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PVP Explained


54 posts in this topic

Posted

Why it's in the game --- PVP only exists as a trend that belongs to many MMO's.  It's just a feature not to be confused with competitive game play or actual player vs player combat.  If you want actual player vs player content you need to play games designed for that.  Such as MOBA's, fighting games, 3d shooters etc.

Lets be honest --- It's horrible, complete garbage and it always will be.  Many games advertise sieges, pvp, end game content, but lack any real system to do so.  They are highly flawed, and really just an exploit/grief fest.

Black Desert nailed it on this one.  It follows the exact trend as every other trash pvp game.  The damage is completely ridiculous and in many cases it's not even actual pvp. You slap together a few buttons and the fight is over.  It's so bad it doesn't even qualify as PVP because there is no (VS versus).

The future of BDO PVP --- Lets look at history to understand what will happen over the next few years.  No game in history has ever taken a trash system like this and made it work.  Even games that lasted 5-10 years never once had a single update with reasonable pvp.  Every single patch/update was just a blunder of excessive damage and failed mechanics.

The truth is if they where capable of making reasonable pvp system they would have done it already.  The fact is they can't.  It's not a priority and it's not on their agenda.  There may be changes over the years, but it's going to be horrible at best.

The most effective thing the developers could do would be to ignore it completely.  To not waste time on a broken system that will never be fixed.  They should focus their efforts on pve content, bosses, quests, new areas, features, etc.  Remember the success rate of games turning a system like this into a good one is 0%.

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Posted

Some interesting statements you are making, too bad it all goes to waste since most people here will jab about the creation date of your account.
This game pulled a huge PvP crowd when it was released, a lot of people were exited for it.
It's only a bit of a shame that neither Daum nor PA ever had them as their target audience.

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Posted

It's only a bit of a shame that neither Daum nor PA ever had them as their target audience.

I think the PvPers were the target audience until they made a trainload of cash. 

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Posted (edited)

Some interesting statements you are making, too bad it all goes to waste since most people here will jab about the creation date of your account.
This game pulled a huge PvP crowd when it was released, a lot of people were exited for it.
It's only a bit of a shame that neither Daum nor PA ever had them as their target audience.

I have over 20 years of experience with MMO's starting from the Dial Up days.  I'm not sure about the forum policies about mentioning other games, but I could provide several other games and their mechanics in detail.

You should be aware there are not a lot of real PVPers out there.  There are a fair amount of grief and abuse players, but when it comes down to actually wanting competitive play and being willing to lose exp/items/progress you won't find many.  The majority always comes down to bored players or those looking to hassle others, not challenging combat.

The enchantment system (copy pasted from other games) is highly flawed as well.  The cash shop agenda also has no incentive to promote better or long term game play.  The business model sadly is based around quick sales and promotions.  The cash shop will probably be a hindrance to the game mechanics and will always take precedence over improving the game.

Edited by 2Cents
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Posted

Competitive gameplay can be found anywhere, PvP included. People are competitive on who has the best gear, who got it first, who managed to hit the new level cap first, who clears a raid first, etc.. The same type of competitive thoughts can be found in PvP.

MMOs are also not necessary bad for this. Blade & Soul or Dragon Nest for example have/had fantastic mechanics that makes them interesting for 1vs1 fights. Some people are also just not interested in MOBA's, 2D fighting games or FPS games.

Either you make it as fast it currently is or slow enough that you need too many people for it to work. Want a system where you combo someone for a minute to kill them? Seems terrible for a battle with players in the three-digit range.
And the only times you end up dead without fighting back is if you get caught by surprise. Even in the scenario where you die by a single CC, you can still have a reasonable fight. The comboing in this game is simply replaced by catching others, which will probably first get properly visible when awakening weapons hit, as classes aren't too far divided then.

They already updated the siege rules multiple times, otherwise we wouldn't be in Season 4. They added RBF v1 and changed it later on to v2, they added a 3vs3 arena, made changes to guild war upkeep and the desert/ocean rules for OW PvP. There also appeared a new arena like island recently in Korea, who knows for what is used.
They are doing something, it just doesn't fit your tastes.

And what should Pearl Abyss do in your opinion? Remove all of it and turn the game into another PvE dungeon/raid grinder? Make it into another game with the same rules as MOBA's, FPS or whatever else there is?

Seems more like you're not a fan of PvP in MMOs and want none of it here because you can find "better" PvP in other genres.

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Posted

Some interesting statements you are making, too bad it all goes to waste since most people here will jab about the creation date of your account.

Usually people take jabs at people's creation date when what they are saying is either a load of garbage, an ultimatum or a quitting post.

He's not really wrong about the quality of the PvP in most mmo's, this one included, in terms of them being places to find good competition.

That being said, it's not the entire picture and just because a game doesn't have a competitive element that focuses on raw skill doesn't mean that a game is without merit.

After all, you don't really need to look far in history to see that wars are seldom even, balanced or fair even when you go as small as feuds between individual people. This doesn't mean all conflict is meaningless and has no value being explored in alternate medium nor does it mean the game can't be enjoyable for people.

It just means if you're looking for real skill based competition you might want to consider games that have much better balance.

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Posted

What is with the flood of judgmental moderators on this forum lately? 

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Posted

What is with the flood of judgmental moderators on this forum lately? 

I nominate Kat VM. xD 

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Posted

What is with the flood of judgmental moderators on this forum lately? 

VM's just got "hired"

But in fairness... to be a mod you kinda *have* to be judgmental by definition.

If they start overstepping the posted forum rules though I'll start to get upset... so far they seem to be helping keep things from getting out of hand.

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Posted

VM's just got "hired"
But in fairness... to be a mod you kinda *have* to be judgmental by definition.

If they start overstepping the posted forum rules though I'll start to get upset... so far they seem to be helping keep things from getting out of hand.

I don't know, man. Having an opinion is totally out of hand. :P

 

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Posted

Lets be honest ---

Why haven't you figured out this game is not for you?

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Posted

Off Topic: 

VM's just got "hired"
But in fairness... to be a mod you kinda *have* to be judgmental by definition.

If they start overstepping the posted forum rules though I'll start to get upset... so far they seem to be helping keep things from getting out of hand.

I got yelled at for expressing my opinion over karma bombing yesterday ;~; Even still, I've been getting pretty good responses from people. 

@Kat, I think having an opinion and being overly judgmental are two very different things when it comes to moderation at least. 

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Posted

I nominate Kat VM. xD 

No way in hell.

I don't know, man. Having an opinion is totally out of hand. :P

It depends on how you state your opinion. Maybe I am old fashioned but I think moderators should generally refrain from taking sides in discussions, especially on a forum like this.

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Posted (edited)

I judge the mechanics by the entire system and how it works in general.  The concept of "fast" pvp frequently turns into fractions of a second even with the highest level players.  In many games you can kill a player with 40,000 hours of game play in half a second.  Or you can disable them with fear/stun etc causing the same effect.  In those games players refer to the same mechanics the same way, catch someone off guard, gank, etc.

The only really nice thing about an open pvp environment like this is it makes it more difficult to bot/script.  Which thankfully I haven't seen to many signs of in BDO.  I hope it stays that way.

A reasonable PVP system is nearly impossible in this type of game.  That is why it's only feasible for games that specifically focus on PVP, (shooters, moba etc).  Their development team isn't working on developing a full scale MMO they specialize in PVP.

To balance classes, level differences, equipment, etc would be an extensive time consuming and ongoing process.  It's just not going to happen.  That's why I would prefer they spend time on nodes, horses, areas, drop rate, content etc.

Even some of the PVE aspects are terrible.  A game that can't even balance PVE can't manage a good PVP system.  They used the aggro system from Everquest for example.  Once you reach a certain level mobs don't even bother attacking you.  While this allows you easier passage through areas you probably wouldn't want to fight, it immediately ruins the threat of an area.

Whats worse though is the skills.  I went from struggling to heal, using ranged attacks and melee to battle through areas with very poor equipment to just 1 shot AOEing areas of mobs near my level.  It's so unreasonably overpowered that it dominates the play style.

I realize not every fight is this way, but just looking at the percent damage on skills you can see glaring issues.  It's not even difficult combo's with timing, it's things like a 6 second refresh 1 click AOE to destroy everything.  This is the reality of "how the game mechanics work".  So when you insert PVP into a system like this, you get exactly what I said you would in the original post.  A very weak system with pvp included, but not really well crafted.

Edited by 2Cents

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Posted

This is a strong trend in most young MMORPG's tho. I think we have to get use to it.

But mainly comes from gaming developers and publishers trying to figure out the most profitable product. They naturally drool over all the copies and microtransactions MOBA's and online shooters, pure PvP games, are getting. They passed traditional MMORPG's in popularity a long time ago.

Gaming developers assumes it's a winning concept, so they try to translate short TTK, max speed action and instakills from Shooters to normal MMORPG's.

What they completely miss or fail to understand is that MMORPG's have lag from hell, latency, bugs and massive gear and level disparity. MMORPG's have a different audience.  MMORPG's have a much lower skill ceiling and requirement, compared to pure PvP oriented games, where you often need to sneak or aim perfectly to get simliar burst. So you end up with really frustrating PvP.

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Posted

Why haven't you figured out this game is not for you?

It might be for me.  The game has a lot more to offer than pvp.  My bigger issue is how much progression you can make in the end game.  The exp curve is definitely broken.  Even without boosts you can achieve 50+ in a week.  It feels like the soft cap should have been 120+ allowing players to grind for months/years through those levels instead of just slamming you at the last few levels.  While that obviously wont work with the current system it would have made progression past 50 much smoother.

I realize you can spend years perfecting equipment, and it will take a while to max the skills, but it's really a bit shallow for a game with so much content.

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Posted

It might be for me.  The game has a lot more to offer than pvp.  My bigger issue is how much progression you can make in the end game.  The exp curve is definitely broken.  Even without boosts you can achieve 50+ in a week.  It feels like the soft cap should have been 120+ allowing players to grind for months/years through those levels instead of just slamming you at the last few levels.  While that obviously wont work with the current system it would have made progression past 50 much smoother

BDO allows players to spend an obscene number of hours working towards a goal or getting stronger. BDO also allows players with much less time stay competitive. It does this through that steep curve you seem so unhappy with. Adding 120+ levels with an easier curve widens the gap between those types of players even further. No thanks.

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Posted (edited)

BDO allows players to spend an obscene number of hours working towards a goal or getting stronger. BDO also allows players with much less time stay competitive. It does this through that steep curve you seem so unhappy with. Adding 120+ levels with an easier curve widens the gap between those types of players even further. No thanks.

It's a very viable system.  Rappelz did an excellent job with it when around 170-180 was the cap and not really achievable.   Last chaos had something similar.

As I mentioned, it wouldn't work with the current game mechanics.  All the pieces such as level disparity, grouping, mob levels all need to fit into place.  However, the system is generally superior to a much more constrained system like the one in place.  Many other games are doing sub systems such as Devillion or  Diablo 3.

The issue is that there are unlimited progression systems and pseudo ones.  Games likes Asheron's Call allowed nearly infinite character development while systems like Lineage 1 just prevented you from leveling by halting the process.

Gaining a level over several months just isn't a very suitable system.  I know why they do it with the current setup, but there are simply better alternatives or additional things that could be added.  Simply farming for silver outside of that exp system is also not sufficient.  It's great that you can and vital for the process, but the exp gained should reflect some sort of gain even in the end game.

There are players who will persist through the game for many years.  Look at how many have dropped out already though.  Granted a LOT of them leave for other reasons and many just couldn't be retained.  A limited system such as leveling once per month or 6 months will encourage more to drop out than a system with more gradual small increases over time.

Edited by 2Cents

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Posted

Why it's in the game --- PVP only exists as a trend that belongs to many MMO's.  It's just a feature not to be confused with competitive game play or actual player vs player combat.  If you want actual player vs player content you need to play games designed for that.  Such as MOBA's, fighting games, 3d shooters etc.

Lets be honest --- It's horrible, complete garbage and it always will be.  Many games advertise sieges, pvp, end game content, but lack any real system to do so.  They are highly flawed, and really just an exploit/grief fest.

Black Desert nailed it on this one.  It follows the exact trend as every other trash pvp game.  The damage is completely ridiculous and in many cases it's not even actual pvp. You slap together a few buttons and the fight is over.  It's so bad it doesn't even qualify as PVP because there is no (VS versus).

The future of BDO PVP --- Lets look at history to understand what will happen over the next few years.  No game in history has ever taken a trash system like this and made it work.  Even games that lasted 5-10 years never once had a single update with reasonable pvp.  Every single patch/update was just a blunder of excessive damage and failed mechanics.

The truth is if they where capable of making reasonable pvp system they would have done it already.  The fact is they can't.  It's not a priority and it's not on their agenda.  There may be changes over the years, but it's going to be horrible at best.

The most effective thing the developers could do would be to ignore it completely.  To not waste time on a broken system that will never be fixed.  They should focus their efforts on pve content, bosses, quests, new areas, features, etc.  Remember the success rate of games turning a system like this into a good one is 0%.

you've obviously never played EVE online.

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Posted

Since PVP is all about gear, I am pretty good at it. Speaking of which, -----, there are like 5000000 people with better gear than me. RIPPPPPP

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What is with the flood of judgmental moderators on this forum lately? 

I nominate Kat VM. xD 

My application got rejected. ridiculous.



But back on topic. BDO pvp is shit. 

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Posted

Even Minecraft has better pvp than BDO.

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Posted

I have over 20 years of experience with MMO's starting from the Dial Up days.  I'm not sure about the forum policies about mentioning other games, but I could provide several other games and their mechanics in detail.

You should be aware there are not a lot of real PVPers out there.  There are a fair amount of grief and abuse players, but when it comes down to actually wanting competitive play and being willing to lose exp/items/progress you won't find many.  The majority always comes down to bored players or those looking to hassle others, not challenging combat.

The enchantment system (copy pasted from other games) is highly flawed as well.  The cash shop agenda also has no incentive to promote better or long term game play.  The business model sadly is based around quick sales and promotions.  The cash shop will probably be a hindrance to the game mechanics and will always take precedence over improving the game.

I'm not shy, Asheron's Call Darktide server and DAOC GvG   best there have been

I think the PvPers were the target audience until they made a trainload of cash. 

 

pvp is the hook, doesn't matter how bad or good it is. This it what keeps players at the horrid rng system, This is why it is gear based instead of skill or level. I like the game but  i don't have a desire to pvp in it, I can advance at my own pace without the worry of top gear. 

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However, the system is generally superior to a much more constrained system like the one in place.  Many other games are doing sub systems such as Devillion or  Diablo 3.

The issue is that there are unlimited progression systems and pseudo ones.  Games likes Asheron's Call allowed nearly infinite character development while systems like Lineage 1 just prevented you from leveling by halting the process.

 A limited system such as leveling once per month or 6 months will encourage more to drop out than a system with more gradual small increases over time.

So how do those games allow near unlimited character development without either making the levels near meaningless or widening the gap between those with little playtime and those with lots? You call those systems superior and it just isn't true.

BDO's system already gives little increases with each level up. You actually gain more important things as you continue towards that level. You get silver to strengthen your gear and gain some stats. You also gain Skill points which are very important. 

pvp is the hook, doesn't matter how bad or good it is. This it what keeps players at the horrid rng system, This is why it is gear based instead of skill or level. I like the game but  i don't have a desire to pvp in it, I can advance at my own pace without the worry of top gear. 

Too bad, the PvP is great. You don't need awesome gear to compete and make a difference. If all you want to do is dominate everyone sure you need the absolute best gear. But there is lots of fun to be had playing the game at your own pace. My guild isn't in the top 1% and we still have lots of fun in node wars against other guilds not in the top 1%. Way too many players avoid PvP because they seem scared of it imo. That's not the games fault.

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Posted

So how do those games allow near unlimited character development without either making the levels near meaningless or widening the gap between those with little playtime and those with lots? You call those systems superior and it just isn't true.

BDO's system already gives little increases with each level up. You actually gain more important things as you continue towards that level. You get silver to strengthen your gear and gain some stats. You also gain Skill points which are very important. 

Too bad, the PvP is great. You don't need awesome gear to compete and make a difference. If all you want to do is dominate everyone sure you need the absolute best gear. But there is lots of fun to be had playing the game at your own pace. My guild isn't in the top 1% and we still have lots of fun in node wars against other guilds not in the top 1%. Way too many players avoid PvP because they seem scared of it imo. That's not the games fault.

This guy gets it.

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