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Rise of the amount of chargebacks (p2w update)


729 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Delete this post Mods.
 
Accident reply..
Edited by Aries

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Posted



 

It's fraud when you do it under false pretenses, because the game made a change they said might come isn't a valid reason for a charge back.
Go run your credit score right now and do it again in 6 months and compare the numbers.

You think you're showing them, but really you've just exposed yourself to legal risk and real long-term consequences over a video game.

Excellent Points, however you are missing the 1 part 

Living in Moms basement, and it is the Parents cards and paypal..... 

 

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Posted

Country of origin does not matter.
That's not how charge backs work.

Charge backs are *NOT* refunds nor is a charge back request a refund request.

Do yourself a favor and research what a charge back is and how it can negatively effect you.


 

It's fraud when you do it under false pretenses, because the game made a change they said might come isn't a valid reason for a charge back.
Go run your credit score right now and do it again in 6 months and compare the numbers.

You think you're showing them, but really you've just exposed yourself to legal risk and real long-term consequences over a video game.

What is this credit score people talking about? That some american thing right that isn't valid for EU?

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Posted (edited)

With your guidance councilor or your parole officer.?

 

Excellent Points, however you are missing the 1 part 

Living in Moms basement, and it is the Parents cards and paypal..... 

 

Please kids, I make more than the two of you combined before you even count work income. I've probably spent more online in the past 6 months than you've both made in a year. You're delusional if you think it is a crime to file for your money back and you need to get back down to earth.

 

If they ban you, it'll be even easier for you to get your money back fyi.

Edited by Grieve
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Posted

First of all if costume is 20 M or 100M is same factor u use real cash to get ingame silver ( aka advantage ) is p2w bait peps to B2P model to not invest anything from your pocket on servers and anything ............ Translate the game from kr doing nothing else and expect to make millions $ milking players with p2w tactics after u said u do B2p model coz u dont want p2w like other versions ( after that u say that u wanna help poor peps to experience perl shop items ) Fk off kaka games really

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Posted

This conversation almost feels like a hobo trying to convince a experienced CEO how to run a business and make money.xD

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Posted

Hey guys, we got a professional banker, here! :o 

He's outnumbered by all of the professional lawyers.

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Posted (edited)

Excellent Points, however you are missing the 1 part 

Living in Moms basement, and it is the Parents cards and paypal..... 

 

If I tried to monkey around with my parent's card and issue chargebacks like that they would report me.

My folks never coddled me and always made sure I understood I would be accountable for my own actions. Committing fraud is one thing, doing it on someone else's financial information is far more serious.

 

What is this credit score people talking about? That some american thing right that isn't valid for EU?

Not sure if serious or joking... EU has credit scores too.

 

 

Please kids, I make more than the two of you combined before you even count work income. I've probably spent more online than you've both made in a year. You're delusional if you think it is a crime to file for your money back and you need to get back down to earth.

Again, not a crime to issue a charge back, is a crime to do it under false pretenses.

Seriously, I would love to hear how this all works out for you in 6 months.

Edited by bakimono

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Posted

If I tried to monkey around with my parent's card and issue chargebacks like that they would report me.
My folks never coddled me and always made sure I understood I would be accountable for my own actions. Committing fraud is one thing, doing it on someone else's financial information is far more serious.

 

Not sure if serious or joking... EU has credit scores too.

 

Again, not a crime to issue a charge back, is a crime to do it under false pretenses.

There's no false pretenses in claiming the item is not what you ordered, or that it is not as described upon purchase. If you told them that someone stole your card 8 months ago and bought all that, then you got false pretense.

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Posted

If you have no history of chargebacks they can literally do nothing. You get your money back without risk, end of story. You can also attach credible sources from gaming news sites. Initial announcements of the product being sold and recent announcements that makes the initial announcements a lie that got you to purchase said product.

As for calling it fraud. Advertising a false product which you generate income from is also fraud.

There have been so many of these cases that it reduces their credibility to 0. Unless you have crazy charge back history for some reason. You don't have to worry about this they won't be able to object to your request.

From Bank of America:

A chargeback is a processed credit card transaction that is reversed (charged back) to a merchant because the customer or customer's bank finds something wrong with the transaction.

There are several reasons a transaction can be reversed:

  • Authorization error: a transaction was allowed even though the authorization was declined 
  • Processing error: incorrect calculation on the sales draft, invalid account number, or expired card 
  • Customer disputes: the customer denies taking part in the transaction, claims purchased merchandise or services were never received and an attempt was already made to resolve the dispute, mail order merchandise was defective, or a promised credit was never processed 

Oh, and from The Consumerist:

Top 10 Reasons Your Chargeback Will Be Denied

A reader who works in the chargeback section of a major credit card company has just about had enough with people tossing around “chargeback! chargeback!” as the solution to every customer service problem. While it is a great tool, you gotta make sure you use it right. To help you do that, here’s our credit card company insider’s guide to the top 10 reasons why your chargeback will get rejected.

10. LYING
Remember, the merchant does have a chance to rebut these things. If you tell us that you ordered widget A but received widget B but have no proof, and the merchant sends proof that you actually ordered widget B, you’ll probably be getting rebilled!

9. THE CHARGE IS TOO OLD
Please, please check your statement every month. We work within very limited timeframes, and, technically, you are required to notify us of a dispute (in writing! Just calling in doesn’t obligate us to do anything), within 60 days of the statement date the charge appears on. Visa gives some extensions: non-receipt and quality. With quality, you have to show you’ve been working with the merchant consistently to resolve the problem. MasterCard pretty much only gives extensions on non-receipt.

8. NOT GETTING A SECOND OPINION LETTER FOR CHARGEBACKS OVER $100
If you’re disputing the quality of something over $100.00 or so, it pays to get a second opinion letter. Within reason, of course. If you’re disputing the quality of a repair, on the other hand, you pretty much have to have one. These need to be on a merchant’s letterhead and have actual details about your dispute. “Car still broken,” will get you started, but if the merchant sends a rebuttal it’s probably not going to fly.

7. YOU BOUGHT IT IN FRANCE
The lovely consumer protections we enjoy in the U.S. do not follow you across our borders. If you buy something overseas, the burden is on you to return the item and prove it the merchant accepted the return before we can do anything. International quality disputes? Forget it. Strangely enough, this is the one category that MasterCard is better in as it does not differentiate between domestic and foreign merchants.

6. TRYING TO CHARGEBACK A DIRTY HOTEL ROOM AFTER YOU STAYED IN IT
If you go to a hotel and the room is filthy, leave within 20 minutes and get proof of your checkout, if possible. If you stay the night, you accept the room.

5. NO PROOF YOU MADE THE RETURN BY MAIL
When you return something by mail, GET PROOF OF RETURN. This can not be emphasized enough. Tracking numbers work best, return receipts work as well. When you return something you have the same burden of proof to show the merchant gets it back as they do to show you have it in the first place.

4. FORGETTING THE DATE IT HAPPENED
When asked for dates, please provide them and be as specific as possible. It doesn’t have to be exact, but if you called around the middle of the month, April 15, 2009 is better than April 2009, especially since we’re going to have to call you to get a more specific range and do the same thing anyway. “Don’t remember” is not a valid option.

3. NOT GIVING THE MERCHANT A CHANCE TO FIX THE PROBLEM
Get in touch with them before you get in touch with us. Believe it or not, most merchants are actually on the up and up! If the merchant offers to try to fix whatever problem you have without charging more, you have to give them the chance. If you’re from New York and got your car repaired in Florida, you get back home and the repair isn’t working right, still have to give them a chance.

2. DISPUTING THINGS FOR THE WRONG REASON
It makes things more difficult and makes it more likely that you will lose. Don’t dispute things as “unauthorized” unless you never gave the merchant your credit card number. Don’t dispute things as “non-receipt” if the merchant did do something but you didn’t get the results you wanted.

1. USING MASTERCARD
With Mastercard (MC) the burden of proof lies on you. If you buy something face-to-face, get home and realize that it’s not as described, you’re out of luck entirely as you had a chance to examine the merchandise. Also, with MC it’s entirely up to you to know the merchant’s cancellation/return policy, even if they don’t disclose it. They didn’t tell you that you couldn’t cancel after three days? Too bad. Seriously, just use a Visa. It’s easier for everyone.

---------------------

Good luck....LULZ!!!

 

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Posted

There's no false pretenses in claiming the item is not what you ordered, or that it is not as described upon purchase. If you told them that someone stole your card 8 months ago and bought all that, then you got false pretense.

How is it not as described on purchase?

Did you not read the ToS? Do you not understand that's a legally binding agreement? Did you miss that they openly said this change was a possibility and it's documented?

You really make all that money and you don't understand how you've exposed yourself here?


http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/8038-pm-diary-22-cash-shop-and-more/

 

Note:

  • Cash Shop items will not be possible to sell on the marketplace at launch phase
  • If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace
  • 100 Mileage will be distributed via daily login
  • Miles are family bound; items are character bound

https://www.blackdesertonline.com/legal/terms-of-use

 

9. PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO BETA TEST PHASES

 

Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary, Kakao Games Europe does not provide any warranty for the Game during the Beta Test phases, including that all features tested during the Beta Test phases will be available at the Release or that the Game will operate properly. The User understands that the Beta Test phases are used by Kakao Games Europe in order to test the servers, the localization of the Game, balance and modify Game features. As such, the Game may be unstable during the Beta Test and the gaming experience may change at the Release.

 

The User is informed that all the characters created in the Game, including all their experience and items, (i) may be wiped during the Beta Test and (ii) will be wiped at the end of the Beta Test, before the Release. In such an event, Kakao Games Europe will not become liable to User for any costs, loss or damage.

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Posted

wtf what where u buying with all those there aren't that much items in the shop

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Posted

wtf what where u buying with all those there aren't that much items in the shop

Photoshop?

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Posted

Not sure if serious or joking... EU has credit scores too.

Just asking since almost no one in Sweden use their Visa/MasterCard as credit cards, you need money on your account and if you don't purchase won't be possible and we for sure don't have anything like credit score.

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Posted

Just asking since almost no one in Sweden use their Visa/MasterCard as credit cards, you need money on your account and if you don't purchase won't be possible and we for sure don't have anything like credit score.

uhhh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_score#Sweden

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Posted (edited)

wtf what where u buying with all those there aren't that much items in the shop

Tears maybe... Horse skill changes?

Hell I went through 34 of the skill change items just on one hope skill.

Or he could be as indecisive as I was and end up with quite a few costumes for each character on his account.

Edited by Kema

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Posted

Just asking since almost no one in Sweden use their Visa/MasterCard as credit cards, you need money on your account and if you don't purchase won't be possible and we for sure don't have anything like credit score.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_score#Sweden

You do have some system for it that is similar, and you may be more insulated than some.

That being said, you very likely aren't all that insulated from having your claim denied / refunded and having your account closed if the seller wins the dispute and could even face charges of fraud... but I am not terribly familiar with how it works there.

Most countries have some kind of credit score / credit worthiness metric.

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Posted

 

Please kids, I make more than the two of you combined before you even count work income. I've probably spent more online in the past 6 months than you've both made in a year. You're delusional if you think it is a crime to file for your money back and you need to get back down to earth.

Sure you do. lulz.

BTW, I'm Warren Buffett and I own you, your family, and your daughter's virginity. Bow down to me NAO!!!

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Posted

wtf what where u buying with all those there aren't that much items in the shop

Costumes for multiple classes, full inventory on multiple classes and maybe full bank space in every town and believe that amount wouldn't cover it.

If you then in horse breading and pets you have a different story :)  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_score#Sweden

You do have some system for it that is similar, and you may be more insulated than some.

That being said, you very likely aren't all that insulated from having your claim denied / refunded and having your account closed if the seller wins the dispute and could even face charges of fraud... but I am not terribly familiar with how it works there.

Most countries have some kind of credit score / credit worthiness metric.

Only thing that can show up on our records are if you fail or refuse to pay bills or pay back loans called "Betalningsanmärkning" (non-payment record)

What bank do if you want a loan is to check your income to see if you care able to pay back the amount with your current income and that you have any non-payment record. These also gets purge in 3 years so we can't get a permanent record.

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Posted

I'm loving all you keyboard warriors who are tanking your future credit score over a video game. It's hilarious that you'd do that over something so petty.

I mean, have any of you even considered what might happen if you need a bank loan in a few years and get refused a good deal because of a shitty credit rating? Who's gonna give you a low interest credit card if your have a documented history of charge backs?

Have fun with your 35% APR while I'm sitting here on 16%

Probably end up costing you more than you would ever spend on pearls :D

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Posted

Can't really compare it like that, it would be more that you went in and bought a Sub, and they had one which just contained cream butter and Goats cheese. You happily start to eat it and you're happy.

About halfway through your sub they grab a hold of it and change the butter to organic butter instead, take off the goats cheese and insert cheddar, and also decide that you need some ham on it as well, then they announce that others can come and have a bite of it for free.

I'd be pretty upset if someone did that to my sub to be honest :P

Theres so many interviews and documents out that clearly states that "Items from the pearl shop will not be available on market" that consumers should save them before they are cencosered and removed. Kakao now also using illegal scare tactics isn't really good either, that thing that OP said that they sent is against Paypals seller policy. and if Paypal finds out that, that is in fact true that they do that, they could possibly be digging their own grave. yes theres also one or two places from long lost beta where they said "this might change" but some of the claims and interviews are after that. so yeah..

The whole ordeal has become a sad orchestra by now, they have already done so much damage to the game we all like, not just by features but announcing stuff like they did and then implement it, and now trying to scare consumers into not standing by their rights (theres a lot of consumer laws in play for several countries here, their scare tactic isn't above the law)

besides yes, if people aren't aware that they as consumers have a lot more rights than people seem to claim then yes people will be scared, and its sad.

Either way, we all love BDO, but the dmg is already huge and the ripple effect of it is insane, wether we like it or not thats the reality.

My analogy is: I go into a store looking to buy a box of muesli that I had seen in an advertising campaign where they compared their product to other muesli brands that I knew had hazelnuts in them and when they listed the ingredients of this particular brand, they didn't list any nuts. They had also mentioned in the advertising campaign that they were wary of using nuts in this particular niche brand and since I am allergic to some but not all nuts, I buy the muesli. 

After I have consumed 4 bowls of it during the week, on the fifth morning I suddenly go into anaphylactic shock and then when recovered decide I want my money back inclusive of the petrol it cost me to get to the store, the time I wasted going to the store and recompense for the emotional and physical distress caused. I head into my solicitor's office and lay out my claim, he turns up the next morning holding a box of the aforementioned muesli and silently points...there on the bottom lower left in tiny writing is the disclaimer/warning 'may contain traces of nuts'. 

Warning: 'If we decide to enable selling cash shop items at a later stage'

I have yet to see any actual evidence where Daum/Kakao representatives stated that the game WILL NEVER have any cash shop items transferable to the the marketplace and basing it on peoples varied perceptions of pay to win and then screaming 'but it's pay to win' is not enough.

 

 

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Posted

 

Please kids, I make more than the two of you combined before you even count work income. I've probably spent more online in the past 6 months than you've both made in a year. You're delusional if you think it is a crime to file for your money back and you need to get back down to earth.

 

If they ban you, it'll be even easier for you to get your money back fyi.

lmao how do you know how much I make?

wow.... balls on you lol 

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Posted

Paypal does not allow charge backs unless the items received were not as described or never received.  All of you babies and QQ'ers should get -----ed.  You aren't entitled to a charge back just because you use the items for months and have your fun then decide against the purchases.  This is fraudulent and will be treated as such.  I just wanted to represent the other side of the coin.  This game is great and will remain great with our without your banned asses.  Get -----ed.

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Posted

I find it contemptuous the way the have treated the community not only that but they choose to send this mass email out rather than sending the message via the Paypal resolution centre (The legal way to deal with a dispute) this is in violation of Paypals TOS which trumps Daums.

Further more this is NOT FRAUD. There is nothing illegal about opening a dispute, especially if you choose the correct option (RE: Not the "I didn't receive this item" box)

Daum has commited "False or Misleading Representations and Deceptive Marketing Practices" which yes, despite receiving your item is perfectly liable and again is NOT fraud to open a dispute.

US, Canadian and EU laws all cover you for this along with Paypal covering you for the email fiasco.

Please note I have only charged back for my pearl purchases, the reason being that the pearl items I spent on have had a significant change and I could of used my pearls for the changed items. I have not charged back my game - I bought it, I played it (2 weeks now) and while it's not a perfect game I settled for using it and I am not owed a refund on it (Unless I exercise my consumer rights for misleading representations but I don't wish to do that)

So in summary, as long as you are handling it the LEGAL and CORRECT way none of this is fraud.

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Posted

Look... I am not a fan of the changes but you people really need to come to grips with the reality of the situation.
They didn't lie. Charge backs made because of this change are fraud, and it costs them money to deal with it and, in the end, harms all parties involved.

Daum isn't shocked that people are upset, they are warning people that they will go after fraud and are giving people notice to re-consider their actions. Most companies don't go after charge backs because it's typically not worth it, once it breaks the threshold of it being more cost effective to go after it than ignore it the people who did it are in for a rude awakening.

Welcome to adulthood, you can't just throw a tantrum and take your money back without consequence. Charge backs are not built in refund mechanics.

Yep people need to understand a company doesn't take action like this unless there is money to be made.

Businesses are all about the money and only the money so I don't understand why people are acting so shocked by Daums decision.

Plus if you can throw your credit card at this game then that means you are an adult, and an adult should be somewhat mature and responsible with their money.

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