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The problem with the TERM "p2w"

85 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

It was in an interview between "Docgotgame" and Jouska.

The P2W discussion takes place between 9:00 to 12:30. Near the latter part of that discussion one of the chat users specifically asked about selling cash shop items on the marketplace. Jouska spotted the question and addressed it. After that Docgotgame switched the topic off of P2W and back onto the game itself.

 

P2W discussion happened. Josuka talked about it. Docgame ended the discussion. Josuka saw a viewer's question about cash shop asking if they can currently buy and list costumes in auction house. He answered it saying no and mentioned at later stage. At no point on the answering, he referred anything as P2W. The viewer wasn't referring P2W and neither did Josuka. 

 

You've been

D U P E D

Nicolas-Cage-Trying-to-hold-in-laughter.

Edited by Kramer

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11:58 "One of the viewers, joey_zombie, he's asked 'can you buy a costume on the market and sell it on the auction house?' No. In our region the items that you purchased from the auction house, they're yours. You cannot go and re-list them. At this stage there is no link to between you monitizing and being able to sell something in game; that is a link that has been broken"

It's questionable... and he was careful to cover with that "at this stage" qualifier. I'm not saying that your point is entirely without merit but it's also not concrete.

As well back near 9:55 Jouska also specifically mentioned being able to buy the buff item and sell it on the auction house (in KR). When he's talking about that item now being a loyalty item, he makes sure to mention that it can no longer be sold on the auction house either.

This, combined with the later response to the costume question, I think makes it pretty clear that the sale of cash shop items was something that they considered P2W, and thus had eliminated from our version "at this stage" (the same kind of wording as Belsazar's post mentioning "during the launch phase").

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Not only could you not pay me to do it, I have a warning on my account ;)

It's a rule violation for me to discuss what happened, but I still think it was a bs point.

But as for the mod thing without considering the point... I enjoy being able to freely express myself and call bulls**t when I see it regardless of if it's a player or if it's Daum

Hah,,, you would be the last person that I would expect to have a warning on their account. Knowing you, it was probably over something that the other person was wrong and you were using your famous multi-vectored logic attack against the person to destroy their argument. Then the mod probably interpreted that as a personal attack or something

Yeah being a mod sucks. No benefit, and the only people that make a fuss over being a mod are people who get on a power trip posting overtly authoritative messages, banning people and deleting posts. 

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I've said this repeatedly, well before this most recent issue (feel free to ask people like @scau or @woots ) that the term "p2w" is extremely problematic because it's basically opinion.

No, P2W isn't an opinion, it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years for a toxic, anti-consumer business model.

Immediate power = P2W. i.e.: "Oh, well I just spent 15$ dollars to rent level 60 armor despite me being only level 1, for 7 days. I don't have to spend ingame money for gear or anything!"

Getting power substantially more easily without putting in the same kind of effort (a statue of limitation has long been in place due to subscriptions becoming an optional service) = P2W

An all-time, non-situational amount of power disproportionate to your level/hours played due to money expenditure = P2W

 

P2W does not mean what you think it means. It isn't a catch all term, albeit it does encompass a broad net of issues in the MMO genre. The issue is with the mass majority of people using P2W in demagoguery and game-shaming. To this day, I will defend the ghillie suit and the value pack to the death because while they cross a line, they do so in such an insubstantial fashion that they can remain optional.

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P2W discussion happened. Josuka talked about it. Docgame ended the discussion. Josuka saw a viewer's question about cash shop asking if they can currently buy and list costumes in auction house. He answered it saying no and mentioned at later stage. At no point on the answering, he referred anything as P2W. The viewer wasn't referring P2W and neither did Josuka.

Unfortunately that is not the correct timeline of events. Docgotgame ended the P2W discussion after Jouska's response to the chat question and moved on to asking a question about PvP. The P2W subject had not yet been moved on from when Jouska addressed the chat question, stating in no uncertain terms that there is no ability for players to sell cash shop on the marketplace in our version (at this stage). This was within the P2W context still, and they moved on to a new subject afterward.

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Posted

Unfortunately that is not the correct timeline of events. Docgotgame ended the P2W discussion after Jouska's response to the chat question and moved on to asking a question about PvP. The P2W subject had not yet been moved on from when Jouska addressed the chat question, stating in no uncertain terms that there is no ability for players to sell cash shop on the marketplace in our version (at this stage). This was within the P2W context still, and they moved on to a new subject afterward.

So because the interviewer ended the discussion saying P2W, that means Josuka also meant it even though he never said itD U M B. That only implies Docgotgame thought it was part of P2W discussion, not Josuka. Unless Josuka states it and only then, it says he acknowledges selling cash shop items in auction house would be P2W. 

And don't bother bringing up the previous convo about Josuka listing two items as P2W and saying all cash shop items would also be P2W. He listed 2 items specifically and called them P2W, not the whole cash shop nor selling cash shop costumes.

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No, P2W isn't an opinion, it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years for a toxic, anti-consumer business model.

Immediate power = P2W. i.e.: "Oh, well I just spent 15$ dollars to rent level 60 armor despite me being only level 1, for 7 days. I don't have to spend ingame money for gear or anything!"

Getting power substantially more easily without putting in the same kind of effort (a statue of limitation has long been in place due to subscriptions becoming an optional service) = P2W

An all-time, non-situational amount of power disproportionate to your level/hours played due to money expenditure = P2W

 

P2W does not mean what you think it means. It isn't a catch all term, albeit it does encompass a broad net of issues in the MMO genre. The issue is with the mass majority of people using P2W in demagoguery and game-shaming. To this day, I will defend the ghillie suit and the value pack to the death because while they cross a line, they do so in such an insubstantial fashion that they can remain optional.

The final definition of P2W is unfair no matter how you twist it's words or say it isn't P2W all because you can't directly buy power of the cash shop (which btw what an arguement lol I mean ya you can't but you can still turn real money into ingame currency with just a few more steps involved and then buy that direct power not from the cashsop but from the AH, Obviously they have no idea the real power of silver in BDO). But ya no matter what definition somone thinks P2W has, The final definition of P2W is definitely unfair and by unfairs definition is how everyone should see P2W. Honestly we should've just stuck with unfair instead of P2W because trolls will just pick at it saying "it's not a real thing blah blah blah".

For those trolls who can't be bothered to look up the definition of unfair.

un·fair
ˌənˈfer/
adjective
 
  1. not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    "at times like these the legal system appears inhumane and unfair"
    synonyms:unjustinequitableprejudicedbiaseddiscriminatoryMore
     
     
     
     
      

And anyone who doesn't know the principles of equality and justice is either a lieing troll or pure evil simple as that.

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The final definition of P2W is unfair no matter how you twist it's words or say it isn't P2W all because you can't directly buy power of the cash shop (which btw what an arguement lol I mean ya you can't but you can still turn real money into ingame currency with just a few more steps involved and then buy that direct power not from the cashsop but from the AH, Obviously they have no idea the real power of silver in BDO). But ya no matter what definition somone thinks P2W has, The final definition of P2W is definitely unfair and by unfairs definition is how everyone should see P2W. Honestly we should've just stuck with unfair instead of P2W because trolls will just pick at it saying "it's not a real thing blah blah blah".

For those trolls who can't be bothered to look up the definition of unfair.

un·fair
ˌənˈfer/
adjective
 
  1. not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    "at times like these the legal system appears inhumane and unfair"
    synonyms:unjustinequitableprejudicedbiaseddiscriminatoryMore
     
     
     
     
      

And anyone who doesn't know the principles of equality and justice is either a lieing troll or pure evil simple as that.

tumblr_m39otr9qs51rpg9v8o1_500.gif

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Posted

Two things here.
Firstly, it's the only definition *you* accept. And that is entirely your prerogative but just like the people who say this is p2w it also simultaneously isn't. The reason everyone seems to blame p2w is because it is a very nebulous term and people have different takes on it.

Secondly, pretty sure you can win and lose territory, win and lose fights, win and lose matches... While there is no ultimate and implicit win states there are indeed wins and losses to be had.

1. Pretty sure thats the most logical definition of P2W. Everything we have in the cash shop are pay4convenience. The pets = loot, whats stopping you from looting? costume = exp, whats stopping you from getting exp? etc. No functionality in the game is prohibited behind paying. P2W is only truly possible with cash shop if I can run at 100mph with cash shop item, and you cant, which is not possible at all, ever.

2. Im talking about in the grander scale, you do not win in BDO, you and everyone else are random people (including I), the story has no end, so you never win. Theres only 1 definition of Win, and that is be victorious. You cant be a grand winner in BDO, its impossible. A game that has a complete win in it are RPG games where in the end, your goal is achieved. MMOs dont have that, theyre always gonna be competition to beat, and someone is always better than you, always. Even the +20 guys have to compete with one another, and at that point its base on skills. 

MMOs sole purpose is to keep players playing, which in turn would make the players likely to spend cash on the game.



Youre right though, since P2W is not define, everyone and everyones mothers are defining everything as p2w.

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Posted

So because the interviewer ended the discussion saying P2W, that means Josuka also meant it even though he never said itD U M B. That only implies Docgotgame thought it was part of P2W discussion, not Josuka. Unless Josuka states it and only then, it says he acknowledges selling cash shop items in auction house would be P2W. 

And don't bother bringing up the previous convo about Josuka listing two items as P2W and saying all cash shop items would also be P2W. He listed 2 items specifically and called them P2W, not the whole cash shop nor selling cash shop costumes.

Jouska (or any other Daum employee) commenting on it would be the ideal resolution.

They launched the game without the ability to sell cash shop items on the marketplace, and I think everybody knows the reason why they did that, but for those who are confused about the reasoning than a formal explanation would help them out.

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Jouska (or any other Daum employee) commenting on it would be the ideal resolution.

They launched the game without the ability to sell cash shop items on the marketplace, and I think everybody knows the reason why they did that, but for those who are confused about the reasoning than a formal explanation would help them out.

I won't argue they confused people since 2/3 of you fell for it. I will argue that you said Daum/Kakao thinks selling cash shop items for ingame currency is p2w since it never happened.

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There is not really a need to discuss the term P2W anymore... I think most ppl have a quite good idea what it means, but everyone have their own idea of what truly is P2W. 

So yeahhh... 

 

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Posted (edited)

There is only one true definition of P2W.

Pay to Win: "An advantage that can only be obtained with Real Life Money." Which is what the game did from day 1.

Edited by The_ID10t_Effect

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I won't argue they confused people since 2/3 of you fell for it. I will argue that you said Daum/Kakao thinks selling cash shop items for ingame currency is p2w since it never happened.

You are free to have that opinion, but unless Jouska or another Daum representative says otherwise I think most people who listen to that interview would interpret it as meaning that the sale of cash shop items on the marketplace were among the features that they considered to be P2W, hence why the game did not launch with it. After all, that is the context of the discussion in which the question was asked and addressed within.

I don't know if it is 2/3, but I would agree a sizable group of players seemed to have been under the belief that our version would never have this or other P2W features. There were quite a few of us who were well aware that the door had been left open for it though, and we had expected it to happen eventually.

As I had said in my first post in this thread though, there are other solutions to the problems they say are the cause of bringing in this 'feature'. By taking a different route they could potentially make the game an even greater success, so my personal preference would be for them to work with the playerbase to find a solution that everyone is happy with.

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I won't argue they confused people since 2/3 of you fell for it. I will argue that you said Daum/Kakao thinks selling cash shop items for ingame currency is p2w since it never happened.

Idk where people got the confusion tbh, most just went P2W and try twist old stuff to DAUM PROMISE NO P2W!!! xD More are "shocked" that Kakao actually did this, as it is quite widely know p2w kinda destroy the reputation of a game, atleast when they implement it like this. (B2P, expensive costumes, alot small bonus in cash shop, the value pack... and now sellable cash shop items.) I for one went straight holy shit how much money do they really need to keep the servers alive??? when I know the average player in my guild spent 200$ already on the cash shop alone! 

and now all the bullshit the mods pulled on the forums over the weekend, straight up deleting Hot topics, banning users who actually put tought in their posts etc...

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I've said this repeatedly, well before this most recent issue (feel free to ask people like @scau or @woots ) that the term "p2w" is extremely problematic because it's basically opinion.

"p2w" is not a strictly defined term and as such loses all meaning when trying to convince anyone who doesn't agree with you that something is or isn't p2w.

The term can range from everything to even the most slight advantage possible to the most egregious forms of selling power like gear that you literally cannot get any way besides paying that is so superior to anything offered in any other way that non-paying customers are literally powerless against it and the only recourse is to out-spend the other guy.

Endlessly bickering with each other over if something is or isn't p2w is a sincere waste of energy because in nearly every instance people's minds were made up before you even had the conversation and nothing said is going to change that.

Here's a tip, for both sides of this particular conversation...

Keep your "anti-p2w" logos or "say yes to p2w" or whatever... labels are not without merit because it's difficult to relay more complex ideas in short order but when you actually come to *discuss* this kind of thing try re-framing your argument to something like this:

"I feel x change is unhealthy for the game because <insert reason>"
"I don't care for x change so I cannot support a game that does it."
"X change is really not as bad as you're making it out to be."
"I have to disagree that x change is a bad thing, it's actually a good thing because <insert reason>."

Oh and since we're at it... If you feel the need to say something like "idiot, moron, f**ktard, retard, stupid" etc etc etc when making your case... your argument very likely sucks.

-Baki

I agree, i use the logo to say i'm against these changes, not because i find these changes p2w.

I'm against these changes because they simply promote not playing the damn game, and pay to bypass instead. Convenience makes your experience more comfortable and increases the return on time investment, people still have to play. Instant irl money to silver promotes camping AH and Patriago, and nothing else.

Give players more VP options, do not implement instant bypass mechanics.

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Hah,,, you would be the last person that I would expect to have a warning on their account. Knowing you, it was probably over something that the other person was wrong and you were using your famous multi-vectored logic attack against the person to destroy their argument. Then the mod probably interpreted that as a personal attack or something

Yeah being a mod sucks. No benefit, and the only people that make a fuss over being a mod are people who get on a power trip posting overtly authoritative messages, banning people and deleting posts. 

It was over something that could be interpreted as abusive even if that's not really what I was trying to say.
I would give you better details but I'd rather not risk a second warning point because I talked about it, lets just say I was getting at not being something :P (moral of the story, don't even use expletives even indirectly if someone could interpret that being aimed at someone.)


 

As well back near 9:55 Jouska also specifically mentioned being able to buy the buff item and sell it on the auction house (in KR). When he's talking about that item now being a loyalty item, he makes sure to mention that it can no longer be sold on the auction house either.

This, combined with the later response to the costume question, I think makes it pretty clear that the sale of cash shop items was something that they considered P2W, and thus had eliminated from our version "at this stage" (the same kind of wording as Belsazar's post mentioning "during the launch phase").

I understand. Like I said there is some merit to what you are getting at in terms of framing a general spirit about p2w but it falls a bit short of being concrete because of careful wording. This video was the first place I looked to trying to find a "gotcha" only to catch another carefully worded save.

 

No, P2W isn't an opinion, it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years for a toxic, anti-consumer business model.

Immediate power = P2W. i.e.: "Oh, well I just spent 15$ dollars to rent level 60 armor despite me being only level 1, for 7 days. I don't have to spend ingame money for gear or anything!"

Getting power substantially more easily without putting in the same kind of effort (a statue of limitation has long been in place due to subscriptions becoming an optional service) = P2W

An all-time, non-situational amount of power disproportionate to your level/hours played due to money expenditure = P2W

 

P2W does not mean what you think it means. It isn't a catch all term, albeit it does encompass a broad net of issues in the MMO genre. The issue is with the mass majority of people using P2W in demagoguery and game-shaming. To this day, I will defend the ghillie suit and the value pack to the death because while they cross a line, they do so in such an insubstantial fashion that they can remain optional.

The final definition of P2W is unfair no matter how you twist it's words or say it isn't P2W all because you can't directly buy power of the cash shop (which btw what an arguement lol I mean ya you can't but you can still turn real money into ingame currency with just a few more steps involved and then buy that direct power not from the cashsop but from the AH, Obviously they have no idea the real power of silver in BDO). But ya no matter what definition somone thinks P2W has, The final definition of P2W is definitely unfair and by unfairs definition is how everyone should see P2W. Honestly we should've just stuck with unfair instead of P2W because trolls will just pick at it saying "it's not a real thing blah blah blah".

There is not really a need to discuss the term P2W anymore... I think most ppl have a quite good idea what it means, but everyone have their own idea of what truly is P2W. 

So yeahhh... 

 

There is only one true definition of P2W.

Pay to Win: "An advantage that can only be obtained with Real Life Money." Which is what the game did from day 1.

 Notice 3 different people all p2w is not an opinion and there is only one definition.

And they all have different definitions.

Interesting.

And Valtzu I threw you in there as to say "Maybe we do." ;)

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It was over something that could be interpreted as abusive even if that's not really what I was trying to say.I would give you better details but I'd rather not risk a second warning point because I talked about it, lets just say I was getting at not being something :P (moral of the story, don't even use expletives even indirectly if someone could interpret that being aimed at someone.)

 

I understand. Like I said there is some merit to what you are getting at in terms of framing a general spirit about p2w but it falls a bit short of being concrete because of careful wording. This video was the first place I looked to trying to find a "gotcha" only to catch another carefully worded save.

 

 

 Notice 3 different people all p2w is not an opinion and there is only one definition.

And they all have different definitions.

Interesting.

And Valtzu I threw you in there as to say "Maybe we do." ;)

the other guys are wrong.

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Posted

the other guys are wrong.

And wanna bet they think the same thing about yours?

And you all think it's logical?

 

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the other guys are wrong.

This made me giggle :D

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Posted (edited)

And wanna bet they think the same thing about yours?
And you all think it's logical?

 

If they do they would invalidate there own definition, because the definition i used includes theirs and many others.

This made me giggle :D

*Bow*

Edited by The_ID10t_Effect

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Posted

Notice 3 different people all p2w is not an opinion and there is only one definition.


And they all have different definitions.

Interesting.

And Valtzu I threw you in there as to say "Maybe we do." ;)

Read:

No, P2W isn't an opinion, it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years for a toxic, anti-consumer business model.

Immediate power = P2W. i.e.: "Oh, well I just spent 15$ dollars to rent level 60 armor despite me being only level 1, for 7 days. I don't have to spend ingame money for gear or anything!"

Getting power substantially more easily without putting in the same kind of effort (a statue of limitation has long been in place due to subscriptions becoming an optional service) = P2W

An all-time, non-situational amount of power disproportionate to your level/hours played due to money expenditure = P2W

 

P2W does not mean what you think it means. It isn't a catch all term, albeit it does encompass a broad net of issues in the MMO genre. The issue is with the mass majority of people using P2W in demagoguery and game-shaming. To this day, I will defend the ghillie suit and the value pack to the death because while they cross a line, they do so in such an insubstantial fashion that they can remain optional.

I don't mind discussion, but if you are trying to punch holes into my logic, please reconsider what you use next time instead of giving me validation. thank you very much.

Nothing they've said contradicts me, even when I said quite bluntly, "No, P2W isn't an opinion".

 

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Right, but you know my argument there was that you were a toolbag and I stand by it. In fact my entire argument was that you're not worth arguing with in the first place because you ignore rational discourse and I even went in length to explain this to you.
You know for a fact you caught that insult after directly insulting me and it's even in that post.

So thanks for the bump and the off-topic shitpost.

Cheers.

Ok i dont like doing this but i will. So the guy tells you: You are doing something wrong. What is your response to that ? Saying that he insulted you with cheating the rules ?!?!?!?

I play handball and my coach allways tells us we are doing something wrong. So most of the kids in team hate that? Do you know why or do i have to point that out aswell ?

Imho he didnt insult you. He just said you are doing something wrong. You found it insulting because it did hurt you. He might  be right or maybe wrong. But your whole answer is that you openly insult people and thats fine ?!?!? and not a finest insult that you used....toolbags built our world :) 

 

Now back to the subject. I see P2W as a term likely used as an excuse for failure. I see people complain about "no-lifers" all the time.To me its just 2 diff groups that only cry.  I dont like direction this game is going to. But i enjoyed it so far and as long as you are able to avoid paying to get top gear i am fine with it. People find excuses for their failures all the time..... they use energy to flame, instead they should find a solution to the problem. Its allways easier to do that. Path of least resistance. 

Tbh i thought that i will leave the game when it goes to "P2W", but ive decided that it wont stop me for playing it.Ive enjoyed it so much and since i dont have to pay anything to WIN i will still play it. Only thing i dont like about it is that maybe a lot of people will leave. But again imho i think they should leave if that upsets them so bad. 

And for the conclusion i dont like this stuff they will/try to implement. I see lots of cons for it, but i see lots of pros for it.....

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Posted (edited)

1. Pretty sure thats the most logical definition of P2W. Everything we have in the cash shop are pay4convenience. The pets = loot, whats stopping you from looting? costume = exp, whats stopping you from getting exp? etc. No functionality in the game is prohibited behind paying. P2W is only truly possible with cash shop if I can run at 100mph with cash shop item, and you cant, which is not possible at all, ever.
2. Im talking about in the grander scale, you do not win in BDO, you and everyone else are random people (including I), the story has no end, so you never win. Theres only 1 definition of Win, and that is be victorious. You cant be a grand winner in BDO, its impossible. A game that has a complete win in it are RPG games where in the end, your goal is achieved. MMOs dont have that, theyre always gonna be competition to beat, and someone is always better than you, always. Even the +20 guys have to compete with one another, and at that point its base on skills. 

MMOs sole purpose is to keep players playing, which in turn would make the players likely to spend cash on the game.



Youre right though, since P2W is not define, everyone and everyones mothers are defining everything as p2w.

1.) May and may not be. I can point you in the direction of well formulated arguments, like @Sadhana 's post on this thread.

2.) True, but you know "win" is going to mean different things to different people as well. And while you may not measure the wins as being final they will be finite over the span of a person's time in BDO and a consistent trend of being stomped by people who pay will make them feel like they're losing and people who pay are winning. When a game offers no path to that if people are honest with themselves they could chalk it up to someone putting more work into it, when the game offers a path to it they can feel like cash was the deciding factor and so on. Perception is kind of a big deal and it has a direct influence of people wanting to play or not, recommending a game or not and generally their opinion.

Not saying this *is* pay to win nor saying it isn't... just presenting how it could be interpreted as a "win"


 

 

Chill, I can only type so much so fast I haven't actually addressed your post in it's entirety yet because I wanted to go over it carefully; I was just making a quick point. I literally read the first point in your post and put it together to address the first thing I saw when I loaded this thread to see what happened on my way home.

No, P2W isn't an opinion, it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years for a toxic, anti-consumer business model.

Immediate power = P2W. i.e.: "Oh, well I just spent 15$ dollars to rent level 60 armor despite me being only level 1, for 7 days. I don't have to spend ingame money for gear or anything!"

Getting power substantially more easily without putting in the same kind of effort (a statue of limitation has long been in place due to subscriptions becoming an optional service) = P2W

An all-time, non-situational amount of power disproportionate to your level/hours played due to money expenditure = P2W

 

P2W does not mean what you think it means. It isn't a catch all term, albeit it does encompass a broad net of issues in the MMO genre. The issue is with the mass majority of people using P2W in demagoguery and game-shaming. To this day, I will defend the ghillie suit and the value pack to the death because while they cross a line, they do so in such an insubstantial fashion that they can remain optional.

If it is entirely based on a large sample size across multiple years why can nobody point to a firm definition of it outside of relaying their own individual interpretation?

Immediate power / indirect power / long term power = p2w to you but they are hardly concrete arguments.

Even in what I quoted you in as a demonstration you had one definition that contradicted yours:

Pay to Win: "An advantage that can only be obtained with Real Life Money." (so this would cross pets, inventory, weight, value packs, anything on the loyalty etc etc as "not p2w" but they *would* fall under your definition of p2w)

and not in where I quoted you: "The only definition of P2W is if you pay 2 win. As in stuff you buy with real cash that will literary win you the game which is impossible in MMO worlds"

Everyone seems to think they know the one true definition of p2w but that is a term deeply steeped in personal bias. Everyone I met that asserts a hard meaning to "p2w" all insists they have the right one.

I do agree with you, however, that the deeper problem is people using it to appeal to people's emotions to shame a game. You don't actually know what I think p2w really means, because I am framing the discussion in such a way as to talk about our use of the term and not trying to define the term.

Edited by bakimono

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It was over something that could be interpreted as abusive even if that's not really what I was trying to say.I would give you better details but I'd rather not risk a second warning point because I talked about it, lets just say I was getting at not being something :P (moral of the story, don't even use expletives even indirectly if someone could interpret that being aimed at someone.)

 

I understand. Like I said there is some merit to what you are getting at in terms of framing a general spirit about p2w but it falls a bit short of being concrete because of careful wording. This video was the first place I looked to trying to find a "gotcha" only to catch another carefully worded save.

 

 

 Notice 3 different people all p2w is not an opinion and there is only one definition.

And they all have different definitions.

Interesting.

And Valtzu I threw you in there as to say "Maybe we do." ;)

If everyone didn't come to the final conclusion that P2W is unfair even if it's unfair to them why complain about P2W anyway if it's not unfair and I never said MY definition I said FINAL definition meaning what everyone is feeling when they say P2W and if they aren't feeling unfairly treated when they complain about it then idk why they are complaining I truely don't.

the other guys are wrong.

wheather you see it or not I agreed with you. By what you said that he quoted don't you feel it's unfair that some items can be obtained by only having real money.

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