• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

I did NOT create this -----ing post, stop linking shit posts to my account.

50 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

So once again I log on to the beautiful forums to see that yet again I'm getting notifications on some random off the wall topic about daum being p2w and just a salt mine of shit, let me go ahead and say this first and foremost;

I'M NOT A P2W CRYBABY ----- AND I DID NOT WRITE THIS POST 

 

With that said, why was this somehow tied to me?and why would I need to post it under another account? 

I would never in a million years discuss a serious non gaming related subject with this forum.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Original title: Trust integrity corporate responsibility is what drives success

 

Original message:

Companies like Apple ms Amazon succeed by having products that are supported with these ideologies. People keep buying them because they know that said product aren't being sold on false promises of maybe, if, or , later, however we deem fit.

 

then you look at trion and wonder why their products fail and their attempt to cashgrab caused a decline in growth revenue wise

Edited by Dank
7 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

People need to stop saying these games "failed". They generate revenue through p2w and then close the project to move to another one. When it comes to money vs players, companies will always choose money because that's their goal in the first place. These are no ideological entities and people should stop treating them as such.

 

From a fiscal point of view, ArcheAge and BDO might be hugely successful, the reputation getting tarnished is demonstrably worth it, otherwise these practices wouldn't still be used. It's also quite normal to see a life-cycle of any game to be planned for a maximum of 2 years. It's not much different from a shop selling out all their products cheaper to temporarily boost their revenue.

 

Please stop comparing them to molochs like Apple or Amazon, the rules for them are different and getting a financial hit to rebound in a year or two might be a feasable strategy, it's not the case for smaller endevours.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Don't insult Apple and Amazon by comparing them to this company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Don't insult Daum by comparing them to Apple.

 

Ontopic tho, I trust Daum/Kakao will do what is right, and limit the things correctly in the future, They promised it would be limited/controlled back in January. I still think they will keep there word.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Don't insult Daum by comparing them to Apple.

 

Ontopic tho, I trust Daum/Kakao will do what is right, and limit the things correctly in the future, They promised it would be limited/controlled back in January. I still think they will keep there word.

I don't trust them one bit and I don't think the idea of a "controlled" system in this case is even possible. Either the prices are very low and the players are happy but the revenue isn't boosted significantly or the prices are high and you count on the remaining playerbase (because let's be real, many are quitting) to generate enough dough to compensate the loss. I honestly do not believe there's this perfect middle ground acceptable by both sides. On wednesday they will simply show where their priorities lay and people who think customer satisfaction is the main factor will get an unpleasant wake up call.

 

Also, "limited/controlled" is very vague and open to Daum/Kakaos interpretation. What stops them from simply stating that getting 500m a week from the cashshop is alright? They clearly bend the term "p2w" to justify their actions already, why wouldn't they do it with another one?

 

Where is this trust coming from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Don't insult Daum by comparing them to Apple.

 

Ontopic tho, I trust Daum/Kakao will do what is right, and limit the things correctly in the future, They promised it would be limited/controlled back in January. I still think they will keep there word.

I trust them as much as the t5 conq horse being labeled better cuz it has better stats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The REAL question here is will we be left with just another Scarlet blade in a sense.

A terrible game that lasted 3 years and eventually shut down back in march due to the devs just unable to fix or care to fix the game.

Wonder if we'll ever hit that point, guys?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Successful relations between consumer and marketer is what drives success. If the marketer uses exact wording and leaves much of their intent in the realms of ambiguity, naturally, the consumers has every right to express their skepticism. But due to the spread of information by Daum/Hair salon saying they will never be P2W but leaving it all in obscure, fine print that "they might change it in the future" is little less than straight up lying and spreading intentional misinformation for sells.

Transparency isn't a fad, its something you maintain out of integrity as a business.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That's the problem right now, i'm not even sure about what i'm more mad at them :

- Introducing changes which allow you to be paying the game instead of playing it ? Where the ----- is gaming gone ? Is that people's idea of entertainement ? Imma start a business, if you pay me 1000$ i'll send you a ticket written "you win" on it. That's basically the same. Why the ----- even play video games to begin with if it's to skip the whole content and credit card your way to the end. I don't personally call it p2w, i just wouldn't call it gaming at all.

- Creating such a disastrous PR incident which is driving the current playerbase away, and also hurting the chances to see new players a lot since technically right now, anyone who's curious about what is BDO will be met with P2WP2WP2W RUN, IT'S A TRAP. So basically, the very fact that they even thought it'd be a good idea enough to just check if the community was ok (let alone implement the changes) was an incredibely stupid decision. I love BDO, and this PR catastrophy will drive fresh blood away p2w or not.

G -----ing G.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I made a post about this back in may. The strategy used by a lot of gaming developers to do the cash grab technique. It works for a while, but once your name is ruined you wont see profit in the west. Hence why MMOs are dying in general.

On the plus side plenty of great games keep coming out that are just for fun, well made, and the company makes money. For some reason it doesnt translate into MMOs these days because to justify expenses without introducing p2w/f2p models, a sub fee of $20-30 a month would be needed to keep it operating and providing new content.

 And I bet theres actually a large population of gamers that would be on board with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Lel. Apple, the company that sent thugs to the homes of employees and writers, uses a company with more than questionable practices for manufacturing, and that tries to patent war the competition out of business. They are not whom I think of when I think "business integrity".

Nothing about what DAUM has done is surprising, and people who bought the game without seeing this as a possible outcome were simply fooling themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That's the problem right now, i'm not even sure about what i'm more mad at them :

- Introducing changes which allow you to be paying the game instead of playing it ? Where the ----- is gaming gone ? Is that people's idea of entertainement ? Imma start a business, if you pay me 1000$ i'll send you a ticket written "you win" on it. That's basically the same. Why the ----- even play video games to begin with if it's to skip the whole content and credit card your way to the end. I don't personally call it p2w, i just wouldn't call it gaming at all.

- Creating such a disastrous PR incident which is driving the current playerbase away, and also hurting the chances to see new players a lot since technically right now, anyone who's curious about what is BDO will be met with P2WP2WP2W RUN, IT'S A TRAP. So basically, the very fact that they even thought it'd be a good idea enough to just check if the community was ok (let alone implement the changes) was an incredibely stupid decision. I love BDO, and this PR catastrophy will drive fresh blood away p2w or not.

G -----ing G.

this 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Companies like Apple ms Amazon succeed by having products that are supported with these ideologies. People keep buying them because they know that said product aren't being sold on false promises of maybe, if, or , later, however we deem fit.

 

then you look at trion and wonder why their products fail and their attempt to cashgrab caused a decline in growth revenue wise

You stupid, mentally challenged, or trolling?

Ya Apple is so good and moral they are "hiding" over $150 BILLION so they don't pay their fair share of taxes... even though they made most of their money off the U.S. they absolutely refuse to bring this money HOME so they don't have to pay taxes.

Very stand up company!  

You sad little troll! If you don't understand that Apple is one of the most evil companies than you are beyond Naive. They are so -----ing evil they refuse to let comp enthusiast build their own comps so they can keep prices -----ing HIGH!

Ya let's all kumbaya -----ing Apple, they make billions a year in profit but absolutely refuse to pay their fair share of taxes to the country that made them what they are.

Not sure if you are this stupid or just out right trolling.

I'm not calling you stupid just to be mean, but what else can I say? You are nicely dumb? You are acting amazingly not smart? 
 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

For some reason it doesnt translate into MMOs these days because to justify expenses without introducing p2w/f2p models, a sub fee of $20-30 a month would be needed to keep it operating and providing new content.

 And I bet theres actually a large population of gamers that would be on board with that.

SWTOR, TSW, TESO, and Wildstar would all like to have a word with you about how willing gamers are to pay for a $15/month subscription these days, much less a $30/month subscription.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

And all of those games had a multitude of problems OTHER than sub model. Sub model was a convenient scapegoat to explain away terrible decisions in their design process.

 SWTOR, almost no endgame to speak of for pve or pvp for the first 6 months, massive loss of players.

TSW, clunky as all hell, convoluted buggy mess.

TESO, never played...

WIldstar, forgot that to cater to hardcore guilds you need to have a casual playerbase and forgot to develop anything for them.

 

 

Sub model wasnt the downfall of those games. Failing to account for a wide variety of gamers did.

 

Simply put, you cant charge a sub for a turd.

Edited by netheren
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That's the problem right now, i'm not even sure about what i'm more mad at them :

- Introducing changes which allow you to be paying the game instead of playing it ? Where the ----- is gaming gone ? Is that people's idea of entertainement ? Imma start a business, if you pay me 1000$ i'll send you a ticket written "you win" on it. That's basically the same. Why the ----- even play video games to begin with if it's to skip the whole content and credit card your way to the end. I don't personally call it p2w, i just wouldn't call it gaming at all.

- Creating such a disastrous PR incident which is driving the current playerbase away, and also hurting the chances to see new players a lot since technically right now, anyone who's curious about what is BDO will be met with P2WP2WP2W RUN, IT'S A TRAP. So basically, the very fact that they even thought it'd be a good idea enough to just check if the community was ok (let alone implement the changes) was an incredibely stupid decision. I love BDO, and this PR catastrophy will drive fresh blood away p2w or not.

G -----ing G.

*cries in a corner*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Companies like Apple ms Amazon succeed by having products that are supported with these ideologies. People keep buying them because they know that said product aren't being sold on false promises of maybe, if, or , later, however we deem fit.

 

then you look at trion and wonder why their products fail and their attempt to cashgrab caused a decline in growth revenue wise

I expected more out of you. Go back to US guilds section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

And all of those games had a multitude of problems OTHER than sub model. Sub model was a convenient scapegoat to explain away terrible decisions in their design process.

 SWTOR, almost no endgame to speak of for pve or pvp for the first 6 months, massive loss of players.

TSW, clunky as all hell, convoluted buggy mess.

TESO, never played...

WIldstar, forgot that to cater to hardcore guilds you need to have a casual playerbase and forgot to develop anything for them.

Sub model wasnt the downfall of those games. Failing to account for a wide variety of gamers did.

Simply put, you cant charge a sub for a turd.

Was DCUO a "turd"? Rift? Tera?

Of all the MMORPGs to launch as subscription-based games in the last decade, the only one that I'm aware of that's still subscription-based is FFXIV. Is every other MMORPG to launch in the last decade a "turd"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

None of those games can boast a population of more than 50k players concurrently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

EVE is still sub based. Granted you can pay for your sub with in game money via a direct system implemented to allow players to pay for their sub by buying PLEX from other players.

Personally, I've continued to pay for the sub with real money though since shortly after the game went live in 2003.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

People need to stop saying these games "failed". They generate revenue through p2w and then close the project to move to another one. When it comes to money vs players, companies will always choose money because that's their goal in the first place. These are no ideological entities and people should stop treating them as such.

 

From a fiscal point of view, ArcheAge and BDO might be hugely successful, the reputation getting tarnished is demonstrably worth it, otherwise these practices wouldn't still be used. It's also quite normal to see a life-cycle of any game to be planned for a maximum of 2 years. It's not much different from a shop selling out all their products cheaper to temporarily boost their revenue.

 

Please stop comparing them to molochs like Apple or Amazon, the rules for them are different and getting a financial hit to rebound in a year or two might be a feasable strategy, it's not the case for smaller endevours.

you are correct that it depends on how you see it, and profit wise these projects wouldn't be labelled failures particularly, but at the same time you have to keep in mind while the games did flip a profit if the profit is below the actual value of the product (bdo is a very high quality game in most players opinions, yet it probably won't gain half the value it could truly be worth due to poor marketing) then it could also be seen as a failure. I suppose it's about maximizing potential, and the biggest issue with the whole p2w scheme or marketing is that it can never do that, it's a trade between long term and arguably more profitable for a more immediate profit but ultimately smaller gains.  

if you need a more similar comparison for this matter then we can just go to wow, arguably the most successful mmo to ever exist, and you damn well know if blizzard came into the game with this approach they wouldn't have even seen a fraction of the success they found. heck it could be argued that their best selling point these days isn't even their games but their reputation, and that's something you will never gain from this sort of toxic marketing that places their product and even consumer leagues beneath their money concerns. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

you are correct that it depends on how you see it, and profit wise these projects wouldn't be labelled failures particularly, but at the same time you have to keep in mind while the games did flip a profit if the profit is below the actual value of the product (bdo is a very high quality game in most players opinions, yet it probably won't gain half the value it could truly be worth due to poor marketing) then it could also be seen as a failure. I suppose it's about maximizing potential, and the biggest issue with the whole p2w scheme or marketing is that it can never do that, it's a trade between long term and arguably more profitable for a more immediate profit but ultimately smaller gains.  

if you need a more similar comparison for this matter then we can just go to wow, arguably the most successful mmo to ever exist, and you damn well know if blizzard came into the game with this approach they wouldn't have even seen a fraction of the success they found. heck it could be argued that their best selling point these days isn't even their games but their reputation, and that's something you will never gain from this sort of toxic marketing that places their product and even consumer leagues beneath their money concerns. 

It's silly to compare any modern MMO to WoW. Not only they hadn't been dealing with the overwhelming competition at start but also had a much higher budget, which translates into quality (generally), than their rivals. Right now the MMO market is simply oversaturated to the point of any long-term investment being too risky. This is the reason why they milk new titles this way. No new game will reach the numbers of WoW (or it's very unlikely at least) so why not milk the cow and get another one when the previous dries out?

I don't necessarily agree that the actual value of the product is being undersold (if that's a word even). I think it's just being used to generate the "honeymoon phase" numbers for a little while. I'm not saying there'd be losses if they haven't pulled out the p2w crap but I don't think cashing out when the popularity is still high is the bad move either, financially speaking. Obviously we don't have the numbers so it's all hypothetical talking but it's a bit naive to think reputation is main currency in this business, money is and always has been.

I won't be surprised if Kakao announces both new game ports and BDO moving to f2p model in the very near future.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Was DCUO a "turd"? Rift? Tera?

Of all the MMORPGs to launch as subscription-based games in the last decade, the only one that I'm aware of that's still subscription-based is FFXIV. Is every other MMORPG to launch in the last decade a "turd"?

Didn't all of those go free to play because population dropped off Mariana Trench style?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Why are people defending Kakao against their own interest? I find it odd people would try justify why companies should have no integrity.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Why are people defending Kakao against their own interest? I find it odd people would try justify why companies should have no integrity.

Explaining is not justifying. Those are all deceitful and shady at best tactics that will turn people against them forever. Doesn't mean they act without a purpose or a plan though.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites