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99 posts in this topic

Posted

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f7AC5U1hI82hnonRYx2IumJkvhOKb7gllvYhe1Lbb4Y/edit#

None of that number is evasion. Evasion, like accuracy is a seperate stat.

For denoted evaion values it is relatively easy. However for those few items that give hidden evasion, tests need to be done to determine the value oer enchant.

Oh poop. Here we go again Onichan. Look man i enjoy that you are participating in this thread but i've explained and proven to you three times now that DP is just the summation of a players total dmg reduction and Evasion.

Small Tangent: Ap and DP are not stats that go into a Damage formula somewhere in this game they are just Numbers that represent in a generic way a players overall offensive and defensive abilities.

Linking me a google document about accuracy isn't going support the case that Evasion is a seperate stat in a discussion about DP. Futhuremore the google docuement isn't even needed as Evasion being "in" and "as" DP itself is LITERALLY stated in the game on a multitude of items. I hope this position makes you understand why i keep getting annoyed by this position you keep taking.

Listen im going to link you a bunch of items from the game right NOW and i want you to use your eyes man. use them. Look.

http://bddatabase.net/us/item/52803/#0|undefined
Look at that item, observe What happens to the DP as you "Plus" it up. Compare it to the Item description.

http://bddatabase.net/us/item/52804/
Another example except this time with only Evasion. Plus it up, looks what happening.

http://bddatabase.net/us/item/10124/
Plus that guy up... looks whats happening to the DP.

Alright this next example is more subtle but hopefully you've understood by now.
http://bddatabase.net/us/item/10936/
http://bddatabase.net/us/item/10816/
http://bddatabase.net/us/item/11016/
- Why do you think the Taritas shoes start off as the same DP as Muskans?  If you answered because of the extra evasion they have you would be correct! ding ding.. 
Ever wonder why muskan shoes at +15 have SO much more DP than any ther piece of armor? If you answered because the enhancement Evasion is being added to the DP you would be correct! ding ding..

https://media3.giphy.com/media/KL7I5MXrcvezC/200_s.gif

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Posted (edited)

im sorry i dont agree at all on evasion , you know that the fact that plus+ up items with evasion giving dp make sence to make it the same, but i could be dobble dipping and getting the evasion hidden and only show Dp and on some it shows both,

 

i have tested krea dagger vs parry dagger and the parry dagger block/immune alot more attacks and CC than krea, so you would say thats just bc there 3+ = 2 more evasion/dp total on parry dagger?

 

i encurage you to test this out your-self, take a witch and have 15+ daggers and around +300Dp , then have a tamer or valk CC you and then watch what happens.

and if its just a summary of dr and evasion, then what items have evasion and what items have dr when theres no evasion on enchant on them

 

now there could be even more hidden stats on parry dagger, im just speaking my mind here.

Edited by bdoforum

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Posted

im sorry i dont agree at all on evasion , you know that the fact that plus+ up items with evasion giving dp make sence to make it the same, but i could be dobble dipping and getting the evasion hidden and only show Dp and on some it shows both,

 

i have tested krea dagger vs parry dagger and the parry dagger block/immune alot more attacks and CC than krea, so you would say thats just bc there 3+ = 2 more evasion/dp total on parry dagger?

 

i encurage you to test this out your-self, take a witch and have 15+ daggers and around +300Dp , then have a tamer or valk CC you and then watch what happens.

and if its just a summary of dr and evasion, then what items have evasion and what items have dr when theres no evasion on enchant on them

 

now there could be even more hidden stats on parry dagger, im just speaking my mind here.

Block/Immune popups don't have anything to do with evasion... Those happen when you block an attack or resist a CC, whereas if the attack misses then nothing pops up at all, it just does nothing. So if that's what you mean, then what you're claiming here is that Parrying has some hidden resists, which I'd be pretty skeptical of.

Also, the base 3 Eva and 1 DR on Parrying is included in the DP, so in fact Parrying appears to have less total DP than Krea. But I personally haven't done any testing of the two, so I can't say whether Parrying has any sort of hidden stats, or if Krea for some reason gives a portion of DR on enchant instead of full Eva like it says.

As for the question of what gives Eva and how much when it's not specified on the item, well, that's an unanswered question. It seems that most armors at least give some Eva on enchant, but some sets are "known" to be more or less evasion-focused. As far as I'm aware though, nobody has ever done any specific testing to find the ratio of DR:Eva that each set has.

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Posted

I'd like to know where the OP got all of their "accuracy" and "evasion" information from.

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Posted (edited)

Block/Immune popups don't have anything to do with evasion... Those happen when you block an attack or resist a CC, whereas if the attack misses then nothing pops up at all, it just does nothing. So if that's what you mean, then what you're claiming here is that Parrying has some hidden resists, which I'd be pretty skeptical of.

Also, the base 3 Eva and 1 DR on Parrying is included in the DP, so in fact Parrying appears to have less total DP than Krea. But I personally haven't done any testing of the two, so I can't say whether Parrying has any sort of hidden stats, or if Krea for some reason gives a portion of DR on enchant instead of full Eva like it says.

As for the question of what gives Eva and how much when it's not specified on the item, well, that's an unanswered question. It seems that most armors at least give some Eva on enchant, but some sets are "known" to be more or less evasion-focused. As far as I'm aware though, nobody has ever done any specific testing to find the ratio of DR:Eva that each set has.

i think you missunderstood totaly what im saying first of this wasent a post targeting you, but op.so im more interrested in what he have to say about this

2nd i said that parry dagger resist/immune alot more attacks than krea dagger, they have allmost same DP only 2 more evasion on parry dagger, and this would not be the reson it parrys alotmore attacks and CC.  i have tested this myself, and this was targeting the Dp is just evasion and dr total claim from op with my post

 

i think you need to read my full post again zephan

Edited by bdoforum

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Posted

i think you missunderstood totaly what im saying first of this wasent a post targeting you, but op.so im more interrested in what he have to say about this

2nd i said that parry dagger resist/immune alot more attacks than krea dagger, they have allmost same DP only 2 more evasion on parry dagger, and this would not be the reson it parrys alotmore attacks and CC.  i have tested this myself, and this was targeting the Dp is just evasion and dr total claim from op with my post

 

i think you need to read my full post again zephan

No, I understood what you were saying. The idea that DP is DR + Eva is not something that @remilafo came up with himself, it's something that has been a very strong theory for a long time now. As I said, it's possible that Parrying has extra hidden stats or that Krea's DP is partially DR which would mean it has less Eva as a result (like, for example, 16 DR + 16 Eva instead of 32 Eva). It's something that bears some testing to find out for sure, but I was just giving some possible explanations in the mean time, as DP = DR + Eva is almost a fact at this point with how many items support it.

And I again ask what you mean by "block/immune" and "resist/immune". Are you saying that you actually get a lot more IMMUNE popups which mean the hit connected but the CC was resisted, or do you just mean a lot more hits miss in general (with no popup) and as a result you don't get CC'ed as much? Because, again, the IMMUNE popup has nothing to do with DP at all, it has to do with your resistances, so it's something that should be made clear to understand your claim.

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Posted

im sorry i dont agree at all on evasion , you know that the fact that plus+ up items with evasion giving dp make sence to make it the same, but i could be dobble dipping and getting the evasion hidden and only show Dp and on some it shows both,

Nope, this one is not debatable. It one one of the very first things the community tested back in March as it was visible right from the game. There is no double dipping.
DP = Evasion + Damage Reduction
And the dmg reduction or/and evasion is NOT hidden from the item and it shows up on your inventory screen. Hidden evasion, DP or Dmg Reduction only happen from Crystals and Set bonuses like the Robaca sec.

As for the question of what gives Eva and how much when it's not specified on the item, well, that's an unanswered question. It seems that most armors at least give some Eva on enchant, but some sets are "known" to be more or less evasion-focused. As far as I'm aware though, nobody has ever done any specific testing to find the ratio of DR:Eva that each set has.

Good response to the previous guy. 

As for your unanswered Question, it not as unanswered as you think. We do know whether the DP on some items are DR or Eva. Ex. Red coral DP is Evasion, Shrine guardian token is DR..   why is it like this is the better question.

As for Armors, Shoes seem to be ALL EVASION regardless of Set.  Chest pieces seem to be ALL DR.. Im still working out for head and gloves.

I'd like to know where the OP got all of their "accuracy" and "evasion" information from.

Reddit, these forums and about 30hrs of my own testing with other fellow nerd min/max people that need to know.

Sadly Accuracy has come under debate again, Seems some numbers have been adjusted since awakenings. For example Bheg gloves used to be +15 acc but now they are testing for only about 10acc.  Kzarka seems to have about 10 more accuracy over liverto now when it used to be only 3. Thankfully accuracy offhands like the bronze dagger and equivalents have remained constant as have accessories, crystal etc.

So just FYI it's not a total mystery but it's true we don't know all the details YET!

2nd i said that parry dagger resist/immune alot more attacks than krea dagger, they have allmost same DP only 2 more evasion on parry dagger, and this would not be the reson it parrys alotmore attacks and CC.  i have tested this myself, and this was targeting the Dp is just evasion and dr total claim from op with my post

Thats very close, too close imo to rely on subjective impressions. Got any hard data? 

Personally i want what you are saying regarding the parry dagger to be true, it would give some justification to it's existence. Cause right now the stats plainly say that krea is the better choice, mainly cause of the two crystal slots.

No, I understood what you were saying. The idea that DP is DR + Eva is not something that @remilafo came up with himself, it's something that has been a very strong theory for a long time now. As I said, it's possible that Parrying has extra hidden stats or that Krea's DP is partially DR which would mean it has less Eva as a result (like, for example, 16 DR + 16 Eva instead of 32 Eva). It's something that bears some testing to find out for sure, but I was just giving some possible explanations in the mean time, as DP = DR + Eva is almost a fact at this point with how many items support it.

And I again ask what you mean by "block/immune" and "resist/immune". Are you saying that you actually get a lot more IMMUNE popups which mean the hit connected but the CC was resisted, or do you just mean a lot more hits miss in general (with no popup) and as a result you don't get CC'ed as much? Because, again, the IMMUNE popup has nothing to do with DP at all, it has to do with your resistances, so it's something that should be made clear to understand your claim.

yeah pretty much..

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Posted (edited)

how do you know whats what on items when its not writen on the item, you said red coral evasion and shrine DR how did you find this out and can you list all the rings and other Dp jewlery where you know whats what, as i wanna test this out,

Edited by bdoforum

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Posted (edited)

how do you know whats what on items when its not writen on the item, you said red coral evasion and shrine DR how did you find this out and can you list all the rings and other Dp jewlery where you know whats what, as i wanna test this out,

Those two discoveries weren't me. The shrine guardian was tested by a korean before our game even released and the red coral was tested by a RU player before we even got pirates as well. And I don't REALLY know if what they say is really true but the testing method was okay and i trust the curiosity of the player base with a bit of scrutiny naturally.

To address your concern, beyond those two accessories i have not come across any other claims reliable or not regarding the nature of the DP on a specific item; And i really don't care to either because the original problem remains.

This is what we know..
- DP = Eva + Dmg. Reduc
- Level difference between players affects accuracy and Evasion

This is what we don't know or are unclear about..
- EXACTLY how much accuracy certain items have, like Mainhand weapons?, At least we have a good grasp on off-hands and Bheg gloves.
- EXACTLY how much impact each level difference between players make?
- If an item gives 100DP how much is Dmg. Reduc and how much is Eva? How would you test this?

Because of these uncertainty's it's far too much frustrating to even try discovering DP specifics for individual accessories. I mean you could try, i wish you luck.  IMO if you are into testing your time would be better served by trying to answer one of the questions i wrote above.

I am currently and have been testing those above questions but only half-effort it because despite all this knowledge being cool and fascinating it doesn't change anything since there are very few actual gear choices in this game. Examples....

Mainhand weapon progression:  Bares/Krea/Yuria --> Liverto --> Kzarka
Offhand weapon progression: AP/ACC/EVA offhand --> Kutum or Nouver (when we get it, if ever!)

and for most people armor goes from Grunil to Boss gear...  The point is pretty everyone runs the same gear progression because there isn't diverse choices. Kzarka, bhegs, muskans etc.. are always the best they have no competitors. 

Peace.. 

Xerise

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 3rd 2016

So i ran a ton of tests tonight for accuracy only and i want to make an Official statement for my testing tonight reveals are the current accuracy numbers for common gear. My testing methodology was to do 100 attacks and compare hit rates between weapons. These were the results.

+15 Ultimate Yuria and +15 Ultimate Bares.... have about +15 additional Accuracy over base Green Yuria or Base Green Bares
+15 Ultimate Krea mainhand weapon has about +3 more accuracy compared to +15 Ultimate Yuria/Bares..
+15 Liverto has about +10 additional accuracy over +15 Ultimate Yuria/Bares
Tri Kzarka has about +10 additional accuracy over Tri Liverto
Tri Bheg and +15 Bheg gloves both seems to provide an additional +10 Accuracy
Accuracy Offhand (Ultimate Bronze Dagger) provides about +20 Accuracy at both +15 and Tri.
Tri Kutum Dagger is weird. Provided about +6 accuracy when paired with Yuria, No accuracy when paired with Liverto, and provided -5 accuracy with Kzarka.. WTF
Going Pri, Duo, Tri Etc. seems to have No impact on additional accuracy. +15 Liverto and Tri Liverto performed the same, as did +15 Yuria and Tri Yuria.

Thoughts:
- It was nice that i was able to confirm that suspicion going around about PRI, DUO etc level of enchantment being "Different" than "normal" +1 - +15 Enchanting.
- Kutum WTF.. :S
- My results shares the same numbers as other testers, so yay for consistency.
- Krea mainhand and offhand set are BIS for green weaponry, more people should use that. B|

Edited by remilafo

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Posted

Those two discoveries weren't me. The shrine guardian was tested by a korean before our game even released and the red coral was tested by a RU player before we even got pirates as well. And I don't REALLY know if what they say is really true but the testing method was okay and i trust the curiosity of the player base with a bit of scrutiny naturally.

To address your concern, beyond those two accessories i have not come across any other claims reliable or not regarding the nature of the DP on a specific item; And i really don't care to either because the original problem remains.

This is what we know..
- DP = Eva + Dmg. Reduc
- Level difference between players affects accuracy and Evasion

This is what we don't know or are unclear about..
- EXACTLY how much accuracy certain items have, like Mainhand weapons?, At least we have a good grasp on off-hands and Bheg gloves.
- EXACTLY how much impact each level difference between players make?
- If an item gives 100DP how much is Dmg. Reduc and how much is Eva? How would you test this?

Because of these uncertainty's it's far too much frustrating to even try discovering DP specifics for individual accessories. I mean you could try, i wish you luck.  IMO if you are into testing your time would be better served by trying to answer one of the questions i wrote above.

I am currently and have been testing those above questions but only half-effort it because despite all this knowledge being cool and fascinating it doesn't change anything since there are very few actual gear choices in this game. Examples....

Mainhand weapon progression:  Bares/Krea/Yuria --> Liverto --> Kzarka
Offhand weapon progression: AP/ACC/EVA offhand --> Kutum or Nouver (when we get it, if ever!)

and for most people armor goes from Grunil to Boss gear...  The point is pretty everyone runs the same gear progression because there isn't diverse choices. Kzarka, bhegs, muskans etc.. are always the best they have no competitors. 

Peace.. 

Xerise

Question,IS the Dp from the rosar dagger,krea dagger all damage reduction and only parrying dagger is eva?

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Posted

Question,IS the Dp from the rosar dagger,krea dagger all damage reduction and only parrying dagger is eva?

No, the dp on all those items is ALL evasion.

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Posted (edited)

No, the dp on all those items is ALL evasion.

exellent thanks,Switched to rosar dagger+ staff combo to test.been pleased with the result so far

Edited by LinaCrysta

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Posted (edited)

No, the dp on all those items is ALL evasion.

Did you test that, or just going by the text on the items?

Also;

Tri Kutum Dagger is weird. Provided about +6 accuracy when paired with Yuria, No accuracy when paired with Liverto, and provided -5 accuracy with Kzarka.. WTF

Your sample size was 100? That would be low enough to explain the variation, imo, when dealing with such small amounts. Certainly could be bugged (and it wouldn't be surprising given that apparently using no off-hand gives more Acc than using a non-Acc off-hand), but it would require a bigger test to say for sure imo.

Edited by Zephan

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Posted

Did you test that, or just going by the text on the items?

Also;

Your sample size was 100? That would be low enough to explain the variation, imo, when dealing with such small amounts. Certainly could be bugged (and it wouldn't be surprising given that apparently using no off-hand gives more Acc than using a non-Acc off-hand), but it would require a bigger test to say for sure imo.

Not all of them but Krea, bronze dagger and other guildmates did testing on warrior shields. The trend is hard to ignore and since we know that eva and DR show up as dp, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

Yes the sample size is 100, honestly this whole accuracy thing is feeling like a dead horse topic. im tired of people being skeptical when the data is right in front of your faces, im not the only that has come to these numbers. If you don't like it you have options. 1. Do your own test; 2. Confirm with other sources; 3. Ignore this data not like it really changes anything in terms of BIS gear.

man, it is what it is.. At best this knowledge can only give you the satisfaction of knowing that you've made a more informed and efficient choice about your gear. If you are rocking full boss equipment from head to toe then all of this doesn't matter because that gear has no competitors. 

I played ESO before this game and one thing that ESO was VERY good at was presently a FREAKEN myriad of choices when it can to your build and gear, there was no Ideal BIS gear like this game. I hope BDO comes out with actual gear choices in the future.

 

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Posted (edited)

Not all of them but Krea, bronze dagger and other guildmates did testing on warrior shields. The trend is hard to ignore and since we know that eva and DR show up as dp, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

 I agree, I only asked because of @bdoforum's claims about Parrying vis-à-vis Krea.

 

Yes the sample size is 100, honestly this whole accuracy thing is feeling like a dead horse topic. im tired of people being skeptical when the data is right in front of your faces, im not the only that has come to these numbers. If you don't like it you have options. 1. Do your own test; 2. Confirm with other sources; 3. Ignore this data not like it really changes anything in terms of BIS gear.

man, it is what it is.. At best this knowledge can only give you the satisfaction of knowing that you've made a more informed and efficient choice about your gear. If you are rocking full boss equipment from head to toe then all of this doesn't matter because that gear has no competitors. 

I played ESO before this game and one thing that ESO was VERY good at was presently a FREAKEN myriad of choices when it can to your build and gear, there was no Ideal BIS gear like this game. I hope BDO comes out with actual gear choices in the future.

I don't really understand what this has to do with my post... What skepticism are you referring to? All I said was that -5~+6 is well within the margin of error in a sample size of 100, I never expressed any doubt at the numbers given. That aside, I don't even have the funds for a decent Liverto to test with, you think I can get my hands on a decent Kutum? Not everyone has the means to test this and there's no other (reliable) data available that I can find, so I do what I can to help interpret and theorize instead.

And while I agree in general about the need for variety, I'd say that you're mistaken in terms of boss gear being the only option in the case of off-hands; Acc off-hands are honestly still the best offensive off-hands in the game in PvP, and the green defensive off-hands are noticeably better at defense than Kutum. So in all we have: Acc for PvP offense, Krea, Rosar or HP for defense, Kutum for mixed offense/defense, Nouver for PvE offense/resists. That's hardly "no options."

Edited by Zephan
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Posted

I don't really understand what this has to do with my post... What skepticism are you referring to? All I said was that -5~+6 is well within the margin of error in a sample size of 100, I never expressed any doubt at the numbers given. That aside, I don't even have the funds for a decent Liverto to test with, you think I can get my hands on a decent Kutum? Not everyone has the means to test this and there's no other (reliable) data available that I can find, so I do what I can to help interpret and theorize instead.

And while I agree in general about the need for variety, I'd say that you're mistaken in terms of boss gear being the only option in the case of off-hands; Acc off-hands are honestly still the best offensive off-hands in the game in PvP, and the green defensive off-hands are noticeably better at defense than Kutum. So in all we have: Acc for PvP offense, Krea, Rosar or HP for defense, Kutum for mixed offense/defense, Nouver for PvE offense/resists. That's hardly "no options."

nothing really. sorry i was tired.

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Posted

@CM_Aethon Please persuade developers to release data regarding AP/DP/ACCURACY/EVASION so we can get rid of all this theory crafting.

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Posted

Hey,

do you have new informations about this part?

    As for Armors, Shoes seem to be ALL EVASION regardless of Set.  Chest pieces seem to be ALL DR.. Im still working out for head and gloves.

And is the tested armor +15 or +18 or the basic on?

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Posted

Hey,

do you have new informations about this part?

And is the tested armor +15 or +18 or the basic on?

All the tests i do are at base, +15 or TRI..  no one stays at the inbetween long enough.

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Posted (edited)

Do i understand it right that shoes dp at +15 or +18 is all evasion?

For example Grunil-shoes at +15 have 31 dp and this are 31 evasion?

 

The following test means that i need 0,75 acc to counter 1 evasion. The conclusion for me is to counter the Grunil-shoes i need 23,25 acc. Is that right?

-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H4M9vXw3xV0NwLO1xvqDMu-KVRY9CWLY5dccHt0oDOQ/edit#heading=h.s44548ln3mw

 

And do you had enough time to test the gloves and the head?

 

Ps: I excuse me for my bad english.

Edited by Kyni

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Posted

Do i understand it right that shoes dp at +15 or +18 is all evasion?

Yes

For example Grunil-shoes at +15 have 31 dp and this are 31 evasion?

yes

 

The following test means that i need 0,75 acc to counter 1 evasion. The conclusion for me is to counter the Grunil-shoes i need 23,25 acc. Is that right?

-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H4M9vXw3xV0NwLO1xvqDMu-KVRY9CWLY5dccHt0oDOQ/edit#heading=h.s44548ln3mw

If it was that simple.. sure... 

 

And do you had enough time to test the gloves and the head?

no I haven't and I might never. PA uses these hidden stats to balance gear which means any conclusions we come to might change later and second there is too few gear choices in this game to really bother or need to have exact precision and data; basically everyone's gear goes like this.

Bares/Yuria/Krea --> Liverto --> kzarka
Grunil --> Boss armor
Accuracy Offhand --> Kutum/Nouver

 

Ps: I excuse me for my bad english.

See above..

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Posted

You are right. The BIS is everytime the same.

Thank you for the tests.

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Posted

It's been ages since i updated this thing but the formulas are still good. The accuracy info has changed again though.

I also recently did some tests on DP states or stances.

 

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Posted (edited)

updated the tool to include latest information worked on by the community.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HBESIh_duqBQpl65si4ydFMRej8kNq0Zjplz6yf941Y/edit#gid=0

 

Tool updated with this most recent knowledge.

and

 http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/128316-awakening-ap-mainhand-ap-universal-ap-testing/&page=4#comment-1787469

Edited by remilafo

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