• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Value of Trust - Feedback Thread

120 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The following is a direct quote of the Value of Trust Feedback Thread:

Think of 10 extremely successful brands. What do you think made them successful? No matter what you think of, from Apple and Coca-Cola to Rolex and Lamborghini, all these companies universally achieved success through building a loyal customer-base. These are brands you can trust, brands that deliver high quality goods and services. You trust these brands to never betray you as a customer, and that's why you're willing to spend premium buying their products.

The shallow concept that having a higher average revenue per user is extremely shortsighted. Investors love seeing increased quarterly sales, but the butchering of cows rather than patient milking never pays off in the long run. None of the above companies would have achieved similar success by backstabbing customers for a quick buck. They universally built up and maintained their reputation. These companies would gladly throw away billions of dollars just to not taint their name. They are loyal to the customers and in return customers will buy a rock branded with the Apple logo for $1000. Contrary to popular belief, you would actually do extremely poorly in entrepreneurship if you're shortsighted and greedy. Only an amateur or an economics student could be inexperienced enough to follow textbook Nash equilibrium word for word in their business decision-making.

Of course some uneducated cynic will go on a rant about how exploiting psychology for easy money is the best way to run a business because it's all about money and post videos like this: https://youtu.be/f_2sGk7Uwe8Guess who completely disagrees with that design philosophy? Riot Games. Guess who published the most popular online game to ever exist? Again, Riot Games. The game in that video, Battlefields Heroes, was shut down 1 year after that video after doing irreparable damage to EA's reputation. EA is consistently listed as among the worst gaming companies to ever exist. League of Legends is still a giant to this very day. Riot is still loved and adored, building up a widespread e-sports fervor, a historical first.

Similar concepts apply to MMOs. The MMOs that are most successful are innovative, fun, receptive to feedback and have trustworthy developers/publishers.

In the P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Trion
  • my.com
  • Perfect World
  • Nexon

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

Here are a few clear differences between games on the two list:

  • Games from the P2W publishers have quick turnover cycles with player mass exodus when the next new toy comes out. Games from the non-P2W publishers do not see sharp declines in their population soon after launch. LoL will be on season 8 or so by 2020, Archeage might not exist by that time.
  • Games from the P2W publisher are actually not very memorable, I'd be surprised if the average gamer could list 5 out of 40 or so games from the P2W publisher list. I'm sure most people know what the non-P2W publishers publish though, most gamers would be able to list almost all of them.
  • Games from the P2W publishers have disloyal followers and fragmented communities. People don't stick around and none of their games are popular on stream. Publishers in the non-P2W list have extremely loyal playerbase, and virtually all of their games are popular on stream.
  • And I guess the most important thing of them all:
    • after looking at the games published on both sides, can you honestly tell me P2W makes more money with a straight face?
       

There is not a single P2W MMO that achieved critical success in the Western market. In fact, most of those MMOs had Asian origins and makes far more money in the East. The only Eastern MMOs to make more in the Western market I know of are TERA and BDO. TERA did so by being innovative and having one of the cleanest cash shops and most feedback-receptive publishers in Western F2P MMO history. During TERA golden ages, there were virtually no publishers comparable to EME. BDO achieved success by promising a clean cash shop, zero P2W policy and offering a refuge for traumatized and disillusioned F2P players who are sick of P2W. In fact, I dare to say that BDO would not have achieved even a quarter of its current success without the early promises in regards to clean cash shop allowed by B2P model. The majority of Daum's success with Western BDO release can be attributed to playerbase loyalty and trust. In response to an untrustworthy genre (i.e. MMO publishers), we put our last bit of faith in Daum when they promised to be different. Archeage handed Daum success on a silver platter, yet Daum is about to throw that away.

I dare to end with the conclusion that Daum at this point had completely betrayed the playerbase's trust. While they once had the potential to build a lasting Western legacy in the MMO genre by joining giants like Riot and Blizzard, today it was made clear that they will likely go down in history next to names like Trion and Nexon - slowly, desperately falling into obscurity, grabbing as much as they can while sinking further into the abyss.

Even if all they wanted was money, even if they never had a desire to build a good game, they still clearly missed a very important lesson one can quickly learn from case studies of success: 

The value of trust is not only moral and humanistic, it exists in economics too.

 

Your numbers may improve next quarter Daum, but after that you're on your own. Choose wisely because the players certainly will. 

Hello everyone.

@CM_Aethon did an amazing job and brought this topic back up again, so please keep it clean and clear and keep discussing the points as you were.

 

As many of you know, Im not the original owner, but the message is still the same, so please value this chance we have to voice our opinions about this matter.

Edited by Hadex
10 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Trion is blacklisted for me. Seems that Kakao / Daum are the next to add on my list. 

I am not so much against the p2w, but I am 100% against the bite & switch approach. 

Edited by Isteria
11 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Think of 10 extremely successful brands. What do you think made them successful? No matter what you think of, from Apple and Coca-Cola to Rolex and Lamborghini, all these companies universally achieved success through building a loyal customer-base. These are brands you can trust, brands that deliver high quality goods and services. You trust these brands to never betray you as a customer, and that's why you're willing to spend premium buying their products.

The shallow concept that having a higher average revenue per user is extremely shortsighted. Investors love seeing increased quarterly sales, but the butchering of cows rather than patient milking never pays off in the long run. None of the above companies would have achieved similar success by backstabbing customers for a quick buck. They universally built up and maintained their reputation. Contrary to popular belief, you would actually do extremely poorly in entrepreneurship if you're shortsighted and greedy.

Similar concepts apply to MMOs. The MMOs that are most successful are innovative, fun, receptive to feedback and have trustworthy developers/publishers. Don't let me tell you this, let's just look at a few examples:

In the P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Trion
  • my.com
  • Perfect World
  • Nexon

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

 

Here are a few clear differences between games on the two list:

  • Games from the P2W publishers have quick turnover cycles with player mass exodus when the next new toy comes out. Games from the non-P2W publishers do not see sharp declines in their population soon after launch. LoL will be on season 8 or so by 2020, Archeage might not exist by that time.
  • Games from the P2W publisher are actually not very memorable, I'd be surprised if the average gamer could list 5 out of 40 or so games from the P2W publisher list. I'm sure most people know what the non-P2W publishers publish though, most gamers would be able to list almost all of them.
  • Games from the P2W publishers have disloyal followers and fragmented communities. People don't stick around and none of their games are popular on stream. Publishers in the non-P2W list have extremely loyal playerbase, and virtually all of their games are popular on stream.
  • And I guess the most important thing of them all:
    • after looking at the games published on both sides, can you honestly tell me P2W makes more money with a straight face?

 

There is not a single P2W MMO that achieved critical success in the Western market. In fact, most of those MMOs had Asian origins and makes far more money in the East. The only Eastern MMOs to make more in the Western market I know of are TERA and BDO. TERA did so by being innovative and having one of the cleanest cash shops and most feedback-receptive publishers in Western F2P MMO history. During TERA golden ages, there were virtually no publishers comparable to EME. BDO achieved success by promising a clean cash shop, zero P2W policy and offering a refuge for traumatized and disillusioned F2P players who are sick of P2W. In fact, I dare to say that BDO would not have achieved even a quarter of its current success without the early promises in regards to clean cash shop allowed by B2P model. The majority of Daum's success with Western BDO release can be attributed to playerbase loyalty and trust. In response to an untrustworthy genre (i.e. MMO publishers), we put our last bit of faith in Daum when they promised to be different.

I dare to end with the conclusion that Daum at this point had completely betrayed the playerbase's trust. While they once had the potential to build a lasting Western legacy in the MMO genre by joining giants like Riot and Blizzard, today it was made clear that they will likely go down in history next to names like Trion and Nexon - slowly, desperately falling into obscurity, grabbing as much as they can while sinking further into the abyss.

