 

 

Please Daum, for our version, consider reducing the Marketplace Collection benefit (maybe to like 5%-15%), or remove it completely. At least have another way players can gain this benefit outside of the cash shop. It is questionably Pay To Win and it just doesn't look good for this game man :P

At the very end you basically ask to give everyone the value pack perk for free... Personally, I couldn't be happier with this patch.

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Posted

 

Please Daum, for our version, consider reducing the Marketplace Collection benefit (maybe to like 5%-15%), or remove it completely. At least have another way players can gain this benefit outside of the cash shop. It is questionably Pay To Win and it just doesn't look good for this game man :P

Quote for truth. This is absolutely something that needs to be addressed. Daum needs to either come and out state that they're not changing it and that this game will in fact get pay to win mechanics like KR or they need to remove the market place buff.

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Posted

Quote for truth. This is absolutely something that needs to be addressed. Daum needs to either come and out state that they're not changing it and that this game will in fact get pay to win mechanics like KR or they need to remove the market place buff.

Wont happen, both options result in less £££. Its far better for their financial interests to stay silent for the next week and let the whiteknights do the talking.

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Opening post has my support.

 

Going to repost what i said in another thread with how i view things currently.

=

Having already felt disgusted with myself when summed up the amount of money i dumped into this game, and with that, encouraged them to think that we are cash cows ripe for the milking, sorry but my teats are sore and dried up, i wish to apologize to the community for being sucked into this money pit, but thankfully i have seen the light and refuse to give them one penny more, if i were to indulge myself into this value pack subscription on a regular basis, i will be part of the problem and would be contributing to the direction this game is taking.

 

Probably time i took a break from this game anyhow, grinder or lifer, the curtains have been pulled back, i see this game for what it really is, i have boarded the P2W train, if it walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, swims like a duck, then it must be a duck...

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Posted

Opening post has my support.

 

Going to repost what i said in another thread with how i view things currently.

=

Having already felt disgusted with myself when summed up the amount of money i dumped into this game, and with that, encouraged them to think that we are cash cows ripe for the milking, sorry but my teats are sore and dried up, i wish to apologize to the community for being sucked into this money pit, but thankfully i have seen the light and refuse to give them one penny more, if i were to indulge myself into this value pack subscription on a regular basis, i will be part of the problem and would be contributing to the direction this game is taking.

 

Probably time i took a break from this game anyhow, grinder or lifer, the curtains have been pulled back, i see this game for what it really is, i have boarded the P2W train, if it walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, swims like a duck, then it must be a duck...

I have to agree with this. What really bothers me the most out of all of this. Is that where has all this money we're throwing at them going? Where is our better servers? Why are we constantly suffering from desync? Why does it take weeks if not months to get a person to reply to a ticket? The list could go on but it seems that overall our money is not being put back into the game. It seems our money is simply going into DAUM/PA pockets. Until they begin showing us that the money being spent will actually benefit the game I see even less reason to pay.

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Posted

In my opinion they should remove the market tax entirely, for everyone, and remove this perk.  As a person who spends money on the game I really dont mind, I don't think the %30 tax, or whatever it is, is a good thing anyway.

Honestly, if they do anything along these lines to save you time for a paid sub, it should be like a %30 boost to maybe items sold to vendors or something.  That still saves you time, your geinding is more efficient, but it does't hinder other players from making the same amount of cash.  Just takes longer...

Nine of this is P2W people, its pay for convenience/time, you are saving yourself time, not getting anything that anyone else cant get in game.  Anyway, it doesn't matter really, people are blowing it out of proportion, like every other change that happens in game.

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Slowly becoming p2w is a good way to put it. It feels like this stuff just gets worse and worse. They trickle it out over time. A little borderline/grey area/debatable at first. People have good points on both sides of the argument and slowly but surely, they introduce things that feel pretty full blown p2w. I could see it happening for sure. 

 

On a side note: Wasn't this specific item mentioned previously that it would NOT be making it's way to the NA/EU servers? If that was said and then they went back on their word, then I will change my above statement to "It's only a matter of time until the p2w stuff isn't debatable anymore and is just full blown p2w."

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Posted (edited)

Am I missing something about the "Distant Node Investment"? I was able to invest energy from Heidel into a node like Hexe Sanctuary. Is that not distant node investment? Pretty confused. Anyways, I completely agree with the solution. Lower the MP tax rates to ~15%, which will still avoid the majority of marketplace manipulation even though I don't think it's a bad thing at all to play the market, and then about half the complainers will be happy. The other half will still be pissed because Daum broke their "promise," Either way, the benefits of the "sub" are way too good, and, as far as I can see it, I'll be surprised if I play this game more than 3 months from now, so what's $30 or so anyways? And if Daum does lower MP taxes down to 15% or so, which would probably be their best move at this point, it'll actually make crafting a viable, or MUCH more viable, method of money-making which, in turn, will increase the longevity and depth of this game even if it's just by a slight amount.

Edited by Kalade

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Posted

 

Marketplace Collection +30%

This one I find problematic. If Daum wants to pass this game off as a Buy To Play game that is NOT Pay To Win, then this benefit cannot exist only as a perk in the Value Pack. My issue is not with the idea of a Value Pack itself, but is with JUST this particular perk.

 

I'l make this short and sweet. The market tax in this game is Horrendous, almost to the point where I don't even want to sell half of my items in the marketplace and just horde them in my storage. The Market collection benefit effectively nullifies this tax by a significant amount (granted its NOT a complete market TAX reduction, there is a difference)

All gear in this game is purchasable with Silver. You can spend real money for a significant reduction in tax fees from marketplace sales. To my knowledge, non-spenders cannot gain the same market advantage outside of the cash shop. Follow me yet? More Silver granted by paid benefits = more gear, better gear, faster. Now I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is leaving the "Pay For Convenience" category and is edging VERY close to the "Pay To Win" category. I'm not saying it is P2W, but its definitely the closest thing we've seen in my opinion.

While this doesn't help the Value pack, I will point out you can buy a 1 day value pack with loyalty. At this time you can put your expensive items up on the market. Although I do not know when the taxes would be take out. Say if you buy the vale pack after items are sold and go to collect or if the tax comes when you put the items up for sale.

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Am I missing something about the "Distant Node Investment"? I was able to invest energy from Heidel into a node like Hexe Sanctuary. Is that not distant node investment? 

That part is referring to being able to put in contribution points for nodes regardless of where you are. Otherwise you need to go to the actual node Manager in order to invest them

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Posted (edited)

Finally cash warriors like me can keep up ;) no i understand your points but its obiviosly a choice they made too keep this game going where you also you benefit from. Im glad this option is aviable and i think everyone that has a job can appreciate that. I simply cant play more than 4h hours a day excepet weekends and even with that tax reduction there are still plenty players way ahead of me and still will be.

Some of you maybe call me a carebear but i currently have some days off from my job and can do fieldbosses and get way more loot than doing it at the evening with 100+ people. So i see it as a catchup mechanic nothing else 15 bucks is maybe 15min of work and i rather spend that money on a game i like to do more stuff i actually like in this game, for me pvp > pve, than grinding countless hours to get a bit of silver. 

Mmos are like this and as long bdo dont implements the best items in the cash shop or adds op items to the cashshop only its ok for me. Thats the worst p2w aspect in other games and im glad bdo will not go this way. Im glad i can spend money in this game to compensate the time i can not play it but if bdo had p2w in form of gear i would also quit this game because its just not fair and dmg its playerbase.

Edit: As a warrior im really glad too have this option i already cant farm and lvl as fast as other classes and with this patch we were passiv nerfed again (no 10% att speed aviable only 3-4) 

Edited by Shakur

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Posted

RIP this game. It'll have the devote 100 once it goes full on p2w then it will go f2p. Never trust Koreans and shitty CMs.

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Oke now lets see we go grind i got the 30% market perk u dont i find 1 item u find 3 in the end u still win coz u need something to sell to use that market benefit ............ Also u all cry about p2w game ............. U should see games where u buy best gems , gear on cash shop

But yes they should use this money to fix the server and hire more personal

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Off topic but damn, doesn't it annoy you when people think it's ok to put their forum subject titles Like This Because This Is Like Killing Your Shift Or Caps Lock I Do Not Know Man Its RnG

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totally agree with OP, i could live with the value-pack without feeling cheated out of my B2P initial payment because i don't care for all the bell and whistle of the value, it doesn't affect my game-play experience

• BUT the 30% market fee exemption is gonna affect me and everyone that doesn't buy the value pack, people will start playing the market to get richer (something that wasn't possible before), and the economy will crumble (the market is a very balance and fragile thing and i hope it will blow in your face Daun if you don't remove this feature), if something can be exploited in an mmo game IT WILL be.

