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Selling pearls for ingame cash isn't P2W.

40 posts in this topic

Posted

Oh i know all the crazy people with their crossed out P2W avatars are already in here ready to spit hate at the mere suggestion of my title. Just try and read this before you reply please.

i see in the forums that there are 2 sides to this "OMG P2W" most are against it and some are for it, I'm going to attempt show you the middle ground.

P2W is simply the term given to a game that allows you a significant advantage over another person in game. A good example of real P2W would be pay 10 dollars and you get 10% extra pvp damage and reduction for a month. This example gives you something that you cant just get in game and an advantage over people who don't pay.

Now this new selling pearls thing does give an advantage. The advantage is that you can get cash faster because you are trading wanted items bought with pearls for in-game cash. In-game cash can obviously be obtained in another way. So really it is Pay To Progress faster?

Now im going to show the other side and why you can be pissed off.

If this was a game that had very fast progression, for example WoW, where you can get armor and gear fast and hit endgame top tier gear within a few months this wouldn't be a problem, yeah you may have an advantage, but it would not be major and would be very temporary. This game however makes it incredibly difficult to get geared, all hail our lord RNGesus, and progression is ongoing; I don't think i know anyone with TET everything in the game yet. So the advantage that it gives you to have an easier supply of in-game cash than someone else is more major and less temporary. Think of LoL no one would suggest it would be P2W in a million years, but it does give you the ability to get ingame cash to be used on Runes (kind of like equipment) much faster, but it has a very easy to reach ceiling. 

However, can we say that people who have been in the game for longer than others have a serious advantage. Yes. Can we say that people who have no job, life and nothing better to do have a serious advantage. Yes we can. So is this game really just No Life 2 Win? Will releasing this new system just let people catch up to the same lvl of progression and very small group of people shoot ahead, i would like to think so. Maybe their will be more even fights in the future. We can only hope. 

So to summarise, its not pay 2 win, it is No Life 2 Win. Does the system give an unfair advantage? Yes it does, but only because of the way the game is set out. It also doesn't give more of an advantage than people who have just been in the game for longer. Is it unfair that newbies can catch up to veterans? Yes, however should we be shouting and screaming about this? No, unless of course you're scared of people getting gear and having more of a difficult fight.

 

I for one find it so disheartening when i'm playing the game lvl 56 and some dude heavily geared comes out and spams one ability and can murder 3 of us as we try desperately to scratch him. Then i go to work and i fall further and further behind with no way to catch up. Can i ever catch up on lvl to people who are lvl 59-60 already? No not really, i dont have the time, but at least i can start to close the gap on gear after this week.      

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Posted (edited)

I come from one of those top guild, and I can guaranty you most of us have family, kids, and jobs. The main difference is that we were very strongly organized as hundred men/female strong and min maxing everything. You have no idea the spreadsheet we had accessed to computing cost price of every craftable in the games per energy spent. The strong organization for training with people with limited playtime. You can see the lifeskill ranking is trusted by top pvp guild, because we had extensive knowledge of the game even before it went available in NA/EU. And all that summed up ma de it that we stayed on top of the food chain even though many of us have even 50hr weekly job. 

All that minmaxing is now ruined with the extra income that'll be available and if we wanted to remain on top we would need to p2w and keep minmaxing

I do blame your laziness or your lack of organization over our supposed nolife-ness.

 

Edit: grats on your second post ever dude

Edited by talife
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Posted

actually OP your example and selling cash items on the Ah are both forms of p2w. the term is just meaning to pay to advance ahead of the crowd. which selling cash shop items on the AH allows as you are advancing with in game money faster than a person not using the same method. its even worse in this game as NOTHING is bound by level, so at level 1 you can fully deck your character out in gear.

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Posted

 

I do blame your laziness or your lack of organization over our supposed nolife-ness.

Not coming down on either side of this argument, but just because someone doesn't have 100 hours a week to spend in the game doesn't mean they are lazy.  That's an unfair and untrue comment.  Sure, some people are lazy.  Others have other things to do that are more important.  Doesn't mean they don't want to play.

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Posted

 

Not coming down on either side of this argument, but just because someone doesn't have 100 hours a week to spend in the game doesn't mean they are lazy.  That's an unfair and untrue comment.  Sure, some people are lazy.  Others have other things to do that are more important.  Doesn't mean they don't want to play.

then, those people shouldn't be surprised to not be able to compete for top. Nothing wrong with that, I know casuals that enjoy the bit of PvE and even some tier 1 node pvp few hours a week and are purely happy. But this upcoming update will dramatically imbalance top guilds for the reasons I've stated earlier.

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Posted

Snip

the definition of p2w has evolved beyond just being a direct real cash into unobtainable bonus. It's now used in a much more unique way, the way the game is set up is that gear leveling is an rng uphill battle and while yes the p2w'ers wouldn't be directly paying for an advantage, their paying for abnormally fast progression beyond the "normal" level and beyond a hardcore no lifers level. That level of progression advancement has become part of the new definition of p2w, the allowance of real money usage to speed progression at a rate that is not meant and shouldn't be possible normally. With the fact that this game has basically unlimited progression, there will come a point where it's simply not possible for even a hardcore players progress to keep up with the artificially inflated pay2 wins, THAT is the real danger of allowing this to pass and with the fact that in this game levels and gear can get to the point that it trumps skill, this could ruin the game and create an even more dangerous power gap that's built on real life money exchange.

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Posted

 

then, those people shouldn't be surprised to not be able to compete for top. Nothing wrong with that, I know casuals that enjoy the bit of PvE and even some tier 1 node pvp few hours a week and are purely happy. But this upcoming update will dramatically imbalance top guilds for the reasons I've stated earlier.

wow this is the problem i have with people who are like "OMG P2W".
 

"dramatically imbalance top guilds" is that a bad thing can top guilds not deal with a little competition.

Dont call me lazy and unorganized. You have no evidence to back that up. I hate to say it, but you dont know me. Thats just a non sequitur argument.

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Posted (edited)

Dealing with competition when it comes to the same level of organization and commitment, sure hell yeah. When it comes from credit card warriors not so much

Edited by talife

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Posted

Not coming down on either side of this argument, but just because someone doesn't have 100 hours a week to spend in the game doesn't mean they are lazy.  That's an unfair and untrue comment.  Sure, some people are lazy.  Others have other things to do that are more important.  Doesn't mean they don't want to play.

You quoted him but obviously did not comprehend what he said.......

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Posted

the definition of p2w has evolved beyond just being a direct real cash into unobtainable bonus. It's now used in a much more unique way, the way the game is set up is that gear leveling is an rng uphill battle and while yes the p2w'ers wouldn't be directly paying for an advantage, their paying for abnormally fast progression beyond the "normal" level and beyond a hardcore no lifers level. That level of progression advancement has become part of the new definition of p2w, the allowance of real money usage to speed progression at a rate that is not meant and shouldn't be possible normally. With the fact that this game has basically unlimited progression, there will come a point where it's simply not possible for even a hardcore players progress to keep up with the artificially inflated pay2 wins, THAT is the real danger of allowing this to pass and with the fact that in this game levels and gear can get to the point that it trumps skill, this could ruin the game and create an even more dangerous power gap that's built on real life money exchange.

I agree with your point.

However, there is a limit to how much you can progress with in-game cash, that's the point some people are almost at that limit already. There is not a limit on how far people can progress with grinding. Yes getting to 60, is nigh on crazy.
 

just out of curiosity how long do you think it would take for someone new to the game to catch up to a lvl 58 almost full pent gear to have a chance of beating them in pvp if they could only play lets say 15 hours a week?

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Posted

You pay money, which will result in you getting better gear faster and a % damage bonus over someone who does not pay that money. Do you not understand?

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Posted

Dealing with competition when it comes to the same level of organization and commitment, sure hell yeah. When it comes from credit card warriors not so much

My god man, seriously read what i am saying before you reply. 

Commitment is impossible to replicate, well because its a game and i care more about life.

saying you have more organization than me is a non sequitur argument And false.

 

all this P2W does is level the playing field i dont know why people are so scared of that. Sure there will be some people who abuse it, but hey i think there are some people who abuse the amount of time they get on this game to have an unfair advantage on other people as it is.

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Posted

I agree with your point.

However, there is a limit to how much you can progress with in-game cash, that's the point some people are almost at that limit already. There is not a limit on how far people can progress with grinding. Yes getting to 60, is nigh on crazy.
 

just out of curiosity how long do you think it would take for someone new to the game to catch up to a lvl 58 almost full pent gear to have a chance of beating them in pvp if they could only play lets say 15 hours a week?

Not long before they will start selling every progression item in cash shop now. So far our version of cash shop had removed several items due to progression advantage and imbalance for the game. On other version you are able to buy blackstones on market, RNG boxes, Valks cry (Examples only). What stops them from starting to sell 300% SP scroll? Or bring new items that will make it even easier to follow the Pay to win path?

 

@OP you're missing another point regarding the top guilds. Top guilds can deal with competition but more on the principle. They progressed and worked to get to be a Top guild and most of the top guild members are not lifeless grinders, maybe 20% of them are. Even with work, studies and real life they were progressing well to keep up in terms with other competition. And now is the first step to allow people to p2w and clear understanding that daum doesn't care about our feedback or their bait-switch advertisement. They had a community that supported them and spent money on convenient items to support them as well. Now they will lose a big part of that community for short-milking of the game. 

 

People played enough MMORPGs that went that way. 

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Posted

Currently its not Pay2Win, cause we dont know the prices yet.

And wenn its like 5 mill per pet and 10 mill per costume. 50 mill per week is more likely "Pay2Catch Up"

Yours,

JuicyJanna

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Posted

You pay money, which will result in you getting better gear faster and a % damage bonus over someone who does not pay that money. Do you not understand?

You haven't read anything that i have posted  obviously. Because i have already agreed to that. I'm saying there is a cap to how much you can progress with cash. Yes it is a very hard cap to reach.But there is nothing in the game extra that you cant get without using a credit card extra.

 

Yes some people will abuse it and get a temporary advantage over someone not using credit card and yes that is unfair. But im also saying that some people cant play as long as other and would that count as unfair advantage as well?

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Posted

You haven't read anything that i have posted  obviously. Because i have already agreed to that. I'm saying there is a cap to how much you can progress with cash. Yes it is a very hard cap to reach.But there is nothing in the game extra that you cant get without using a credit card extra.

 

Yes some people will abuse it and get a temporary advantage over someone not using credit card and yes that is unfair. But im also saying that some people cant play as long as other and would that count as unfair advantage as well?

"A good example of real P2W would be pay 10 dollars and you get 10% extra pvp damage and reduction for a month."

I just told you it equates to a % bonus damage. 

Even hardcore players won't get 100% perfect gear for a crazy long time, so for the crazy long time, these people swiping their cc's will have a % bonus.

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Posted

Not long before they will start selling every progression item in cash shop now. So far our version of cash shop had removed several items due to progression advantage and imbalance for the game. On other version you are able to buy blackstones on market, RNG boxes, Valks cry (Examples only). What stops them from starting to sell 300% SP scroll? Or bring new items that will make it even easier to follow the Pay to win path?

 

so your argument that it is P2W is that it can become P2W in the future. Seems silly.

 

Currently its not Pay2Win, cause we dont know the prices yet.

And wenn its like 5 mill per pet and 10 mill per costume. 50 mill per week is more likely "Pay2Catch Up"

Yours,

JuicyJanna

Interesting point, the reward for credit card use has to at a low enough level to not blow out the water the grinders. I like it.

"A good example of real P2W would be pay 10 dollars and you get 10% extra pvp damage and reduction for a month."

I just told you it equates to a % bonus damage. 

Even hardcore players won't get 100% perfect gear for a crazy long time, so for the crazy long time, these people swiping their cc's will have a % bonus.

this is my point.

first of all. Just out of curiosity mostly. Do you think that people will get enough money to buy full Tet gear in the first week of this coming out? 

 

So hardcore players are at what stage right now like some tri gear mostly above that though. How long will it take a non hardcore player joining the game to catch up with them? and do you think that is fair? 

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Posted (edited)

You spend real money, use this RM items to get in game resources and you can buy all required materials in this currency. +this extra "income" is too high. If this requirements are in system that is P2w.  If you get 400 million silver and you can farm in this period 100 million silver in 0-24H farming that is p2w. 0-24hours farming - same income in 0 sec payment is the same shit.  So... yes. This is p2w. You can use other words but this doesn't mattter. The problem is not the p2w-p2behardu or other thing. The problem is: we pay big moneys to be sure to get non p2w and non rm-in-game-resource-direct-converter system like in other 12=dozen of games type korean trash MMOs. Company sold this product, than rework business modell. This is lie, scam and it's far away from etihcal behavior.

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

"dramatically imbalance top guilds" is that a bad thing can top guilds not deal with a little competition.

 

it has little to do with being able to handle having compitition, it's when that compitition is p2w and is progressing beyond them at a rate that isnt realistic to keep up with even for top guilds. Call me old fashioned but i sternly believe u get what u earn from your hard work and hours put into your gear and character, not mindlessly throwing money at the company to basically buy progress. If u don't put in as much time as player A did into the game, u don't deserve what he has.

I agree with your point.

However, there is a limit to how much you can progress with in-game cash, that's the point some people are almost at that limit already. There is not a limit on how far people can progress with grinding. Yes getting to 60, is nigh on crazy.
 

just out of curiosity how long do you think it would take for someone new to the game to catch up to a lvl 58 almost full pent gear to have a chance of beating them in pvp if they could only play lets say 15 hours a week?

I disagree there is little limit, given the information we have just on this update alone, 5 items given krs 100mil per costume is 800mil in 2 weeks on top of the money that person would spend that 2 weeks grinding, so let's just say an even 1.5bil which is realistic at pirates. Over that time period with an Avarage of 2ish hours a day grinding they could buy full boss gear in every slot and pri accessories in ring and earring through night Vendor. 10 chars with 250 energy through that 2 week period would get every boss item. They could even go so far as to p2w a 3rd week to upgrade their bis gear to tri even faster and the sooner they hit tri, the more time they have to prepare for tet, as the game is right now somebody in full tri boss is even better off then somebody in full TET of any other set

Dont be delusional. This is just a basic example but do u see it? There are plenty of people walking around without full boss gear and the reason isn't because of rng, it's because they don't have the resources. This directly speeds up that process.

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Posted (edited)

Progressing in a game without even playing it (for e.g. swiping your credit card, buying some energy potions and then talk to the night vendor for BiS Gear) is not a p2w mechanic? Yes we have to wait for the money -> pearl exchange rate, but that doesn't change the mechanic itself and right now every major update brings a little bit more "p2w" mechanic (or whatever you want to call it, I think you get the point what I mean with it) into the game. And better availability of cash shop items yould be easily done without such a mechanic (loyalties, login rewards, time rewards, life skill rewards, questlines, crafting recipes, npc vendors, events...). Do people who like this change think it's the best solution?

Edited by Shyrata

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Posted

You spend real money, use this RM items to get in game resources and you can buy all required materials in this currency. +this extra "income" is too high. If this requirements are in system that is P2w.  If you get 400 million silver and you can farm in this period 100 million silver in 0-24H farming that is p2w. 0-24hours farming - same income in 0 sec payment is the same shit.  So... yes. This is p2w. You can use other words but this doesn't mattter. The problem is not the p2w-p2behardu or other thing. The problem is: we pay big moneys to be sure to get non p2w and non rm-in-game-resource-direct-converter system like in other 12=dozen of games type korean trash MMOs. Company sold this product, than rework business modell. This is lie, scam and it's far away from etihcal behavior.

yeah it is pay to get ahead, but it doesn't give you an unfair advantage, because you cant buy anything you cant get with ingame cash. You really want to cry about something look at horse breeding, that is P2W.

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Posted

Another noname posting pro p2w bs. Rly starting to think they hired some asians to turn public opinion around or make it seem like enough people wanting this so they can push this crappy system through our throats

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Posted (edited)

 

I disagree there is little limit, given the information we have just on this update alone, 5 items given krs 100mil per costume is 800mil in 2 weeks on top of the money that person would spend that 2 weeks grinding, so let's just say an even 1.5bil which is realistic at pirates. Over that time period with an Avarage of 2ish hours a day grinding they could buy full boss gear in every slot and pri accessories in ring and earring through night Vendor. 10 chars with 250 energy through that 2 week period would get every boss item. They could even go so far as to p2w a 3rd week to upgrade their bis gear to tri even faster and the sooner they hit tri, the more time they have to prepare for tet, as the game is right now somebody in full tri boss is even better off then somebody in full TET of any other set

Dont be delusional. This is just a basic example but do u see it? There are plenty of people walking around without full boss gear and the reason isn't because of rng, it's because they don't have the resources. This directly speeds up that process.

800 mil from credit card. 700 mil from grinding . What if they couldn't use a credit card and could only grind for 5 hours would they always be at a disadvantage should we limit everyone to only be able to grind as much as the lowest person? a few hours a week only of grinding as we dont want anyone to have an advantage

now lets say they work hard at work want to unwind with a game and dont mind spending a bit of money on catching up and having fun with their guild. 

Edited by Greenwolf

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Posted (edited)

yeah it is pay to get ahead, but it doesn't give you an unfair advantage, because you cant buy anything you cant get with ingame cash. You really want to cry about something look at horse breeding, that is P2W.

You missed the point. We BUY this game because we CAN'T get advantage vs real money. That was one of the most important property of this game for many players. We don't care the p2w or just "small payed advantages" . We BUY other game. Publisher/devs rework this system and offer average pathetic trash system. We don't care that this is better or worst than other p2w MMOs in MMO  market. We don't care the feelings of koreans whales. We pay to get "product A" and company delivered "product B".

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted (edited)

Another noname posting pro p2w bs. Rly starting to think they hired some asians to turn public opinion around or make it seem like enough people wanting this so they can push this crappy system through our throats

read the posts before you reply. I agree it is P2W it is an advantage, all im saying is it is not much more of an advantage over the people who can grind 50 hours a week. Yes some people will abuse it and get more of an advantage, but some people already have a huge advantage over others because they play non stop for 60 hours.

"No name" you elitist prick. "Oh look at me. I'm better than you cos im known by more people in the gaming community that you are."

If you cant be bothered to read before insulting op dont post on the forums. 

You missed the point. We BUY this game because we CAN'T get advantage vs real money. That was one of the most important property of this game for many players. We don't care the p2w or just "small payed advantages" . We BUY other game. Publisher/devs rework this system and offer average pathetic trash system. We don't carre that this is better or worst in p2w MMO market. We don't care the feelings of koreans whales. We pay to get "product A" and company delivered "product B".

yes i agree that the mis representation of marketing should allow people to get a refund if they bought the game under the premise that there will be no systems like this put into the game. Unfortunatly we know this won't happen. *sad face"

Edited by Greenwolf

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