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Some History of Kakao Game's Stance on P2W


34 posts in this topic

Posted

I've seen several posts linking to a PM diary @PM_Belsazar posted pre-launch saying; 

cs2.thumb.png.37b48e8d4c00a475a48aedf3d4

I'd like to show you some other instances of Kakao Games/Daum Games EU talking about their views on the cash shop and p2w.

http://2p.com/37503646_1/Black-Desert-Online-Cash-Shop-and-Item-Price-Still-in-Development-by-cindyhio.htm

cs1.thumb.png.dfa5d5fc6838074aa4d1d09138

 

@1:32;

Q: "B2P, why? Why is this choice, it's a ballsy move. So why did you decide to do B2P instead of P2P or F2P?"

Marketing Director Rick van Beem of Daum Games EU.
A: "That's a tough question for me to answer, but i'll try to elaborate here; First of all, I think that the F2P market, especially on mmorpgs, is a very crowded one. Secondly, we believe that Black Desert Online, as a game, [is] of good enough quality, that we can actually ask for money up front. It will also help to balance the game, because we don't have to use F2P, P2W antics to earn money. So the business model will actually help the game become a more balanced product than, for instance, the game that exists in other territories. Our western version will differ in many ways from the version that are out in other markets, and the B2P business model will help us really balance the game. So basically once the game [comes out], hopefully in Q1 next year, players buy the game once, and they can just play it whenever. There's no subscription model, we do have a cash shop, but that cash shop will mostly, only sell vanity items and some convenience items, but nothing that relates to a P2W model."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am worried that the cash shop will interfere with my enjoyment of the game. I remember pre-launch the conversation on payment models was all about how the NA/EU regions would be different than the others. That was the biggest reason they had to back up why our region was getting a B2P model. Now they're telling us the exact opposite; 

cs3.thumb.png.06d5730c133b1e2c2c848c7719

This is quoted from @PM_Jouska's updated thread on "In-Game Accessibility to Pearl Shop Items". 

 

Anyway, I just thought it would be good to give the community more information on Daum/Kakao's flip-flopping view on our business model. Take from it what you want. 

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Posted

Some good stuff here too, even if it's from a (at the time) CM.

 

 

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Posted

 I remember pre-launch the conversation on payment models was all about how the NA/EU regions would be different than the others

well, it is different, we were dumb enough to pay for a game that is in no way different to its F2P counterparts :D
at best it's worse then the KR version haha 

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Posted (edited)

I've seen several posts linking to a PM diary @PM_Belsazar posted pre-launch saying; 

cs2.thumb.png.37b48e8d4c00a475a48aedf3d4

I'd like to show you some other instances of Kakao Games/Daum Games EU talking about their views on the cash shop and p2w.

http://2p.com/37503646_1/Black-Desert-Online-Cash-Shop-and-Item-Price-Still-in-Development-by-cindyhio.htm

cs1.thumb.png.dfa5d5fc6838074aa4d1d09138

 

@1:32;

Q: "B2P, why? Why is this choice, it's a ballsy move. So why did you decide to do B2P instead of P2P or F2P?"

Marketing Director Rick van Beem of Daum Games EU.
A: "That's a tough question for me to answer, but i'll try to elaborate here; First of all, I think that the F2P market, especially on mmorpgs, is a very crowded one. Secondly, we believe that Black Desert Online, as a game, [is] of good enough quality, that we can actually ask for money up front. It will also help to balance the game, because we don't have to use F2P, P2W antics to earn money. So the business model will actually help the game become a more balanced product than, for instance, the game that exists in other territories. Our western version will differ in many ways from the version that are out in other markets, and the B2P business model will help us really balance the game. So basically once the game [comes out], hopefully in Q1 next year, players buy the game once, and they can just play it whenever. There's no subscription model, we do have a cash shop, but that cash shop will mostly, only sell vanity items and some convenience items, but nothing that relates to a P2W model."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am worried that the cash shop will interfere with my enjoyment of the game. I remember pre-launch the conversation on payment models was all about how the NA/EU regions would be different than the others. That was the biggest reason they had to back up why our region was getting a B2P model. Now they're telling us the exact opposite; 

cs3.thumb.png.06d5730c133b1e2c2c848c7719

This is quoted from @PM_Jouska's updated thread on "In-Game Accessibility to Pearl Shop Items". 

