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Value of Trust - Feedback Thread

120 posts in this topic

Posted

They sold 1million copies since a few weeks back. Even assuming nobody bought any pearls and everyone got the cheapest pack, that's at least $30million.

 

And we both know a large chunk of players didn't get the $30 packages and Daum themselves said they had healthy returns on their cash shop with ~11% participation rates (which is fairly high for any cash shop)

It's fairly reasonable to assume north of $50 million from our server alone, not counting the money coming from the other three.

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Posted

With 2 billion silver?
buy a Kzarka, buy the weapon stones and memory frags, spin upgrades to win.

If that doesn't get it, swipe up another 2 billion silver over the next month.


Enchanting is largely a game of attrition, 500 million a week buys a whole lot of spins for no real effort.

And all those extra spins can't still mean not getting that TET. I've seen way more fails than successes.

Which always refers back to my original point of what is actually "pay2win." The fact that probability never changes regardless of how many spins. The guy sitting next to you might not pay anything and get it on his first try. You may spend $1000 and fail every TET roll you try. At which point, you only lost money. This is what Daum is banking on. It's not pay to win at all, it's pay to hope. It's like people who buy 100 lottery tickets instead of one. Did that guy up his chances? Sure, but when you chances are 800,000,000 to 1, it's kind of irrelevant unless  maybe he buys 1,000,000 tickets at which point, he's already lost.

Paying is no guarantee of winning unless you can buy an item that actually improves your luck (re: regrade charms in Archeage, definitely pay2win). Otherwise, it's just paying for a chance to sink your money. Ever been in a casino? That's exactly what they bank on.

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Posted

 

Guess all my patients have to die then :(

 

Being a patient is p2live :D

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Posted

Could not have said it better myself. Though I do agree with some others that Blizzard has gone a little P2W over the years, and the subject of World of Warcraft has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Riot on the other hand pretty much nailed it with there store and pricing and furthermore with there communication, updates and drive to improve there game. The same can be said of smaller growing companies like Wildcard developers of ARK: Survival Evolved, no cash shop, constantly pushing out new content, mods, regular feedback with the community. These are companies I trust and am passionate about. 

Black Desert, Daum, Pearl Abyss, KaoKao will not join them, not for me. Its sad because there are aspects of this game that I really loved, I put up with a lot of other stuff I didn't like because I felt overall it was worth it and that the game had a lot of promise. This announcement has tipped the scales though and killed my drive to play. I'm kind of just lingering around the forums to see if it actually goes through or not, despite the uproar, and what the damage is, but I'm already looking for other games to play. Sad times.

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Posted

And all those extra spins can't still mean not getting that TET. I've seen way more fails than successes.
Which always refers back to my original point of what is actually "pay2win." The fact that probability never changes regardless of how many spins. The guy sitting next to you might not pay anything and get it on his first try. You may spend $1000 and fail every TET roll you try. At which point, you only lost money. This is what Daum is banking on. It's not pay to win at all, it's pay to hope. It's like people who buy 100 lottery tickets instead of one. Did that guy up his chances? Sure, but when you chances are 800,000,000 to 1, it's kind of irrelevant unless  maybe he buys 1,000,000 tickets at which point, he's already lost.

Paying is no guarantee of winning unless you can buy an item that actually improves your luck (re: regrade charms in Archeage, definitely pay2win). Otherwise, it's just paying for a chance to sink your money. Ever been in a casino? That's exactly what they bank on.

Again, if you don't understand what a massive advantage 2 billion silver a month is nothing anyone can tell you will help.

You asserting this isn't a massive advantage that can't be compensated for by play is disingenuous.

Paying is not a guarantee of getting a TET, but, again, enchanting is a game of attrition. More attempts evens out the chances of sucess and having more chances in a given period improves your chances of obtaining that enchantment.

Asserting it is not p2w because it's not guaranteed is ignoring the fact that there's no real way for any player to offset that huge silver advantage $600 / week affords.

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Posted

It's possible that they won't even improve on the short term, can't say. I can spend $100 a day if I wanted to, but I'm not going to do that. The value pack already pissed me off a lot, and honestly charging back is absolutely reasonable at this point. Misleading advertising is still false advertising. You could even sue them at this point if you wanted to.

Aye, it is quite unpleasant to look back at the time spent on this game and not be upset.  When most MMOs fail, I can at least say that I had fun with them while they lasted and can justify the time/money spent because of that. At the very least, one can make the case that playing many video games can actually increase your IQ due to the complexity of the thought processes involved in PvP.  With BDO though, most of that time was spent endlessly grinding for the sake of grinding.  Very little of it was fun, very little of it was stimulating, most of it was frustrating and at this point I feel like BDO may be the worst MMO I've ever played.

I quite honestly feel like they owe us for our lost time.

 

P.S. I probably won't be doing that testing now on whether RNG is influenced by number of players grinding in a given area haha (this is Kylaria)

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Posted (edited)

they intended the cash shop thing from the begining guys..

Edited by LinaCrysta

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Posted

It all goes back to paying the bills.  All you internet accountants have determined that Daum has made millions and millions without having a single shred of proof.  All these changes and the ones Trino made and changes that every other company in business make are based on money. 

Folks it all boils down to money. 

Please show me their financial statements and then we can talk.

Most of you are alienating yourself from the game because you determine the game would be one way when all along Daum has been saying something else.  You just failed to comprehend the situation.  You fail to understand just how much money it takes to run this game or any game for that matter.  You have the expectation that Daum is going to provide the best game in the world to you for free and someone else is going to pay for it.  Just like healthcare and every other social program that take money from one to give to another.

You also fail to understand that this simple change allows a newer player the opportunity to catch up a bit faster.  It has nothing to do with you statement.  They are trying to provide a game and environment that is enjoyable to a vast number of people, not cater to a group of people that feel ENTITLED to something because they got there first or have more time to play and can't stand the thought of someone better skilled or more geared coming along. 

You have no clue what DAUM or PA think of their customers any more than I do.  You obviously know very little about running a business and how important customers are.  This could have been a strategic move to run off a bunch of non payers, yes you all know who you are, for people that have no problem paying for convenience. 

This game is a business period.  Businesses are here to provide a service and make an income.  Plain and simple.  If Daum was rolling in cash don't you think we would see GM's in the game constantly?  Better customer support and ticket times, better communication etc.  Daum probably under estimated the costs to do this game and is stretched quite thin.  A few poor decisions early on can be very detrimental down the road.   About half of all businesses fail in their first year.

Changes are made to survive and continue.  I have yet to meet a company that has intentionally wanted to lose their customers.  Most of the people in all these threads crying are most likely the ones that have least supported the game financially.  Thank about that.

So which is it?

It's pretty clear right from the get-go this game was a massive success. As discussed elsewhere in the thread, this company had everything setup to gain an extremely loyal, extremely vocal customer base who don't mind spending hundreds of dollars on a product they like. A large portion of this playerbase came from p2w games like AA to BDO **because** it was advertised over and over and not being one of those games, one of those companies. Take a look at every business decision they have made since the end of CBT2. Every single one lost them customers, and every single one was a bad decision *from a business point of view* IF their goal was to remain a relevant company in the years to come. 

When you approach it from another angle, IE, a quick cash grab n dump, their business decisions make sense. Every single one of their business decisions were to maximize profits in the very short term. The way to secure a long-term market was available to them, and in the end, they purposely chose to get as much cash as they could by making false promises, falsely advertising, and cashing in one each segment of their playerbase before just killing the game. It's 6 months in and you have your players *literally protesting* ingame. You think this game will retain it's customers for a long time? They are currently cashing in on the last little bit of the population they haven't milked yet, the whales. Once they maximize their profits in the next 2 months, that portion of the playerbase is going to drop as well, and after that, there will be a skeleton crew of dedicated players who can't drop the game because they invested a lot of time early and can't force themselves to let go.(sunken cost fallacy). That is this games future. 2-3 months, it's player population will be a fraction of what it is now, they'll do a server merge. It'll still have shitty servers, and you'll get the occasional population spike everytime huge new continent is released, but other than that it'll mostly be dead to insure minimum upkeep costs while Kakao continues growing it's brands in completely unrelated markets.

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Posted

They sold 1million copies since a few weeks back. Even assuming nobody bought any pearls and everyone got the cheapest pack, that's at least $30million.

 

and what are the expenses?  They did not make 30 million.  There are costs of doing business. 

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Posted (edited)

And all those extra spins can't still mean not getting that TET. I've seen way more fails than successes.
Which always refers back to my original point of what is actually "pay2win." The fact that probability never changes regardless of how many spins. The guy sitting next to you might not pay anything and get it on his first try. You may spend $1000 and fail every TET roll you try. At which point, you only lost money. This is what Daum is banking on. It's not pay to win at all, it's pay to hope. It's like people who buy 100 lottery tickets instead of one. Did that guy up his chances? Sure, but when you chances are 800,000,000 to 1, it's kind of irrelevant unless  maybe he buys 1,000,000 tickets at which point, he's already lost.

Paying is no guarantee of winning unless you can buy an item that actually improves your luck (re: regrade charms in Archeage, definitely pay2win). Otherwise, it's just paying for a chance to sink your money. Ever been in a casino? That's exactly what they bank on.

Your math is so broken then i dont even know where to start... Not even one guy who have tet kzarka already in game spend 2 bil to get one... All of them made it a lot cheaper... 

 

Its not 800,000,000 to 1, more like 10 to 1 and guy with 2 bil money bought 6 tickets... if you think that having 6 tickets in 10 to 1 lottery isnt big adventage then you really should go back to school...

Edited by Dorsai

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Posted

So which is it?

It's pretty clear right from the get-go this game was a massive success. As discussed elsewhere in the thread, this company had everything setup to gain an extremely loyal, extremely vocal customer base who don't mind spending hundreds of dollars on a product they like. A large portion of this playerbase came from p2w games like AA to BDO **because** it was advertised over and over and not being one of those games, one of those companies. Take a look at every business decision they have made since the end of CBT2. Every single one lost them customers, and every single one was a bad decision *from a business point of view* IF their goal was to remain a relevant company in the years to come. 

When you approach it from another angle, IE, a quick cash grab n dump, their business decisions make sense. Every single one of their business decisions were to maximize profits in the very short term. The way to secure a long-term market was available to them, and in the end, they purposely chose to get as much cash as they could by making false promises, falsely advertising, and cashing in one each segment of their playerbase before just killing the game. It's 6 months in and you have your players *literally protesting* ingame. You think this game will retain it's customers for a long time? They are currently cashing in on the last little bit of the population they haven't milked yet, the whales. Once they maximize their profits in the next 2 months, that portion of the playerbase is going to drop as well, and after that, there will be a skeleton crew of dedicated players who can't drop the game because they invested a lot of time early and can't force themselves to let go.(sunken cost fallacy). That is this games future. 2-3 months, it's player population will be a fraction of what it is now, they'll do a server merge. It'll still have shitty servers, and you'll get the occasional population spike everytime huge new continent is released, but other than that it'll mostly be dead to insure minimum upkeep costs while Kakao continues growing it's brands in completely unrelated markets.

Once again show me financial statements that back up your claim.  My crystal ball is better than yours so there!  We have an Entitled player base in this game that has very little understand of how businesses work and instead of understanding that they put on the tin foil hats and make ridiculous claims like you have. 

Yeah your .3 percent protests are earth shaking.

Because BDO is dead in KR and RU? 

Once again you decided to fill in blanks, thinking they might be different than AA which is another KR game with essentially the same elements.  Why would you think otherwise.

This was from their own Q&A 2.2

Note:

  • Cash Shop items will not be possible to sell on the marketplace at launch phase
  • If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace

This should have been your first clue.  You chose to look the other way.  That is not our fault. 

Your math is so broken then i dont even know where to start... Not even one guy who have tet kzarka already in game spend 2 bil to get one... All of them made it a lot cheaper... 

 

Its not 800,000,000 to 1, more like 10 to 1 and guy with 2 bil money bought 6 tickets... if you think that having 6 tickets in 10 to 1 lottery isnt big adventage then you really should go back to school...

They don't teach people how to think in school anymore.  They teach you what to think and they teach an agenda.  People just follow along blindly, do no research and complain about every thing.  

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Posted (edited)

Once again show me financial statements that back up your claim.  My crystal ball is better than yours so there!  We have an Entitled player base in this game that has very little understand of how businesses work and instead of understanding that they put on the tin foil hats and make ridiculous claims like you have. 

Yeah your .3 percent protests are earth shaking.

Because BDO is dead in KR and RU? 

Once again you decided to fill in blanks, thinking they might be different than AA which is another KR game with essentially the same elements.  Why would you think otherwise.

This was from their own Q&A 2.2

Note:

  • Cash Shop items will not be possible to sell on the marketplace at launch phase
  • If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace

This should have been your first clue.  You chose to look the other way.  That is not our fault. 

   Ofc they made that statement to cover themself for future of this game when earning will start to decrease... But not 5 months after release when game is doing a lot better then they assumed and earnings are growing every month...  Most players knew that cash shop items on MP would come, but not that fast when game is at his best moment...

Edited by Dorsai

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Posted

I don't trust Kakao anymore.

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Posted

The expenses? Far lower than 30million.

Do you have an expense report?

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Posted

 

FYI, even Nexon is trying to clean up their reputation, unfortunately this is the kind of foul stench you will hardly ever get rid of.

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Posted (edited)

Your math is so broken then i dont even know where to start... Not even one guy who have tet kzarka already in game spend 2 bil to get one... All of them made it a lot cheaper... 

Which exactly proves my point. So a guy is going to spend $x00 to buy a base kzarka and upgrade it. Once again, his chances are not increased by this. It does not matter how much money he spends, his success rate cannot go up. His chances do, but the rate of success does not. If it's 15% for you, it's 15% for him. I know people who've succeeded TRI on their first try, and I know people who it took several tries. A guy who pays still has those exact same odds. The only difference is he paid real money for those same odds. So yeah, he gets more chances. But he also has the same chance to lose. Which means he could fail 10 times and all of his real money was wasted. That is not an increased success rate by any metric.

I feel like none of you have ever been in a casino. Have you ever heard the saying in there that the guy who pays the most wins the most?

Edited by PeregrineOmega

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Posted

(...)

thank you for this.

would give you a like but i'm out for today :\

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Posted

I'd like to think I enjoyed the game. Even the grind is sometimes fun similar to Dynasty Warriors.

That being said, recent development is very disappointing. The cons outweigh the pros at this point.

Fair enough, I wouldn't be spending 100 hours testing something I probably won't be playing soon either. Today is the first day I had spare time and didn't even bother logging on to claim my daily scroll.

It was fun in that it was a way to increase your account value/strength that could easily be seen in real time.   It gave you instant gratification because, well, you got the rewards immediately.  But it also provided long term gratification in that each gear upgrade made any future grinding more lucrative.  I fell into this trap and have been literally grinding for the sake of grinding for awhile now.  I had a revelation after the second siege week and realized I didn't enjoy the game itself, but tucked it away by forcing myself to believe awakenings were worth prepping for.  Ultimately, it would be worth it if the game lasted and I could find a permanent home in BDO!  Then yesterday happened and reality set in.

Perhaps this isn't the reason you specifically enjoyed grinding, but I would be shocked if it wasn't the reason most players still log in and grind.  There are all sorts of articles about this game type and dopamine chasing.  It is quite brilliant, but evil and shitty

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Posted

 

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

Blizzards World of Warcraft MMORPG has P2W elements, which is the token system, you spend IRL money to buy a WoW token which you put on the AH, after the token sells you get the full amount of gold that was spent on it, so for EU it's around 75k+. That gold can be used can be used to buy mid/top tier items from the AH or it can be used to buy a mythic raid run, which before the pre patch was 300K+ a full boost which includes the mount from the last boss and every piece of loot that drops for your classes specialization

I see where your coming from with this, but please do a bit more research into the company's games.

c0eb42c692.jpg

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Posted

Sad thing about Trion is they embraced that shit like a badge of honor. Even their follow up releases were blatant p2w cash grabs. I feel comfortable in the assumption this company will have the same attitude. I mean, shit, they convinced us to pay for a run of the mill f2p game without even blinking.

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Posted

Blizzards World of Warcraft MMORPG has P2W elements, which is the token system, you spend IRL money to buy a WoW token which you put on the AH, after the token sells you get the full amount of gold that was spent on it, so for EU it's around 75k+. That gold can be used can be used to buy mid/top tier items from the AH or it can be used to buy a mythic raid run, which before the pre patch was 300K+ a full boost which includes the mount from the last boss and every piece of loot that drops for your classes specialization

I see where your coming from with this, but please do a bit more research into the company's games.

c0eb42c692.jpg

And how long Wow is on market and how long BDO is? You dont add p2w elements to B2P game 5 months after game release, you just dont... its stupid and short -sighted...

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Posted

 

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

don't forget about Arenanet & Guild Wars II 

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Posted

 That gold can be used can be used to buy mid/top tier items from the AH or it can be used to buy a mythic raid run

I'm pretty sure people were buying arena/raid boosts before the WoW Token.

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Posted

Think of 10 extremely successful brands. What do you think made them successful? No matter what you think of, from Apple and Coca-Cola to Rolex and Lamborghini, all these companies universally achieved success through building a loyal customer-base. These are brands you can trust, brands that deliver high quality goods and services. You trust these brands to never betray you as a customer, and that's why you're willing to spend premium buying their products.

The shallow concept that having a higher average revenue per user is extremely shortsighted. Investors love seeing increased quarterly sales, but the butchering of cows rather than patient milking never pays off in the long run. None of the above companies would have achieved similar success by backstabbing customers for a quick buck. They universally built up and maintained their reputation. Contrary to popular belief, you would actually do extremely poorly in entrepreneurship if you're shortsighted and greedy.

Similar concepts apply to MMOs. The MMOs that are most successful are innovative, fun, receptive to feedback and have trustworthy developers/publishers. Don't let me tell you this, let's just look at a few examples:

In the P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Trion
  • my.com
  • Perfect World
  • Nexon

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

 

Here are a few clear differences between games on the two list:

  • Games from the P2W publishers have quick turnover cycles with player mass exodus when the next new toy comes out. Games from the non-P2W publishers do not see sharp declines in their population soon after launch. LoL will be on season 8 or so by 2020, Archeage might not exist by that time.
  • Games from the P2W publisher are actually not very memorable, I'd be surprised if the average gamer could list 5 out of 40 or so games from the P2W publisher list. I'm sure most people know what the non-P2W publishers publish though, most gamers would be able to list almost all of them.
  • Games from the P2W publishers have disloyal followers and fragmented communities. People don't stick around and none of their games are popular on stream. Publishers in the non-P2W list have extremely loyal playerbase, and virtually all of their games are popular on stream.
  • And I guess the most important thing of them all:
    • after looking at the games published on both sides, can you honestly tell me P2W makes more money with a straight face?

 

There is not a single P2W MMO that achieved critical success in the Western market. In fact, most of those MMOs had Asian origins and makes far more money in the East. The only Eastern MMOs to make more in the Western market I know of are TERA and BDO. TERA did so by being innovative and having one of the cleanest cash shops and most feedback-receptive publishers in Western F2P MMO history. During TERA golden ages, there were virtually no publishers comparable to EME. BDO achieved success by promising a clean cash shop, zero P2W policy and offering a refuge for traumatized and disillusioned F2P players who are sick of P2W. In fact, I dare to say that BDO would not have achieved even a quarter of its current success without the early promises in regards to clean cash shop allowed by B2P model. The majority of Daum's success with Western BDO release can be attributed to playerbase loyalty and trust. In response to an untrustworthy genre (i.e. MMO publishers), we put our last bit of faith in Daum when they promised to be different. Archeage handed Daum success on a silver platter, yet Daum is about to throw that away.

I dare to end with the conclusion that Daum at this point had completely betrayed the playerbase's trust. While they once had the potential to build a lasting Western legacy in the MMO genre by joining giants like Riot and Blizzard, today it was made clear that they will likely go down in history next to names like Trion and Nexon - slowly, desperately falling into obscurity, grabbing as much as they can while sinking further into the abyss.

Even if all they wanted was money, even if they never had a desire to build a good game, they still clearly missed a very important lesson one can quickly learn from case studies of success: 

The value of trust is not only moral and humanistic, it exists in economics too.

 

Your numbers may improve next quarter Daum, but after that you're on your own. Choose wisely because the players certainly will.

You forgot the other Non - P2W giant, Counter Strike. litterally skins + stickers = $$$$ and that games pretty freakin old and hasn't evolved. just alittle graphics update and we love it the way it is. 

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In the P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Trion
  • my.com
  • Perfect World
  • Nexon

In the non-P2W camp, you have representative companies like:

  • Riot
  • Blizzard
  • Grinding Gear Games

Best troll post ever. xD

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