~ thanks OP for taking the time to write this tread and i sincerely hope daun remove this garbage before its too late!

 

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Posted

Doesn't matter.. people will still buy this crap anyway. look how much money you save with it

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The real definition of P2W is when you buy the best gear with real money that cant be obtained by playing the game. So earning money faster is not P2W, pets looting for you speeds up grinding and earns you silver faster still not P2W, even buying in game money directly with real money still wouldn't be P2W (this can be done in EVE, GW2,WOW these aren't P2W)

Another thing, B2P mmos are just free to play with an upfront cost. It being B2P has no effect on the type of stuff in a cash shop.  I don't see how so many people on this forum got the idea that this game being B2P it wouldn't have a cash shop like we have know.

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The real definition of P2W is when you buy the best gear with real money that cant be obtained by playing the game. So earning money faster is not P2W, pets looting for you speeds up grinding and earns you silver faster still not P2W, even buying in game money directly with real money still wouldn't be P2W (this can be done in EVE, GW2,WOW these aren't P2W)

Another thing, B2P mmos are just free to play with an upfront cost. It being B2P has no effect on the type of stuff in a cash shop.  I don't see how so many people on this forum got the idea that this game being B2P it wouldn't have a cash shop like we have know.

The definition of p2w is changing over time. One of the reasons GW2 is not called p2w is because the gear there has very small gaps in performance and most of the PvP is equalized. In EvE, it isn't called p2w becuase you can lose everything. In WoW, you cannot buy the best gear.

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The definition of p2w is changing over time. One of the reasons GW2 is not called p2w is because the gear there has very small gaps in performance and most of the PvP is equalized. In EvE, it isn't called p2w becuase you can lose everything. In WoW, you cannot buy the best gear.

Ok how about we just copy EVE, if you gear hits 0 its broken and cant be repaired :P

While yes in EVE you can lose it, it still doesn't change that you can buy PLEX, sell it in game for in game money then buy any ship you want. So this isn't P2W but somehow getting 30% more for MP sales is P2W cause it can be used to buy gear? 

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Nice post agree completely although you might describe all that as questionable p2w when it's clearly p2w as silver is what all this game is about, those who have the most money can get the best items especially now that we have night vendor in game & there is no need anymore to pre order boss gear & Kzarka wpns for 200-300+ millions,  this extra 30% collected money is a huge advantage we are talking for hundreds of millions people will get during the duration of the value pack & crafters benefit even more from this, there is many examples already from people who craft a dozen of items everyday & till now their earnings might was something like 20-25kk / day & now add to all that an extra 30% & you realize for how much extra money we are talking here.

This is not questionable p2w it's as p2w as it gets, people can from now on pay for a subscription that will allow them to earn more in game money in short it's like paying real money to get in game money, & the sad thing is that the forum is full of whales who are proud about how much money have spent till now in game that keep on defending this crap, those guys are cancer & the reason companies get away again & again by repeating the same crap in every game we get, I had high hope for this game when back then they said clearly that will avoid p2w at all cost & that's the reason they decide to release the game as a b2p title, they convinced us that this was necessary in order to do that, & few months later it's like they all get amnesia forgot everything they said & do the same crap every other company do, I am disgusted with them, in the end every company every one of them is the same, we had hopes that DAUM won't do that but they are all the same shit, I'm really disgusted with all of them...

man i better make another thread about this topic

im sure it will be totally different than all the other threads because my opinion is unique

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Ok how about we just copy EVE, if you gear hits 0 its broken and cant be repaired :P

While yes in EVE you can lose it, it still doesn't change that you can buy PLEX, sell it in game for in game money then buy any ship you want. So this isn't P2W but somehow getting 30% more for MP sales is P2W cause it can be used to buy gear? 

As I've said, the definition of P2W is changing. It has slowly been taking into account the game it is in as well as what is in the cash shop, though in general too much of an advantage will be called p2w. Also the math has been done on the advantage o the 30% and not only does it show that you actually get a ton more making it easier to progress in this game, but it shows that those that take it are simply much more viable as life skill players or MP players. It will effect the game quite a bit.

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