• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Why is RNG in games?

102 posts in this topic

Posted

So I played Wow since launch, multiple FPS and of late, Rift, Archeage and BDO.

With WoW you attained a certainly level of gear via PvE luck or PvP time invested. Gold had a value and regardless of how long the game has lasted, there was no hyper inflation or rampant gold stripping out of the economy.

Now with Korean games. Can someone please educate us on why Korean games in particular use RNG so much?

Why do you lose items on fails?

Why do you need fails to succeed?

Why the 35% marketplace fees?

Do Korean RNG games reward those players who spend all there credits? Thus having great gear and no credits? Is it to promote paying in the cash shop?

I'd really like to get an understanding of this strategy of RNG. For me it just means disappointment through fails and loss of credits.

If everyone had +15 gear would it be that bad? Surely PvP would be better?

Anyway if someone can as I say let me know the strategy behind such negative RNG it'd be appreciated. It may make me look at the game in a different way.

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

So I played Wow since launch, multiple FPS and of late, Rift, Archeage and BDO.

With WoW you attained a certainly level of gear via PvE luck or PvP time invested. Gold had a value and regardless of how long the game has lasted, there was no hyper inflation or rampant gold stripping out of the economy.

Now with Korean games. Can someone please educate us on why Korean games in particular use RNG so much?

Why do you lose items on fails?

Why do you need fails to succeed?

Why the 35% marketplace fees?

Do Korean RNG games reward those players who spend all there credits? Thus having great gear and no credits? Is it to promote paying in the cash shop?

I'd really like to get an understanding of this strategy of RNG. For me it just means disappointment through fails and loss of credits.

If everyone had +15 gear would it be that bad? Surely PvP would be better?

Anyway if someone can as I say let me know the strategy behind such negative RNG it'd be appreciated. It may make me look at the game in a different way.

Thanks.

because it allows for a very long grind without predictable landmarks like "kill 100000 sheep." This kind of stuff bores people. Having RNG can be exciting because you may r may not have to do a lot of work and every time feels like "this is the time I will succeed."

The trick to this is making success rates high enough to keep people coming back but low enough to allow content to take a while to complete. BdO kind of fails at the first part.

also in Korean games p2w isn't hated like it is here and you can pay for failstacks- its like gambling and gambling is suuuper addictive . The game is made for Korea and ported to us but basic fundamentals don't change :/

Edited by Friendlyfireon
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

To create content and longevity where there is none.  Gating achievements behind layers of RNG prolongs the game while adding minimal costs to development.  They rely on the fact that gambling is highly addictive and keeps people playing.  

Short answer: Money.

Edited by Kejara
6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Time is money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

So I played Wow since launch, multiple FPS and of late, Rift, Archeage and BDO.

With WoW you attained a certainly level of gear via PvE luck or PvP time invested. Gold had a value and regardless of how long the game has lasted, there was no hyper inflation or rampant gold stripping out of the economy.

Now with Korean games. Can someone please educate us on why Korean games in particular use RNG so much?

Why do you lose items on fails?

Why do you need fails to succeed?

Why the 35% marketplace fees?

Do Korean RNG games reward those players who spend all there credits? Thus having great gear and no credits? Is it to promote paying in the cash shop?

I'd really like to get an understanding of this strategy of RNG. For me it just means disappointment through fails and loss of credits.

If everyone had +15 gear would it be that bad? Surely PvP would be better?

Anyway if someone can as I say let me know the strategy behind such negative RNG it'd be appreciated. It may make me look at the game in a different way.

Thanks.

what is preventing you from getting +15? If everyone get max gear in a week. Everyone woulf quit in 2 week because the dev cannot shit out contents. Only way to do it is by creating instance pvp, aka a moba.

Edited by zeroisk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Some say its an evil ploy to get us all hooked on gambling. But if that's true, it's failed on me. I get such bad RNG in this and other games I don't even want to play slot machines anymore.

Edited by Drustein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

RNG create excitement and gear destruction curbs the power creep.

Let's look at non RNG games like WoW and FF14.  All they do is make you do a task X amount of times to get a reward, let people have at it for a while, up the numbers on the gear a bit and make you do it all over again in an endless vertical treadmill.

This is incredibly boring for many as well.  RNG is frustrating when you fail but very satisfying when you succeed.  You don't get any of this with the checkbox task systems.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Why is RNG in games?

