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Rise of the amount of chargebacks (p2w update)


729 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Are you referring specifically to transactions that dealt only with paypal balance?

Any transaction that takes money through paypal but uses a bank or credit card to draw from ultimately have to be processed as a charge back.

It's not like PayPal is just going to eat that loss and banks / credit institutions aren't going to reverse a charge without a process and documentation.

Also read into their policy and procedure about appealing a lost claim. It kinda shows you how screwed you are as a buyer if Daum appeals it.


https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

Bottom line is...do what you like...you will get your refund.  When Paypal cannot get the money back from Daum...they will charge you for it again instead.

Stop being little whiny -----es, take it on the chin as a lesson learned and move on with your godamn lives.  Bakimo is 100% correct in what he states.

I might probably get a ban for this, but several people of my guild has got their disputes resolved by paypal in the buyers favor and money have arrives immediately.

See above.....

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Posted (edited)

If people charge-back for pearls then Daum can claim that they got the pearls, which after all is what you paid for. You didn't pay for the cash shop items themselves you paid for the pearls which is why you have to buy them first before purchasing anything from the cash shop. 

If people charge-back the game purchase due to false advertising then Daum just needs to direct them to all the disclaimers in their previous posts such as "if we do allow cash shop items on the marketplace then there will be limitations" which is exactly what they have done.

People seem to think that because charge backs have won in the past they'll win now, ignoring the fact that Daum just didn't respond to the charge-backs. The fact that they have sent out an e-mail now shows that they will be disputing them. I don't even know why they're giving people a chance to cancel the charge-back, they should just dispute it straight away and ban the person whatever the outcome. 

"If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace"

19-20 million silvers/costume packs and 5/week are "heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace". If most of players can't or don'T generate 10 million silvers/days or they can farm "Only" 2-3 million silvers/hour this  is 3-5 hours/day farming  converted to real money. Maybe small group of players farm 20 million silvers/hours or 10 million, but most of players have lower income  "speed". This is not real and fair limitation now.

+ UPDATE in that topic (You know it: Update = fresh informations. the relevant and final version):

"Update

  • You will not receive Mileage with pearl purchases, the only way to get mileage is as a daily login reward.
  • Cash Shop & Mileage items cannot be traded or put on the Auction House"

Your partial and false version and the "Update" version are fake promises too.

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

Are you referring specifically to transactions that dealt only with paypal balance?
Any transaction that takes money through paypal but uses a bank or credit card to draw from ultimately have to be processed as a charge back.

It's not like PayPal is just going to eat that loss and banks / credit institutions aren't going to reverse a charge without a process and documentation.

When a claim is found in favor of the buyer, they are awarded their refund from the sellers paypal account or associated banks funds. Which are then applied to your paypal balance which you can then transfer into your own bank account. I see no reason for the buyers bank to even need to reverse any charge. As far as the buyers bank is concerned, the person made X purchases through paypal, and now is depositing X money into their account via paypal. It's pretty cut and dry. You cannot appeal as a seller once you've lost a claim.

 

And Maviarab I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation here which you clearly aren't equipped for so if you'd kindly leave the thread.

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Posted (edited)

When a claim is found in favor of the buyer, they are awarded their refund from the sellers paypal account or associated banks funds. Which are then applied to your paypal balance which you can then transfer into your own bank account. I see no reason for the buyers bank to even need to reverse any charge. As far as the buyers bank is concerned, the person made X purchases through paypal, and now is depositing X money into their account via paypal. It's pretty cut and dry. You cannot appeal as a seller once you've lost a claim.

You're incorrect and not understanding the policy you're linking and really should read more carefully.

PayPal is not authorized to draw money out of banks nor cancel a credit card transaction, they have to follow protocol to have the issuing financial institution to do it and that involves charge back protocols.


You very much can appeal as a seller when you've lost a claim, it's spelled out in their own policy.

How to appeal a claim

When a claim’s decision is reached in favor of the buyer, you may be able to appeal it. The decision could be reversed in the event of one of the following:

  • The item is returned to you, but not in the same condition as the buyer first received it
  • No item was returned at all – just an empty box
  • The wrong item was returned to you

You can file an appeal in just a few steps:

  1. Log in to your account
  2. Go to the Resolution Center
  3. Select “Closed Cases” from the drop-down menu
  4. Click the “Appeal” button

    Once your appeal is filed, you may be asked to provide documentation supporting your case, fill out an affidavit, or file a police report (depending on the circumstances). Then we’ll have a representative review your case. If an appeal is granted, you'll be reimbursed for the transaction.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

You're correct paypal is not authorized to draw money out of banks, they are absolutely authorized to put your paypal balance into the negative territory in which case you're in poor standing with paypal and the buyer winning the claim will still get their funds, the seller will just have a negative paypal balance is all. and did you even read the link you just posted? Cause none of these apply at all to this situation

How to appeal a claim

When a claim’s decision is reached in favor of the buyer, you may be able to appeal it. The decision could be reversed in the event of one of the following:

  • The item is returned to you, but not in the same condition as the buyer first received it
  • No item was returned at all – just an empty box
  • The wrong item was returned to you

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Posted

"If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace"

19-20 million silvers/costume packs and 5/week are "heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace". If mnost of players can't or don'T generate 10 million silvers/days or they can farm "Only" 2-3 million silvers/day this  is 3-5 hours/day farming  converted to real money. Maybe small group of players farm 20 million silvers/hours or 10 million, but most of players have lower income  "speed". This is not real and fair limitation now.

+ UPDATE in that topic (You know it: Update = fresh informations. the relevant and final version):

"Update

  • You will not receive Mileage with pearl purchases, the only way to get mileage is as a daily login reward.
  • Cash Shop & Mileage items cannot be traded or put on the Auction House"

Your partial and false version and the "Update" version are fake promises too.

Heavily profiting is arguable considering many players can make just as much if not more money in short order. If you're making 2-3 million in 3-5 hours of play you are wildly inefficient. I have crappy gear and I can easily make the same amount of money as someone spending $150 / week in under 10 hours a week (and have for a long time). They promised controls, they put controls. If you want to assert that they are heavily profiting you have to demonstrate average silver generation across the playerbase which is information you don't have and they very likely do.

"Cannot" is present tense as well and at the time of posting it that was true. Updated information doesn't necessarily mean it replaces old information it can also mean added information.

They could have said you cannot make a ninja in there as well and it wouldn't make them liars once ninja was added to the game.

Nothing you quoted there is concrete and doesn't demonstrate a lie or false advertising, especially considering in that document they tell you it is possible to come and article 9 of the ToU informs you that changes may come at a later date and you have to sign a legally binding contract acknowledging you read and accept the terms.

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Posted (edited)

Heavily profiting is arguable considering many players can make just as much if not more money in short order. If you're making 2-3 million in 3-5 hours of play you are wildly inefficient. I have crappy gear and I can easily make the same amount of money as someone spending $150 / week in under 10 hours a week (and have for a long time). They promised controls, they put controls. If you want to assert that they are heavily profiting you have to demonstrate average silver generation across the playerbase which is information you don't have and they very likely do.
"Cannot" is present tense as well and at the time of posting it that was true. Updated information doesn't necessarily mean it replaces old information it can also mean added information.

They could have said you cannot make a ninja in there as well and it wouldn't make them liars once ninja was added to the game.

Nothing you quoted there is concrete and doesn't demonstrate a lie or false advertising, especially considering in that document they tell you it is possible to come and article 9 of the ToU informs you that changes may come at a later date and you have to sign a legally binding contract acknowledging you read and accept the terms.

1hour/day limit converted to real money is +59 minutes advantage in p2w users. If you can get 5-10 hours/30 days that is MAYBe fair. Or 1 hours average players farming /day. Not high-end gear player in dead server after 30 minutes traveling time in limited monster output area if he farm it solo in this server.

 

+the problem is that all news and interviews BEFORE we buy this product suggest that we don't get standard f2p microtransaction system with RM-in game resource convert options.

