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Gameplay Analyzing of Awakenings: The Problem Of Releasing it over time vs. all at once:

34 posts in this topic

Posted

overtime =/= over time

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Posted

tldr plz?

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Posted

very interesting analysis indeed :)

 

such drastical shifts to ways of balancing indeed seems.... odd

at best

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Posted

A lot of pointless words, as the only point that matters are the sales from the cash shop.

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Posted


 

The thing is, everyone knows its stupid to release them one by one. No need to proof anything to anyone, kakao won't listen anyway ^>^

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Posted

its more to give an idea to people of the shift in pvp gameplay and why it is, since its really interesting that they decided to do such a drastic shift and it is the shift in the gameplay styles which is the main reason behind the balance issues we see ^^

Why any manager should care about the PvP or the PvE balance? He has targets for the revenue, but not for the PvP and the PvE.

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Posted

I'm sure most of the community is aware of the imbalance it creates but we have voiced this time and time again, they will simply not listen and at this point, i dont even think they care.

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Posted (edited)

they dont care about the games and players, as long as they milk hard because awakening outfit, all is fine for thoses guys.

So, yeah, unless that game end into better hands than kashkao, we are screwed.

 

Edited by woots

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Posted (edited)

All versions of the game, released the awakenings overtime. 

I don't know how the f* the you guys wanted this shit released all at once if not even the KR version has all the awakenings right now. Kakao made a mistake to try to release all at once and a lot of classes got -----ed up with the balancing chances made exclusive for the awakening (like the warrior). 

Thanks GOD Kakao saw this mistake and decided to release this shit progressively. 

If you want to cry about the overtime release of the awakening, cry to the pearl abyss not the kakao games, it's the pearl abyss who decided to release this content progressively on the "first and native" server, the KR version.

Edited by Inochii
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Posted

All versions of the game, released the awakenings overtime. 

I don't know how the f* the you guys wanted this shit released all at once if not even the KR version has all the awakenings right now. Kakao made a mistake to try to release all at once and a lot of classes got -----ed up with the balancing chances made exclusive for the awakening (like the warrior). 

Thanks GOD Kakao saw this mistake and decided to release this shit progressively. 

If you want to cry about the overtime release of the awakening, cry to the pearl abyss not the kakao games, it's the pearl abyss who decided to release this content progressively on the "first and native" server, the KR version.

Kakao's statement was that they would release all the awakening that were available in KR at once. They failed to do this. Also no, not all regions are getting them 1 at a time. RU got 4 at once, and then 2 about a week or so later. You don't fix poorly balanced classes by swinging the balance pendulum to the opposite side. I'm actually pretty sure it is Kakao that decided to release them one at a time since RU is not doing that, and Kakao had them all in the game at Gamescon, along with the translations and code already being in our version.

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Posted

A lot of pointless words, as the only point that matters are the sales from the cash shop.

though I like the analysis, and applaud the initiative to add something new to this discussion, Ikcen is right.its clear that this is only a money-driven decision.

What I dont get is why they dont release more costumes in the pearl shop. create more vanity items and people will buy them! I'm a sucker for costumes and know a lot more are.

This way you can actually make money, while not releasing divisive p2w-ish items.

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Posted

though I like the analysis, and applaud the initiative to add something new to this discussion, Ikcen is right.its clear that this is only a money-driven decision.

What I dont get is why they dont release more costumes in the pearl shop. create more vanity items and people will buy them! I'm a sucker for costumes and know a lot more are.

This way you can actually make money, while not releasing divisive p2w-ish items.

They do not want to inflate the value of the costumes. To release new costumes is the easiest change they can make. In fact even you can change the look of your character if you modify the textures files in your client. But only you will see the changes, as the clients of the other players will not have your customized images. So Kakao can release thousands of new costumes tomorrow, but it will be very hard to sell them for 50 euro each.

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Posted

 

Gameplay Analyzing of Awakenings: The Problem Of Releasing it over time vs. all at once:

 

Yes we had many of these and I promise I will focus on something “new”.

I have been wondering a bit about the awakenings and why they feel so “different” to fight and I think I got it analyzed.

 

It’s the gameplay shift in how PvP is supposed to be balanced and played: without awakenings the PvP combat is balanced on CC chaining, CC’ing defensively and recovering from CC+dmg, while avoidance of damage is important you are supposed to be CC’ed and take damage a lot then disengage/cc/created a break and recover to re-engage.

In practice this means that you CC someone and do a combo, your not suppose to kill them fast here but to bring them low. They are now supposed to get up and try to counter CC to created an opportunity to recover the dmg and reset the match or to counter CC and equal out the match by bringing the enemy low as well. The fight will go forward and backwards like this until someone gets 3+ CC chains in a row where the other failed to created distance, use defensive skills for recovery or CC for recovery.

 

This means a few things from the design perspective:

1.       You are supposed to be able to CC reasonably easily. You cannot allow people to be CC immune for very long.

a.       This is because you NEED that CC to created the forward and backwards momentum which creates this type of balanced gameplay.

2.       You are not supposed to do too much dmg, because you cannot be  allowed to easily kill in 1-2 combo’s

a.       Again this is to allow the feel of “forward and backwards momentum and combat”.

3.       Ability to escaped and disengage is essential to allow this feel of reset and continually of “forward and backwards momentum and combat”.

a.       Therefore it is far harder to hunt someone than getting hunted and it is almost impossible to lay down damage on someone who is just trying to “flee”.

 

These are tree critical and important factors of the combat, if ANY of them doesn’t apply the combat design and balance there around doesn’t work and it gives a feel of “instant kill/ lazy combat design”.

 

Now with awakenings the gameplay PvP focus of combat switch completely, almost 180degree’s switch I would say. With awakenings the focus is:

1.       Never getting CC’ed, fully avoiding CC.

a.       Which is why awakenings got extreme amount of super armour and all have shielding with no CD. This allows them to react and avoid almost any CC easily without much effort.

2.       If CC’ed you should die, or essentially be as good as dead.

a.       Because CC is so easily avoided and that shielding removes so much damage while making you CC immune (except grabs), your damage need to be extremely high so you 1-2 chain kill people because if they can get up its too easy to avoid getting CC’ed and it garantees full recovery.

3.       You cannot easily disengage/re-engage.

a.       Escaping from an Awakening, with awakening is far harder because you are not supposed to be able to easily get away to recover since its all about the blocking, CC immunity and trying to get that ONE CC to land.

4.       Because of all these damage applied is very important to easily hit constantly. Therefore everything is AOE’s, most 360degree CC, easy to land and almost impossible to avoid fully (but you got CC immunity and shielding so your not supposed to fully dodge it)

So in effect what does this mean?.

It means that with awakenings the gameplay is about reacting to the skills by insuring your CC immune and shielded from damage. You are constantly engaged in combat without the disengage breaks which happened without the awakenings. This brings in a more hectic gameplay which doesn’t allow for the same amount of thoughtful consideration, which isn’t needed either because of the AOE’s everything gets.

Keeping an eye on which skills are made is less important as well since Shielding pretty much is used against EVERY skill if you notice something is incoming.

 

IMHO awakenings dumbs down the gameplay of PvP. On the positive side, desync and other server issues isn’t as important since all you need to really be able to react to is “any attack skill” and you pretty much need the exact same reaction to all of them.

 

 

 

So what does this mean for the gameplay?.

Well it pretty much mean that CC’ing awakening classes is supposed to be as hard as killing someone with none awakening, because CC’ing awakenings are supposed to do just that (kill them or basically insure the victory).

Damage burst difference is HUGELY different because of this, since awakenings needs that burst to finish a CC’ed target or to break through the shielding.

Escaping is basically impossible vs. awakenings since you are not supposed to be able to disengage easily since the fights are constant and to the death (V is your only real option. Dogs gets super strong now because they can track targets even in V *cough bugged cough*).

 

So if you are following this far it should be obvious why awakenings are far superior in a fight vs. none awakenings. It is because their focus on combat is utterly different.

Where awakenings are supposed to 1-2 chain on EVERY CC they do, while none awakenings are supposed to get CC’ed Easily! == easily killed none awakening.

Where awakenings are supposed to NEVER get CC’ed because they should die when that happens, while none awakenings are supposed to hit 3+ CC chains in a ROW! To get a kill == none awakenings will never be able to kill awakening classes (unless they are so bad, and so under geared it’s not worth mentioning).

Where awakenings are supposed to be able to hunt down and do damage to fleeing targets because they are supposed to keep fighting, shielding and by that recover their HP, while none awakenings are supposed to be able to Flee/disengage to recover and re-engage in a reset fight == meaning awakenings can always stop this disengage and kill off none awakenings when they are supposed to be disengaging to recover.

 

So in short it is pretty easy to see where the true problem lies and why releasing awakenings splitted destroyes any gameplay balance that might be. Not only that but it also destroyes the positive feeling of skillfull PvP having any influence when awakenings fight none awakenings…

 

Personally I truly dislike this switch in focus from PA, I think it is a bullshit move to switch so much on how PvP gameplay is made/balanced/felt.

 

 

well worded an uses good examples clearly explaining the gameplay shift. U sir can have my like and this picture, hopefully u enjoy

42067.png

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Posted (edited)

Kakao's statement was that they would release all the awakening that were available in KR at once. They failed to do this. Also no, not all regions are getting them 1 at a time. RU got 4 at once, and then 2 about a week or so later. You don't fix poorly balanced classes by swinging the balance pendulum to the opposite side. I'm actually pretty sure it is Kakao that decided to release them one at a time since RU is not doing that, and Kakao had them all in the game at Gamescon, along with the translations and code already being in our version.

The Kakao release decision about the awakening was a stupid decision. Get the Peral Abyss patches with the main hand weapons nerfs because the awakening weapons without release the awaken weapon itself just broke some classes. Releasing the awaken with a 2 weeks interval was another fail, but better to still persist with the initial stupid ideia. 

The right thing to do was just release all awakenings available on the actual NA patch and done. 

The balance problems are a peral Abyss's problem, not Kakao's problem. o_o BtW

Edited by Inochii

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Posted

 

Gameplay Analyzing of Awakenings: The Problem Of Releasing it over time vs. all at once:

 

Yes we had many of these and I promise I will focus on something “new”.

I have been wondering a bit about the awakenings and why they feel so “different” to fight and I think I got it analyzed.

 

It’s the gameplay shift in how PvP is supposed to be balanced and played: without awakenings the PvP combat is balanced on CC chaining, CC’ing defensively and recovering from CC+dmg, while avoidance of damage is important you are supposed to be CC’ed and take damage a lot then disengage/cc/created a break and recover to re-engage.

In practice this means that you CC someone and do a combo, your not suppose to kill them fast here but to bring them low. They are now supposed to get up and try to counter CC to created an opportunity to recover the dmg and reset the match or to counter CC and equal out the match by bringing the enemy low as well. The fight will go forward and backwards like this until someone gets 3+ CC chains in a row where the other failed to created distance, use defensive skills for recovery or CC for recovery.

 

This means a few things from the design perspective:

1.       You are supposed to be able to CC reasonably easily. You cannot allow people to be CC immune for very long.

a.       This is because you NEED that CC to created the forward and backwards momentum which creates this type of balanced gameplay.

2.       You are not supposed to do too much dmg, because you cannot be  allowed to easily kill in 1-2 combo’s

a.       Again this is to allow the feel of “forward and backwards momentum and combat”.

3.       Ability to escaped and disengage is essential to allow this feel of reset and continually of “forward and backwards momentum and combat”.

a.       Therefore it is far harder to hunt someone than getting hunted and it is almost impossible to lay down damage on someone who is just trying to “flee”.

 

These are tree critical and important factors of the combat, if ANY of them doesn’t apply the combat design and balance there around doesn’t work and it gives a feel of “instant kill/ lazy combat design”.

 

Now with awakenings the gameplay PvP focus of combat switch completely, almost 180degree’s switch I would say. With awakenings the focus is:

1.       Never getting CC’ed, fully avoiding CC.

a.       Which is why awakenings got extreme amount of super armour and all have shielding with no CD. This allows them to react and avoid almost any CC easily without much effort.

2.       If CC’ed you should die, or essentially be as good as dead.

a.       Because CC is so easily avoided and that shielding removes so much damage while making you CC immune (except grabs), your damage need to be extremely high so you 1-2 chain kill people because if they can get up its too easy to avoid getting CC’ed and it garantees full recovery.

3.       You cannot easily disengage/re-engage.

a.       Escaping from an Awakening, with awakening is far harder because you are not supposed to be able to easily get away to recover since its all about the blocking, CC immunity and trying to get that ONE CC to land.

4.       Because of all these damage applied is very important to easily hit constantly. Therefore everything is AOE’s, most 360degree CC, easy to land and almost impossible to avoid fully (but you got CC immunity and shielding so your not supposed to fully dodge it)

So in effect what does this mean?.

It means that with awakenings the gameplay is about reacting to the skills by insuring your CC immune and shielded from damage. You are constantly engaged in combat without the disengage breaks which happened without the awakenings. This brings in a more hectic gameplay which doesn’t allow for the same amount of thoughtful consideration, which isn’t needed either because of the AOE’s everything gets.

Keeping an eye on which skills are made is less important as well since Shielding pretty much is used against EVERY skill if you notice something is incoming.

 

IMHO awakenings dumbs down the gameplay of PvP. On the positive side, desync and other server issues isn’t as important since all you need to really be able to react to is “any attack skill” and you pretty much need the exact same reaction to all of them.

 

 

 

So what does this mean for the gameplay?.

Well it pretty much mean that CC’ing awakening classes is supposed to be as hard as killing someone with none awakening, because CC’ing awakenings are supposed to do just that (kill them or basically insure the victory).

Damage burst difference is HUGELY different because of this, since awakenings needs that burst to finish a CC’ed target or to break through the shielding.

Escaping is basically impossible vs. awakenings since you are not supposed to be able to disengage easily since the fights are constant and to the death (V is your only real option. Dogs gets super strong now because they can track targets even in V *cough bugged cough*).

 

So if you are following this far it should be obvious why awakenings are far superior in a fight vs. none awakenings. It is because their focus on combat is utterly different.

Where awakenings are supposed to 1-2 chain on EVERY CC they do, while none awakenings are supposed to get CC’ed Easily! == easily killed none awakening.

Where awakenings are supposed to NEVER get CC’ed because they should die when that happens, while none awakenings are supposed to hit 3+ CC chains in a ROW! To get a kill == none awakenings will never be able to kill awakening classes (unless they are so bad, and so under geared it’s not worth mentioning).

Where awakenings are supposed to be able to hunt down and do damage to fleeing targets because they are supposed to keep fighting, shielding and by that recover their HP, while none awakenings are supposed to be able to Flee/disengage to recover and re-engage in a reset fight == meaning awakenings can always stop this disengage and kill off none awakenings when they are supposed to be disengaging to recover.

 

So in short it is pretty easy to see where the true problem lies and why releasing awakenings splitted destroyes any gameplay balance that might be. Not only that but it also destroyes the positive feeling of skillfull PvP having any influence when awakenings fight none awakenings…

 

Personally I truly dislike this switch in focus from PA, I think it is a bullshit move to switch so much on how PvP gameplay is made/balanced/felt.

 

 

Very interesting read and well put.props :D

It will take some time to get used to this new playstyle for sure.Lot more aggresive

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Posted

this is why they added the kutum secondary 

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Posted

its more to give an idea to people of the shift in pvp gameplay and why it is, since its really interesting that they decided to do such a drastic shift and it is the shift in the gameplay styles which is the main reason behind the balance issues we see ^^

These people wow....so close minded...they really dont understand at all the meaning of your explanation...i loved it it gave me an input on the PvP in this game that i hadnt thought of before. thnx it will help me

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Posted

for me the interest of the thread was more of the shift in pvp gameplay focus :)

i found it interesting and wanted to share it, also explain why it feels like the awakenings are so strong in comparison to none awakening... it is also interesting to understand why people use thier awakenings almost exclusively and not 50/50 switching.

Because the power of the awakened skills is much higher. Why you shall switch when all the awakened skills are better, faster, with more AOE, and with more additional effects?

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Posted

This would be okayish if they did the balancing they claimed to do for the not yet awakened classes. When was the last balancing patch? around 1 month ago? At this point it's obvious that it's just a marketing move. 

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Posted (edited)

Your analysis is sound. Your beakdown of pre-awakening PvP is 'light' on the complexity, but generally right.

One thing though... Your reasoning behind your balance ideals of pre-awakening pvp completely breaks down when you apply it to one particular pre-awakened class: Sorcs... The way this class has existed, with the toolset it has, throws out any kind of argument that Pearl Abyss ever cared about balance.

 

This class has been fundamentally overpowered since day one here. This is fundamentally accepted by the community and is essentially fine. It just makes your notion of balance sound ridiculous (sadly)...

Edited by Redwolf

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Posted

All versions of the game, released the awakenings overtime. 

I don't know how the f* the you guys wanted this shit released all at once if not even the KR version has all the awakenings right now. Kakao made a mistake to try to release all at once and a lot of classes got -----ed up with the balancing chances made exclusive for the awakening (like the warrior). 

Thanks GOD Kakao saw this mistake and decided to release this shit progressively. 

If you want to cry about the overtime release of the awakening, cry to the pearl abyss not the kakao games, it's the pearl abyss who decided to release this content progressively on the "first and native" server, the KR version.

They released the awakenings overtime because they had no other chance( awakenings weren't ready). That was also a mistake imo because it is very hard to balance pvp as stated by the op and that is a fact. It is definitely stupid to do something that was a mistake to begin with all over again while you have a chance to release'em all at once (awakenings are ready)and make the game playable for everyone.

 

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Posted

You guys really think game devs will go and recode all those patches which are already tested on korean servers just to cater to western players?

 

No they won't ... they will continue releasing it like they did on KR servers and there is absolutelly nothing you can do about it ... and same goes with all other future patches.

 

Case closed ... move on.

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Posted

You guys really think game devs will go and recode all those patches which are already tested on korean servers just to cater to western players?

 

No they won't ... they will continue releasing it like they did on KR servers and there is absolutelly nothing you can do about it ... and same goes with all other future patches.

 

Case closed ... move on.

In fact they already recode all the patches, at least because of the different languages :)

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Posted

ty :)

i do believe sorc's are within the balance spectra because of these: they are 1."reasonably easy to CC, especially when playing on the defence", 2."equally geared, if you just have 1 defensive item they will not be  able to 1 chain you"(you must expect that if you are a squicy class, without reliable iframes to evade, you will have to run some defensive stats vs. very offensive classes; just like not running grab resist vs. zerkers would be suicide, so is not running any defensive items vs. sorcs), 3. "they are designed to easily disengage to regain HP to re-engage if they lose an exchange".

i think that covers all the balancings of pre-awakenings. equally post awakenings they covers all the bases as well "extremely hard to CC, 1chains in 1CC, can easily do dmg while hunting people down" :)

 

what makes it feel so strong is that several classes NEED to run at least 1 defensive item to effectively fight it (else you simply take too much dmg on CC combo's) and that it is quite hard to hit in between its iframes, SA and Shield (not as hard as with War or tamer, but properly the third hardest class to do so on).

 

Tamer i would say is the class that kind of breaks it a bit: even when running Defensive items a tamer will be able to one chain you in 1CC at very low AP compared to every other class out there ^^. at least some tamers seem to do so, i will assume they're not cheating but just use their class better than others, in that case the tamer breaks that curve of balance a bit.

on the other hand tamer is also the 1 class that IF it ever gets CC'ed its dead within 1CC combo (equal geared) to more or less every other class ^^ so with this class it is set as kind of a super evasive glass cannon and therefore is still within the balance spectra, although not following the pre-awakening formula to its letter ^^

We'll just have to disagree here I think. Sorc's are "reasonably easy to CC, especially when playing on the defence". In isolation, sure. Compared to other classes? Not at all. Virtually unlimited access to the most powerful 'multi-directional' defensive skill in the game (sorc I-frame) with no cooldown, as well as having access significant block is not a class that's easy to CC or moresignificantly, apply damage to. More importantly it's much harder to punish a sorcs mistakes than any other class.

It's interesting that you mentioned tamer. If sorc I-frame was the same as Tamers it would be a different conversation. However we all know that the actual 'frames' in Tamer I-frame are a joke compared to the sorc version...There's a reason many experienced KR sorcs still stay in pre-awakened state a lot even after getting the Scythe (I mean weed cutter, lol..)...

It's still surprising that even post awakening sorcs still have no cool-down on the I-frame effect or the Dark Flame block. Even though classes like zerkers for example got there survivability skills nerfed with 5 second CD's to compensate for their new powers (which makes sense tbh).

Wonder why... Oh yeah, that's right. Pearl Abyss don't care about balance. ^_^

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Posted

they are actually recoding to remove awakenings from the patches we get.

they are doing extra work to make us get less content... chew on that for a second -_-

You realize that awakenings have been coded into our client for months right? it is simple a switch.

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