Even if all they wanted was money, even if they never had a desire to build a good game, they still clearly missed a very important lesson one can quickly learn from case studies of success: 

The value of trust is not only moral and humanistic, it exists in economics too.

 

Your numbers may improve next quarter Daum, but after that you're on your own. Choose wisely.

MMO publishers have forgotten what customer loyalty is. If they do know what it is, they have a low value for it.

This is the sort of stuff that pushes me further away from the genre as a whole.

 

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Choose wisely because the players certainly will.

LOL!!

No they won't. MMO players are a fickle lot. There are so very many games and platforms out there that players simply bounce from one thrill ride to the next over and over again.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

bye felicia. Before you leave please put your gear on the marketplace so when P2W comes whales could buy it. I want to avoid RNG.

You wont get anything from me but an ironic smile.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

  • Blizzard

Blizzard has been unabashedly P2W since D3 and their previous reputation is really the only thing that's kept them going.

WoW is the most p2w p2p game on the market by a country mile.

Other than that, good post.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Indeed, I feel betrayed as a customer by this recent development as well.

The western regions went for a buy2play system in order to avoid cash grabs like p2w cash shops.
We were promised on numerous occasions that something like this wouldn't happen in our version of the game.

But now, our b2p cash shop (which should've been cosmetic only to match the business model from the start) is slowly turning into its f2p counterparts.
So, not only are we taking the route of a f2p cash shop - we even paid for the game itself beforehand, expecting - at least almost - pure b2p.

This recent development - if it goes through - would be the worst backstab of a publisher towards their community I have ever experienced in MMO history.

If the intention behind this is making cash shop items available for the whole community, there's always the option to add in an NPC who sells them.
Thus you cut out the p2w middleman and everybody should be happy. This kind of cash grab is unnecessary, since we have already paid for the game in the first place.

While I still have faith in Daum listening to their community, it would take a heavy hit if these changes were to be implemented.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Blizzard is definitely not as clean as companies like Riot but it's nowhere near as dirty as the P2W list. It's funny you bring up D3, because GGG would never had achieved that success with PoE if Bliz didn't ----- up D3 so badly. The only difference is GGG continued to act with integrity so their game is still doing very well. Daum doesn't seem to want to do that despite a similar situation offered to them in the form of Archeage.

They aren't the worst out there by a long shot, but they are easily the worst when it comes to the p2p offerings. I mean I'll give you that Bliz isn't a garbage bin developer like the other list, but I would hardly say they aren't pretty deep in p2w territory with their most valuable IP.

D3's RMT AH was so bad they literally had to remove it from the game and yeah, PoE picked up a *LOT* of sucess by marketing to the players who wanted a real successor to D2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I still laugh at the people saying Riot's League of Legend is p2w  

Always gives me a massive grin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I still laugh at the people saying Riot's League of Legend is p2w  

Always gives me a massive grin.

Wait people really think LoL's skins are p2w?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This is exactly the point. Thank you for putting it into better words than i could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Wait people really think LoL's skins are p2w?

Yea, some people actually said that since you bought all the champions and skin youre better lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Do you know how many MMO players flat out refuse to touch Nexon, Trion, etc? If you think betraying trust will help your next flourish, you'd have to be pretty stupid. Revelations looks amazing in most aspects, but just by virtue of my.com it already draws criticism of P2W before the game is even released.

^

I can attest, I will not touch Nexon, Trion, Allods / My.com (same people btw), PWI and several other publishers / developers that have earned a reputation for ramping up p2w.

Gamers are indeed a fickle lot, and they are also extremely unforgiving and will blacklist a company with minimal prompting when they feel betrayed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Do you know how many MMO players flat out refuse to touch Nexon, Trion, etc? If you think betraying trust will help your next flourish, you'd have to be pretty stupid. Revelations looks amazing in most aspects, but just by virtue of my.com it already draws criticism of P2W before the game is even released.

