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234 posts in this topic

Posted

I was about to reply to that until he just called logic and common sense "spiritual pseudo science"

Is the Earth flat as well?

I know man he's a -----ing running gag, some people are freaking immuned to reason, i just, -----, this has to be the thread of the year

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Posted

Seriously, though.

Y'all think you can just play an MMO for free forever without any cash shop incentives?

Explain to me how every other MMO in history can have a cash shop with items that are seeded into the virtual economy except this one.

 

The game is B2P.

The model should incorporate a non-p2win cash shop for cosmetics and minor conveniences, not items that seriously affect economy and lead to major advantages and power/stature.

The game is B2P, if they really want money to cover salaries and future development, stick with that B2P model but ensure they use a better term, namely B2P+. I.e. obviously I do not expect to pay for the game once then get access to tons of new content in the unforeseeable future. No, the B2P+, the + sign being paramount here, points to the fact that there will be paid expansions/DLCs (if you will) for major new content expansions.

Right now we've caught up to KR with Valencia, etc. but from now on, PA needs to make new areas that are restricted unless you paid for access to them by buying the expansion.

THAT is the way forward, do the research publishers, if you release an MMO game as B2P, you damn well better make sure you know it's not P2P and not F2P either.

Scrap your P2W ideas for the cash store, get working on those future expansions and your players will be happy and dish out money for those packs when they come. And keep your cash shop purely cosmetic with minor buffs/convenience items that you don't let players sell for in-game money.

BUT if accessibility to those items are really a concern, add a feature to convert your in-game silver to pearls.

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Posted

At some shitty community college? No good uni will take a highschool dropout.

Guess you'll never know~
I don't know of any community colleges that teach cyber forensics though.

Anywho.
Is what I'm saying what you correlate with? Or am I incorrect in what I assume you're claiming.

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Posted

Careful, your elitism is showing. I guess all non-uni people don't matter. Only ivy-league grads can play BDO guys. 

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Posted

Guess you'll never know~I don't know of any community colleges that teach cyber forensics though.

Anywho.
Is what I'm saying what you correlate with? Or am I incorrect in what I assume you're claiming.

God those words are so big. What do they mean?

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Posted

The game is B2P.

The model should incorporate a non-p2win

Please cite definitive sources.

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Posted

 

BUT if accessibility to those items are really a concern, add a feature to convert your in-game silver to pearls.

How is that different from the community making cash shop items available in the marketplace?

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Posted

How is that different from the community making cash shop items available in the marketplace?

Well, the company loses money if people can buy pearls out of an NPC, as opposed to receiving them from a player who purchased them with capital.

What he's asking for effectively hurts the company as much as the people incapable of affording a life style they wish they could.

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Posted

Guess you'll never know~I don't know of any community colleges that teach cyber forensics though.

Anywho.
Is what I'm saying what you correlate with? Or am I incorrect in what I assume you're claiming.

You can't fool me. Someone that bad at basic maths can never get a STEM degree from any respectable institutions.

Please cite definitive sources.

http://bfy.tw/74pQ

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Posted

How is that different from the community making cash shop items available in the marketplace?

Because it doesn't let cash shop items be purchased for sale on the marketplace. It only gives players an option to use their silver to convert to pearls and buy those items for their own, personal use.

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Posted (edited)

You can't fool me. Someone that bad at basic maths can never get a STEM degree from any respectable institutions.

http://bfy.tw/74pQ

I fool many people, though.
It's literally a building block in my career.
Or something.

Definitive sources that outline a standard regarding what B2P and F2P models should follow, is what I was asking for a citation for.
Sorry, forgot I have to slow things down for you.

But if you're done with our topic, I'm going to get on with my day lmao.

PS. Cisco Certz > college.
Dis r fact.

Edited by War

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Posted

I fool many people, though.
It's literally a building block in my career.
Or something.

Definitive sources that outline a standard regarding what B2P and F2P models should follow, is what I was asking for a citation for.
Sorry, forgot I have to slow things down for you.

But if you're done with our topic, I'm going to get on with my day lmao.

Yes, go, fly away butterfly, i'm sure someone needs your expertise to launch a couple satellites into space a few hours from now ~

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Posted

You can't fool me. Someone that bad at basic maths can never get a STEM degree from any respectable institutions.

http://bfy.tw/74pQ

No, I think @War actually referred to why I said B2P _should_ incorporate a non-p2win cash shop.

There's lots of articles, here's one with a breakdown of the different models http://pvsgaming.com/mmogaming/mmo-payment-model-evolution/ while I see if I can find the one I read back when I researched this topic a few years ago (before ESO launched when payment models again was a hot potato).

Basically, cash shop is ideally never p2win but freemium/F2P games seem to get away with it, but for P2P or B2P titles to let their cash shops be anything other than cosmetic or with convenience items (time-advancement), well, you see the ruckus on here now...

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Posted

Yes, go, fly away butterfly, i'm sure someone needs your expertise to launch a couple satellites into space a few hours from now ~

Hope he gets the numbers right. Or it might be like that time North Korea tried to launch one :(

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Posted

No, I think @War actually referred to why I said B2P _should_ incorporate a non-p2win cash shop.

There's lots of articles, here's one with a breakdown of the different models http://pvsgaming.com/mmogaming/mmo-payment-model-evolution/ while I see if I can find the one I read back when I researched this topic a few years ago (before ESO launched when payment models again was a hot potato).

Btw, @War says definitive sources... doubt you'll find any book of regulations about how it has to be exactly, but there is a general consensus about these models and that's all I can back it up with. And you can see from history which games are tanking when they stray from what's accepted.

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Posted

Yes, go, fly away butterfly, i'm sure someone needs your expertise to launch a couple satellites into space a few hours from now ~

I can configure networking protocols on them(depending, of course), among a few other things I learned while doing shit in life. I don't know how to launch them.
But configuring networking protocols on any node on a network is rather... Basic. Lol.

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Posted

Btw, @War says definitive sources... doubt you'll find any book of regulations about how it has to be exactly, but there is a general consensus about these models and that's all I can back it up with. And you can see from history which games are tanking when they stray from what's accepted.

Pls why do you even try? He's obviously here to troll.

You can't have definite sources without having authorities on the subject. There is no such thing as P2W expert or w/e, so you can never have a definite source in the first place.

I can configure networking protocols on them(depending, of course), among a few other things I learned while doing shit in life. I don't know how to launch them.
But configuring networking protocols on any node on a network is rather... Basic. Lol.

Yes it is very basic lol.

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Posted

Btw, @War says definitive sources... doubt you'll find any book of regulations about how it has to be exactly, but there is a general consensus about these models and that's all I can back it up with. And you can see from history which games are tanking when they stray from what's accepted.

I understand what you're saying. My biggest issue with this is that people will each assume that others understand their subjective understanding of the term they are using, and attempt to make a change / prove a point / etc. based on this understanding.

It's the big miscommunication (allowed) between Kakaogames/PA and the playerbase at the moment.
Their definition of Pay to Win(In this case, should be most dominant, as it's their game), is different than what people bring to the table and are trying to argue.

SO now, because no one is defining what they want others to understand, we get this miscommunication, finger pointing, blaming, devoid of trust, etc, based on.... Not explaining what we want others to understand.

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Posted

I'm not saying they won't ever go down the pay2win route, but I am definitely saying it's hyperbolic to call the new system pay2win. I can't name a successful MMO in the last decade which doesn't do this already.
Archeage is also pretty easy to identify as pay2win. Why? Because you can straight up buy labor (energy) and experience. You can literally pay to be the highest level. I know, because I did it.

This game ain't even close to pay2win. Barely even pay2play at this point. The Value Pack is soft money and definitely not required. Ever play SWTOR? Gotta pay if you want any kind of warehouse space at all. They also have a cashshop-to-ingameshop system and it works quite well imo. Granted, anyone and everyone can also get into full-spec pvp gear within a couple weeks... but pvp also isn't the main point of the game. PVE  is end-game, and while you could potentially buy enough in-game currency to possibly buy an end-game pve weapon... most people run the dungeons because it's much more satisfying to actually find it and upgrade it yourself.

So imagine for a moment that perhaps, both ethos could exist simultaneously. Some people who'd rather spend $1000 and get it in a month, or people who'd rather spend the time and get it in 5 or 6. It can happen, and it does.

I can... path of exile? And those examples you gave have completely different mechanics than BDO. If it was OWPVP then sure, but it isn't and the game is designed completely around gear. Also, those who are in favour of it are mainly two groups of people; the casuals and those who want to pay to win. The casuals don't understand being at the top so to them, it make no difference other than they can not spend even less money on the game because they can casually accumulate cash shop items. Those who want to p2w, well I don't need to explain how scummy that is. 

 

Those who are complaining are either those who are at the top through the work of grinding and playing, or those who don't want to be even further at the bottom of the barrel as they can't compete with someone who can afford to buy and sell 5 costumes a week.

 

Your argument is flawed in every way. Yu cannot use other games logic here but other games don't revolve around the ams mechanics! And you obviously aren't at the top otherwise you would know this. Yes, Kakao will be catering g to those with more money, but they will be trading out those who drive the game in the manor it was suppose t be, pvp, for that. Fair enough, they want money more than players, but that never ends well. 

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Posted

Pls why do you even try? He's obviously here to troll.

You can't have definite sources without having authorities on the subject. There is no such thing as P2W expert or w/e, so you can never have a definite source in the first place.

Yes it is very basic lol.

Very few of my almost 4000 posts are made with the intent to troll. But if you'd like to call it that to feel better about your inferiority, feel free o_O

That's my point. Too many viewpoints and "dis is what it is" calling for any case / definition to be taken seriously.

I mean. Router is a router rite?
Be it satellite, or a module in your modulate/demodulate system.

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Posted

Very few of my almost 4000 posts are made with the intent to troll. But if you'd like to call it that to feel better about your inferiority, feel free o_O

I agree, which is why I gave you an answer to that and linked one such article, and I agree, without authorities on this subject, there's misunderstanding and miscommunication as PA/Kakako believes P2win is one thing while EU/NA now is in flames because it's exactly what we fear. 

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Posted (edited)

I understand where the argument of increasing probability works on failstacks to a degree, but every example quoted for the failstacks assumed the max (or the cap) for that level of enhancement (ie: 25 max stacks for +14 -> +15, 15 max failstacks for a PRI attempt on gear).

I think the independent events probability still applies there since, after you've reached that cap for failstacks, your probability stops increasing, at least based on data-mined game mechanics which is where those max failstack charts come from. No matter how much silver you throw at them, beyond those caps, the chance remains the same each time.

I think. (unless the charts are pulled from made-up data and there is no cap, then there's that)

Edited by Sinshalai

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Posted

I agree, which is why I gave you an answer to that and linked one such article, and I agree, without authorities on this subject, there's misunderstanding and miscommunication as PA/Kakako believes P2win is one thing while EU/NA now is in flames because it's exactly what we fear. 

Many of my posts in rebuttal are not because I disagree with peoples stance on a subject.
It's because I disagree with how it's presented.
It's because I know what the higher probable outcome will be haha.
So far, I've yet to be incorrect. I'll blame this on my experience in the working field though.

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Posted (edited)

This is my favourite logic right here:
"The game is going to die because people are going to start spending more money on it."

Yeah, guys! Remember when PLEX killed EVE? Or when WoW died because you can directly buy currency with real money?

There definitely aren't any successful or long running MMOs with this kind of economy...

 

This is the kind of stupid logic that people apply when they have no idea what their on about in any way shape or form.

 

Look at WoW, a really succsesfull game, peopel claim it is dying, which is dumb i'll agree, and that "bla bla bla this will kill the game" sure its empty whining, but look at it, people are flocking away, the game people loved and want to play, the game the majority wants to play and have fun with, is no more. 

Most top guilds threw in the towel in WoW and what are you left with? the leftovers. someone else will now be "top tier" but that is a top tier of people who simply "win by default". They where always in sub 50 world, yet now they are first because everyone infront of them quit. And yes, Legion will get a lot of people back again, but for how long? the game hasn't changed, the beta being beta and the game itself still plays like a half dead slug, looks like one and the only reason I think many stayed for so long was that their friends played. But just like every expansion, you'll see a massive boom in players, then it'll just keep on going down again, it is called a negative trend, and it is those that "kill" games.

Its pretty darn obvious that this is happening in BDO left and right as people say. I play in the addicted community in croxus, and along with all the other top guilds, sanguine, marauders, ember, shadowelite and more all are up in arms, the channel chat floods, people destroy their gear and are already quitting.

And should this shit go live, so many people will most likely, presumable throw in the towel straight off on wednesday, or throw in the towel shortly after. Leaving all the remaining people to win by default because those better left. and create a true niche game that will require server merges, and will compared to now feel extremely empty.

it does not kill the game, but you chop of its arms and legs and stand by as it bleeds out, that is what people mean when they say something kills and MMO, because an MMO will never just get shut off because suddenly less people play, the servers remain open for years and years and years.

People can truly neglect or deny that as much as they want but yeah, you can't kill an MMO, nothing will really "make the game seize to exist" but these kind of things kill and bleed out  MMORPG's and have done and keep doing it no matter the title in that they end up losing so many players over a short time and create such bad rep with the game that it keeps people from wanting to even try. Such is life of negative trends.

Black Desert is a really awesome game, it has fast paced and fun combat, unforgiving as -----, and the RNG is to kill yourself over at times, the explorations is mind boggling, I still spend hours randomly wandering about finding cave systems leading down into mountains, deeper and deeper and deeper, i'm sure at some point i'll finda -----ing town in one of them or a balrog who knows, theres so many and their so big, and the exploration value for those who care is immense, the entire game is fun and reminds us of how important it is to not rely on a game dev to hold your hand. How good it feels to accomplish something on your own. The news about this massive P2W has already put a tank sized hole in the side of the ship, all that is missing is for it to detonate next wednesday, and I truly and honest to god hope daum, kakao and PA manages to grow a pair of brain cells and realize its better to diffuse it than to detonate it if they want to make money. 

Edited by Kezha

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Posted

 

This is the kind of stupid logic that people apply when they have no idea what their on about in any way shape or form.

 

Look at WoW, a really succsesfull game, peopel claim it is dying, which is dumb i'll agree, and that "bla bla bla this will kill the game" sure its empty whining, but look at it, people are flocking away, the game people loved and want to play, the game the majority wants to play and have fun with, is no more. 

Most top guilds threw in the towel in WoW and what are you left with? the leftovers. someone else will now be "top tier" but that is a top tier of people who simply "win by default". They where always in sub 50 world, yet now they are first because everyone infront of them quit. And yes, Legion will get a lot of people back again, but for how long? the game hasn't changed, the beta being beta and the game itself still plays like a half dead slug, looks like one and the only reason I think many stayed for so long was that their friends played. But just like every expansion, you'll see a massive boom in players, then it'll just keep on going down again, it is called a negative trend, and it is those that "kill" games.

Its pretty darn obvious that this is happening in BDO left and right as people say. I play in the addicted community in croxus, and along with all the other top guilds, sanguine, marauders, ember, shadowelite and more all are up in arms, the channel chat floods, people destroy their gear and are already quitting.

And should this shit go live, so many people will most likely, presumable throw in the towel straight off on wednesday, or throw in the towel shortly after. Leaving all the remaining people to win by default because those better left. and create a true niche game that will require server merges, and will compared to now feel extremely empty.

it does not kill the game, but you chop of its arms and legs and stand by as it bleeds out, that is what people mean when they say something kills and MMO, because an MMO will never just get shut off because suddenly less people play, the servers remain open for years and years and years.

People can truly neglect or deny that as much as they want but yeah, you can't kill an MMO, nothing will really "make the game seize to exist" but these kind of things kill and bleed out  MMORPG's and have done and keep doing it no matter the title in that they end up losing so many players over a short time and create such bad rep with the game that it keeps people from wanting to even try. Such is life of negative trends.

Black Desert is a really awesome game, it has fast paced and fun combat, unforgiving as -----, and the RNG is to kill yourself over at times, the explorations is mind boggling, I still spend hours randomly wandering about finding cave systems leading down into mountains, deeper and deeper and deeper, i'm sure at some point i'll finda -----ing town in one of them or a balrog who knows, theres so many and their so big, and the exploration value for those who care is immense, the entire game is fun and reminds us of how important it is to not rely on a game dev to hold your hand. How good it feels to accomplish something on your own. The news about this massive P2W has already put a tank sized hole in the side of the ship, all that is missing is for it to detonate next wednesday, and I truly and honest to god hope daum, kakao and PA manages to grow a pair of brain cells and realize its better to diffuse it than to detonate it if they want to make money. 

MMO's are revolving doors, everyone knows that. I've been gaming for over 20 years and it has always been the case. People leave, new blood arrives...that will never change, what it comes down to is whether the end figure is enough to sustain servers. We outgrow the game and go looking for that elusive game that will hold our attention for more than a heartbeat, we also delude ourselves that the next one is going to be everything we want in a game...never going to happen. BDO is as close to my ideal gaming experience as I have gotten and worrying about what others have or have not is a surefire way for me to lose the enjoyment I derive from it so I concern myself with my gameplay...not with everyone else's. 

Daum/PA is not going to implement a system that destroys their profit margin so if this update does go live, you can bet their marketing department assessed the potential damage and considered it a valid risk versus reward exercise. I guess we will wait and see.

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