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The problem with the TERM "p2w"

85 posts in this topic

Posted

I've said this repeatedly, well before this most recent issue (feel free to ask people like @scau or @woots ) that the term "p2w" is extremely problematic because it's basically opinion.

"p2w" is not a strictly defined term and as such loses all meaning when trying to convince anyone who doesn't agree with you that something is or isn't p2w.

The term can range from everything to even the most slight advantage possible to the most egregious forms of selling power like gear that you literally cannot get any way besides paying that is so superior to anything offered in any other way that non-paying customers are literally powerless against it and the only recourse is to out-spend the other guy.

Endlessly bickering with each other over if something is or isn't p2w is a sincere waste of energy because in nearly every instance people's minds were made up before you even had the conversation and nothing said is going to change that.

Here's a tip, for both sides of this particular conversation...

Keep your "anti-p2w" logos or "say yes to p2w" or whatever... labels are not without merit because it's difficult to relay more complex ideas in short order but when you actually come to *discuss* this kind of thing try re-framing your argument to something like this:

"I feel x change is unhealthy for the game because <insert reason>"
"I don't care for x change so I cannot support a game that does it."
"X change is really not as bad as you're making it out to be."
"I have to disagree that x change is a bad thing, it's actually a good thing because <insert reason>."

Oh and since we're at it... If you feel the need to say something like "idiot, moron, f**ktard, retard, stupid" etc etc etc when making your case... your argument very likely sucks.

-Baki

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Posted

Very correct. Everyone has their own views on what p2w actually is. It's tiresome when every single person speaking their mind assumes their version of the definition is the only. 

Sometimes I think the combination of entitlement paired with lack of respect for each other is toxic and creates long periods of wasted time. xD 

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Posted

The problem with P2W as a term? everyone defines all their problem is because of P2W.

fGoCrFH.gif


The only definition of P2W is if you pay 2 win. As in stuff you buy with real cash that will literary win you the game which is impossible in MMO worlds lol since you cant win, because nobody cares. Heck, the only say you won in BDO is if you own all regions, and defend it for a month (maybe), then you win. But thats the brilliance of BDO, there are alot of frontiers to win, but majority of the people are stupid enough to think the end content is only grinding when there are OTHER THINGS TO DO IN THE GAME. 

That brainless grinding mindset, thats why the term is being used by majority of the community because all they think is going out to the field and grinding their brains out. Zombies... ZOMBIES EVERYWHERE. 


You cannot win a game that is never ending, thats just not possible.

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Posted

Oh and since we're at it... If you feel the need to say something like "idiot, moron, f**ktard, retard, stupid" etc etc etc when making your case... your argument very likely sucks.

lDrMOwH.png

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Posted

I see not much room to have an opinion here.

Pay2Win means: pay is cause, win is effect, with luck completely taken out of the equation.

Nobody would EVER call a lottery being "pay2win" simply because your chance gets minimal higher when you buy multiple lottery tickets. 

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Posted


The only definition of P2W is if you pay 2 win. As in stuff you buy with real cash that will literary win you the game which is impossible in MMO worlds lol since you cant win, because nobody cares. 

Two things here.

Firstly, it's the only definition *you* accept. And that is entirely your prerogative but just like the people who say this is p2w it also simultaneously isn't. The reason everyone seems to blame p2w is because it is a very nebulous term and people have different takes on it.

Secondly, pretty sure you can win and lose territory, win and lose fights, win and lose matches... While there is no ultimate and implicit win states there are indeed wins and losses to be had.

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Posted

lDrMOwH.png

Not sure but I think he's trying to tell you you're a toolbag.

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Posted

lDrMOwH.png

Right, but you know my argument there was that you were a toolbag and I stand by it. In fact my entire argument was that you're not worth arguing with in the first place because you ignore rational discourse and I even went in length to explain this to you.

You know for a fact you caught that insult after directly insulting me and it's even in that post.

So thanks for the bump and the off-topic shitpost.

Cheers.

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Posted

Right, but you know my argument there was that you were a toolbag and I stand by it. In fact my entire argument was that you're not worth arguing with in the first place because you ignore rational discourse and I even went in length to explain this to you.

Ah, so what you mean is that it's not ok to use insults if you're trying to get a point across but it is ok to insult if you're just trying to insult. 

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Posted

F**ktard hehehe

 

Good points Bak.

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Posted

Ah, so what you mean is that it's not ok to use insults if you're trying to get a point across but it is ok to insult if you're just trying to insult. 

I never said anything about insults being ok or not ok.

Just that if you have to use an insult to relay an argument it likely sucks. Notice that "likely" because I generally tend to choose my words very carefully.

Do note, this is the last time I respond to you unless you have something relevant to add to the discussion at hand, there's plenty of other threads for you to troll.

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Posted

Voluntary mods are out of control and they should be removed.

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Posted

Voluntary mods are out of control and they should be removed.


http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/announcement/4-forum-rules/
 

8. Appeal Forum Moderations

  • Threads deemed inappropriate to a particular forum will be moved to a more appropriate forum or even removed completely. Threads that have been removed or closed are not to be re-posted.
  • The User shall not discuss specific cases of moderated posts or disciplinary actions against users on the forum.
  • If the User disagrees with an action taken by the moderator team, an e-mail should be send to forumdisputes@blackdesertonline.com.
  • An uninvolved Community Manager will then review the case.

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Posted

@DarkMagic for you to see also.

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Posted (edited)

Ah, so what you mean is that it's not ok to use insults if you're trying to get a point across but it is ok to insult if you're just trying to insult. 

I think what he meant was, you're a toolbag who dresses up thinly veiled insults in smug little packages of fake civility. While being a toolbag, because you're a toolbag. Doing toolbag things. :D

Edited by Callous2208
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Posted (edited)

Because everybody can have differing opinions on what constitutes P2W and what does not, when it comes to Black Desert Online I think the most important definition of P2W should be what the publishers themselves define as P2W.

Why I say that is because the publisher had been listening to player concerns and feedback in relation to P2W and adjusted the NA/EU version accordingly. They have been attempting to soothe concerns about P2W, and to tell players that they want to avoid it, since before the game even launched. What they marketed to us was therefore their concept of what a P2W-free Black Desert Online looked like, with certain features or items removed.

With that in mind, what the publisher had publicly discussed as being P2W included the ability to sell cash shop items on the marketplace. Meaning they saw that as a P2W feature.

That is why the debate over whether it is or is not P2W is completely irrelevant. The publisher considers it to be, marking their departure from their wish to provide NA/EU with a P2W-free version of Black Desert Online.

Note that I said "wish" and not promise. They had never promised to keep this out, and so they did not lie about it. In fact they left the door open to bring it in after the launch phase - which we are now beyond - and many of us had predicted the 6 month mark as when it would happen. However, there are other ways that they could address the problems like access to the cash shop or imbalances between casual and hardcore players without resorting to P2W. These other solutions could potentially improve the game and make it an even greater success than it has already been.

Edited by scau

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Posted

Modern politics is what it is. "Nuspeak", if you will.

The value of undefined terms is that it allows you to gather a larger constituency than stricter terms would. In the same way, irrational emotional rhetoric garners more support than reasoned logic.

There is no purpose to all this, it's merely "will to power" in action. They don't care what the consequences are, as long as they have an effect.

So yeh, trying to define "P2W" is a waste of time. Trying to offer reasonable objections is a waste of time. Kakao and Pearl Abyss are under attack by a group whose only goal is to take them down, and "P2W" is their weapon.

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Posted

I never said anything about insults being ok or not ok.
Just that if you have to use an insult to relay an argument it likely sucks. Notice that "likely" because I generally tend to choose my words very carefully.

Do note, this is the last time I respond to you unless you have something relevant to add to the discussion at hand, there's plenty of other threads for you to troll.

In this case, the usage of the word toolbag was well placed. 

In any case the arguments become irrelevant when one person is a complete white-knighting troll shitposter. And for some reason shitposting garners more likes than well thought out posts. Go figure...

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Posted

With that in mind, what the publisher had publicly discussed as being P2W included the ability to sell cash shop items on the marketplace. Meaning they saw that as a P2W feature.

That is why the debate over whether it is or is not P2W is completely irrelevant. The publisher considers it to be, marking their departure from their wish to provide NA/EU with a P2W-free version of Black Desert Online.

I think this is a valid point to bring to the conversation; Was it in the wiggles Q&A with Jouska and Van Beem? I'm trying to find it and time stamp it.

Modern politics is what it is. "Nuspeak", if you will.

The value of undefined terms is that it allows you to gather a larger constituency than stricter terms would. In the same way, irrational emotional rhetoric garners more support than reasoned logic.

There is no purpose to all this, it's merely "will to power" in action. They don't care what the consequences are, as long as they have an effect.

So yeh, trying to define "P2W" is a waste of time. Trying to offer reasonable objections is a waste of time. Kakao and Pearl Abyss are under attack by a group whose only goal is to take them down, and "P2W" is their weapon.

Largely agree.

But this is also why I made some suggestions on framing arguments differently to convey your point if you're actually trying to have a discussion.

I mean... I'm not sure many of the posters on the forums *genuinely* want to have a discussion... but that's a different matter entirely.

It's easy to argue against "This is p2w" and harder to argue against "I feel like this is p2w and unacceptable because it could damage the game" and worst case you'll  have a better discussion assuming the opposing argument actually makes valid counter-arguments.

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Posted (edited)

I think this is a valid point to bring to the conversation; Was it in the wiggles Q&A with Jouska and Van Beem? I'm trying to find it and time stamp it.

It was in an interview between "Docgotgame" and Jouska.

The P2W discussion takes place between 9:00 to 12:30. Near the latter part of that discussion one of the chat users specifically asked about selling cash shop items on the marketplace. Jouska spotted the question and addressed it. After that Docgotgame switched the topic off of P2W and back onto the game itself.

As well back near 9:55 Jouska also specifically mentioned being able to buy the buff item and sell it on the auction house (in KR). When he's talking about that item now being a loyalty item, he makes sure to mention that it can no longer be sold on the auction house either.

This, combined with the later response to the costume question, I think makes it pretty clear that the sale of cash shop items was something that they considered P2W, and thus had eliminated from our version "at this stage" (the same kind of wording as Belsazar's post mentioning "during the launch phase").

Edited by scau
Combined second page post to this one since it's over the same point

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Posted

Because everybody can have differing opinions on what constitutes P2W and what does not, when it comes to Black Desert Online I think the most important definition of P2W should be what the publishers themselves define as P2W.

Why I say that is because the publisher had been listening to player concerns and feedback in relation to P2W and adjusted the NA/EU version accordingly. They have been attempting to soothe concerns about P2W, and to tell players that they want to avoid it, since before the game even launched. What they marketed to us was therefore their concept of what a P2W Black Desert Online looked like, with certain features or items removed.

With that in mind, what the publisher had publicly discussed as being P2W included the ability to sell cash shop items on the marketplace. Meaning they saw that as a P2W feature.

 

All jokes aside, this is a very well thought out and valid point. Hard to argue with this. The publisher did indeed make it known that this particular feature was considered p2w by their own standards, then campaigned on the platform that they would fight to maintain a game free of such things.

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Posted

It doesn't make sense to use any other definition of P2W than the one that the devs explained, because that's what all changes will be based on.

Making "the true and only definition what P2W is" the main topic of each discussion does indeed not help anyone, you are just driving away new players that come to the forum and see a "community" spam their own forum so it's not usable anymore.

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Posted

If we use olympics as a example, paying to win legally doesn't happen. You can pay for the best trainers, equipment etc, but will only give a marginal advantage since all the other top olympic athletes probably have similar facilities to train in. Now if you add illegal things like performance enhancing drugs, or hidden electric motors inside of the bicycle frame etc that gives you an advantage that other athletes do not have legal access to, then that's a problem.  If enforcement is laxed, then everyone will end up doing it and to compete at the same level as other athletes you have to get better at not getting caught. 

In BDO there are no items in the cash shop that gives players distinct advantages, and all the silver will do is give them better access to better gear. You still can't technically "win" but it makes you ahead of the pack.... just like if an athlete could sell their "soul" to have unlimited access to training facilities, food prep, and medical support. In essence its more like pay for SIGNIFICANT advantages. 

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Posted


http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/announcement/4-forum-rules/
 

8. Appeal Forum Moderations

  • Threads deemed inappropriate to a particular forum will be moved to a more appropriate forum or even removed completely. Threads that have been removed or closed are not to be re-posted.
  • The User shall not discuss specific cases of moderated posts or disciplinary actions against users on the forum.
  • If the User disagrees with an action taken by the moderator team, an e-mail should be send to forumdisputes@blackdesertonline.com.
  • An uninvolved Community Manager will then review the case.

you should apply for mod.

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Posted

It was in an interview between "Docgotgame" and Jouska.

The P2W discussion takes place between 9:00 to 12:30. Near the latter part of that discussion one of the chat users specifically asked about selling cash shop items on the marketplace. Jouska spotted the question and addressed it. After that Docgotgame switched the topic off of P2W and back onto the game itself.

11:58 "One of the viewers, joey_zombie, he's asked 'can you buy a costume on the market and sell it on the auction house?' No. In our region the items that you purchased from the auction house, they're yours. You cannot go and re-list them. At this stage there is no link to between you monitizing and being able to sell something in game; that is a link that has been broken"

It's questionable... and he was careful to cover with that "at this stage" qualifier. I'm not saying that your point is entirely without merit but it's also not concrete.

 

you should apply for mod.

Not only could you not pay me to do it, I have a warning on my account ;)

It's a rule violation for me to discuss what happened, but I still think it was a bs point.

But as for the mod thing without considering the point... I enjoy being able to freely express myself and call bulls**t when I see it regardless of if it's a player or if it's Daum

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