It's a cultural bias on Asian developed games like this. Asians love to gamble, back in 2010, the Asia market became the largest/biggest gambling region in the world. These people pour money on crap like this every day. Back then, that industry swelled to revenues of up of $122 Billion US dollars! So you can imagine how attractive this kind of garbage is to them. The second largest market for that kind of stuff is Europe, so you will notice that not many Euros will be complaining about it. Again, this is 6 years ago, that market has grown even more with the pass of time

Most of the distress and critical reviews about this kind of practice come from the American continent and even though a big market, it will never be as big as the combined Asian and European ones. In any case, this will not change, unless these Korean (or any Asian) developers design a mechanic that does not base all progression on casino like methods.

Reference: http://www.gbgc.com/asia-becomes-worlds-biggest-gambling-region/

Edited by Kasathar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

i always say bdo is like an online casino.... casinos, gambling have existed for hundreds of years if not more.... people love gambling... thats all

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

also in Korean games p2w isn't hated like it is here and you can pay for failstacks- its like gambling and gambling is suuuper addictive . The game is made for Korea and ported to us but basic fundamentals don't change :/

#removefailstacks

#removecashstacks

If the system wasn't based on cash shop tactics it would be a lot better.  And if you had to include cash shop items you could still make it a lot better

25% Chance 35% With Cash Shop item

+6 Req: 3 Stones

+7 Req: 5 Stones etc

It's consistent and simple.  If it's not hardcore enough just slant that stone req at the high end.

You don't need to go look up failstack charts and guess at which info is correct.  It's all right in front of you provided by the game not outside content.

Edited by 2Cents
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

RNG isn't exclusive to Korean games, and if you think it is, you don't really understand what RNG is.  Also, the 35% marketplace tax is like.. the opposite of RNG.  It's a constant value.

 

KR games implement RNG in a casino-like style

 

but pretty much ALL games rely on RNG for a good portion of their mechanics because games without any randomness are entirely predictable and boring.

 

RNG is actually pretty interesting.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Edited by Anemone
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

RNG isn't exclusive to Korean games, and if you think it is, you don't really understand what RNG is.

Thanks for all the answers. Very educating responses.

I understand RNG is in most games. Crit chance, damage roles, bounces etc. I like to play BDO, but my mentality won't allow me to suffer losses to progress. I'm not a gambling person.

I would rather pay real money to buy +15 than to lose all my in game credits and have to grind to recover it. Is that pay2win or is that pay not to be aggravated and pissed off? LOL

You see I'll never be a top skilled player. I can have the same or even better gear as the number one player and I'd still lose in a 1v1.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I like to play BDO, but my mentality won't allow me to suffer losses to progress. I'm not a gambling person.

glad to be educational c:

 

Loss of progress (breakage/downgrading) is actually not an issue of RNG! 

Whether you succeed or not relies on RNG, downgrading and breakage are separate mechanics (though whether or not they occur does rely on RNG).  IMO both of these mechanics should just be removed entirely, with the trade off that it's slightly harder to succeed at enchanting.  People get far more frustrated when they go backwards vs just being stuck (in terms of progression).

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

#removefailstacks

#removecashstacks

If the system wasn't based on cash shop tactics it would be a lot better.  And if you had to include cash shop items you could still make it a lot better

25% Chance 35% With Cash Shop item

+6 Req: 3 Stones

+7 Req: 5 Stones etc

It's consistent and simple.  If it's not hardcore enough just slant that stone req at the high end.

You don't need to go look up failstack charts and guess at which info is correct.  It's all right in front of you provided by the game not outside content.

Maybe what they can do is once the game player leaders have headed to new features, they back fill for us lowbies?  Maybe +15 should now be available without any fails like it is now for +5 on armour?

Thus the people good at the game still do what they want (People at +20 and level 60) and we still progress but behind the wave front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Because RNG makes a game a game for years, what's the point of playing a game that you can get top tier equipment easily? The game would be completed within a month or 2, RNG is input into the game so players play for longer, spend money on the cash shop and don't get bored of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Started reading.. then came the WoW statement. Then I stopped.

This isnt WoW. Dont try to connect the 2 game, ones old as hell, and is very kiddie friendly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

It's a cultural bias on Asian developed games like this. Asians love to gamble, back in 2010, the Asia market became the largest/biggest gambling region in the world. These people pour money on crap like this every day. Back then, that industry swelled to revenues of up of $122 Billion US dollars! So you can imagine how attractive this kind of garbage is to them. The second largest market for that kind of stuff is Europe, so you will notice that not many Euros will be complaining about it. Again, this is 6 years ago, that market has grown even more with the pass of time

Most of the distress and critical reviews about this kind of practice come from the American continent and even though a big market, it will never be as big as the combined Asian and European ones. In any case, this will not change, unless these Korean (or any Asian) developers design a mechanic that does not base all progression on casino like methods.

