• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Rise of the amount of chargebacks (p2w update)


729 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

 

 

It looks like some people didn't like the "last announcements". Daum noticed people want their money back because they are upset about the last p2w changes. After the promises by Daum the people expected this version to be different than the russian or korean version. Too bad the lies were only a bait. Now Daum is sending mails to scare people and make them cancel their chargebacks. It would be interested to see how many players reported this scam.

My opinion is when you make false promises to bait people you shouldn't wonder why they are upset later.

FYI:

Greetings,

Due to recent events regarding our last announcement, we started to see a rise of the amount of chargebacks requested by our players. We feel that any situation involving money requires as much information as possible, and would like to make sure you are aware of what a chargeback is, and what consequences come with it.

First of all, what is a chargeback? A chargeback is requesting a refund from your bank or payment provider, bypassing the company that sold/provided the product. Bear in mind, the selling company will have a chance to investigate and dispute the chargeback.

Chargebacks are broken into two fundamentally different categories: Legitimate and Illegitimate.
Legitimate chargebacks are when you contest a payment because you have not received the goods or services you purchased, or because someone stole your credit card.
An illegitimate chargeback would be requesting your money back, after using a service for several months and deciding you don’t like it anymore.

In either case, it is understandable why someone would wish to get their money back, however, chargebacks should always be done with caution. A chargeback will not only cause you to lose access to the game, but it can also prevent you from purchasing it in the future. More importantly, we will investigate each chargeback, individually. If the chargeback is proven to be illegitimate, this could go farther than just the denial of your refund. Your Credit Score could be impacted. (“Creditworthiness” attached to each person, this is usually something mortgage companies and financial institutions will look into, before approving credit or offering services).

To conclude, requesting chargebacks should be done after cautious investigation from your part to know all of the possible consequences. Where a finalized chargeback would lead to the withdrawing of your game access, a cancelled chargeback will have no lasting effect on your account.

To allow you time to consider your decision, and fully assess the impact these changes will have on your enjoyment of Black Desert Online, we will not take action on your account until the [date] August, after which time, any account with outstanding chargebacks will be closed.

Kind Regards,

GM Unknown
English Games Master

Our knowledge base is regularly updated with current issues. It will answer some of the most common questions and save you having to wait for a response from a Games Master.

You can access the knowledge base by following the link below. https://blackdesert.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

You can also follow our social media pages for news and announcements. https://www.facebook.com/BlackDesertOnline/ https://twitter.com/BDO_news

 

 

Edit:

Welcome to adulthood, you can't just throw a tantrum and take your money back without consequence. Charge backs are not built in refund mechanics.

Thats only partly correct. A few years ago in law school I learned about contracts and similar stuff. Although I learned about national law I think international law is similar. At least in the EU where I come from.

You can't advertise a product with false or misleading claims. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising

 

See what happened to others:

http://www.businessinsider.com/false-advertising-scandals-2011-9?op=1&IR=T

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/misleading-claims-advertising/false-or-misleading-claims

 

I know online games aren't taken serious. People are always "Oh its just a game" but for real its a product like everything else and the law also applies to it. I suppose the people read on the forum about this product before they bought it. They were in good faith when they bought this product: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith_(law)

 

You will get problems in the near future if you ever want to get a mortgage or even a simple phone contract. But go ahead forum badass, be cool in an internet videogame forum and ruin your credit rating.

What makes you think so? Just because they said so? More than 3000 votes on the forum didn't like the last changes. Almost 5000 people signed the petition. Im pretty sure there are many hundred or even thousand people who are upset about Daum. So what is Daum going to do against a few thousand angry people? Fighting everyone in court? They will just lose even more money and get the biggest shit storm ever. They already got one going on the forum, twitch, youtube, a few gaming news and other media. Do you think this will help them?

They sold more than a million copies of this game. In the worst case the angry people fight together and fill a class action lawsuit and Daum gets fined (a few millions). Im sure there are enough people who would start one. There are more hilarious cases where people have won so please stop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action

Read more about it here:

What are some types of class actions?

Examples of class actions include claims by:

Consumers who purchased the same defective product or who were deceived by the same false advertising or manipulative business practices;

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/about-us/class-action-faq/

 

This is why they have Pearls instead of direct purchases of Cash Shop items. Because items value or purpose can change, and you can claim that it's not the same item that you bought. But pearls don't change. They are the same Pearls.

People bought the game with money and not pearls. They also spent money on it because they were in good faith. The staff made posts with false advertisement. So please...

 

Yeah they saw our feedback, chose to ignore it and then threaten the most upset of our community.

Thats only gonna drive em be more likely to charge back however I bet. 

The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth for this publisher. I've weathered a lot of publisher bull over the last 12 years, Daum sure is prone to sparking drama. If they'd learn to communicate instead of leaving a pile of dog trash on the floor and leaving for the weekend they'd have happier customers.

I agree. In all cases a shitstorm will make them suffer. The shares of their company will go down so fast. The more negative media they get the worse it gets for them. They can sue every single person but in the end they still lose because the media will tear them them apart. You already saw the media started to report about this. Have fun when the bigger media talks about Daum who tries to sue gamers. You could instantly close the company because players will avoid it for ever.

 

 

ChGMF24.png

 

They responded on about half of them and still lost.

Thank you I will use this as leading case for my case: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/leading+case

This should be a big win for every angry customer.

The biggest question is what wil PayPal do? Getting a hundred or even thousand chargeback requests of angry customers doesn't make Daum look like a serious company.

 

 

Sorry I don't want to read all pages. I stopped at the second or third page. I wanted to spend more money on this game but now its over. Scam someone else. I won't support Pay to win. Good luck everyone. If anyone gets sued make a post and start a class action lawsuit. Many angry customers will follow you.

 

 

Edit: FYI Daum is violating law: https://www.facebook.com/Pearl.Abyss.Black.Desert/posts/10154031025693124

FOR EU-PLAYERS:
We as consumers in the E.U. are protected by several laws regarding falsified and misleading advertising. Under the directive of 84/450/EEC article 2.2

For NA PLAYERS: (all credit goes to Reddit)
Consumers in NA have a valid point in this case as well, as [Reddit-User] has pointed out the FTC in NA hold up a similar directive in their endorsement guides.

Edited by Atagi
22 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

They are even offering people who overreacted over nothing a chance to cancel the chargeback and yet you still find a way to hold that against them. Well, I sincerely hope that none of the complainers will be as spineless as to actually make use of that offer. A futile hope, I know.

6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 

Quote: "Black Desert online as a game is good enough quality that we actually can ask for money upfront. And it will also help balance the game because we do not have to use Free to play, P2W and something to earn money"....... "Players: buy to play once, can play it whenever, there is no subscription model, we do have a cash shop, but that cash shop will mostly only sell vanity items and some convenient items, but nothing that relates to P2W model".

8 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You are charging back the Pearls you bought with your money. Which has nothing to do with P2W or not. Because you buy pearls and not items that are now concidered to be P2W.

So you are committing a fraud. And now you are risking to not only to not get your money back, but also to get banned in the game.

 

So be very careful when you consider the chargeback. The consequences are the very big.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Those charge backs will be noted at Paypal and/or with your credit card company.  Just because you can, does not mean you should.

Once again your description of P2W does not line up with everyone, nor is there an industry wide accepted definition.  So you use some loose wording to make your case.

That candy bar just fell into my pocket officer.  Really.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

that cash shop will mostly only sell vanity items and some convenient items, but nothing that relates to P2W model

yep that is what we just got

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Well they ignore all our feedback, atleast they NOTICE the charge backs. Holy shit looks like the only way to get noticed is to speak to their wallets, who would have guessed??

Edited by Harming
8 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It's fraud. Also, it's not P2W; outfits are cheap. 

6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Quote: "Black Desert online as a game is good enough quality that we actually can ask for money upfront. And it will also help balance the game because we do not have to use Free to play, P2W and something to earn money"....... "Players: buy to play once, can play it whenever, there is no subscription model, we do have a cash shop, but that cash shop will mostly only sell vanity items and some convenient items, but nothing that relates to P2W model".

Ok?

The problem is that people assume that their definition of p2w and Daum's definition of p2w are the same thing.

Can you conclusively show me anywhere them claiming they think selling pearl items = p2w?


Can it not easily be argued that the fact that they are putting both price and sale volume restrictions on is their way of keeping it away from what they would consider "relating to a p2w model"?

Also, they openly said in plain english it was a possibility from the beginning.

Edited by bakimono
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

yep that is what we just got

Hahahahahaha...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The fact that so many people wear doing chargebacks as a point of pride is disgusting, it's clearly fraud, you're being proud of committing fraud because you're throwing a tantrum. The fact that so many of you bought an mmorpg without realizing mmorpgs CHANGE is hilarious, the fact that so many of you feel you're entitled to your money back after who knows how many months of play is sad. You all sound like the sort of people that go shoplift or vandalize a grocery store because they didn't take your damn coupon or something.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

you know commiting fraud like this can lead to prison time right?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hahahahahaha...

dude if you think 20+ bucks is worth ~20 million I have news for you, it's not.  I could buy a ton of costumes and sell them but I can make way more money ig doing other stuff like fishing and then also still have money irl.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Ok?
The problem is that people assume that their definition of p2w and Daum's definition of p2w are the same thing.

Can you conclusively show me anywhere them claiming they think selling peal items = p2w?


Can it not easily be argued that the fact that they are putting both price and sale volume restrictions on is their way of keeping it away from what they would consider "relating to a p2w model"

Then Daum should have outlined their definition.

The restrictions only matter if they actually hold. How long until they need more money and bump them up? I mean, they have shown a willingness to do things that the community does want (well by the time they would need to raise the caps, the community may have changed enough to want it).

In the end it still has hurt their reputation.

Chargebacks are still idiotic, but Daum could have did so much more to avoid this instead of the silence and vague terminology they have used.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

you know commiting fraud like this can lead to prison time right?

No one is going to prison for their bdo chargeback though.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Then Daum should have outlined their definition.

The restrictions only matter if they actually hold. How long until they need more money and bump them up? I mean, they have shown a willingness to do things that the community does want (well by the time they would need to raise the caps, the community may have changed enough to want it).

In the end it still has hurt their reputation.

Chargebacks are still idiotic, but Daum could have did so much more to avoid this instead of the silence and vague terminology they have used.

Yes, they should have.

Yes they do. Hard to say. It's certainly a concern of mine and it's something I'm keeping an eye on and ties directly into why I'm no longer spending money.

It does, indeed hurt their reputation.

I do agree they could have handled it better... but like you said it doesn't really justify fraud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

No one should charge back just stop playing let the game run its course an die

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You used their service several months for hundreds of hours and now want to charge your money back.

You will get problems in the near future if you ever want to get a mortgage or even a simple phone contract. But go ahead forum badass, be cool in an internet videogame forum and ruin your credit rating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

you know commiting fraud like this can lead to prison time right?

Can you cite a single case of someone going to prison for charge back fraud?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

After the promises by Daum the people expected this version to be different than the russian or korean version.

People were specifically TOLD it would be different. Here are two statements made by the Marketing Manager, Rick Van Beem:

“We believe that Black desert online as a game has good enough quality that we can actually ask for money up front and it also helps to balance the game SO WE DON'T HAVE TO USE FREE TO PLAY OR PLAY TO WIN ANTICS TO EARN MONEY" 

Our western version will differ in many ways from the version that is out in other markets and the buy to play model will help us balance the game. Players buy the game once and they can just play it whenever there is no subscription model. We do have a cash shop but that cash shop will mostly only sell vanity items and some convenience items BUT NOTHING THAT RELATES TO PAY TO WIN MODEL"

 

 

Edited by realistic1
9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Some of the actions and comments over the last few days have been beyond contemptible so I have no doubt there will be people that will use this latest update as an excuse to initiate chargebacks, I'm just glad that once they do, they are banned and gone for good.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Im pretty sure that once someones pissed enough to charge back they no longer care about an in-game ban.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Can you cite a single case of someone going to prison for charge back fraud?

depends on the amount of money you got back from the charge back frauds and I have been reading people have charged back up to like 5 grand on bdo and if the developers raised charge back fraud tickets you will have to pay back all the money + whatever the solisoters costed both sides in addition to the court fees so basicly you will have to pay atleast double back and you only get a max of 30 days to do so or you get locked up for awhile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

While I for my part will not try issuing a chargeback since I invested almost nothing beyond the actual game purchase, I think people who do should be in a strong position. EU for instance has very strong consumer protection and if push comes to shove, there is a lot of ground to prove that bdo's launch was bait and switch. Perhaps more importantly, if there is a large number of concurrent chargebacks that shows up with the banks, they will see this as an issue with the product and not with a specific customer. This will make Daum's/Kakao's position for fighting these chargebacks with the banks quite weak.

Edited by Cookie van Snott
7 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites