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The problem with the TERM "p2w"

85 posts in this topic

Posted

Well, I must admit OP is just right. I laugh at that whole STOP P2W because i don't think it is P2W in any sense. We should discuss the change, name it and why we think it is dangerous to the game. Saying just that someone will have something quicker because of money is no argument.

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Posted (edited)

Ok i dont like doing this but i will. So the guy tells you: You are doing something wrong. What is your response to that ? Saying that he insulted you with cheating the rules ?!?!?!?

I play handball and my coach allways tells us we are doing something wrong. So most of the kids in team hate that? Do you know why or do i have to point that out aswell ?

Imho he didnt insult you. He just said you are doing something wrong. You found it insulting because it did hurt you. He might  be right or maybe wrong. But your whole answer is that you openly insult people and thats fine ?!?!? and not a finest insult that you used....toolbags built our world :) 

Ok, I'll bite and talk about this since you seem pretty well intentioned.

Me and Plunge have had numerous conversations in the past and she(?) was using a statement to denigrate me. It's not that it hurt or offended me, I actually quite expected it and laughed when it inevitably showed up.

In the context of the conversation neither of us had "done anything wrong" at the time and she brought it up unprompted because she(?) wanted to bolster her argument by "taking me down a peg" in the conversation to gain an advantage and I called her(?) on it.

We already have been fairly hostile towards eachother for some time, if you want to know why feel free to dig, but both of us have a pretty voluminous posting history so good luck ;)

Basically you're joining in on a verbal quarrel that has been going on for months, not seeing what actually led to that moment (which is also exactly why she linked it out of context, in a manner that really contributed nothing to the post)

P.S. toolbag when used at a person is a derogatory term to say that someone is allowing themselves to be indirectly used to someone else's benefit or agenda, usually in such a manner that they present themselves as superior to others while inadvertently making themselves come off as disingenuous and unpleasant. (at least, that's a nice way of putting it and what I was trying to convey)


 

If everyone didn't come to the final conclusion that P2W is unfair even if it's unfair to them why complain about P2W anyway if it's not unfair and I never said MY definition I said FINAL definition meaning what everyone is feeling when they say P2W and if they aren't feeling unfairly treated when they complain about it then idk why they are complaining I truely don't.

Not everyone defines it as unfair and unfair is pretty opinion based in of itself.

Not everyone is opposed to perceived p2w because it's "unfair" some don't like it because they don't want the extra bills because they will be tempted to spend more and so on and so on... I have bigger concerns about value (is it worth the price? does it diminish the value of the game to me?) than I care about if things are fair or not.

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

wheather you see it or not I agreed with you. By what you said that he quoted don't you feel it's unfair that some items can be obtained by only having real money.

 

then why are you against this change; a move to actually make the game less P2W by providing a means for those that don't wish to spend RL money to get that 30% exp advantage? 

Ironically the players have a way to curb monopolists that will seek to sell CS gear for power, it will take coordination but it is doable. Solution: stop listing shards, and concentrated stones on AH, list more low return consumables at max price such as Wagons, High Valued Mats, Food and Potions.

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Posted

 

 Anyways thats why i said i dont like doing it :) 

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Posted

 

then why are you against this change; a move to actually make the game less P2W by providing a means for those that don't wish to spend RL money to get that 30% exp advantage? 

Ironically the players have a way to curb monopolists that will seek to sell CS gear for power, it will take coordination but it is doable. Solution: stop listing shards, and concentrated stones on AH, list more low return consumables at max price such as Wagons, High Valued Mats, Food and Potions.

There is no 30% exp advantage it's only 10% which isn't very big at all. When ninjas came out we leveled one together and he had a cash shop outfit and I didn't and by the time we eached level 35 we were the same level with him being at 50% and me being at around 20% when we stopped leveling together. So that 10% isn't pay to win at all. And I'm against it in the fact that there are many high level characters who have money to invest into this so they also have the same chance as those who are lower level to get alot of silver for more attempts at enchanting. This change will only effect those who cannot shovel out the money for these benefits were the game will become unfair because the strong can easily get stronger rather then everyone having the benefit of becomeing stronger. Granted it is fair that more people can now be able to experience the cash shop yes but people are more concerned about playing the game then playing dressup. But those who deem these things on the market place as unfair are extremely competitive and are looking for an excuse to blame why they lost. When I purchased my characters outfit I looked and was like well waist up is cool kindof like a demon hunter but waist down spells slut like you have to kill the raid boss at 10 but your pimp needs to you work a early shift at 10:30 and I purchased the outfit because it looked cool and reminds me of the outfits from bloodborn in a way. These were my concerns when buying my characters cash shop outfit not the fact that oh man these benefits are fu/ck/ing amazing. But I'm not against nore and I with this change for many reasons one of which is I'm with because I can get other outfits for free if I so choose and against because if the prices are too high for these outfits then that means a bigger unfair advantage to those who have money for this option. I have changed my Icon back because I've decided to wait to see how much these items are worth in silver to determine if it's truely unfair or how much of a limit they have. I've done the math and in KR the dyes are 30mill at most but for us they are about 5mill at most which is a 84-85% decrease so if they follow the same path i predict teh outfit should range between 15mill to 30mill anything under 50mill at most with a cap of how much you can sell wouldn't be to much of advantage because they would still have to fight RNG for better gear.

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Posted

the term "p2w" is extremely problematic because it's basically opinion.

This, shouldn't even say more.

And the other problem is that the 2 sides ( opinions ) don't, or refuse to understand the otherside.

Ego at it's finest

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Posted

There is no 30% exp advantage it's only 10% which isn't very big at all. When ninjas came out we leveled one together and he had a cash shop outfit and I didn't and by the time we eached level 35 we were the same level with him being at 50% and me being at around 20% when we stopped leveling together. So that 10% isn't pay to win at all. And I'm against it in the fact that there are many high level characters who have money to invest into this so they also have the same chance as those who are lower level to get alot of silver for more attempts at enchanting. This change will only effect those who cannot shovel out the money for these benefits were the game will become unfair because the strong can easily get stronger rather then everyone having the benefit of becomeing stronger. Granted it is fair that more people can now be able to experience the cash shop yes but people are more concerned about playing the game then playing dressup. But those who deem these things on the market place as unfair are extremely competitive and are looking for an excuse to blame why they lost. When I purchased my characters outfit I looked and was like well waist up is cool kindof like a demon hunter but waist down spells slut like you have to kill the raid boss at 10 but your pimp needs to you work a early shift at 10:30 and I purchased the outfit because it looked cool and reminds me of the outfits from bloodborn in a way. These were my concerns when buying my characters cash shop outfit not the fact that oh man these benefits are fu/ck/ing amazing. But I'm not against nore and I with this change for many reasons one of which is I'm with because I can get other outfits for free if I so choose and against because if the prices are too high for these outfits then that means a bigger unfair advantage to those who have money for this option. I have changed my Icon back because I've decided to wait to see how much these items are worth in silver to determine if it's truely unfair or how much of a limit they have. I've done the math and in KR the dyes are 30mill at most but for us they are about 5mill at most which is a 84-85% decrease so if they follow the same path i predict teh outfit should range between 15mill to 30mill anything under 50mill at most with a cap of how much you can sell wouldn't be to much of advantage because they would still have to fight RNG for better gear.

Did i hit a nerve? Someone is bound to run into the text wall you just built.

A paid advantage is, just because 10% doesn't mean anything to you...its still 10% you were not getting unless you forked over the cash. As to your other point "Dress up" as you call it is actually one of the many types of customization that is expected in any basic MMORPG as it reflects a characters progress in more ways than one.

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Posted (edited)

This, shouldn't even say more.

And the other problem is that the 2 sides ( opinions ) don't, or refuse to understand the otherside.

Ego at it's finest

In some games it is a fact. in others it is a factor or a opinion, answering the question how much p2w said game is. 

edit: there is a point where paying for convinience is so convinient it actually lets you "win" in some manner.

Edited by Valtzu

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Posted

This is just ignorance, as in lack of knowledge. P2W/Pay to win is a VERY clear cut defined term, and it began years and years ago with games that were adding cash stores with god tier weapons/armors purchasable with real money. The very words 'pay to win' shows the clarity of it. Using this term so widely has broken its meaning into a rally cry for self entitled children. P2W games gave no option but to buy these weapons and armors or be unable to compete in the slightest in any sort of PvP and also made PvE extremely difficult. Learn your gaming history from someone that lived it, or learn to google before you post.

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Posted

Pay2Win is more like a spectrum than anything else. A game can be slightly P2W by giving paying players a slight advantage over others, or very P2W with players being able to acquire the best items in game without actually playing the game.

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Posted (edited)

 Learn your gaming history from someone that lived it, or learn to google before you post.

firstly, I've been playing mmo's for a solid 20 years now.

Secondly, go ahead and Google it. If it were that simple any meat head could just link a Googled article.

Cute argument though, if you'd call that an argument.

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

Pay2Win is more like a spectrum than anything else. A game can be slightly P2W by giving paying players a slight advantage over others, or very P2W with players being able to acquire the best items in game without actually playing the game.

No, very P2W is when you get God-Mode Items that you wont get ingame and People not paying will never ever get them no matter how long they grind.

If anything, BDO is "Pay 2 convenience", since you CANT get better Items as someone not paying.

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Posted (edited)

You can call it p2w or pink unicorn. The "words" or the definitions are not the problem. The problem is the fact that Kakao want  money 3 times in same content. We Buy the game, we pay subscription (value pack) and we have to spend 150 euro/WEEK to get same chances than 0day played time category fat guys. Or we have to "work" in game 336 hours/week to get same income than "RM users".

 

And ON-topic:  p2w definitions are irrelevants. All real money - in game currency converter options are same destructive game killer "elements".  This is less problem if we play f2p game and we have clear information about trash business modell. If the company offer b2p all RM-silver convert option is a lies and scam. Or what is the logic? Daumkakao will not implement p2w MAYBE and I will not ask refund or charge back after months MAYBE? OK.  Send some some dozens of RM item and MAYBE iI will pay!  :D

(or: Daum will not implement p2w i nlaunch phase. I will not get refund or chargeback in launch phase. This is fair. )

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

The saying goes that opinions are like behinds, everyone has one. Fair enough, and actually opinions are to be respected. Mind you, opinions themselves, not what they present.

As to the particular, invented term "Pay-To-Win", sure there can be one million opinions of what exactly it could mean. Except it had been always pretty clear, and from the beginning when people actually started to use it, with solid examples. Since then we have gone a long way, and thus... more opinions.

A few people have even dared to point to the beginnings and the correct direction here, but as expected, have been silenced or even insulted by... opinions. So, shall we try once more perhaps?

I get the impression, several players here have no knowledge or experience of real "P2W" situations, not saying they should, but on the other hand having an opinion on something you don't know... ah well.

"P2W": You pay hard cash to simply BUY an immediate and clear advantage, there and then, no ifs and maybe's and "eventually", there and then, period. You BUY one or more pieces of fully upgraded top tier gear, or why not special and even more uber gear superior to anything found in-game. Cough up cash, buy it, there and then. The next second you have better stats than anyone else, save those who did the same -> an immediate advantage, assuming gear is the single most important factor in a particular game. Clear enough?

"P2W": You pay hard cash to buy upgrades that would be otherwise NOT possible, or realistically possible (if you actually had say a 0.01% chance of success). In effect, you end up with fully upgraded gear while anyone else would never ever have it (or, OK, same chances as giving it a spin and winning the lottery). Except for those who PAY. Understood?

Now, the way to "P2W" might involve RNG and a lot of "casino rolls", meaning you actually cough up a lot more, this has been a popular practice with many developers / publishers / games, instead of straight up charging you X amount for Y item. If anything, playing the casino usually costs more. Yet people will oblige and do it.

Everything else, people might like to call "P2W", and they are welcome, but I am afraid it isn't. Call it convenience, call it saving time, call it "I am raging and fuming and having a fit, because you dirty casual caught up with me now!", but meh. One way or the other... can ALL players have the SAME gear? If the game allows it for everyone, you have no excuse, only "hurt feelings". You can also preach all you like about "equality" and who is entitled to what. And it doesn't matter, either you grind 10000 hours and also beat RNGesus, either you "pay your way to it" (assuming it is even possible), or you mix it, EVERY player can have the same in the end? Yes or no?

The moment BDO allows ways to straight up buy the best gear AND ways to fully upgrade it (currently to PEN), then yeah, we have a "P2W" situation. Not ifs and maybes and "eventually you can beat the RNG". Straight up, no crap. I buy Bhegs, I PEN Bhegs, Got it? Good. Until then, do write one more million posts in da Forum, by all means.

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Posted

i would make it all shorter so everybody can understand what its meant behind P2W. Until now you couldnt buy silver with real money so it was not P2W. Now is coming new change so you can buy silver with money so its P2W. But it still doesnt mean you gonna win cause you are just a person what spend his money in pixels but it doesnt mean you have high lvl and skill so you just get rekt anyway and no win for you . More you spend more win for daum and less win for you :D

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Posted

Lol this forum's gotten worse. Full of wierdos; always writing a novel for their points to get across 

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Posted

No, very P2W is when you get God-Mode Items that you wont get ingame and People not paying will never ever get them no matter how long they grind.

If anything, BDO is "Pay 2 convenience", since you CANT get better Items as someone not paying.

A definition that doesn't fit a single game is worthless.

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Posted (edited)

A definition that doesn't fit a single game is worthless.

What?

There are tons of MMO where you can $$ God-Mode Items that are impossible to get ingame, like if BDO would sell +30 Kzarka and Boss Gear or +2000hp Potions or +100 AK Potions.

Did you just joined the Internet???

Edited by Caduryn

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Posted (edited)

For me a p2w is a game feature that allow to buy ingame currency for real cash which leads to:

- better or even similar account progression when compared with casual player that decide to play the game instead of paying for game currency

- ingame currency abnormal redistribution (the richest person is not a harcore player but a walletknight) based not on time played but creditcard abusing (that was allowet by game provider)

- the feeling of playtime importance devaluation - "I cant be good even if i play more" which is simply NOT FAIR and leads to playerbase exodus

 

The last one is strictly conneted with game longevity becase when walletknights lose ppl they can humiliate, they also quit.

 

CONCLUSION: Cash shop sellability for silver probably cant be stopped BUT IF a good real money/silver exchange rate is implemented IT WONT BE HARMFULL for Black Desert longevity.

 

I suggest: 30$ items max price CANT be higher than 10-15 mil silver (with max 5 items per week restriction). It must be a HARD cap implemented by developer - on KR serv they let it rise (in time) to 100mil....

Edited by Kelai

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Posted (edited)


"p2w" is not a strictly defined term and as such loses all meaning when trying to convince anyone who doesn't agree with you that something is or isn't p2w.
 

The only reason it varies is because people who need to be thrown down staircases have access to a keyboard and an internet connection.

P2W is self explanatory. If you don't understand it, eat a book or something.

Preferably hard cover.

With lead based ink.

I literally cannot fathom where the confusion lies.

Edited by Skyfrog

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Posted

What?

There are tons of MMO where you can $$ God-Mode Items that are impossible to get ingame, like if BDO would sell +30 Kzarka and Boss Gear or +2000hp Potions or +100 AK Potions.

Did you just joined the Internet???

I'm sure you could name few examples then. Even the crappiest MMOs I've tried allowed you to sell the same items to other players for in-game money.

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Posted (edited)

I'm sure you could name few examples then. Even the crappiest MMOs I've tried allowed you to sell the same items to other players for in-game money.

Allods Online

  1. Runes,you have 6 slots for them, maxing out 1 slot is around 1700 USD, for a total of 10200 USD.

  2. Monthly mystery chests with clearly more OP items each time: mounts, battle mounts, enchants, character stat points etc. with very low chances of drooping desired item. If you want to stay ahead of power curve you should expect to spend around 100 USD per month for this.

  3. Max blessing level: you can get to level 4 by playing the game and then you can unlock level 5 witch will buff your damage significantly. Materials for completing this are dropped from special mystery boxes and depending on your luck its expected to set your wallet behind by 60 to 100 USD.

 

Jade Dynasty.

 +9 and +10 sigils were introduced in the cash shop after few years. Those sigils were considered most expensive items in the game and they also make your gear ultra OP.       Those sigils were like 50 bucks I think and ultra donaters just completely broke the pvp with insanely strong gear.

 

Can't remember the game, but I recall a random asian grinder that sold instant HP potions (with no cooldown) in the shop. While the non-shop version took about 30 seconds to heal maybe 1/4 of your HP. There were no other healing options in the game. Pvp was rather pointless.

 

Perfect World

Has scrolls that insa-filled your hp or mana, that cost real money. having to do 1mil+ damage to kill someone with 3 k health fml.

 

Metin2 

Add stats to your gear and reroll them. Cashshop only, and 100% mandatory for anything you want to do.

To get decent stats on gear it's usually a minimum of 50€+ and for weapons... dice roll, you're lucky with 200€, more likely to be 1000€+ (If you want perfect stats and not just decent ones, well.. good luck, you'll need that and and prob your whole bank account aswell)

I know people who have spent close to 100k into that game, and they weren't even the best... That's the most p2w I've ever seen in a game.

 

Eden eternal

"prime" costume items would provide stat bonuses even though they were held in cosmetic slots. 10% crit rate & magic crit in the back item slot, % health on several face items, % atk on headgear, ect, all in LARGE amounts. when that no longer proved to be profitable because everyone had primes, they introduced legendary items at twice the stat bonus and double the cost, KEEP IN MIND, these were costume items! obtainable only in the cash shop after spending about 300$ + real money! and pvp was ruined because of it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Caduryn
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Posted

 

I literally cannot fathom where the confusion lies.

I understand it just fine.

Because different people have different opinions.

Notice how many people are claiming the one obvious definition of p2w and they're ranging from slightly different to significantly different.

And I love how I can always count on you for a seemingly nonsensical reply that somehow makes sense.

Never change Skyfrog :)

 

Can't remember the game, but I recall a random asian grinder that sold instant HP potions (with no cooldown) in the shop. While the non-shop version took about 30 seconds to heal maybe 1/4 of your HP. There were no other healing options in the game. Pvp was rather pointless.

 

There's actually a bunch of games like that.

4Story / GoA is extremely p2w also.

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Posted

I understand it just fine.
Because different people have different opinions.

Notice how many people are claiming the one obvious definition of p2w and they're ranging from slightly different to significantly different.

And I love how I can always count on you for a seemingly nonsensical reply that somehow makes sense.

Never change Skyfrog :)

There's actually a bunch of games like that.
4Story / GoA is extremely p2w also.

I know you understand it.

I was more speaking in general.

 

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Posted

I know you understand it.

I was more speaking in general.

 

I know, just your "eat a book" was a nice thing to sip my pre-work coffee too and I had to show some props.

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