Reference: http://www.gbgc.com/asia-becomes-worlds-biggest-gambling-region/

Your avatar dictates that you shouldnt sound so salty like you have lately been, now calm down shunsui-san.

 

Anyways, RNG in games make them feel to your average joe, more exciting. and Excitement goes hand in hand with fun.

 

You've played games and experienced "holy crap I got the thing! I GOT IT! LOOK AT MY THING I'M SO HAPPY!" its a nice feeling. FPS games, strategy games and such types, rely on a different way to play in order to get the fun, where RPG's and MMORPG's aren't meant to be flat like those other genres, they are meant to be "like your daily life", aka unpredictable. 

Take wow for example, its got RNG in it, albeit different algorithms, theres RNG; every boss has a loot table, and its random what you get. WoW has also made it so that people will be secured items, and theres no amount of bad RNG in the game that can happen to not reward you in the end. its not as harsh, but in return people now flock away from the game as deep down, I think most people like the random unpredictability more than welfare items and rewards for doing nothing at all.

Look at BDO, we hate the RNG system, but at the end of the day without trolling or just being blind and ignorant, think about it. It is nice because you can't predict what happens tomorrow. You can assume, and throw maths at it, but you can't predict it, you can't predict  your opponent, or the gear you'll get or not, you can't predict what happens, me personally, i love that. I love that in a sense, I cannot controll every aspect of my character. Being able to do so, or be secured loot, in an MMO or RPG would be very dull. 

Install skyrim, you've never played it before, now before you do anything or move an inch, max your level, give yourself the best items in the game. That is what I think it would feel like, because lets face it, BDO with really good gear, stuff just melts around you, if you are +15 you have a massive challange, and most players are immortal when you hit them.

RNG exists to make stuff exciting, to make things intruiging, to make you go "YES HALLELUJAH!" then get filled with glee when something goes your way. Much like gambling. But that also leads to the thing, be responsible, if you know you easily get addicted to stuff, don't deny it, just get help with it so gambling and games wont consume your life. 

Edited by Kezha
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

RNG based for excitement

example:

BDO is RNG based

GW2 is certainty based

BDO is exciting, GW2 is not

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

There is no bad RNG, just bad RNG algorithms. Sadly most of BDO's implemented are just bad.

Sources: my degree in IT and 20 years writing code for $

7 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

In my opinion RNG is the cheapest and easiest way to develop games. Just recycle content with RNG instead of investing in making a new one. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Your avatar dictates that you shouldnt sound so salty like you have lately been, now calm down shunsui-san.

 

Anyways, RNG in games make them feel to your average joe, more exciting. and Excitement goes hand in hand with fun.

 

You've played games and experienced "holy crap I got the thing! I GOT IT! LOOK AT MY THING I'M SO HAPPY!" its a nice feeling. FPS games, strategy games and such types, rely on a different way to play in order to get the fun, where RPG's and MMORPG's aren't meant to be flat like those other genres, they are meant to be "like your daily life", aka unpredictable. 

Take wow for example, its got RNG in it, albeit different algorithms, theres RNG; every boss has a loot table, and its random what you get. WoW has also made it so that people will be secured items, and theres no amount of bad RNG in the game that can happen to not reward you in the end. its not as harsh, but in return people now flock away from the game as deep down, I think most people like the random unpredictability more than welfare items and rewards for doing nothing at all.

Look at BDO, we hate the RNG system, but at the end of the day without trolling or just being blind and ignorant, think about it. It is nice because you can't predict what happens tomorrow. You can assume, and throw maths at it, but you can't predict it, you can't predict  your opponent, or the gear you'll get or not, you can't predict what happens, me personally, i love that. I love that in a sense, I cannot controll every aspect of my character. Being able to do so, or be secured loot, in an MMO or RPG would be very dull. 

Install skyrim, you've never played it before, now before you do anything or move an inch, max your level, give yourself the best items in the game. That is what I think it would feel like, because lets face it, BDO with really good gear, stuff just melts around you, if you are +15 you have a massive challange, and most players are immortal when you hit them.

RNG exists to make stuff exciting, to make things intruiging, to make you go "YES HALLELUJAH!" then get filled with glee when something goes your way. Much like gambling. But that also leads to the thing, be responsible, if you know you easily get addicted to stuff, don't deny it, just get help with it so gambling and games wont consume your life. 

