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[Maintenance] Maintenance August 10th

589 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Yes I can agree with that to a point.  I'm still a noob in BD so I can't speak intelligently about this specific game, or whether I feel the changes coming tomorrow are truly P2W or not, but take the following scenario:

If the forthcoming changes allow a rich player with only 3-4 hours/day to achieve BIS/all slots 2 months before a major patch which renders the current gear outdated, and a poor player with the same 3-4 hours can't even get 1 BIS slot and 2nd tier gear for the rest of the slots to at least be able to compete, then I'll say that's P2W.  If he can, then it's not.

Likewise if someone has 10+ hours/day to spend on the game but no money and is able to achieve BIS/all within 1 month of someone with a loaded wallet, I'm sorry but that's not P2W.

The Definition of "Pay to Win" seems to be different for everyone.  Anyone who actually pays to win will muddy forums with ridiculously strict definitions and ridicule anything besides and overly sensitive, poor or non working players will have overly broad definitions.  However most people in the middle define it by the following criteria:

1) Can I use real world money to buy Best in slot Gear in 1-3 steps using in game or publisher supported mechanics?

2) Does obtaining this gear give me an unfair advantage over the average player?

3) Can I get this advantage drastically faster with minimal effort over the average player?

4) Are there in game mechanics that are only realistically overcome using vast amounts of resources obtainable via real world money?

(criteria 1 and 2 can be truncated to "Can I spend money to get an unfair advantage over other players")

For BDO this is even more true than it was with Archeage.   The average casual player might make 50-100 million a week if they are smart and use their time well playing 3-4hrs a day 5 days a week(10-20mil a day).  The average smart grinding player who busts their ass, plays 10-16 hrs a day 7 days a week might make 140 - 280 million a week (20-40mil a day). 

A player with a big wallet can spend $150 a week, playing only 30 minutes a day and make anywhere from 120mil - 425 milion a week with the 5 item sale limit. (based off of costumes selling anywhere from 30 - 100 million each.)  I don't care how many times "Plunge" yells "Source?" Logically speaking they will not go for less than 1 million silver per $1 on any cash shop item.   It just doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to sell them for any less, especially considering the gold sellers are claiming to sell 10mil silver for $10.

Boss armor and Kzarka weapons (Best in slot gear) can be purchased from the night vendor for 80-280 mil each. 

So lets evaluate based on the criteria above:

Can I use Real world money to buy best in slot gear in 1-3 steps? Yep!

Step 1) I buy 5 costumes  Step 2) I sell them on the Marketplace for 120-425 mil profit Step 3) buy Best in slot gear from night vendor

Does Obtaining this gear give me a significant advantage over other players?  Yes

Pri BiS gear easily beats anyone with up to tri weapons.   Tri or greater BiS gear stomps on everyone else. (provided equal skill and level, Gear can compensate for skill)

Can I get this advantage drastically faster with minimal effort over the average player? Over the average player with similar or even a bit more time.  Yes.   Over a dedicated grinder?  Depends.... but if the wallet warrior also grinds/plays as much as the average player then most likely Yes.

At 120mil a week  a Wallet warrior will defeat the average player every single week, but not beat out a dedicated grinder/"No-Lifer" as they call them.  However at KR prices and netting 425mil a wallet warrior will easily make more than any other player in the game per week. NOT INCLUDING ANY GRINDING OR IN GAME MONEY THEY EARN LEGITIMATELY. 

Are there in game mechanics that are only realistically overcome using vast amounts of resources obtainable via real world money? Yes  

 While not as bad as ArcheAge  realistically getting all Pen gear is only obtainable by throwing excessive amounts of in game silver at all the various resources needed to enhance your gear.  If "Valk's Cry" gets added to the game then this advantage gets multiplied drastically. 

Considering the verbiage they are using in the last update I firmly believe that Valk's Cry will be added to the game as I feel that is what they are referring to when they talk about "Non paying members getting access to pear shop items"  Valk's cry is only obtainable from melting down Pearl shop costumes.  Hence their high value on the marketplace in KR.  It probably won't be this patch but a patch in the next few weeks or months

Edited by SkullMonkey
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Posted

The silence is deafening. & yet it's speaking VOLUMES.

They know that we know that they're seeing it.

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Posted

Skill isn't the problem here. It's when you can pay for access to large amounts of silver which then leads to (easy) accessibility to greater tiers of gear + stones and shards. 

Now you have two individuals of equal skill, but one has a bigger wallet that allows them access to "the good stuff" much faster than his opponent.

Thats not true.  If you just sit there afk being a wallet warrior you will not be equal.  I will have greater levels and greater sp.  

Also paying money doesn't beat rng no matter how much cash you throw at it.

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Posted

This would be a great case study for an upper level business course in college if the changes go through as planned.

It hits major points in marketing, law, and most importantly lack of communication with your customers.

I'd love to see a college professor track this debacle and use it in their class.

You will also have contract law, failure to disclose, potential bait-and-switch, and other topics to discuss to argue if there would be a justified class action lawsuit. 

I'd love to be in that class either with a law professor or marketing professor. 

The Sad thing is that NA/EU black desert only makes up about 7-9% of the company's total revenue stream.  Their gaming division is only 29% of their total revenue. So  Even if everyone in NA/EU quit they won't lose much... that is if they JUST quit...   But even with a flurry of refunds the max damage you would cause to their bottom line would only be maybe 10-18%,  some of which would be garnered back by the Wallet warriors dropping thousands of dollars a month on the game. 

As much as I hate it they most likely carefully calculated which course of action would be more profitable :/

But regardless we shouldn't support a company like this on principal alone. 

OH and remember this term folks "bait and switch"... google it. 

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Posted

You guys know what is worse than p2w? all whining and -----ing that you all have done on forums and in the game! That has done more to ruin my "immersion" than anything Daum has ever done, I am so sick of talking about this. Its here and its happening so just accept it or move on.

This game was P2ERP anyway,
 

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Posted

Haters gonna hate

-----es gonna -----.

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Posted

The Sad thing is that NA/EU black desert only makes up about 7-9% of the company's total revenue stream.  Their gaming division is only 29% of their total revenue. So  Even if everyone in NA/EU quit they won't lose much... that is if they JUST quit...   But even with a flurry of refunds the max damage you would cause to their bottom line would only be maybe 10-18%,  some of which would be garnered back by the Wallet warriors dropping thousands of dollars a month on the game. 
As much as I hate it they most likely carefully calculated which course of action would be more profitable :/

But regardless we shouldn't support a company like this on principal alone. 

OH and remember this term folks "bait and switch"... google it. 

Its hard to bait and switch when you tell people 6 months previously, during the beta, that cash shop items will be sellable on the market place.

Hyperbole and Strawman... google it.

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Posted

Its hard to bait and switch when you tell people 6 months previously, during the beta, that cash shop items will be sellable on the market place.

Hyperbole and Strawman... google it.

Has to be prominently advertised.  If all prominent advertisements state the contrary then they can still be held liable... particularly in Europe. 

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Posted

Has to be prominently advertised.  If all prominent advertisements state the contrary then they can still be held liable... particularly in Europe. 

Strawman... google it.

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Posted (edited)

Oh boy such good communication thanks for listening 

Yeah, really makes you ask what the point of the announcement was in the first place.... they could have just announced it today or not said anything until after the fact if they didn't plan/were not capable of responding to feedback to begin with. The change itself aside, communication has been particularly horrible concerning this matter. The announcement seemed to come outa nowhere for many and left more than a few people scratching their heads and asking for more info or for some elaboration. I, and others, feel like an update on the planned direction of the game is in order. Seeing as this seems like a 180 from what was being clearly spelled out in CBT and just prior to this month... 

 

Heck, more than a few members of the community feel like the next announcement we get could very well be the game going F2P.... we, the community, now have little to no idea what changes are planned next. Many of us can't tell where the game is planning on going in the future anymore and don't like this state of unknowing we have been left in. 

Edited by Whatwhat

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Posted (edited)

Thats not true.  If you just sit there afk being a wallet warrior you will not be equal.  I will have greater levels and greater sp.  
Also paying money doesn't beat rng no matter how much cash you throw at it.

OH yeah?  Ask Romero that in ArcheAge... you know the guy with ALL MYTHIC gear who got their after spending around 100k on the game.   Just think of how many resources he accumulated with THAT much money.... No matter how you slice it, overcoming RNG takes massive amounts of attempts fueled by massive amounts of resources and the fastest way to get said resources is cold hard cash.   Sure he'll have to grind for a while to get skill points and his personal PvP skill, but that's a month or 2 max. 

Strawman... google it.

Huh. funny.  I saw a picture of you on your knees in front of a Kakao exec who was grinning and counting your money.  

 

Edited by SkullMonkey
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Posted

Thats not true.  If you just sit there afk being a wallet warrior you will not be equal.  I will have greater levels and greater sp.  
Also paying money doesn't beat rng no matter how much cash you throw at it.

After next patch Valks cry will come too for sure..no need to hold that item off anymore,.

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Posted

 

Huh. funny.  I saw a picture of you on your knees in front of a Kakao exec who was grinning and counting your money.  

 

I guess you have no actual valid response so you must resort to insults.

You can't make your invalid argument valid by insulting the person who shoots it down.

Nice try at obsfuscation but 0/10 for creativity.

Put more effort into your insults because that was rather pathetic.

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Posted

I guess you have no actual valid response so you must resort to insults.

You can't make your invalid argument valid by insulting the person who shoots it down.

Nice try at obsfuscation but 0/10 for creativity.

Put more effort into your insults because that was rather pathetic.

Naw, don't need to. Already said them.    LoL but you're too cute trying to be all intellectually high and mighty.  Keep being precious bb

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Posted

Naw, don't need to. Already said them.    LoL but you're too cute trying to be all intellectually high and mighty.  Keep being precious bb

Keep being wrong bruh.

Your ignorance is bliss.

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Posted (edited)

The Definition of "Pay to Win" seems to be different for everyone.  Anyone who actually pays to win will muddy forums with ridiculously strict definitions and ridicule anything besides and overly sensitive, poor or non working players will have overly broad definitions.  However most people in the middle define it by the following criteria:

 Finally, an informative post.  Here's my breakdown:

 1) Can I use real world money to buy Best in slot Gear in 1-3 steps using in game or publisher supported mechanics?

2) Does obtaining this gear give me an unfair advantage over the average player?

Honestly these two don't concern me much.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with 1.  Just as someone may hate the fact I can use real money to buy BIS gear in 1-3 steps, I hate the fact that I don't have the time available like others do to grind for it hours upon hours per day.

2 is all about scale, which is where 3 and 4 come in:

 

3) Can I get this advantage drastically faster with minimal effort over the average player?

 

 3.  Drastically here is the key word, and I don't look at this as an advantage.  Remember, they're not buying anything that you can't get yourself.  This goes along with my previous post.  If I can DRASTICALLY get BIS gear across the board light-years faster than everyone else, then yes there's a problem.  If I get the gear a couple months before it's slated to become deprecated via a patch, but you're still able to grind it out and accomplish this one month later, I see nothing wrong with that at all.

4) Are there in game mechanics that are only realistically overcome using vast amounts of resources obtainable via real world money?

4.  This can definitely be a major problem, though it really depends on the specifics.  Forgetting PvP for the time being, typical dungeons don't require BIS gear to be able to conquer them....especially since their drops are typically BIS lol.  So that said, if people can't get adequate gear to run those dungeons without dumping boatloads of cash, then yes there's a problem.  If raid leaders are being elitist, however, and not allowing people to run those dungeons unless they have BIS, then the problem isn't the cash shop, it's the dumbass people leading the raids.   

The average smart grinding player who busts their ass, plays 10-16 hrs a day 7 days a week might make 140 - 280 million a week 

A player with a big wallet can spend $150 a week, playing only 30 minutes a day and make anywhere from 120mil - 425 milion a week with the 5 item sale limit.  

A lot depends on the much larger range you quoted for the big wallet player.  Let me say it this way, if your smart grinding player can only pull in 140mill per week, while the big wallet player can pull in 425, that seems like too large of a discrepancy and might justify P2W.  If you're talking 200 mill vs 300 mill, then that seems reasonable.  A lot still depends on what kind of total funds you're looking at for both players to be competitive come end game though (and I have no clue)...

 

Next I'll jump straight to your detailed #3 since I've addressed my feelings on 1 and 2 already:

Can I get this advantage drastically faster with minimal effort over the average player? Over the average player with similar or even a bit more time.  Yes.   Over a dedicated grinder?  Depends.... but if the wallet warrior also grinds/plays as much as the average player then most likely Yes.

At 120mil a week  a Wallet warrior will defeat the average player every single week, but not beat out a dedicated grinder/"No-Lifer" as they call them.  However at KR prices and netting 425mil a wallet warrior will easily make more than any other player in the game per week. NOT INCLUDING ANY GRINDING OR IN GAME MONEY THEY EARN LEGITIMATELY.  

Hmm, well I'm not sure it's a valid argument to hold grinding against a wallet warrior.  In the end what are they really netting?  Just a surplus of cash once they've maxed everything out.  At that point they're just supporting the game with little benefit to themselves, more power to them.  Though as I said before, 120:425 seems like too disparate a ratio so if those numbers turn out to be accurate, then yes there's a problem.  Again, 200:300....not so much.

Are there in game mechanics that are only realistically overcome using vast amounts of resources obtainable via real world money? Yes  

I firmly believe that Valk's Cry will be added to the game as I feel that is what they are referring to when they talk about "Non paying members getting access to pear shop items"  Valk's cry is only obtainable from melting down Pearl shop costumes.  Hence their high value on the marketplace in KR.  It probably won't be this patch but a patch in the next few weeks or months

And here we have the real TRUE definition of P2W imo.  I don't know jack about these Valk cry's but if what you say is true:

1. they can only be obtained by breaking down items from the cash shop

2. they're integral to end-game gear

Now you have an item that can ONLY be purchased through the cash shop which goes beyond being cosmetic or of minimal functional purpose. 

In this case Pearl items would have to be made available via in-game means because it'd be even more egregious if it was completely inaccessible to people who just want to grind without opening up their wallets.  At least this way, they can still grind their asses off to get them, but you're still talking about P2W in this case.

Edited by tjr.gsa

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Posted

Keep being wrong bruh.

Your ignorance is bliss.

Calling me stupid?  Now who's not being creative?  LOL   Later precious you have a good night stroking your own ego. 

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Posted

Its hard to bait and switch when you tell people 6 months previously, during the beta, that cash shop items will be sellable on the market place.

Hyperbole and Strawman... google it.

im very sorry, but i was there on both beta and they said the opposite, that pearl item would never be on the market, go back to school young kid

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Posted

Man imagine what bdo couldve been in the right hands..

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Posted (edited)

im very sorry, but i was there on both beta and they said the opposite, that pearl item would never be on the market, go back to school young kid

no... They Said that it Could Happen in a later state of the Game... So you Are wrong bro that Post was on 15th january Even before the release... This also means you Cant refound a Shit, cuz they Said it there that it is possible

image.png

Edited by Matzesingt

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Posted

The fact that you put this up before even responding to the s*itstorm outburst you have from the future content being released tomorrow really shows that you sooooo care about the community. Way to s**t on your game and your community. You couldn't even say sorry or even respond. Kiss your game goodbye.

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Posted

What do you expect from a game with a cash shop? Those crying should know that the shop comes first. Iam all for the pearl shop items being on the marketplace. Iam glad they know that plenty of people want this change and that those complaining are minority. Those who dislike it, it would be good if they all leave, as the game will be better off without the crying drama queens.

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Posted

If they sold more variety and better costumes, pets and etc. they wouldn't need to go the route they are planning to do.  Who wants to pay for the limited stuff they have available.

 

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Posted

Man, and people think Activision and EA are bad...

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