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted (edited)

You're correct paypal is not authorized to draw money out of banks, they are absolutely authorized to put your paypal balance into the negative territory in which case you're in poor standing with paypal and the buyer winning the claim will still get their funds, the seller will just have a negative paypal balance is all. and did you even read the link you just posted? Cause none of these apply at all to this situation

How to appeal a claim

When a claim’s decision is reached in favor of the buyer, you may be able to appeal it. The decision could be reversed in the event of one of the following:

  • The item is returned to you, but not in the same condition as the buyer first received it
  • No item was returned at all – just an empty box
  • The wrong item was returned to you

I did read it, you can still demonstrate the buyer downloaded and received the product and you can still appeal a dispute as a seller.

Paypal has only just started dealing with digital distribution goods and they haven't quite updated all of their help pages; but feel free to talk to a representative and discover the truth of that for yourself.

1hour/day limit converted to real money is +59 afvantage in p2w users. If you can get 5-10 hours/30 days that is MAYBe fair. Or 1 hours average players farming /day. Not high-end gear player in dead server after 30 minutes traveling time in limited monster output area if he farm it solo in this server.

Can you translate that to English? I don't understand.

I am hardly in high end gear and I can easily outpace the money made from selling cash shop stuff between passive income and farming.

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

Heavily profiting is arguable considering many players can make just as much if not more money in short order. If you're making 2-3 million in 3-5 hours of play you are wildly inefficient. I have crappy gear and I can easily make the same amount of money as someone spending $150 / week in under 10 hours a week (and have for a long time). They promised controls, they put controls. If you want to assert that they are heavily profiting you have to demonstrate average silver generation across the playerbase which is information you don't have and they very likely do.
"Cannot" is present tense as well and at the time of posting it that was true. Updated information doesn't necessarily mean it replaces old information it can also mean added information.

They could have said you cannot make a ninja in there as well and it wouldn't make them liars once ninja was added to the game.

Nothing you quoted there is concrete and doesn't demonstrate a lie or false advertising, especially considering in that document they tell you it is possible to come and article 9 of the ToU informs you that changes may come at a later date and you have to sign a legally binding contract acknowledging you read and accept the terms.

Actually that does fall under failure to disclose which is a form of false advertising via;

Failure to Disclose It is considered false advertising under the Lanham Act if a representation is "untrue as a result of the failure to disclose a material fact." Therefore, false advertising can come from both misstatements and partially correct statements that are misleading because they do not disclose something the consumer should know. The Trademark LawRevision Act of 1988, which added several amendments to the Lanham Act, left creation of the line between sufficient andinsufficient disclosure to the discretion of the courts.

 

Using the word "cannot" and arguing that was only meant as a present tense term and didn't apply to future updates is misleading at best

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Posted (edited)

I did read it, you can still demonstrate the buyer downloaded and received the product and you can still appeal a dispute as a seller.
Paypal has only just started dealing with digital distribution goods and they haven't quite updated all of their help pages; but feel free to talk to a representative and discover the truth of that for yourself.

Can you translate that to English? I don't understand.

 "If you're making 2-3 million in 3-5 hours "

No. 99% of players will not farm 10 million silvers/hour. And this is not 2-3 million silvers/3-5 hours,. This is 2-3 million silvers/hours maybe and if RM users get 10 million silvers/day this is 3-5 hours advantage. Or one time  25 hours farming time vs real money in al 7th day. This is not real limitation.

 

and translate: If you get same resources in 1 hour than RM users , but other 99 players can't do the same this is not real argument.

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

You're incorrect and not understanding the policy you're linking and really should read more carefully.
PayPal is not authorized to draw money out of banks nor cancel a credit card transaction, they have to follow protocol to have the issuing financial institution to do it and that involves charge back protocols.


You very much can appeal as a seller when you've lost a claim, it's spelled out in their own policy.

How to appeal a claim

When a claim’s decision is reached in favor of the buyer, you may be able to appeal it. The decision could be reversed in the event of one of the following:

  • The item is returned to you, but not in the same condition as the buyer first received it
  • No item was returned at all – just an empty box
  • The wrong item was returned to you

You can file an appeal in just a few steps:

  1. Log in to your account
  2. Go to the Resolution Center
  3. Select “Closed Cases” from the drop-down menu
  4. Click the “Appeal” button

    Once your appeal is filed, you may be asked to provide documentation supporting your case, fill out an affidavit, or file a police report (depending on the circumstances). Then we’ll have a representative review your case. If an appeal is granted, you'll be reimbursed for the transaction.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

Once again you are mis-understanding. That 2nd part there is just information on how to file an appeal should one of the 3 aforementioned circumstances be met. As I stated earlier there is no sellers protection on digital goods.

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Posted

If people charge-back for pearls then Daum can claim that they got the pearls, which after all is what you paid for. You didn't pay for the cash shop items themselves you paid for the pearls which is why you have to buy them first before purchasing anything from the cash shop. 

If people charge-back the game purchase due to false advertising then Daum just needs to direct them to all the disclaimers in their previous posts such as "if we do allow cash shop items on the marketplace then there will be limitations" which is exactly what they have done.

People seem to think that because charge backs have won in the past they'll win now, ignoring the fact that Daum just didn't respond to the charge-backs. The fact that they have sent out an e-mail now shows that they will be disputing them. I don't even know why they're giving people a chance to cancel the charge-back, they should just dispute it straight away and ban the person whatever the outcome. 

Not picking on you, just wanted to point out something.  You didn't buy a single pearl with your money, You bought Daum Cash... they can then prove with their game logs easily that you then spent your Daum cash right away.  (to buy pearls).  It's the reason are moving to not letting you buy the in-game currency directly and make you do an extra step.  So if you spent the Daum cash, they can easily prove that you received what you wanted (pearls) from them.  And now it is on you to prove you didn't receive the pearls, or the pearls where not what you wanted.  Anything you can DO with the pearls or the game itself will be irrelivent to the claim in this case.

 

Just thought i'd let some people know. ^_^

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Posted (edited)

Once again you are mis-understanding. That 2nd part there is just information on how to file an appeal should one of the 3 aforementioned circumstances be met. As I stated earlier there is no sellers protection on digital goods.

Those are possible cases but not the end all be all of the possible reasons.

Like I said, feel free to talk to a paypal representative and confirm it. This sort of thing is what I do for a living, getting money people who think they can weasel out of paying for services they received.

Granted I never touch cases that are less than $500

 "If you're making 2-3 million in 3-5 hours "

No. 99% of players will not farm 10 million silvers/hour. And this is not 2-3 million silvers/3-5 hours,. This is 2-3 million silvers/hours maybe and if RM users get 10 million silvers/day this is 3-5 hours advantage. Or one time  25 hours farming time vs real money in al 7th day. This is not real limitation.

 

and translate: If you get same resources in 1 hour than RM users , but other 99 players can't do the same this is not real argument.

Can you prove the claims you are making here?

I never said I can make the same resources in 1 hour as a RM user, I said over the course of a given week of play.

I make less money than almost everyone I know and I still outpace the 60-70 million you can make a week selling CS items with an average of 10 hours a week of playing and afk fishing overnight/ at work. 3-5 hours of extra advantage would be hard to argue as "heavily profiting" which was the point I was making in the first place.

Mind you, I am opposed to the change and have been vocally so, but you're kidding yourself if you think you were lied to.

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

fun talking to you, off to SWTOR have a good night guys :)

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Posted

fun talking to you, off to SWTOR have a good night guys :)

have fun with your p2w game ;) 

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Posted (edited)

have fun with your p2w game ;) 

I don't mind paying for a sub when I know Bioware and Lucasarts aren't gonna be -----ing their customers and actually listen to feedback :)

 

just for the record, being able to sell cash shop items for silver or gold in WoW is completely irrelevant to BDO. Silver is the sole means of progressing and upgrading your character. In games like SWTOR or WoW, you have to actually raid and play the game to acquire the best gear. You can't just buy it or the mats to make it directly off the Auction House

Edited by Thunderkyss65

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Posted

"If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace"

There we go, looks like you just disproved your entire argument. :) 

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Posted (edited)

Those are possible cases but not the end all be all of the possible reasons.
Like I said, feel free to talk to a paypal representative and confirm it. This sort of thing is what I do for a living, getting money people who think they can weasel out of paying for services they received.

Granted I never touch cases that are less than $500

Can you prove the claims you are making here?
I never said I can make the same resources in 1 hour as a RM user, I said over the course of a given week of play.

I make less money than almost everyone I know and I still outpace the 60-70 million you can make a week selling CS items with an average of 10 hours a week. 3-5 hours of extra advantage would be hard to argue as "heavily profiting" which was the point I was making in the first place.

Mind you, I am opposed to the change and have been vocally so, but you're kidding yourself if you think you were lied to.

You will not farm  75 million silvers in 3-5 hours.  RM user gets 10 million silver/day if he/she/it gets 76 million silver/WEEK vs  5 RM costume packs. This is not real limitation. AND if you can farm 3 or 5 million silvers in one average hour you will get 75 (or 76) million silvers in 25 or 15 hours. This is not "small" advantage in real money side.

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

There we go, looks like you just disproved your entire argument. :) 

That was before the "UPDATE" which negates that whole post. 

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Posted (edited)

There we go, looks like you just disproved your entire argument. :) 

What argument.? RM users can get 300 million silvers/month. This is "Heavy" profit. And UPDATE is fresh and relevant information in this Publisher's topic. That is clear. No "restrictions".

Edited by Mikroman

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Posted

I might probably get a ban for this, but several people of my guild has got their disputes resolved by paypal in the buyers favor and money have arrives immediately.

I certainly hope they are no longer playing.

And, I find it extremely unethical that anyone would ask for a complete refund on something they used for six or more months and up to as many as 3,000 hours. If you paid $100 for it then 3,000 usage hours later you effectively paid about 3 cents per hour. Getting a full refund...or any refund...after that much usage is just wrong.

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I don't mind paying for a sub when I know Bioware and Lucasarts aren't gonna be -----ing their customers and actually listen to feedback :)

HAHAHAHA. You obviously have not been there from the start. They're no better or worse than Daum or any other company.

 

You will not farm  75 million silvers in 3-5 hours.  

Quote me saying I will make 75 mil in 3-5 hours. How about you make rebuttals to things I actually say instead of things I didn't?
 

RM user gets 10 million silver/day if you get 76 million silver/WEEK vs  5 RM costume packs. This is not real limitation. AND if you can farm 3 or 5 million silvers in one average hour you will get 75 (or 76) million silvers in 25 or 15 hours. This is not "small" advantage in real money side.

Your math is off. 19m for the first purchase, 12.35m for the 4 others is the maximum amount of money you can make currently. that's 68m not 75 and that's assuming it all sells.

Farming 3-5m / hour is also discounting passive income and afk fishing income.

I know more than a few people who are already netting 30-50 million per day playing less than 4 hours a day and among my circle of friends it seems to be pretty average that people are making more than 20 mil / day between their actual grinding and passive income.

The top end people I know who are actually in the wealth rankings make double and triple that.

I didn't say it was a "small" advantage, I said you'd need to actually see data on how much people make to assert it is or isn't a "heavy advantage" and the part of the statement you totally ignored was the controls in place. There are, indeed, controls and Daum has said they will carefully monitor it to gauge if there needs to be adjustment.

On average in middle end gear cash shop users are getting an extra ~2 hours a day worth of income. That's something, and it should be something for $150, but I'm not sure I would assert that it is huge or a heavy advantage.

I am not a fan of this change but, again, you were not lied to and there was not false or misleading advertisement.

 

That was before the "UPDATE" which negates that whole post. 

Sure, if you don't speak English and understand what that word actually means and assert it has one and only one definition; ignoring the one about incorporating additional ideas or states.

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Posted

Can't you just have a ToS that can make chargebacks a "no-can-do" once they press "accept to terms of agreement" when they buy the coins for the cash shop?

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Posted

Kinda funny.  Most of you don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to chargebacks and the legality of it.

And everybody's talking like his country laws are global laws... It's not. US & EU have real differences and... inside the EU there are a lot of consumer rights differences between countries... But it's easier to take our own perception/opinion/experience as a global rule... Braindead people.

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