 

Anyway, I just thought it would be good to give the community more information on Daum/Kakao's flip-flopping view on our business model. Take from it what you want. 

 

Lies!

 

All of this interviews from facebooks and youtube were done befor the Diary was posted:

Untitled232311.thumb.png.2d395f30f757e52

They change their stance on January 15th in regards to Cash Shop:

Stop trying to agitate the players with your missinformation.

Edited by Tresed
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Posted

thank you for these quotes and for the sources

the European Consumer Center will appreciate this

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Posted

Stop trying to agitate the players with your missinformation.

Just because it was posted before the PM diary, doesn't automatically make it misinformation. These are all accurate sources and quotes that came from Daum EU themselves, and there was never once an announcement telling us that they had altered their views on their business model. They used these excuses to push a B2P business model on us, and then went ahead with all of the P2W garbage that the other regions have, basically going back on their word. 

That PM diary was a vaguely worded mess. Up until then we had been told P2W was never going to come to our region. Then all of a sudden we get a one sentence response, saying it "might" come. I can tell you, people were mad then, and the CMs and PMs did everything they could to quell the complaints.

Unfortunately these forums are extremely sub par and lack a functioning dev tracker. I'm not going to go through 1100+ pages of threads to find the ones with credible responses for my argument, but other users from that time can back up this assertion. 

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Posted

thank you for these quotes and for the sources

the European Consumer Center will appreciate this

 
Time to do something with unfair publishers.

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Posted

 

Lies!

 

All of this interviews from facebooks and youtube were done befor the Diary was posted:

Untitled232311.thumb.png.2d395f30f757e52

They change their stance on January 15th in regards to Cash Shop:

Stop trying to agitate the players with your missinformation.

He's not spreading any misinformation. They never claimed the game would never go pay2win. At first their stance was they thought they didn't need it. Which soon changed to not going to happen at launch. Which way way later changed to, screw you guys.. we are going pay2win. Daum never lied or never spread any misinformation either, nor did they false advertise.

 

With All of this being said.. I do not support the shift to pay2win so suddenly and imo unneeded.

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Posted

I still don't get what is the big deal with selling cash shops items on marker. We don't even know how it'll turn out. We can't see the future nor predict it. They even said they'll be control mechanisms to prevent a P2W aspects; They'll limit the cash shop items somehow. Please, stop with all this nonsense once for all and wait until they update, then you might judge. I'm pretty sure that they'll  make a pretty good job with limiting it.

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Posted

Just because it was posted before the PM diary, doesn't automatically make it misinformation. These are all accurate sources and quotes that came from Daum EU themselves, and there was never once an announcement telling us that they had altered their views on their business model. They used these excuses to push a B2P business model on us, and then went ahead with all of the P2W garbage that the other regions have, basically going back on their word. 

That PM diary was a vaguely worded mess. Up until then we had been told P2W was never going to come to our region. Then all of a sudden we get a one sentence response, saying it "might" come. I can tell you, people were mad then, and the CMs and PMs did everything they could to quell the complaints.

Unfortunately these forums are extremely sub par and lack a functioning dev tracker. I'm not going to go through 1100+ pages of threads to find the ones with credible responses for my argument, but other users from that time can back up this assertion. 

All your misinformation came befor Daum made an official stance on Cash Shop. Which is describe in the diary. Once they have done that, everything else becomes irrelevant.

Now you came here to make a post with irrelevant information, to agitate the public even more.

When the diary was released, everyone knew the hard core P2W was coming. Some even made polls about when it will happen:

 

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Posted

All your misinformation came befor Daum made an official stance on Cash Shop. Which is describe in the diary. Once they have done that, everything else becomes irrelevant.

Now you came here to make a post with irrelevant information, to agitate the public even more.

When the diary was released, everyone knew the hard core P2W was coming. Some even made polls about when it will happen:

 

How is something said in an interview by Daum EU's head of marketing and PR. not their official stance? Also, there were equally, if not more polls made about the players disinterest in a P2W cash shop.

I still don't get what is the big deal with selling cash shops items on marker. We don't even know how it'll turn out. We can't see the future nor predict it. They even said they'll be control mechanisms to prevent a P2W aspects; They'll limit the cash shop items somehow. Please, stop with all this nonsense once for all and wait until they update, then you might judge. I'm pretty sure that they'll  make a pretty good job with limiting it.

It's more about the principle at this point. Daum, as a company, seems to value their paycheck over their customers. They aren't upfront about their intentions, and their reasoning for this change is the polar opposite to their reasoning on why we have a B2P model in the west, it just doesn't make sense.

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Posted (edited)

One month ago their position on Valk's Cry was...

Greetings Adventurers,

Recently there has been a concern that the item Valk's Cry would be available in our version of Black Desert.  Specifically this is in response to the following image that is being circulated.

Zqr8J2F.png?1

This has already been clarified in the Patch Notes thread via the following post;

 

In an effort to increase visibility I want to repeat the message that this item is not available in our build, it was removed due to the advantage it provided and has no place in our build.  Hopefully this clarifies the matter and debunks any concerns that you may have had regarding this matter.

 

Thank you to everyone who called this to our attention, the in-game reference to this will be removed as soon as possible.

So they told us a month ago that the Valk's Cry item was being kept out of our version because of the advantage (P2W) it provided, saying that it had no place in our build. This led players to believe that they were still trying to keep P2W out of our version.

 

 

Then the Value Pack and cash shop items being sold on the marketplace was announced.

Edited by scau

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Posted

How is something said in an interview by Daum EU's head of marketing and PR. not their official stance? Also, there were equally, if not more polls made about the players disinterest in a P2W cash shop.

It's more about the principle at this point. Daum, as a company, seems to value their paycheck over their customers. They aren't upfront about their intentions, and their reasoning for this change is the polar opposite to their reasoning on why we have a B2P model in the west, it just doesn't make sense.

Whether it makes sense or not this is a game and also a business and it works like that. What don't make sense is the NO-P2W freaks that keep claiming they're the worst for breaking a promise when they never promised,lied,said or stated anything to us. The only thing they said that they'll keep most of the thing(Cash shop according the NO-P2W freaks) out in the first stage which ended few weeks ago.

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Posted

The cash shop items on market place wasn't a flip flop....

From the post you quoted, looks like they told us this was coming a long time ago.

Why freak out now?

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Posted

The cash shop items on market place wasn't a flip flop....

From the post you quoted, looks like they told us this was coming a long time ago.

Why freak out now?

Cause its the cool thing to do. 

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Posted

Whether it makes sense or not this is a game and also a business and it works like that. What don't make sense is the NO-P2W freaks that keep claiming they're the worst for breaking a promise when they never promised,lied,said or stated anything to us. The only thing they said that they'll keep most of the thing(Cash shop according the NO-P2W freaks) out in the first stage which ended few weeks ago.

sure sure re-read it and believe it. Once it is written it is definitely true haha what a Muppet

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Posted

The cash shop items on market place wasn't a flip flop....

From the post you quoted, looks like they told us this was coming a long time ago.

Why freak out now?

Whether it makes sense or not this is a game and also a business and it works like that. What don't make sense is the NO-P2W freaks that keep claiming they're the worst for breaking a promise when they never promised,lied,said or stated anything to us. The only thing they said that they'll keep most of the thing(Cash shop according the NO-P2W freaks) out in the first stage which ended few weeks ago.

The biggest point I wanted to make, which I might have not done clearly, was to show how Daum originally proposed this B2P business model as a way to differentiate our region from the rest, and as a promise to provide a "premium" service. We see now in Jouska's updated post on this matter, that they now want our model to be more like the other regions, because the players of those regions, "are preferring those features...".

This is as clear of a flip-flop as it gets.

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Posted (edited)

All the interviews are incorrect as they were in a pressure talking and responding LIVE in front of hundreds people listening and later thousands watching the interview. Also, the interviewers were forcing to ask such question only to please the viewers which is what CM did and to please BDO fans. What is stated in an official statement is only valid which says this.

Untitled232311.thumb.png.2d395f30f757e52

Edited by Kramer

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Posted

One month ago their position on Valk's Cry was...

So they told us a month ago that the Valk's Cry item was being kept out of our version because of the advantage (P2W) it provided, saying that it had no place in our build. This led players to believe that they were still trying to keep P2W out of our version.

 

 

Then the Value Pack and cash shop items being sold on the marketplace was announced.

They keep a lot  of items away from our build. Including Costumes exchange coupons, and my favorite Weapon transfer  and Life skill transfer coupons.

P2W was already in our version when they introduced Pets to the game.

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Posted (edited)

Also everyone's OPINION on what is P2W is different. You can't win with everyone. Clearly Daum/PA's vision of what P2W is different from the people complaining.

In MY opinion, putting items or stats that give a competitive advantage in PvP(excluding monetary advantage) that are only obtainable by spending money is P2W. If you can obtain such items without spending money(even if you can get it faster or easier by spending), to me this is not P2W. To me convenience items like pets that speed looting up or such, is not P2W.

Edited by Nimalla

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Posted

The biggest point I wanted to make, which I might have not done clearly, was to show how Daum originally proposed this B2P business model as a way to differentiate our region from the rest, and as a promise to provide a "premium" service. We see now in Jouska's updated post on this matter, that they now want our model to be more like the other regions, because the players of those regions, "are preferring those features...".

This is as clear of a flip-flop as it gets.

Our B2P model was failing. We were not getting enough new players to replace the quitters. Things needed to change and so they did.  Daum warned us that this might happen, and it happen.

A  lot of MMO's change their model to F2P because it's the only way for the game to survive. Star Trek Online is still alive today after 6 years, because it switched to F2P. Same with LORTO, SWTOR etc.

 

People need to stop jumping from the roof, like this is the end of the game. In Korea, JPN and Russia, it was P2W from the start and it's not a problem.

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Posted

All the interviews are incorrect as they were in a pressure talking and responding LIVE in front of hundreds people listening and later thousands watching the interview. Also, the interviewers were forcing to ask such question only to please the viewers which is what CM did and to please BDO fans. What is stated in an official statement is only valid which says this.

Untitled232311.thumb.png.2d395f30f757e52

This guy is beyond salvation. RIP

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Posted

I'm so tired of the "we don't know how it'll turn out" argument. I've used it myself. Daum comes out with some bull new slightly p2w feature and we back down because we don't know how it'll turn out? We've backed down too much and they're just doing whatever they want thoroughly destroying the integrity of BDO.

Nobody should back down until they cancel this plan or explain in detail what the price limits will be. (We all know they be KR standard 50-95m per)

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Posted

Our B2P model was failing. We were not getting enough new players to replace the quitters. Things needed to change and so they did.  Daum warned us that this might happen, and it happen.

A  lot of MMO's change their model to F2P because it's the only way for the game to survive. Star Trek Online is still alive today after 6 years, because it switched to F2P. Same with LORTO, SWTOR etc.

 

People need to stop jumping from the roof, like this is the end of the game. In Korea, JPN and Russia, it was P2W from the start and it's not a problem.

So give us the Russion option to avoid the P2W and play on a server without the possibility to sell cash shop items, can't be that hard to set up if they care about customers that thought it would be a B2P game.

People that think this new change can play on one server and the rest on the other and we never have to face someone that we think payed their way to the top. 

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Posted

Our B2P model was failing. We were not getting enough new players to replace the quitters. Things needed to change and so they did.  Daum warned us that this might happen, and it happen.

A  lot of MMO's change their model to F2P because it's the only way for the game to survive. Star Trek Online is still alive today after 6 years, because it switched to F2P. Same with LORTO, SWTOR etc.

 

People need to stop jumping from the roof, like this is the end of the game. In Korea, JPN and Russia, it was P2W from the start and it's not a problem.

The Value Packs were released last week. Shouldn't they wait to see if that turns into a substantial enough revenue stream? The B2P model didn't fail, their localisation did. They bought crappy servers, crappy 3rd party detection software, and had a crappy support team. A lot of people were already playing on those other regions and made the switch the NA/EU because of the promised pvp and cash shop differences. Both of those have been reversed and it kinda feels like a stab in the back.

To be honest I doubt this will end up being the end of the game. Most of the people complaining will end up giving in to the P2W system because of their need to stay competitive, or want to catch up to the competition. 

Also I think the reason we aren't getting many new players is because of their terrible marketing, and the fact that this game is not streamer/youtuber friendly.

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