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Rise of the amount of chargebacks (p2w update)


729 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Directly quoted from Paypal 

It’s not what they expected.

Your customer has received the item but it’s not what they expected. Perhaps it was damaged during shipment, doesn’t work, is missing parts or is just totally different. Always provide clear descriptions and photos when selling items.

This is exactly the reason why people are charging back their payments. Because they got something "totally different" to what was promised. 

Once Kakao show them logs of you using their service for hundreds of hours your paypal will get closed and the money gets back to kakao. but nice try

Edited by Sheneria

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Posted (edited)

Directly quoted from Paypal 

It’s not what they expected.

Your customer has received the item but it’s not what they expected. Perhaps it was damaged during shipment, doesn’t work, is missing parts or is just totally different. Always provide clear descriptions and photos when selling items.

This is exactly the reason why people are charging back their payments. Because they got something "totally different" to what was promised. 

You didn't buy items with your money. You bought Pearls. Pearls didn't change in any way. They are the same Pearls as they were 5 month ago.

What you do with your Pearls is not Paypals concern.

 

Edited by Tresed
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Posted (edited)

You didn't buy items with your money. You bought Pearls. Pearls didn't changed in any way. They are the same Pearls as they were 5 month ago.

What you do with your Pearls is not Paypals concern.

 

Most people are not charging back pearls, they're after there initial expenditure on BDO which was their pre-order. Charging back pearls has no basis. Charging back an actual product however. 

Edited by TheEntelexia

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Posted

You didn't buy items with your money. You bought Pearls. Pearls didn't changed in any way. They are the same Pearls as they were 5 month ago.

What you do with your Pearls is not Paypals concern.

 

Some people buy pearls not because they are obsessed with the pixels they can get using said pearls but simply in a good faith, to support a company that promised them a certain future for their product. If they then turn 180° and break all their promises all those customers were scammed by false advertisement.

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Posted

Most people are not charging back pearls, they're after there initial expenditure on BDO which was their pre-order. Charging back pearls has no basic. Charging back an actual product however. 

That's the whole trick that Kakao pulled on all of us.

A lot of players wondered why did this game haven't gone F2P yet, even though our Channels are not crowded anymore?  Or Why there were no Server merges, or number of channel reduction.

Because Kakao was very careful to keep the game the same as when you bought it. It's the same B2P game as it was 5 month ago.

Now if they changed the game model to F2P - you can claim a charge back. Because now you payed for something that doesn't exist anymore. That's how Kakao got you. And that's why you won't get much from your charge back now. Because Kakao covered it self on all fronts.

 

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Posted

I really hope these people doing chargebacks get indicted for fraud.

not likely.  When banks start seeing charge backs like this for one thing.  They will question the seller not the consumer.  They will ask kakao why people are charging back in doves.  And potentially black list them as a seller if bad enough.

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Posted

 

Hey they gave you time until the 22nd to pay it back or face consequences. I would take the chance but i know a forum badass like you knows better right .

Have fun without Bdo and paypal access soon :)

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Posted

That's the whole trick that Kakao pulled on all of us.

A lot of players wondered why did this game haven't gone F2P yet, even though our Channels are not crowded anymore?  Or Why there were no Server merges, or number of channel reduction.

Because Kakao was very careful to keep the game the same as when you bought it. It's the same B2P game as it was 5 month ago.

Now if they changed the game model to F2P - you can claim a charge back. Because now you payed for something that doesn't exist anymore. That's how Kakao got you. And that's why you won't get much from your charge back now. Because Kakao covered it self on all fronts.

 

I know several dozen people that have successfully charged back their accounts without fault and there are many more saying the exact same things on the forums. Personally, I am not charging back cause I'm not finished with the game. But, if I was in a position where I felt utterly betrayed by a product supplier, I would be within my rights to challenge my purchase.

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Posted

but nothing that relates to P2W model".

P2W is an entirely subjective term.  It's not a lie if your interpretation of their words does not match their intent.  

I wish people would stop quoting this, its meaningless and also an incredibly stupid/nebulous thing for a publisher to say in the first place.

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Posted

Your customer has received the item but it’s not what they expected. Perhaps it was damaged during shipment, doesn’t work, is missing parts or is just totally different. Always provide clear descriptions and photos when selling items.

You do know that this part only applies to physical good, right? 

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Posted

Some people buy pearls not because they are obsessed with the pixels they can get using said pearls but simply in a good faith, to support a company that promised them a certain future for their product. If they then turn 180° and break all their promises all those customers were scammed by false advertisement.

This is why they have Pearls instead of direct purchases of Cash Shop items. Because items value or purpose can change, and you can claim that it's not the same item that you bought. But pearls don't change. They are the same Pearls.

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Posted

B2P model has nothing to do with P2W.

B2P means you need to Buy game in order to play it, and that's it.

 

Why are you trying to use generic terminology as a valid argument instead of looking at the actual point I made which is how this game was marketed as b2p with heavy anti-p2w stance? 

I suggest you tell Daum Marketing Manager Rick Van Beem that a b2p model has nothing to do with p2w model as he used the initial up front investment (up to $100) of the b2p as an excuse to AVOID the antics of p2w to make money. When he was specifically asked WHY the game was b2p he stated: “We believe that Black desert online as a game has good enough quality that we can actually ask for money up front and it also helps to balance the game so we don’t have to use free to play or pay to win antics to earn money.”

This was heavily marketed as b2p and anti-p2w and once they had their initial cash grab from the b2p, they deceptively switched right into their p2w scheme to grab a little more. This decision will have devastating long-term ramifications. I already noticeably see a difference with the number of players in game on the Orwen server in this last week so let's just look at the player numbers a year down the road....  

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Posted

They won't get indicted for fraud in any case, ever.

First thing that will happen is Paypal tells Kakao: ----- you and take these guys to small claims court if you have a problem with the chargebacks.

Next, Kakao spams every chargeback customer with a claim for fraud.

There we go on the proceedings:

The defendants says: it's a legitimate chargeback because I feel -subjective alert- that the product differs from my expectation.

Kakao: look at the ToS.

Defendant: well screw you nobody looks at the ToS, my expectation is based on interviews/forums/whatever

The judge asks himself: can this subjective expectation be objectively justified or not? Which would make the chargeback legit pr not.

 

The court gets swamped with similar cases and combines them into one. (I really hate the technical part behind this so we'll skip it)

And okay, probably Kakao wins these cases. After a lot of time, effort and legal kung fu with the defendants who don't need lawyers in small claims court.

 

The first step to take for Kakao lawyers is scaring some people in canceling the chargeback to size down the problems a little, and see where it would be the wisest venue  to start the claims. HQ in Amstelveen would take it to the court in Amsterdam. Which will be awesome, ill take my popcorn and go there. I might as well represent some defendants as have a degree in dutch law lingering around somewhere here.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted

no thats not the same.  Its more like buying a car with a v10 then going to the shop and them telling you nah bro this is a 4 cylinder rice burner.  

no it isn't, because MMOs are subject to frequent change (patches), while a car changing so dramatically is incredibly unusual.

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Posted

Hey they gave you time until the 22nd to pay it back or face consequences. I would take the chance but i know a forum badass like you knows better right .

Have fun without Bdo and paypal access soon :)

Let me enlighten you boy. They can't do anything about it, the case is already closed and the funds are refunded back to me already. When a case closes it can't be opened again. Even if they could they would lose again. Cheers

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Posted

not likely.  When banks start seeing charge backs like this for one thing.  They will question the seller not the consumer.  They will ask kakao why people are charging back in doves.  And potentially black list them as a seller if bad enough.

Hey guys, we got a professional banker, here! :o 

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Posted (edited)

A chargeback after this long is like going into a Subway ordering a Philly cheese steak, consuming said philly cheese steak, then demanding a refund because the new Philly cheese steak has gouda instead of provolone.

Also the clauses people are citing for evidence that paypal is on their side is in regards to physical items. Digital items are a gray zone where they are considered nonrefundable when consumed. Consumption is defined as any amount of time with the item which has been activated.

Edited by Guzzi
Spelling is an issue on phones.

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Posted

 

Sure whatever floats your boat i guess. And Paypal will ban you not Kakao  but i guess that is too complicated for you to understand :)

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Posted

Let me enlighten you boy. They can't do anything about it, the case is already closed and the funds are refunded back to me already. When a case closes it can't be opened again. Even if they could they would lose again. Cheers

oh honey... Make sure you don't spend all that money you charged back, if you think deposit reversal isn't a thing you are in for a very ugly surprise

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Posted

Hey guys, we got a professional banker, here! :o 

actually it happened to me through paypal.  Though it was the reverse 30k in micro transactions in less than 48 hours.  They locked the account and funds to investigate why there was such an increase and so many transactions.  

If you dont think they wont do that for charge backs you are delusional.

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Posted

Dude you do not wanna mess with my PayPal knowledge. I am the expert of chargebacks.

The people who are currently winning chargebacks (if they are) is because Kakao doesn't respond within 10 days and PayPal auto awards you the case. They don't read what you wrote, it's all done automatic. But if Kakao does respond, then you'll be -----ed because now you have an actual person reviewing each cases and reading the seller's message and if they point out ToS, they'll favor the seller because all of you would technically be the ones violating the ToS. You can write all your sob story about "false advertisement" and etc but they'll just be thinking or saying why are they waiting until like weeks later to chargeback since it's virtual item and was delivered on day of purchase. And goodluck trying to explain how MMORPG and P2W (an opinion) works to an PayPal employee lol. Not to mention that you purchased Daum Cash, not Pearls so again goodluck explaining with that part as well.

uhm

name a single case where any judge decided in favor of a developer/publisher versus a player because of the TOS - a fluid "document" at best

now personally I've requested of this publisher the price of the game returned (not all the extras from the conquerors package I purchased) since it is no longer the game I purchased nor is it a buy2play game - as far as all the "daum" cash purchased that is tossed to the wind

I certainly don't expect a favorable response - when that is proved to be true I will resort to a full refund/chargeback through PayPal of all monies spent on this game

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Posted (edited)

Hey they gave you time until the 22nd to pay it back or face consequences. I would take the chance but i know a forum badass like you knows better right .

Have fun without Bdo and paypal access soon :)

" I Choose Violence "

Edited by Thranduil
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Posted (edited)

Let me enlighten you boy. They can't do anything about it, the case is already closed and the funds are refunded back to me already. When a case closes it can't be opened again. Even if they could they would lose again. Cheers

Woah there little Nobody, don't get so angry over a video game. Its a good think your Paypal won't work soon and you have time to find a new hobby right? ;) 

Maybe go out and play with your friends :)

Edited by Sheneria

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Posted

uhm

name a single case where any judge decided in favor of a developer/publisher versus a player because of the TOS - a fluid "document" at best

now personally I've requested of this publisher the price of the game returned (not all the extras from the conquerors package I purchased) since it is no longer the game I purchased nor is it a buy2play game - as far as all the "daum" cash purchased that is tossed to the wind

I certainly don't expect a favorable response - when that is proved to be true I will resort to a full refund/chargeback through PayPal of all monies spent on this game

And you think PayPal is a judge? This isn't court lol. PayPal will go by the ToS.

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Posted

Yeah they saw our feedback, chose to ignore it and then threaten the most upset of our community.

Thats only gonna drive em be more likely to charge back however I bet. 

The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth for this publisher. I've weathered a lot of publisher bull over the last 12 years, Daum sure is prone to sparking drama. If they'd learn to communicate instead of leaving a pile of dog trash on the floor and leaving for the weekend they'd have happier customers.

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