MMO's are destined to change their features and business models like any other company that offers services. Like any other business service you get to move on if you don't like the changes. For my taste players of games are saps for emo-drama. Some of you people absolutely LOVE these gyrations; it gives you reason. 'Yall need help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

~~

http://theinvestor.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160720001024

From the looks of it, Kakao is in no way interested in coming up with a loyal customer base, or even continuing to stay in the video game business. This game was a short-term cash cow and nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm still asking my self why we can't have a -----ing game with monthly sub like Lineage 2 with no cash shop at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Everything from the east is a f2p/p2w milk job. Sure, Western companies get greedy too and pull stupid stunts. (See Blizz and the D3 fiasco in the beginning.) But, overall, their still exist developers in the west with a passion for creating quality games for gamers, as many of them are themselves, gamers. The east is devoid of this for the most part. Everything being created over there is bought by some big Communications company or the like, who intends to use the mmo playerbase to fund other ventures. P2w in these games just doesn't come along one day to meet the needs of the dev and the playerbase. It's part of the core plan from the start. The only trick is, coming up with new and clever ways to condition players to accept it, as it is now a known fact that all of these games will have it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What is trust? Daum don't hurt me... don't hurt me.. no more.

 

eb2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm still asking my self why we can't have a -----ing game with monthly sub like Lineage 2 with no cash shop at all?

Because it's a business model that flounders in the current market.

Considering every b2p and p2p game seems to pick up a full on f2p cash shop anyways this will very likely be the last game with a paid client I ever touch if I continue to play MMO's.

It's like we keep expecting companies to keep good on their commitment to not be like all the other guys but they keep just doing the same thing anyways... may as well ride the f2p train where they are 100% up front about it from word go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Because it's a business model that flounders in the current market.

I keep saying this, but everyone wanna pretend like it's 2005 and sub-based games are still viable.

Based on this very lose defininition of pay2win crafted by the narrative being jammed down our throats, no modern MMO should exist at all.

I'd also like very much to know exactly when and where Daum said the cash shop would be different than it is. Because every post I read from pre-launch literally has no language suggesting this. I think people just WANTED this game to be something that it's not.

Edited by PeregrineOmega

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 

Good thread, well to the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

@Featherine

Well sad, totally agreed.

I have a list of companies that I will never buy/play, Daum will be added very soon to it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'd also like very much to know exactly when and where Daum said the cash shop would be different than it is. Because every post I read from pre-launch literally has no language suggesting this. I think people just WANTED this game to be something that it's not.

It was very very often commented on in Q&A / Interview videos.

The docgotgame interview is really the most clear of all of them where Jouska said they did not want a path from real world money to in game money in our version.


Jouska was extremely vocal about assuring the community this very sort of thing wouldn't happen in our version and that's why you see so many with this idea.

While they didn't overtly lie about it, they were deceptive about it and worded it very carefully to give people the impression it wouldn't happen while hiding little nuggets about it being a considered possibility maybe at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think if Daum/Kakao was intelligent they'd stop themselves right before they crossed the line of no return and it simply becomes a race of them creating more heavy-handed P2W to accommodate for a very rapidly dying player base that was loyal.

If Daum does this, no matter what they change their company name to, it'll be a permanent stain on their record, it'll put them at a long lasting, tense disadvantage between them and whatever player bases they gather. I hope whatever they choose, it'll be worth it.

In the words of a man that tried to pull bullshit with paid mods, "The internet never forgets."

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

And yet the most successful online game in history doesn't have a single P2W aspect to it. Heck, they're drowning in so much money they're literally trying to rebuild USA internet infrastructure.

Online game, not MMORPG.

Comparing DOTA2 to any MMORPG is apples and oranges.

WoW does in fact, have a cash shop. So does EVE. They both allow you to directly buy currency with real money. Don't think anyone would even consider EVE to be pay2win due to it's complexity. Yes, I realize BDO isn't as such, but I'm still not understanding exactly how "P2W" it is even by comparison. They both have a cosmetic cash shop. They both allow you to buy things with real money and then sell them in-game for currency. Why is that such a problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0