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76 posts in this topic

Posted

So this is my one singular attempt at educating people here. I will not be making replies to trolls and will not be promoting ignorance in any way.

@PM_Jouska
@CM_Aethon

First we begin with a minor history lesson. I work in construction and I am pretty tired right now so some things may not be said with the perfect clarity that I wish of it but I am sure that you will be able to at the very least understand the point. I will use no fancy formatting or highlights, this is a simple address to anyone with a mind of their own. Again trolls and little children can remove themselves from this thread as I have not the time for any of it. My oldest will be going to MIT so I have done my job in parenting, I do not wish to do your parents job as well.

Source: I have been playing online games now for over two decades, thats from the early 90s. I began early on with games such as UO and Quake1 and have played just about everything produced in NA/JP/CN/KR since then, much of it a huge waste of time but thats what games are for us. Jobs for the creators, entertainment for us and this needs to be clearly understood. I have been playing NA BDO for just over one month (started way late), I have an account net worth of >1.2billion silver and 400gscore. I am on Orwen/NA, have been having a blast with BDO and will continue to do so for so long as its servers stay alive.

Pay to Win, or P2W. This term is being used in every circle of gaming these days and I literally just saw a post of someone stating that it is not a defined term and out of countless posts on that thread nobody stated the truth behind this. P2W is a very clear cut defined term that began many years ago. The very words 'pay to win' are as clear as it can be. The fact that people still say there is no line there is what has driven me to this point. Generally speaking I hold my peace and let what will be, be. As it is, and I have said, I am making one attempt here and one only. I only hope that some will read this and come away with knowledge and help to make a louder voice from truth than the knee jerk reaction of the current loudest general audience in gaming; the self entitled kid.

Pay to win, as I said is a term that began many years ago. You may open your google/bing/choice browser and search for yourselves and what you will find then is that this term was applied to games during the early years of 'cash shops' that promoted the sale of god tier weapons and armor for real world money. These items were so vastly superior, in most cases even compared to the 'end game' gear attainable in game that if you wished to PvP, or even PvE to a large extent, you had no choice but to buy these items. Its as simple as that.

Cash shops in general, as well as free to play games were a byproduct of this as it was seen that some things were 'ok' to sell for real money and some were not. This was influenced by peoples perception and the way they reacted to it. Game developers saw a trend beginning and many would-be entertainment makers jumped on board as the money made from these 'micro transactions' or 'cash shops' was more than they would make from the game sales themselves. Keep in mind most games used to be bought in the form of CDs or even waay back the good ol cartridge. This is how we got 'free to play' games in general and the resulting garbage from game developers ever since. People liked the idea of getting games for free, and paying only for what they wanted.

I know that every real gamer out there can relate to this; spending countless hours on youtube and browser searches for the next 'great' game. Looking endlessly forward to something worth playing. Our expectations have risen to a crescendo over the years as have the 'self entitled' audience. People now -expect- to receive these games for free, and to play them for free indefinitely. This is the very vicious cycle we have created as a gaming community that allows garbage to flood the internet, games and clones of games and clones of those clones that are all indefinitely trash. Little effort into making the game, little into promoting it and even less into maintaining it. It is this mentality that sponsored and allowed to flourish the lack of vision and effort in game developers. This problem has been further enhanced with the ever growing crowd of underaged or simply immature gamers. IE; Self entitlement audience.

Games used to be for kids. That is not so much the case anymore. The gaming community is comprised now of more 'older generation' gamers than ever before, and that is a direct result of when gaming actually began. It is unfortunate that the loudest and most heard of the gaming community is the immature, irresponsible kids and trolls yet I feel that it is far past time for those of us that are able to comprehend the consequences of our actions to be heard. It is a necessity, a responsibility that we must step up to or I fear that gaming in general, as a whole will turn from bad to non existent in value and worth.

Here are the facts; we love games. We love to play games and we all but demand these games be entertainment that is up to our standards. We ensure that this can never happen by allowing the games we love to be driven to extinction or worse by self entitled kids and people with absolutely no understanding of the value of our time, money or jobs. Most of the people I have seen spearheading these cries of p2w have obviously never had any mouth to feed but their grubby own. They never had to work for a living, and anyone that believes youtube is a job has even less foundation in reality than the games we play. Your homes wont be built, your cars wont run and the roads wont be repaired by youtube. If you want entertainment, if you want GOOD games that are enjoyable and fun then it is high time to start acting in a way that promotes this in the developers. We are products of our actions as much as the games are a direct result of our voice as gamers. We act, they react. Not -we speak they do-. If you want quality games, be prepared to pay for them. If you want free to play the sad truth is that you aren't wanted by game developers, needed for the promotion of quality standards or in my opinion even welcome in any game that I enjoy. Developers wont say this outright but you are a useless waste of server space save only for adding a head count to their number, which by mockery of our desires is another demand we have on the developers; it has to be popular/high population.

We will pay $60usd for a PS4 game and spend maybe, stretching it maybe 100 hours on something like final fantasy etc. and thats a huge value. Yet we spend $40 on BDO and spend thousands of hours. What kind of drugs are people on these days to be so ludicrous as to complain over the cash shop which YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND A DIME ON yet get 10x or far more entertainment hours out of a game you enjoy? And barring all this, people still brag about WoW yet you must purchase the game, pay a subscription to even log in every month AND buy each and every expansion? AND they have a cash shop too. Even sells T-Shirts.

For anyone high enough to imagine they should be given an online game in its future entirety from one small initial purchase, grow up. The sooner the better because when real life smacks you in the mouth you may never recover. BDO has given us every expansion for free. They now even give daily log in rewards and they compensate your sorry worthless hides every time they get DDOS or have -omg- extended maintenance. Self entitled, spoiled and useless the lot of you. Honestly you should be ashamed in more ways than one. Worse to those that promote this type of ignorance.

Oh yeah, 30 60 or 90 days worth of value pack for everyone that bought the game in its various packs as more compensation available to your account via the website, for free.

Other games which I will not even bother mentioning are still praised, have higher player bases (one even more so than WoW) and allows buying and selling of its subscription on the market as well. Games that require a subscription to even log in. Perception is flawed here. Google some knowledge if you really do not know.

The very fact that BDO allows you to log in every day, use their bandwidth and tax their servers (which they just upgraded too) without requiring a subscription is not enough for the self entitled. They also demand lower prices for outfits that they either A cannot afford/justify or B cannot talk their parents into affording. B needs to GTFO. I look forward to the day that BDO allows the sales of cash shop items on the player driven market because not only is it absolutely not pay to win (which I will delve into further momentarily) but it will also allow people of the A category above to now purchase these luxury items from within the game. Some could even say this combats pay to win as it allows equal access now to every aspect of the game. Many will see this come to pass and realize that now the billions of silver they have saved up can now be spent on value packs and outfits for their alts without spending even more real money to continue to keep BDO in development and pay its creators to continue this game because others that have the money to spare will do it for them.

Delving on in as promised; There are many people in BDO with billions of silver with no decrease in sight, gaining passively every day more silver with nothing to spend it on. You argue that selling cash shop items on the market is 'P2W', the rally cry of ignorance is all I hear. People that have played this game since day 1 and work its mechanics properly will never be broke and never see a want for silver. This truth is marked by several distinct points which can be seen in KR even now, and they have had this 'p2w' model since the start.

One thing to understand is silver doesn't win you anything. Most people even in KR do not have PEN gear, VERY few do. Much less will you even find TET/PEN boss gear on the market anytime in the foreseeable future unless someone extremely high tier quits or their account is hacked. To assume the disposable income crowd will buy all their boss gear and be gods of BDO is asinine at worse and woefully ignorant at best. And beyond that, what people spend irl vs what they can sell the purchased cash item for on the market will not make up for having to grind contribution points, knowledge for energy and most importantly levels. Very few level 60s and even fewer +60 in KR who have had this game much longer than us and I mean come on, they're Korean! The disparity between a level 55 and a level 60 in combat points alone is greater than the perceived differences most of you seem to believe exists in much of the gear. I am not going to expand more on this one point as there are far too many facets to thoroughly cover but I will say that of equal skill level players and passive 'hidden' stats gained from each character level earned you simply do not 'buy' your way to victory in BDO. Not going to happen and I hope many try so the developers get paid and continue releasing these wonderfully Free expansions.

BDO is pay to be lazy. Pay to advance -up to a point- quicker. Pay for convenience even but it is in absolutely no way pay to win. Silver in BDO in any amount is never going to win your fights, nor even guarantee you upgrade your gear cause RNG is king, and even that does not bother me as I enjoy the game as it is. You may beat the dog out of someone who started the same time as you, has equal skill level but progressed slower in some regards because you 'bought some silver' but you will likely still never catch up to the top tier players and even if you do it will still require a large amount of skill to win your battles against those that know how to play.

Investing large amounts of contribution and energy in the right places will net you far more silver far quicker than anything you would like to do in the cash shop, and to the Nth degree if they put a cap on the number of items you can sell in any given time. Simply playing the game will advance you in every regard far quicker than attempting to use real world money versus those that put in their hours correctly.

We as gamers have a responsibility placed on us by the sheer fact that our words have weight concerning a games development. Companies are obviously afraid of the pay to win title and made even worse by social media such as youtube. People that will drive a game straight to its death and lulz whilst moving on to the next because they simply do not care and feel no reason to be invested. The self entitled need to have their teeth knocked out in more ways than one. If my kids ever acted half as spoiled rotten as many of the 25 and under gamers out there they would all be in dentures. Well not quite but they would certainly have their computers removed from their rooms and not be getting their own cars etc. We must stop rewarding this behavior, and none too soon before things become fatally worse. I am not speaking of BDO exclusively.

There used to be a saying, you get what you pay for. This is still true. If you want Nike or Jordans it will cost more than well I don't know many brands of shoe I wear Wolverine etc. but you can get the idea looking at a fully restored GTO or Chevelle vs a Kia.

I am not saying I completely agree with everything BDO has done or its prices in the cash shop but I can say with confidence it was caused by the players not the makers of the game. They will sell what we are willing to buy and are not at fault here. The biggest problem here is that BDO in my personal opinion is the best MMO to be released in more years than I can count. Many games out there have done well and avoided the pay to win title, but look at those games vs BDO, currently I see a lot of Kia's and one Chevelle. This game is beautiful and is loaded with content and everyone that has avoided looking for these perceived 'p2w' signs have thousands of hours logged and loads of fun. Even those that are shouting P2W have similar or greater hours. The fallacy of the logic here is beyond astounding.

I do not wish to see this game ruined by self entitled people causing developers to make rash decisions as has happened so often recently.

As I said in the beginning this is my one singular attempt at making a rational plea to the gaming community concerned with BDO and the future of Online, feature rich Interactive games. We need to hastily squelch the battle cry of the self entitled audience or suffer the consequences for years to come as it has been for the most recent years with potentially far worse on the way. Knowledge is power, and ignorance is not bliss. It will be my greatest hope that game developers/publishers find their way to this page and know that not everyone is so blind. I sincerely applaud anyone that wishes to take this torch and attempt to make a difference in the right direction. There is even a well known youtuber calling for a boycott of BDO, and he doesn't even play it anymore. I have not the patience nor self restraint for these types of people that want everything for nothing, as the only thing they truly deserve comes in steel toe.

 

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Posted

Damn. That's a wall of text before anyone realize what you're trying to say. Lol.

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Posted

One word: Competition

 

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Posted

need a new job imho.

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Posted (edited)

This is all fun and good but bad business ethics in my mind is never excusable by the statement"they need the money."

They stated their numbers were doing well and had good income to last the end of the year. there are plenty of ways to make a buck that have been provided by community feedback that has been completely ignored over the past 6 months and if you think the only way for them to make the money is to break the trust of their players, you are short-sighted. I advise you to look up the post "the value of trust" made earlier.

Also, I would argue self entitlement is more common in the desire to outspend others to gain an advantage over them. Your desire to have your money give you an advantage over those without the money is nothing short of selfish and i find it insulting that you tell others to "grow up" when they support this game with their investments so the company doesn't NEED to make decisions like this.

I have made every purchase under the pretense that the developers were fighting for us, the people, to not go down this road. I wanted this to be true so I supported them, as did many many others. I would not have done this if they hadn't told the community they would be on their side. Perhaps this was the idea, to garner trust for them to make money? Maybe. But if that's true then can you really defend this as moral? Despite how you feel about people "not wanting to pay to support the developers?"

Edited by Avocados
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Posted

Damn man for a construction worker you can type!

 

You are right tho

 

as well if we go free to play every asshat online will crash in the bring down the servers 

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Posted

-snip-

What the hell kinda comment is this lol? Shut up.

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Posted (edited)

Alot of Text, very well written and to 100% true, but i will quote the important thing. 

Pay to Win, or P2W. This term is being used in every circle of gaming these days and I literally just saw a post of someone stating that it is not a defined term and out of countless posts on that thread nobody stated the truth behind this. P2W is a very clear cut defined term that began many years ago. The very words 'pay to win' are as clear as it can be. The fact that people still say there is no line there is what has driven me to this point. Generally speaking I hold my peace and let what will be, be. As it is, and I have said, I am making one attempt here and one only. I only hope that some will read this and come away with knowledge and help to make a louder voice from truth than the knee jerk reaction of the current loudest general audience in gaming; the self entitled kid.

Pay to win, as I said is a term that began many years ago. You may open your google/bing/choice browser and search for yourselves and what you will find then is that this term was applied to games during the early years of 'cash shops' that promoted the sale of god tier weapons and armor for real world money. These items were so vastly superior, in most cases even compared to the 'end game' gear attainable in game that if you wished to PvP, or even PvE to a large extent, you had no choice but to buy these items. Its as simple as that.

BDO is pay to be lazy. Pay to advance -up to a point- quicker. Pay for convenience even but it is in absolutely no way pay to win. Silver in BDO in any amount is never going to win your fights, nor even guarantee you upgrade your gear cause RNG is king, and even that does not bother me as I enjoy the game as it is. You may beat the dog out of someone who started the same time as you, has equal skill level but progressed slower in some regards because you 'bought some silver' but you will likely still never catch up to the top tier players and even if you do it will still require a large amount of skill to win your battles against those that know how to play.

 

Edited by Caduryn
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Posted

The thing is, work ingame for ingame achievements. As ez as that. If you cant, you cant. To progress in a GAME, play it. Not use your out of the game currency. It defames everything a game stands for. When you can progress in a game from outside of it something is seriously wrong. 

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Posted

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

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Posted (edited)

What the hell kinda comment is this lol? Shut up.

what? I speak the truth. it isn't p2w for now..

Edited by Kramer

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Posted

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

Like its ABSOLUTLY IMPOSSIBLE for a MMO to get new Players?

I mean....seriously.....

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Posted

I can't read all that, sorry I just can't. Unless it's on a power point with dancing kitty gifs thrown in there, I ain't reading that.

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Posted (edited)

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

Except this isn't a nonsense thread made with the intentions of spreading nonsense. I understand that a lot of people have been making fresh accounts to just basically spam polls, allegedly, and spam "No P2W" threads, but at the same time the context of the OPs post isn't nonsense which is why you should probably read before you assume anything.

So don't be rude and post this crap, read the damn post and then come back and post something. Don't be that guy "Oh if I don't know who you are..." that is just...please no, we don't need that. No.

Edited by Jefferson

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Posted (edited)

Except this isn't a nonsense thread made with the intentions of spreading nonsense. I understand that a lot of people have been making fresh accounts to just basically spam polls, allegedly, and spam "No P2W" threads, but at the same time the context of the OPs post isn't nonsense which is why you should probably read before you assume anything.

So don't be rude and post this crap, read the damn post and then come back and post something. Don't be that guy "Oh if I don't know who you are..." that is just...please no, we don't need that. No.

You sound like a nice guy. Here, I have him blocked, but I'll do it for you:

 

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

Who gives a shit?

Edited by Katsuragi

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Posted

This post is the long winded version of what ive been telling people. What it boils down to is Pay to Win is when you can only obtain an item by buying it with real money that is godly compared to anything you can find in game. The people who spend money will not get a massive advantage its just a way to have it done faster to get to an average gear level which ill typically be around Tri everything for most people. There is a limited amount of stuff on the market place that whales will be able to buy simply because boss armor is still rare enough that people dont sell it regularly and high level gear is rare to since people arent selling it unless they are quitting the game in general. 

Self entitlement is ruining gaming because everyone wants everything for free. Daum/Kakao has been 100% upfront about everything. The pre launch dev blog even said if they added the cash shop to marketplace transactions then they would but with limitations. They only said the game would LAUNCH without pay to win aspects. Things change with time which is why they said that things might change down the road. Daum has been looking out for us every step of the way to make it not as pay to win as people assume the game is. 

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Posted (edited)

I went off on someone about this thing. He was trying to tell me that the minute silver you might save by having extra weight and pets adds to up a clear advantage and is "P2W". I couldn't believe it. It's actually come down to people expecting companies to make their revenue solely off cosmetics because they can't handle that someone gets their gear even just an HOUR ahead of them.

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

What the hell? Take your neckbeard slap fight to messages.

Edited by brasteir
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Posted

An interesting read. Sadly, you shoot yourself in the foot by 1. Suggesting anybody who didn't agree with you are trolls or little children, and 2. By including the term Entitlement in the title.... And also by repeatedly insulting the community.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but you're not going to get anywhere talking down to people. You have no time for trolls which I totally understand. But not many have time for self important self appointed "educators" who think themselves above everyone else in the world.

That said, this had the potential to be a good thread... But not many people are gonna make it all the way through that astonishingly long winded lesson.

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Posted

An interesting read. Sadly, you shoot yourself in the foot by 1. Suggesting anybody who didn't agree with you are trolls or little children, and 2. By including the term Entitlement in the title.... And also by repeatedly insulting the community.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but you're not going to get anywhere talking down to people. You have no time for trolls which I totally understand. But not many have time for self important self appointed "educators" who think themselves above everyone else in the world.

That said, this had the potential to be a good thread... But not many people are gonna make it all the way through that astonishingly long winded lesson.

This is true. You have to handle this community with kid gloves, like how their parents likely did. And boil everything down into a succinct phrase if you can because they don't have the attention span to deal with more than a couple of paragraphs.

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Posted

i've worked hard all my life too, lol.  100 hour weeks for several year.  my kids graduated college and made it on their own too.  Saved enough to retire well off in my 50s.  i value my time, so i love the changes.  entitled, my ass.

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Posted

TLDR: Game is not P2W, I am right and you are wrong,blathers about shoes, blathers about cars.

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Posted

-Snipped to save space and not take up half a page-

I don't know who you are but I'm so glad I took the time to read all of this, to know you're from Orwen too makes me proud.

Aside from the insults to the "Overly Entitles Brats" we have on this forum. I can agree with you almost completely. Especially since, by the sounds of it, we both have been playing MMOs and have a lot of experience behind *Real P2W*.

I wish more people were like this on the forum.

New account to stay anonymous. Have the guts to reveal yourself, then I'll read your wall of text. I told to myself that I will not bother with fresh account nonsense.

FLiP, aside from the insults in the OP, if you get past that it's actually worth the read.

This post is the long winded version of what ive been telling people. What it boils down to is Pay to Win is when you can only obtain an item by buying it with real money that is godly compared to anything you can find in game. The people who spend money will not get a massive advantage its just a way to have it done faster to get to an average gear level which ill typically be around Tri everything for most people. There is a limited amount of stuff on the market place that whales will be able to buy simply because boss armor is still rare enough that people dont sell it regularly and high level gear is rare to since people arent selling it unless they are quitting the game in general. 

Self entitlement is ruining gaming because everyone wants everything for free. Daum/Kakao has been 100% upfront about everything. The pre launch dev blog even said if they added the cash shop to marketplace transactions then they would but with limitations. They only said the game would LAUNCH without pay to win aspects. Things change with time which is why they said that things might change down the road. Daum has been looking out for us every step of the way to make it not as pay to win as people assume the game is. 

+1 because if they think I'm going to be able to buy a Tri Kzarka staff on my server in the first week I'll need to make 700mill-1bil JUST to buy one.

It'll be impossible to gear based solely on Pearl shop to silver sales at the start from the market.

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Posted

I'd really like to win a gold medal in the Olympics but. I don't have time to train.

Can I just give them some money? I make a shit ton.

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Posted

I'd really like to win a gold medal in the Olympics but. I don't have time to train.

Can I just give them some money? I make a shit ton.

Training is for no lifers. They should grow up and get a job.

Kappa

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Posted (edited)

 

I do not wish to see this game ruined by self entitled people causing developers to make rash decisions as has happened so often recently.

I cannot believe I read your whole thing....but this...I agree! this game could be ruined by forumers / reditter, as long as Kakao (a group of excellent business men) listening to a bunch of cry babies and making BUSINESS DECISIONS based on that!!!

Edited by Smilence

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