Except there isn't really anything unpredictable. You go out grind, and repeat the same thing everyday. Nothing actually changes how you play. All RNG does is decide if you get rewarded or not for your efforts during that day. I have yet to get filled with glee over rng deciding that I got an item or upgrade. I've been filled with glee in Dark Souls games, completing level 1 runs, going 50 and 2 back in Day of Defeat, successfully convincing two criminals to fight each other in UO and then cashing in on the bounty. Those were feelings of glee. Pulling off something that had to do with my actual efforts. Not some dice roll. Even back in my table top D&D days, rng played less of a role there than in this game when it comes to progressing my character and how effective it is.

See WoW, actually has an much more difficult activity tied to getting its gear, even though it is rng, and the drops were more common for smaller numbers of people than in this game, meaning you rewarded more for your effort in general. Here, you show up to a boss and are there from beginning to end, constantly DPSing and get nothing. That ranger shot the boss a few time then afk'd and gets boss armor. A complete disconnect from effort equaling reward. RNG is a big big reason why Asian styled MMOs do not do that well in the west. It is a lazy mechanic for prolonging dull content instead of making actual engaging content that the player wants to do repeatedly.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

RNG exists to make stuff exciting, to make things intruiging, to make you go "YES HALLELUJAH!" then get filled with glee when something goes your way. Much like gambling. 

Is it really exciting? I find "working for something" step by step, overcoming obstacles but always coming a bit closer to the goal I am dreaming about actually exciting and rewarding. Gambling is just frustrating for me.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

There is no bad RNG, just bad RNG algorithms. Sadly most of BDO's implemented are just bad.

Sources: my degree in IT and 20 years writing code for $

What about educating us and share your findings instead of quoting your background which doesn't help anyone ?

More insight into how random is done is always interesting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

to prevent people from getting bis geared too fast and to prevent a mass gear race, all in all rng is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Except there isn't really anything unpredictable. You go out grind, and repeat the same thing everyday. Nothing actually changes how you play. All RNG does is decide if you get rewarded or not for your efforts during that day. I have yet to get filled with glee over rng deciding that I got an item or upgrade. I've been filled with glee in Dark Souls games, completing level 1 runs, going 50 and 2 back in Day of Defeat, successfully convincing two criminals to fight each other in UO and then cashing in on the bounty. Those were feelings of glee. Pulling off something that had to do with my actual efforts. Not some dice roll. Even back in my table top D&D days, rng played less of a role there than in this game when it comes to progressing my character and how effective it is.

See WoW, actually has an much more difficult activity tied to getting its gear, even though it is rng, and the drops were more common for smaller numbers of people than in this game, meaning you rewarded more for your effort in general. Here, you show up to a boss and are there from beginning to end, constantly DPSing and get nothing. That ranger shot the boss a few time then afk'd and gets boss armor. A complete disconnect from effort equaling reward. RNG is a big big reason why Asian styled MMOs do not do that well in the west. It is a lazy mechanic for prolonging dull content instead of making actual engaging content that the player wants to do repeatedly.

You can end up getting items and loot, or not, you can't predict that. in a non RNG setting, you can be 100% certain that killing 100 sheeps will give you X item.  

Not throwing DS into the equation as that is an unforgiving game and gives you the glee because you master it, few people seem to want that kind of challange over a prolonged time. I agree that a DS way would be more fun, but in the normal world people would likely just get really annoyed by it in the end, because its a game that perfectly blames you and nothing else for screwing up xP

 

Is it really exciting? I find "working for something" step by step, overcoming obstacles but always coming a bit closer to the goal I am dreaming about actually exciting and rewarding. Gambling is just frustrating for me.

Putting it on a edge, if you grind every day, like I mentioned you can't predict the outcome of what you get, but you can still work towards a goal, i've been grinding to get the ancient core set, enough to PRI at least both pieces. in the process i've gotten one ancient core, and enough silver to buy a second. essentially, RNG gave me one, and my own work gave me the second.

Just look at my post history, I don't claim BDO RNG is fun, or a saint, but its sadly more in line with what a true RNG actually is (imo) and there are hidden stuff (imo) but the psychological parts of what true RNG is towards what you get, can feel incredibly unfair. but at the end of the day if you think about it. It could be worse, everyone could be identical, the same gear, the same everything, nothing left to really... go for. you would grind grind grind to get X thing, then move and grind grind grind for Y thing, and that would either end up going fast, or take ages, and you would burn out fast as hell, either becasue lack of stuff to go for, or because theres no real reason to go for anything.

Everyone with max stuff... what can you do? run around and gank people, wait for sieges, life skills and that is about it, at max grinding wouldn't be worth the time. I think RNG really keeps that aspect of stuff in bay, and we have a reason to grind, a reason to farm a reason to life skill and a reason to do stuff in total, and this given in a RPG and MMORPG, other games do not fall into the same reasoning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites