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Gear and player gaps. Too much for average player?

154 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

First of all I am not going to minimize the crazy amount of work and effort people have put into their gear and character because I know it has been monumental.  You all deserve what you have.

My question:  Is the gear/player gap too large in the game to keep the average player interested or feel like they have a chance and will they want to continue to pvp or even attempt to pvp?

My answer is not really.  There are players that can wipe 5, 10 maybe more what I would consider well geared players.  While this might be fun for the well geared guy, is this good for everyone else?  Once again no.  As it is nearly impossible to ever compete with that guy.  The guys that can play all day and night will never ever be caught.  Catching up to well geared players is tough enough if you have limited playing time.

There is too much disparity in gear now.  The game was settling out pretty well when we all were stuck at  +15.  Not anymore.  It is sad when you are a 400 ap/dp guy fairly balanced and you get one or two shot, you watch damage to opposing players that seem to do nothing.  To a more laid back person this pretty discouraging. 

Is this why so many people have left this game?  Obviously class balance is a terrible joke.  The Awakenings will probably make things worse not better.  Do people that are super geared really get off stomping far lesser geared/skilled people?

While lesser geared folks can man siege equipment and be helpful is that enough to keep them interested in the long haul?  Probably not. 

I wonder what the demographics or metrics are for the player base of BDO NA/EU.  How much time does the average player actually actively play the game?  Can the game survive long term if it appears to cater to those with far more time which gives them a significant advantage, which they earned, but puts everyone else is a very large competitive disadvantage.

If this is a problem, how can it be solved, or can it be solved or is this a fatal flaw in the game.

This game churns through players like nothing before it and this was happening long before the P2W argument or the Awakening conspiracy.  Can any of the old players be lured back.  So many big and small guilds continue to fold, merge or have lousy showings for Castle wars and node wars.  What is causing the bleeding and how can it be stopped.  I wonder which chases more people the gear issue or the RNG issue or something else.

Can we possibly have some civil discussions on issues like this.  Do you agree with me?  Do you have other opinions why?  Any good ideas for fixes?  We probably will not all agree with each other but maybe for once :) we can try to look at issues or topics from a different angle. 

 

 

Edited by Talizar
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Posted (edited)

eh I'm casual and I don't ever expect to be on par with people who play 8+ hours a day and are already at 400+ gearscore

that's just my play style though

I don't need to be the best, or even able to compete with the best, to have fun

I'll be playing BDO for a long time regardless

Edited by Anemone
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Posted

After losing 2 months of "work" to RNG just to be at the start again I stopped caring. There are maybe people who think banging your head repeatedly against the brick wall until one of them breaks is fun or even commendable. I dont. There are other ways to play and have fun for me, not just constant grind and struggle to get gear.

I can only say the game that cant attract and retain new players is not going to last very long. Take it as you will.

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Posted

Yes, nicely put Kat. BDO can't attract new players and retain even current ones. In the end main reason it might potentially die out because of too huge difference between hardcore and average players. More average ones will stop buying pearls or just quit playing then kakao will have to introduce even more p2w items to cover the losses. That folks would "conveniently" need to buy to stay competitive. But remember cash they got from the game launch will last for next 8-10 months at most and then they would need to do make some profit. It's not charity org. Meanwhile even more folks will quit after realizing it's first game where struggle, rng and facing OP players has such a huge impact on their own gaming experience. We are not Koreans we have different mentality. In general western people don't like to grind just for taking fun from grinding itself. Well i'm not a seer but future of this IP isn't as bright as for other well known mmos out there. Maybe it's really greedy and toxic folks that it will drag it down first than Kakao...

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Posted

i've read ppl complaining about the fact that node wars is barely correctly populated, imho that's a good way to see that ppl dont give a crap about the pvp here.

( and not because the game lose players, at least in a abnormal way ) And i totaly bet that the reponsible of that is clearly that no skill RNG gear 2 win """"progression"""

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Posted

Blame Daum for not giving everyone awakenings to grind with ....  the speed at which you would make money would rapidly increase 

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Posted

anyone under 400 combined ap/dp needs to git gud and l2p.

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Posted

There's a catch 22 above level 50, now. You can't get the gear you need to farm the silver you need to buy the gear you need to advance. Not that there's any +15 gear being auctioned, anyway. It's all PRI and DUO which just puts it further out of reach.

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Posted

With awakenings people will slowly move to valencia locations, since clearspeed improves enough to farm rare drops alongside silver... So it wont be just hunter paradise...

But yeah you should try to hit that TRI ASAP and any way possible, bcs of huge jump from DUO... Luckilly grinding aint the only way to earn silver (stones drop from gathering and prospecting doesnt cost energy anymore)...

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Posted

There is so much available to do in this game.

I just don't understand players who don't play games to have fun.

 

Give the grind a break guys it seriously isn't going to matter in the long run.

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Posted

If you are constantly being crushed in node wars maybe finding a smaller guild and going for lower level nodes might help? I highly doubt 420+ APDP people are fighting for T1 nodes. Once your gear is better, then consider joining the bigger guilds with goals.

Just look look at how WoW was before, you didn't join the top end guilds to get carried for gear. You worked your way out with lower guilds and hopped once you reached certain point of gear.

I would also say that getting TRI is reasonable even for people who play less. After that RNG diminishing returns really start kicking in and gear upgrading becomes VERY expensive. The cost for full TRI is probably same than getting 1 TET (unless you are lucky)

In the end, casual player with good RNG can have better gear than someone who spends double time grinding money.

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Posted

anyone under 400 combined ap/dp needs to git gud and l2p.

this.

I got people in my guild who play 2-3 hours a day and still got 430+ ap/dp

and no they don't sell shop items and no they're not extremely lucky.

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Posted

The PvP will always be ruled by the Hardcore/Lucky players.

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Posted (edited)

 

thanks for the interesting read.

similar questions were held 2 years ago in Wildstar. (Raid Atunement etc) After doing too little too late they noticed the hard way that the largest part of their demographics werent the catered "hardcore" players but casuals. after 200+ layoffs and canceled launch in china, the game struggels to survive this year and the fired people are b1tching on glassdoor about carabine and their strategy (basically all stuff the nitpicky players told them since beta)

(i´m saying htat cause im concerned about bdo´s general player retention strategy.  being able to often work from home especially when not traveling and measured on quarterly success i´m still in a comfortable position equipment wise)

Edited by Nirax
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Posted

Play efficiently with the time you have and you will do just fine. I know people who play 1/5th of the time i do and are billions of silvers worth ahead of me in gear, sure i got crappy luck it would seem but still..just spend your time efficiently.

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Posted

 

I can only say the game that cant attract and retain new players is not going to last very long. Take it as you will.

As much as I don't want to I do definitely agree with your statement. This is coming from somebody with 453 APDP.  

What concerns me about this game more than anything is that you gimp yourself by walking away from it for any length of time and you'll be behind by a great deal. Too much changes on a day-to-day basis and the game really forces you to never be away from it. Going on a 2 week vacation would mean that you fall behind by another level or maybe hundreds of millions in earned silver and boss upgrades.  

You would then fall behind the top 5-10% and that power curve is the difference between winning and losing not just nodewars/sieges but top recruit talent, xp camps, etc. I think that is one of the big reasons that people just choose to walk away knowing that they can never really be competitive without sacrificing too much RL.

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Posted

I quit 4 months ago because of gear, It was pain in the butt and as a breeder (back then) money came extremely slow.

I been playing for about 2 weeks now, and I am at PRI full grunil armor, duo Main PRI offhand, 2 quest rings (7ap each), 2 witches earring, duo bares neck, and treebelt.  Earrings and treebelt farmed myself.  Its super easy to catch up right now, I don't really understand why.  I had terrible gear before +6 armor etc but just keep grinding or whatever it is to make money then buy already enchanted gear (preferably ultimate +15) at cheap 11-16m and then u dig desert for shards and there u go free Pri, duo or tri if ur lucky.

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Posted

There's a catch 22 above level 50, now. You can't get the gear you need to farm the silver you need to buy the gear you need to advance. Not that there's any +15 gear being auctioned, anyway. It's all PRI and DUO which just puts it further out of reach.

I'm not sure what server you are playing on but Aulstin's market is overflowing with +15 gear, and all of it is below 15kk per piece. 

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Posted (edited)

I quit 4 months ago because of gear, It was pain in the butt and as a breeder (back then) money came extremely slow.

I been playing for about 2 weeks now, and I am at PRI full grunil armor, duo Main PRI offhand, 2 quest rings (7ap each), 2 witches earring, duo bares neck, and treebelt.  Earrings and treebelt farmed myself.  Its super easy to catch up right now, I don't really understand why.  I had terrible gear before +6 armor etc but just keep grinding or whatever it is to make money then buy already enchanted gear (preferably ultimate +15) at cheap 11-16m and then u dig desert for shards and there u go free Pri, duo or tri if ur lucky.

Oh boy, you must be out of your mind if you think you are 'catching up'.  Do you even know how much it cost to even make ONE tet attempt?  The cost to get to a tri (200-400mi)... and do you know how far away you are from a Tri? LOL

Edited by YajStylez

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Posted

After losing 2 months of "work" to RNG just to be at the start again I stopped caring. There are maybe people who think banging your head repeatedly against the brick wall until one of them breaks is fun or even commendable. I dont. There are other ways to play and have fun for me, not just constant grind and struggle to get gear.

I can only say the game that cant attract and retain new players is not going to last very long. Take it as you will.

Agree.

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Posted (edited)

Oh boy, you must be out of your mind if you think you are 'catching up'.  Do you even know how much it cost to even make ONE tet attempt?  The cost to get to a tri (200-400mi)... and do you know how far away you are from a Tri? LOL

You should focus on getting boss armor and tri it before thinking of tet... All that guys trying to tet weapno first are idiots... Tet give you only little edge, full tri is more then enough for competitive pvp... Tri bheg/muskan are a lot more important then tet weapon...

Also tri on liverto/offhand is easy, only kzarka/boss armor is little harder cause of mems cost, but still you not need to be no lifer to make tri on kzarka/bheg and that two items are enough for everyone to pvp and only like 0,1% players are out of your reach... Even casual can make tri on weapon/bheg in like 1,2 months max and only problem is to actually get them....

Edited by Dorsai85
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Posted

+15 is enough for pvp. Most players are so bad that their duo/tri wont help em. Only scrubs go over +15 enchants and use ogre rings

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Posted

I quit 4 months ago because of gear, It was pain in the butt and as a breeder (back then) money came extremely slow.

I been playing for about 2 weeks now, and I am at PRI full grunil armor, duo Main PRI offhand, 2 quest rings (7ap each), 2 witches earring, duo bares neck, and treebelt.  Earrings and treebelt farmed myself.  Its super easy to catch up right now, I don't really understand why.  I had terrible gear before +6 armor etc but just keep grinding or whatever it is to make money then buy already enchanted gear (preferably ultimate +15) at cheap 11-16m and then u dig desert for shards and there u go free Pri, duo or tri if ur lucky.

That is not catching up. Your gear is still bad compared to what most others have.

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Posted (edited)

If this is a problem, how can it be solved, or can it be solved or is this a fatal flaw in the game.

Back in July there was a thread asking what people thought the game could do to make a comeback. A lot of people made suggestions, including myself. The gear gap was one of the things that I posted about in my suggestion...

Junk the current RNG gear treadmill, junk the sale of high gear, and instead make players earn their gear rather than just get lucky. Add a damage threshold to bosses to improve the distribution of loot.

  • Bosses receive a damage threshold that varies from class to class. In order to get loot of a certain type from the boss, you must do enough damage to it to reach the threshold required by your class. There are multiple ranks to the threshold, with better rewards the higher the rank.
  • Rather than RNG weapons and gear dropping from difficult bosses, these bosses will instead drop ingredients that get used by crafters to create the desired gear. In order to get these ingredients you have to reach the required damage threshold to acquire the ingredient(s) that threshold grants.
  • This creates a smoother method of acquiring gear where players will work towards improving their gear so that they can reach the next threshold necessary to get the ingredients for the next rank of gear. It's gradual progression where you always have a way of telling how far or close you are, and it rewards your effort - rather than your luck.
  • Because gear now needs to be acquired through effort it can no longer be sold (nor can the ingredients you acquire - though there is a way for other crafters to utilize your own). However, what can be sold are upgrades. Crafters are able to use obsolete ingredients to upgrade your gear for you. This does not use RNG, but instead has a set amount required. This way even if you don't reach the next threshold for the next tier of gear, you can still use what you can earn to improve your equipment.

 

Basically if you've ever played the Monster Hunter games, that's more along the lines of how you'd gear up. Work your way up through the tiers, improving your damage/defense along the way so you can reach the better tiers.

Full version:

  1. Introduce multiple guild types like was originally planned for the game.
    • Adventurer guilds would be like what we currently have. They are the standard unfocused guild. Members receive a bonus for completing exploration/kill quests.
    • Merchant guilds would be for crafter-types. Members would get to avoid the 30% marketplace tax, but still pay the 5% regional tax.
    • Criminal guilds would be for pirates, bandits, PK's etc. They would be perma-red, but escape the XP/crystal penalties from being red, and have access to the criminal underworld (hideouts to sell/bank, housing to get workers, etc). Additionally, they can steal trade packs.
       
  2. Make the ingame factions matter with territory control, dynamic skirmishes, and quests for the faction.
    • Nodes which connect to one or more node belonging to opposing factions will have dynamic skirmishes break out between AI of the opposing factions. The victor of these skirmishes will gain control of the node until the next skirmish occurs. These are not scheduled like the current node wars, but instead take place randomly within a set period of time. These are unique to the particular channel, rather than server-wide.
    • During these skirmishes you will see soldiers from the opposing factions attacking one another, with a tug-o-war meter showing what side is currently winning.
    • Once the skirmish is over, that node switches to being under control of the faction that won. Members of that faction enjoy a bonus to XP and loot at this node for the duration, which leads to...
       
  3. Both guilds and guildless players could swear fealty to the regions, aligning themselves with it.
    • When you align with the faction you receive a beginning rank, outfit, and salary. By completing tasks for the faction, and by helping them to win victory in the skirmishes, you can increase in rank, get newer outfits, and a higher salary.
    • Wearing the outfit of your faction makes you open to PvP from members of the opposing factions. In order to participate in the skirmishes you must be wearing the outfit. For every enemy AI and player you kill you will receive bonus silver and progress towards your next rank. You won't experience any karma penalties for killing someone in the opposing faction outfit.
    • Adventure guilds are the standard foot soldiers. They go out and defeat monsters for the faction, fight in skirmishes, and explore into enemy-controlled nodes.
    • Merchant guilds also receive a kind of rank, outfit, and salary, but their job is to supply the faction, not fight for it. They will have to create gear, collect materials, transfer supplies from place to place, help build, make repairs, etc.
    • Criminal guilds don't swear fealty to cities, but instead to the criminal underworld bosses. The criminal faction will have node control and dynamic skirmishes just like the cities sprouting out from crime-heavy nodes like Bandit's Den Byway.
       
  4. Bring in a functional bounty hunting and prison system.
    • Criminal players (and criminal guilds) will have a ranking based on their notoriety. Notoriety is increased by PKing, stealing packs, destroying ships, killing horses, etc. While notoriety is used to determine who the baddest of the baddest are, it's not something you necessarily want to accumulate.
    • Bounty hunting quests will be offered for players with low karma, as well as for players belonging to the criminal faction. Upon taking the quest the player's current node location will appear on your overland map. You'll have to track them down within the node itself. If you are killed by the player you lose the quest, and if they are a criminal they will become more notorious.
    • Notorious targets become the targets of bigger bounty hunts. When they reach the first rank, the bounty becomes offered to more than one player. At the second rank, their bounty becomes offered to more than one player, as well as a party quest. At the third and final rank, any number of players can take them on as their bounty target, as well as any number of groups. Each incremental notoriety level gives a bonus bounty amount.
    • Once a player has been killed by a bounty hunter they are shipped off to prison. This occurs whether they had a bounty for being low karma, or for being a criminal.
    • The prison sentence duration is determined by karma level, and further increased by notoriety.
    • If a player wishes to avoid prison they have to use the criminal underworld to pay off their bounty, plus a fee for the service. This would be a considerable cost, and is only available to criminal faction players (not low karma regular players).
    • In prison you will be confined without any ability to interact with the outside world beyond guildchat or private messages (so no global channels). You can do jobs in the prison to decrease your sentence, like cleaning, breaking rocks, washing laundry, helping to build etc. These activities will give you very minor XP and advancement towards stats like Breath, Strength, and perhaps minor crafting etc. The point is to make prison a mundane thing, but not so unenjoyable that you would quit.
    • You can break out of prison with some effort, but breaking out resets your sentence and tacks on a breakout penalty. You'll also get a bounty on you. Getting sent back to prison with a breakout penalty moves you to a higher security prison that is considerably more difficult to break out of.
       
  5. Junk the current RNG gear treadmill, junk the sale of high gear, and instead make players earn their gear rather than just get lucky. Add a damage threshold to bosses to improve the distribution of loot.
    • Bosses receive a damage threshold that varies from class to class. In order to get loot of a certain type from the boss, you must do enough damage to it to reach the threshold required by your class. There are multiple ranks to the threshold, with better rewards the higher the rank.
    • Rather than RNG weapons and gear dropping from difficult bosses, these bosses will instead drop ingredients that get used by crafters to create the desired gear. In order to get these ingredients you have to reach the required damage threshold to acquire the ingredient(s) that threshold grants.
    • This creates a smoother method of acquiring gear where players will work towards improving their gear so that they can reach the next threshold necessary to get the ingredients for the next rank of gear. It's gradual progression where you always have a way of telling how far or close you are, and it rewards your effort - rather than your luck.
    • Because gear now needs to be acquired through effort it can no longer be sold (nor can the ingredients you acquire - though there is a way for other crafters to utilize your own). However, what can be sold are upgrades. Crafters are able to use obsolete ingredients to upgrade your gear for you. This does not use RNG, but instead has a set amount required. This way even if you don't reach the next threshold for the next tier of gear, you can still use what you can earn to improve your equipment.
Edited by scau
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Posted

Back in July there was a thread asking what people thought the game could do to make a comeback. A lot of people made suggestions, including myself. The gear gap was one of the things that I posted about in my suggestion...

Junk the current RNG gear treadmill, junk the sale of high gear, and instead make players earn their gear rather than just get lucky. Add a damage threshold to bosses to improve the distribution of loot.

  • Bosses receive a damage threshold that varies from class to class. In order to get loot of a certain type from the boss, you must do enough damage to it to reach the threshold required by your class. There are multiple ranks to the threshold, with better rewards the higher the rank.
  • Rather than RNG weapons and gear dropping from difficult bosses, these bosses will instead drop ingredients that get used by crafters to create the desired gear. In order to get these ingredients you have to reach the required damage threshold to acquire the ingredient(s) that threshold grants.
  • This creates a smoother method of acquiring gear where players will work towards improving their gear so that they can reach the next threshold necessary to get the ingredients for the next rank of gear. It's gradual progression where you always have a way of telling how far or close you are, and it rewards your effort - rather than your luck.
  • Because gear now needs to be acquired through effort it can no longer be sold (nor can the ingredients you acquire - though there is a way for other crafters to utilize your own). However, what can be sold are upgrades. Crafters are able to use obsolete ingredients to upgrade your gear for you. This does not use RNG, but instead has a set amount required. This way even if you don't reach the next threshold for the next tier of gear, you can still use what you can earn to improve your equipment.

Full version:

Hidden Content

Too radical of a change this late in the games dev cycle.

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