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Trade Issue Explained


32 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

For those who don't know the MMO industry well enough this is how it works in nearly every game.  There are 2 player bases and they conflict with each other.

BDO currently has Type A 

A legitimate player base who interest is in playing the game, obeying the rules, and has a stake in the future of the game.  This includes casuals, hardcores, pvpers, I_quit_every_week, and even the complainers,etc.

 

The majority of the players do not fit into Type B.

 

Type B -- Players who have very little concern for the game and no interest in it's future.  This may include exploiters, hackers, botters, dupers, gold sellers.  This very often contains players who wish to PVP for the sole purpose of griefing.  It may also include Players/Companies only interested in making personal profit of the illegal sale of intellectual property.

 

Don't be fooled by thinking Type B players are a small fraction of the community.  If you implement trading systems you will see spike in Type B players.  The Conversion Process -- Type A players can EASILY be converted into Type B players.  This is a continual process that happens in games as people begin to see cheating every day and either quit or cheat themselves.  This isn't an opinion it's YEARS OF OBSERVATION.  It happens, it's fact, you can watch it happen over and over again.

Over time Type B players will force out what used to be the community as Type A players given up and convert until there isn't much left of the game.  The fact that YOU CANT TRADE is one of the only things preventing a lot of this abuse.

Pearl/Daum isn't capable of stopping type B players in an environment built for them.  You can't even get Awakening Classes to be released at the same time or stop the pay2win shift, what makes anyone think they could handle Type B players.

 

Edited by 2Cents
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Posted (edited)

You forgot to add "Forum dwellers" to Type B.

By the way, trading is not the issue here, it's Kakao not giving a shit about taking some responsibility for monitoring people who are involved in shady currency selling practices and also the fact that Kakao wants to be THE only silver seller.

I think, you need to play more Non Free to Play MMO's to understand that this problem is endemic to these kind of Korean grind fests. 

Edited by Kasathar
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Posted (edited)

You forgot to add "Forum dwellers" to Type B.

By the way, trading is not the issue here, it's Kakao not giving a shit about taking some responsibility for monitoring people who are involved in shady currency selling practices and also the fact that Kakao wants to be THE only silver seller.

I think, you need to play more Non Free to Play MMO's to understand that this problem is endemic to these kind of Korean grind fests. 

Almost no company is involved enough and it's not feasible.  Even if you had the best intentions you would often lose for various reasons.

* Process -- You need a system of policing the game accurately and that takes AN ENORMOUS amount of work.  It's one thing to just say ban them, it's another to actually do it correctly.  You need proper evidence ON EVERY ACCOUNT you ban.  Banning legitimate customers creates a huge issue in publicity and has even led to battling law suits.  You need proper documentation and in many cases repeated evidence of cheating that is not always easy to obtain.

* Money is king -- There are companies DEDICATED to gold selling.  They update their software, they hire employees full time to do everything they can to extract money.  They are efficient, technical, and they get the job done.  You not fighting amateurs here, you may be up against people with years of experience in exploiting games.

* The Masses Cheat -- Once cheating gets out  it's all over.  You may find yourself fighting half your player base.

* Law suits -- You need to file legal (EXPENSIVE & TIME CONSUMING) law suits against companies supporting illegal servers or selling bot software.

Edited by 2Cents
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Posted

Almost no company is involved enough and it's not feasible.  Even if you had the best intentions you would often lose for various reasons.

* Process -- You need a system of policing the game accurately and that takes AN ENORMOUS amount of work.  It's one thing to just say ban them, it's another to actually do it correctly.  You need proper evidence ON EVERY ACCOUNT you ban.  Banning legitimate customers creates a huge issue in publicity and has even led to battling law suits.  You need proper documentation and in many cases repeated evidence of cheating that is not always easy to obtain.

* Money is king -- There are companies DEDICATED to gold selling.  They update their software, they hire employees full time to do everything they can to extract money.  They are efficient, technical, and they get the job done.  You not fighting amateurs here, you may be up against people with years of experience in exploiting games.

* The Masses Cheat -- Once cheating gets out  it's all over.  You may find yourself fighting half your player base.

* Law suits -- You need to file legal (EXPENSIVE & TIME CONSUMING) law suits against companies supporting illegal servers or selling bot software.

I have at least 3 examples of those doomsday scenarios not happening in long standing MMO's, that still, to this day deal with the issues proactively and efficiently, and to no ones surprise, they are subscription based (some have a free to play component, but only offer a bare bones experience so might as well pay the fee):

1- The big daddy: World of Warcraft.
2- The old one: Lord of The Rings Online
3- The young one: Final Fantasy XIV: A real Reborn
Here's a bonus one: Star Wars: The Old Republic.


Once again, I think you need to experience the bliss of playing a subscription based MMO to understand that these issues are endemic to free to play (even if they call themselves buy to play) Korean imports.

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Posted (edited)

I have at least 3 examples of those doomsday scenarios not happening in long standing MMO's, that still, to this day deal with the issues proactively and efficiently, and to no ones surprise, they are subscription based (some have a free to play component, but only offer a bare bones experience so might as well pay the fee):

1- The big daddy: World of Warcraft.
2- The old one: Lord of The Rings Online
3- The young one: Final Fantasy XIV: A real Reborn
Here's a bonus one: Star Wars: The Old Republic.


Once again, I think you need to experience the bliss of playing a subscription based MMO to understand that these issues are endemic to free to play (even if they call themselves buy to play) Korean imports.

You know this is on a regular basis right?

 

A "large number" of cheating World of Warcraft players were banned from the popular game for six months for using "bots" that allow players to automate some of their play, the popular game's maker announced this week.

Although Blizzard Entertainment's statement on the ban didn't include an exact figure, it's possible that more than 100,000 players are on an involuntary vacation from World of Warcraft.

 

World of Warcraft's developers regularly ban players for cheating. This week may have been their biggest disciplinary move yet, though. In one fell swoop, they banned over 100,000 players from their MMORPG. 

"We’ve recently taken action against a large number of World of Warcraft accounts that were found to be using third-party programs that automate gameplay, known as 'bots,'" Blizzard announced on their forums.

 

Well, it seems that Blizzard decided to hit Honorbuddy again with this current ban wave, not long after theDecember one. As usual, not everyone using the bot was banned, but it’s safe to say that a huge part of its customer base got caught, as reported on the buddy forum

 

Popular Twitch Streamer Reckful Permanently Banned from World of Warcraft [UPDATE: Sodah Also Banned]
 

 

In your face much?  How about 100,000 players is a "small" portion of their player base.  Except NOPE! 100,000+ is only A SINGLE INSTANCE of constant ban waves that DO NOT catch everyone cheating.

Edited by 2Cents
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Posted

2- The old one: Lord of The Rings Online

Having played quite a few Turbine games over the past decade, I will say the motto is cheat early and often. I am unsure how things are the past 2 years, but you could dupe items in 2 of their games by simply shutting down your Ethernet connect for a couple seconds while moving items for YEARS. Before and after their transition from subscriptions to a paywall/f2p hybrid years back. Heck, folks used a 3rd party launcher for their games because inhouse team couldn't code for crap after they sold out in 09 and changed teams(nice term for fired original crew). Remember pylotro?

Anyway, I don't think any turbine game is a good example for or against due to the ease of hacking client and the ease of duping which kind of makes gold sellers obsolete.

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Posted

For those who don't know the MMO industry well enough this is how it works in nearly every game.

I think most people "get it" and understand the why behind no-player-trading. But it still restricts a lot of fun that could be had and therefore people discuss possible other solutions to the problem. Such an amazing open world can be rather restrictive at times.

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Posted

3- The young one: Final Fantasy XIV: A real Reborn
 

Yes  FFXIV where you have to turn off whispers due to the fact that a gold seller will be sending you a whisper every few seconds.  You can fill up you block list and still get whispers every few seconds from a gold seller.   FFXIV is a horrible example of a game combating gold sellers.   

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Posted (edited)

I think most people "get it" and understand the why behind no-player-trading. But it still restricts a lot of fun that could be had and therefore people discuss possible other solutions to the problem. Such an amazing open world can be rather restrictive at times.

Clearly the poster who tried to defend his top 3 games DIDN'T GET it AT ALL.  Those responses are overwhelmingly damning.  There are deeper aspects though than just recognizing gold selling is an issue.  It's also recognizing that it would be nearly impossible to implement a trade system that wouldn't be highly abused.

Even in a case like Diablo 3 which has no trade system it's plagued with cheating.

Black Desert Online should be recognized as one of the cleanest communities with a real player base.  At least it is today.  Although that doesn't necessarily say all that much since SO MANY MMO's are FILLED with cheating.  That does go a long way to this point though..........  The MMO Community as a whole has not done enough to self police itself to prevent cheating.  This is a RESULT of the behavior of MILLIONS of players.

The next time you see someone cheat or claim botting doesn't affect MY GAME, speak up, shun them, kick them from clan, troll them on forums, discredit them, and don't allow them in parties.

Edited by 2Cents
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Posted

I have at least 3 examples of those doomsday scenarios not happening in long standing MMO's, that still, to this day deal with the issues proactively and efficiently, and to no ones surprise, they are subscription based (some have a free to play component, but only offer a bare bones experience so might as well pay the fee):

1- The big daddy: World of Warcraft.
2- The old one: Lord of The Rings Online
3- The young one: Final Fantasy XIV: A real Reborn
Here's a bonus one: Star Wars: The Old Republic.


Once again, I think you need to experience the bliss of playing a subscription based MMO to understand that these issues are endemic to free to play (even if they call themselves buy to play) Korean imports.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trade option except Trade Broker or email.

And they have stated that they're not supporting trades via email and it's at own risk.

 

Doing fine till this day, and I personally have no issue with it in BDO.

Hence I see no reason to create Trading option, because that will require a redesign of prices in game + new silver sink content that will be forced upon everyone.

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Posted (edited)

You know this is on a regular basis right?

 

*Copy paste dribble validating my point even further*

In your face much?  How about 100,000 players is a "small" portion of their player base.  Except NOPE! 100,000+ is only A SINGLE INSTANCE of constant ban waves that DO NOT catch everyone cheating.

I mentioned "doomsday scenarios" here, not the total elimination of Gold Sellers or whatever you call "cheaters". I also focused on these games being proactive in regards to regulating the amount of gold sellers, which you, good sir, validated by copy pasting all that dribble without even having the decency to change the font style.
So thank you for the input and validating my stance even further. I guess it's "your face" now.

Yes  FFXIV where you have to turn off whispers due to the fact that a gold seller will be sending you a whisper every few seconds.  You can fill up you block list and still get whispers every few seconds from a gold seller.   FFXIV is a horrible example of a game combating gold sellers.   

You do that? Well, that's silly, I just blacklist anyone I do not desire to send me /tells. If your block list is full, then delete the oldest ones (by that time, those accounts are either deleted or banned). I have been playing this game for a while and in the last year, I rarely get private messages from Gil Sellers, maybe 1 in the last 2 months. 

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trade option except Trade Broker or email.

And they have stated that they're not supporting trades via email and it's at own risk.

 

Doing fine till this day, and I personally have no issue with it in BDO.

Hence I see no reason to create Trading option, because that will require a redesign of prices in game + new silver sink content that will be forced upon everyone.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't need you to trade anything in between players, because you can easily (and by easily, I mean baby Playskool easy) achieve/obtain everything on your own without the extreme RNGwall BDO has. Your can't compare GW2 to BDO since GW's goal is not to suck your wallet dry with cheap RNGwall mechanics.

Edited by Kasathar

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Posted

You do that? Well, that's silly, I just blacklist anyone I do not desire to send me /tells. If your block list is full, then delete the oldest ones (by that time, those accounts are either deleted or banned). I have been playing this game for a while and in the last year, I rarely get private messages from Gil Sellers, maybe 1 in the last 2 months. 

 

I quit FF a year ago, main reason was the amount of gold sellers.

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I quit FF a year ago, main reason was the amount of gold sellers.

Well, I am sorry to hear that, it's not like what you experienced anymore, it's actually quite fun, definitely worth a look. You should take advantage of the "Welcome back home" events SE releases once in a while.

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Posted

Kakao wanted to monopolize the real money trade in their game...  I guess?

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Posted

I love that people think that not being able to trade has stopped the cheaters......M

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I love that people think that not being able to trade has stopped the cheaters......M

Cry

They took away my alt account ability 2 weeks ago. GM was nice enough to explain this change was to combat botters hackers also. Such a big list of systems nerfed so they can avoid actually doing their job and combatting this problem like most other mmo's. Here we got chat energy costs, offline energy nerfs, no player trading and no multiple paid for accounts. And yet nothing has changed except inconvenience for their paying customers.

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Posted

No player trade butchers one of the main systems for player interaction. Would you remove fighting because of that cool down exploit a while back?

As to preventing cheating, it may have lowered it bit it's not gone, the people who buy gold are the same sort of people to buy pre leveled accounts, or silver farmers to play their account while they do something else.

But hey, out of sight out of mind eh 2cent? There's probably billions of silver being introduced each day through those methods, but as long as your precious chat window looks clean, you'll convince yourself that your bear patrol is keeping away the bears.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah from what I have seen so far gold sellers are basically making money of other peoples hard work is that simple they are parasites.  Stop saying they should just deal with gold sellers and hire more people to keep track of the gold sellers and ban these accounts. Now here is the clincher listen very well are you ready here it goes why the F should they when they don't have too. Sure they are making money lots of it but its going to them which means this game has future and will be around for a really long time meaning more updates and other stuff. Seriously people make sound like it's impossible to make silver in this game which it isn't . So basically I think maybe only 5% of people asking for trading to be enable have legit reasons. The other 95% are type b players who are constantly making forums post about enable trading or most likely complaining about pearl items on mp.

Edited by Dalenos

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Posted

Op is a troll and if sincere than an idiot.

In all that wall of text you don't mention that most gold sellers, especially that are reselling cash shop items, are in fact doing this fraudulently with stolen CC. How the hell are gaming companies supposed to stop this?

On top of that, you have people, mostly likely teens with their parents CC where they buy stolen accounts and such and do it multiple times.  How are companies supposed to stop this when people are more than willing to partake in that market?

Than how many kids go to these sites, get their parents info/ identity stolen, never admit to it and the parents are left not only with a -----ing legal/ financial mess on their hands, but now believe in the stereotype of the "evil internet" when in reality it was their own stupid kids partaking in illegal activities.

The fact the OP mentions none of this, just proves they are either trolling or actively naive. 

Not sure which is worse honestly.

Also you categorizing players is pretty sad and pretty far off the mark, once again proving that you are either trolling or actively naive.

All of which you than somehow try to tie this all into some sort of nutty conspiracy LOL

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Posted

I've yet to find a satisfactory reason as to why capped free trade wouldn't work.

Just make so that people can trade whatever they want to whoever they want without bounding the items, but limit the amount of goods they can send or receive to a few million per week. People are able to share raw material and finished goods, help out friends a bit, all without allowing for any meaningful amount of goldselling or boosting.

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Posted (edited)

SHIT, give me Type A anytime!! I have played MMos for years, and even those with a sub are plagued with Gold sellers, and even worst, the gold buyers. The day that BDO opens up trading, it will be the day that it will truly die. Pearl will have to come up with something completely new and innovative that will really work, if they want to open trade.

I've yet to find a satisfactory reason as to why capped free trade wouldn't work.

Just make so that people can trade whatever they want to whoever they want without bounding the items, but limit the amount of goods they can send or receive to a few million per week. People are able to share raw material and finished goods, help out friends a bit, all without allowing for any meaningful amount of goldselling or boosting.

This is true. They will find different ways around it and destroy the economy and the little bit of balance that the game has.

Kakao wanted to monopolize the real money trade in their game...  I guess?

In a way, yes, I have to agree. They are the only ones allowed to sell gold. But, in positive way, the real gold sellers are not plaguing our servers and destroying our economy. I rather have it KAKAO's way for now.

Edited by Slasher
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Posted

You forgot to add "Forum dwellers" to Type B.

By the way, trading is not the issue here, it's Kakao not giving a shit about taking some responsibility for monitoring people who are involved in shady currency selling practices and also the fact that Kakao wants to be THE only silver seller.

I think, you need to play more Non Free to Play MMO's to understand that this problem is endemic to these kind of Korean grind fests. 

This is flatly not an issue specific to games from Korea, and frankly I'm quite tired of watching people make that completely arbitrary distinction.

20% of MMO players in the NA/EU markets surveyed by the Daedalus Project report having used 3rd party P2W vendors. That is millions of players.

There's no stopping that many people. There's no monitoring that many people. No MMORPG that I know of has managed to successfully get them out and keep them out.

Western MMORPGs are just as incapable of getting a grip on this issue, and they have used similar approaches. WoW has had in-game RMT for a while now, trying to do the same "outcompete the gold-sellers" strategy that this game is doing.

The OP is correct. This game's restrictions on trading and the marketplace are there to make it much harder for 3rd party RMTers. Those in combination with the in-game RMT market represent perhaps the most hostile environment for 3rd party P2W vendors of any MMORPG on the market.

And it should remain that way, because the alternative is to be overrun with players who are cheerfully willing to destroy the game as long as they make a profit on it all the way down.

Well, I am sorry to hear that, it's not like what you experienced anymore, it's actually quite fun, definitely worth a look. You should take advantage of the "Welcome back home" events SE releases once in a while.

And yet, here you are.

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Posted

This is flatly not an issue specific to games from Korea, and frankly I'm quite tired of watching people make that completely arbitrary distinction.

20% of MMO players in the NA/EU markets surveyed by the Daedalus Project report having used 3rd party P2W vendors. That is millions of players.

There's no stopping that many people. There's no monitoring that many people. No MMORPG that I know of has managed to successfully get them out and keep them out.

I agree with you that this is an issue that plagues other mmo's. Although it does effect F2P titles much more then subscription or B2P models. That being said, I have to agree that Player-Player trading would make matter worse for this title since BDO just has way too much control in the client, combined with AFK and scripting mechanics being built into the game and its a recipe for disaster.

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Posted

I am super happy we dont have trading here and so should any other who want to see this game thrive. We all know the drawbacks with trading as in OP, but in this game having raw silver have a significant effect on progression as items are not soulbound/char bound. Allowing player trade would hurt the game much more than soft p2w controlled style theyre going with. 

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No player trading means everything a player's obtained during their time in BDO came from their own hard work. People asking for player trading will sacrifice that for the ability to help others by giving away stuff. One is not better than the other, it is simply a design choice. The catch is, one of the choices comes with massive advantages in combating third party RMT and cheating. 

One reason player trading sounds appealing and gets attention in BDO is because of the great features players want to do with friends. BDO is a very single player oriented experience at times instead of a game to play WITH your friends, not along side them. All an MMORPG needs to do is create systems in game that allow players to work together to achieve similar goals in ways that do not involve player trading. This allows players to help friends much more and is really the best of both worlds imo.

Pearl Abyss' choice to remove player to player trading is one of the best changes to ever happen in MMORPG's. Even if the change was intended to line the developers pockets more than help the community. Which i believe to be true because if they cared about the community they wouldn't have introduced P2W. That sense of accomplishment and respect between players has been destroyed by P2W's addition to BDO. 

No player to player trade means a hell of a lot more in a non P2W game. Hopefully, someday, we'll all get to play a game like that longer than a few months.

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