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Remove failstack "caps"


32 posts in this topic

Posted

Problem: current progression system is designed purely on manipulation of a random number generator filled with unknown hidden modifiers and tin foil hat theories. Unlucky players are gimped and gated by this while lucky players excel and gtet ahead faster. This issue is compounded by those who have bad luck and limited time to play. Forcing upgrades was a good compromise for the unlucky players that couldn't suceed at the rng game in reasonable time. However you cant accessories and you cant force 16 - 18 on liverto and boss armor. What makes this worse than it is? The failstack caps. The cap makes it possible for someone to exceed 100 failstacks and still not progress their armor.

At some point, the game just needs to take pity and guarantee a success. Failstack caps make this. Impossible.

4 people like this

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Posted

What cap?

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Posted

I agree. I think RPG progression should be majorly attributed to effort with a little bit of luck and not the other way around. I think everyone likes to gamble a little but for every person that is getting extremely lucky there is someone who is getting tortured with bad luck.

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Posted

I don't think they ever acknowledged a cap or that the sheet everyone works off of is accurate.

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Posted

What cap?

/facepalm

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Posted

Problem: current progression system is designed purely on manipulation of a random number generator filled with unknown hidden modifiers and tin foil hat theories. Unlucky players are gimped and gated by this while lucky players excel and gtet ahead faster. This issue is compounded by those who have bad luck and limited time to play. Forcing upgrades was a good compromise for the unlucky players that couldn't suceed at the rng game in reasonable time. However you cant accessories and you cant force 16 - 18 on liverto and boss armor. What makes this worse than it is? The failstack caps. The cap makes it possible for someone to exceed 100 failstacks and still not progress their armor.

At some point, the game just needs to take pity and guarantee a success. Failstack caps make this. Impossible.

The idea of a 'lucky' and 'unlucky' player presupposes that individual RNG events are linked to an underlying individual player's stats. I see no convincing evidence of this. No more so than a person's RL experiences being, on average, more or less lucky than another person's...in other words being truely random and not based upon an undiscovered cause and effect relationship.

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Posted

Yes please remove Failstack caps

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Posted

Can anyone prove there are caps?

** Not just excel spreadsheet guesses...?

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Posted

I agree. I think RPG progression should be majorly attributed to effort with a little bit of luck and not the other way around. I think everyone likes to gamble a little but for every person that is getting extremely lucky there is someone who is getting tortured with bad luck.

:( 

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Posted

lol there is no hardcap only a softcap after you reach that a diminishing return kicks in and after that each fail get's a lower chance than the fail before.
how do ppl still not know this?

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Posted

lol there is no hardcap only a softcap after you reach that a diminishing return kicks in and after that each fail get's a lower chance than the fail before.
how do ppl still not know this?

Do you have any evidence or tests to prove that? Or any confirmation by the GMs/CMs/PMs? If that were true, I'd be much happier with the failstack system. 

Otherwise what you're saying is exactly the same as what they (the people using this chart, or ones similar to it) are saying.

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Posted

lol there is no hardcap only a softcap after you reach that a diminishing return kicks in and after that each fail get's a lower chance than the fail before.
how do ppl still not know this?

Because someone published a spreadsheet and called it good.

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Posted

lol there is no hardcap only a softcap after you reach that a diminishing return kicks in and after that each fail get's a lower chance than the fail before.
how do ppl still not know this?

whether it's a hardcap or a softcap. It shouldn't exist. It basically saying "Even after 1 million loses, you'll still have a 1% chance to fail" and by laws of the universe there WILL be people that fail that 1%. I'm not even getting into guaranteed de-enchantment on DUO - TRI attempts even though the considered baseline is.... TRI.

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Posted

Can anyone prove there are caps?

** Not just excel spreadsheet guesses...?

Nope

3 people like this

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Posted

Actually you guys do it wrong by trying to get huge amounts of failstacks before enchanting.

The sample and the difference in % are too small, technically you have as much chances to succeed an enhancement at 25% chances or at 33% chances.

The trick is to not let yourself be fooled by the mechanic and dump insane amounts of silvers into the failstack system.

I never failstack voluntarily above 14-15, i got to full DUO and TRI main weapon using barely 30-35 concentrated stones.

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Posted

No one can prove there is a cap

1 person likes this

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Posted (edited)

It's already common knowledge that failstack caps do exist.

 

bdo_fail_stacks.png.d2280d49a9556270326f

Edited by Lavender

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Posted (edited)

It's already common knowledge that failstack caps do exist.

That spreadsheet is common knowledge, yes. But I don't believe we've had a developer/Daum employee fact check it. It's still player speculation at best.

That being said, I still use a similar spreadsheet as a reassurance in my own enchanting. 

Edited by Ayl

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Posted

If they remove the caps, then everyone would just build FS to get 50%-70% chance.  BUT, that's only IF they make it to that number of FS for a successful enchantment.

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Posted

Simple answer.

Until the company releases internal documents on the enchanting system (these are called "Content Manuals") which are given to them by the developers (usually upon request, and usually with new content), then everything you might "find" is and always will be pure player base speculation, even as "sound" as some of it may be.

But frankly speaking, what fun is a game if you have the manual?

Speaking as a former tester, I can tell you that once you have all the manuals, how-to's, guides, and "cheat-sheets" layed out before you, it really does suck the life out of the game for you.  You may excel above everyone else because you know things the general public doesn't, but in the end it lessens the overall experience.

I've always been a big fan of community built databases and wikis, and its great when the company releases some actual developer written manuals to "debunk" "old myths" and "tall tales"......but dont' go blaming the company if they don't.  90% of the time, the GM staff doesnt even have the content manuals, as they are usually in the hands of the producer, are usually poorly translated, and are often times, hastily written with much information  left out, unspecified, incomplete, or unexplained.

Good luck on this one though.

 

Personally, I have had the better end of the luck pool by not "using" failstacks, but instead "just upgrading"......or rather to mean, instead of "trying to buff up failstacks before upgrading".....i just try to upgrade, if it fails, it fails, if it succeeds hooray!.......and fortunately RNGesus has been good thus far.

I think some people think too much into it, and are trying to find "blood in the turnip" so to speak.

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Posted (edited)

That spreadsheet is common knowledge, yes. But I don't believe we've had a developer/Daum employee fact check it. It's still player speculation at best.

That being said, I still use a similar spreadsheet as a reassurance in my own enchanting. 

You can dig around here and find the source for that.  I guess everything could be made up in the end.

I know that the guy who posted that gave the source of the datamine.  I know there was a recent thread here and a guy linked the original.

My true problem with that is, why the hell hasn't someone data mined this for our version? With all the hacking and crap, all the data mining that goes on, it's frustrating that someone hasn't data mined OUR version and posted the FORMULA the game uses. Either than or people have data mined our version and just aren't sharing their findings. It could be possible they are keeping the info for themselves.

I'm not saying our version is necessarily different, but would anyone be surprised if our version used it's own formula?

Edited by Pavo

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Posted

Remove RNG from gear progression, there is already grind, and the game is not a F2P game like it has been designed to be published and is published in KR.

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Posted (edited)

Remove RNG from gear progression, there is already grind, and the game is not a F2P game like it has been designed to be published and is published in KR.

Every game has RNG gear progression basically.  Whether it's raiding, dungeon runs, token farming, etc...

Think of it as a very long term goal for something that will last a long time. Instead of a gear treadmill we have an enhancing treadmill. Though here you can buy the stuff and let people do the rng for you, but you have to pay a premium for that and wait for supply. Just like people have to grind to get things, you have to wait for those same people to want to sell what they grind.  

Edited by Pavo

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Posted (edited)

You guys need to be patient with your upgrades. +15 is still pretty viable, at duo everything equipment you're still viable and you don't downgrade it's only when attempting TRI you start getting problems. Accessories feel more like something you chase way later or on the way, not at FIRST.

The other thing is, you only need 1 stone/concenstone per attempt and your odds get better with each try. I don't know what games you guys played before but the MMO I came from the RNG is way worse and the penalty is extreme compared to this on top of the upgrade material in any of previous games I've played require X amount, not just 1 stone of some sort where in this game you can find about 10-20 a day if not more. This is like a cakewalk. If you dont' have the title PRI DUO TRI TET PEN/Black Stone Donator, you probably haven't even enhanced enough. 

I've read many reports of people q uitting at tri/tet levels but I never get a chance to ask how many times they tried it over. If it's 5 times and you know the odds with that sheet people have claimed to be true then you're most likely going to fail. That should be obvious.

Obtaining a tet/pen is practically having perfect gear. After that you literally amass silver for... god knows what. So there has to be some sort of sink guys or you all just become obsolete until that gear-point, if you get there well congrats and holy damn.

Edited by KyrandisX

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Posted (edited)

Every game has RNG gear progression basically.  Whether it's raiding, dungeon runs, token farming, etc...

Think of it as a very long term goal for something that will last a long time. Instead of a gear treadmill we have an enhancing treadmill. Though here you can buy the stuff and let people do the rng for you, but you have to pay a premium for that and wait for supply.

Actually in BDOs case, in eu/na at least, it just makes ppl rage and quit. Less players. Some ppl farm for days just to be able to try to go up from duo to Tri. 

They fail. They get mad which is totally understandable, and quit. The rng would only be half as bad if it wouldn't set you back on fail. 

Even the most hardcore players are quitting over that. I have seen many of my guildmates quit because if it. Ppl that are playing 10+ hours everyday. Blowing up all their gear. Getting setback so hard, that they cannot compete anymore. The difference from pri to tri is huge. 

If you consistently fail and go down to pri or blow the item up entirely,  you get frustrated and rather drink bleach than doing it all over again. 

I wouldn't mind the rng without the setback. The game just shows you the middlefinger and nullifies alot of hard work in an instant. Only because of bad luck. 

This should not happen in a game. It's a game in the end. It rather feels like a job tbh. 

Edited by xMovingTarget
Phone corrections

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