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PVP punishment [Karma bombing and Griefing]


Poll:   182 votes

  1. 1. What do you think?

    • Yes, this is a huge problem within the game and needs to be solved quickly.
      107
    • No, I've not had any problems with this nor do I think I ever will.
      51
    • I'm not sure, I can see how this could upset people both if fixed and if not fixed.
      24

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103 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Okay, first of all I would like to say; yes I do know topics have been made over pvp punishment systems, however in my opinion not to an adequate level of depth.

I'm a level 58 Valkyrie, with a combined AP/DP of 480 meaning I can beat most people in pvp, which means holding a spot while grinding in pirates for level 59 isn't [or wouldn't have been] difficult. However with the changes of the pvp system, it has became apparent that if someone wants to upset you and disrupt your grinding session with no punishment what so ever even without sufficient gear to kill you they can. 

As you can imagine while grinding to level 59 the newly introduced 200% 30 min experience buff is extremely useful for me, while using it this morning I encountered a player who had previously been upset with me due to previous Guild vs Guild situations. This player had a lot less AP and DP than me, however with him being a sorceress and me being a Valkyrie, he could easily out farm me using his awakened weapon.

This player continued to follow me around whilst I had my 200% buff active and just steal mobs from me, he wasn't stealing the spot; just trying to upset me in which he succeeded. At this point I feel like i had no options, however the choices I could make are listed below. 

  • Continuously kill him each time they came back - Resulting in Karma loss and eventually neg karma which could mean losing exp to other players on the island.
  • Declare war [Which I did do] - The war took 20/30 mins to declare so my buff had already been wasted, and even then the guild had put him in guild protection.
  • Continue to try and grind - He could easily out farm me using his awakening weapon.
  • Change channel - Even though this seems like the best option, on a double exp weekend there is a high chance all other spots in different channels will be taken already.

While all of these options somehow seem to punish me, the other player gets off fine, they wont lose exp, they wont lose items, they wont lose anything in fact other than the time they are wasting to just upset me. I feel like this problem could be easily fixed via introducing a feature that would punish people for dying, or dying to the same person over and over, I have listed some of the solutions I have came up with by myself in a short amount of time.

  • Bring back 1% exp loss on death regardless of how you are killed, this would seriously make "karma bombing" almost impossible, as you would be losing progress yourself unless you were already at 0%
  • Introduce a buff that is given on death by a player, that if killed by the same player they will lose 1% exp, make this buff last between 15 and 30 minutes allowing the person who is presumably grinding to gain back their karma.
  • If killed by the same player 2 times in a row within 5 minutes, force them to spawn at a town. 
  • If you flag on someone and kill them, and then flag on them and kill them again with in a space of 5 minutes from the first kill, you don't lose any karma.

Although I'm sure some of these suggestions may have flaws I've just came up with them in the last 5 minutes and I'm sure if more thought and effort is put into this situation a solution could be made and implemented quite easily. Currently I feel like this has ruined the way open pvp feels while fighting for a grinding spot, and makes it extremely difficult for any sort of player to have fun if there is another player willing to waste their time in trolling and upsetting others.

Thank you for taking your time to read this, and I hope a solution is found quickly.

EDIT 1:

Other solutions suggested by players;

  • Spawning at a node makes you lose 1% exp, but spawning in a town doesn't. - Vanille [Second page]
  • Increasing time taken to spawn per each death unless spawning at town - regna [First Page]
  • If killed by the same player again in a certain space of time, give a debuff stopping them from being able to be killed or kill/attack mobs - Zubi [First page]
  • Don't allow node re-spawning after 2 or 3 deaths - Reawakened [First Page]

Caladwen also brings a good point that one of the reasons this happens is there is only 2 really good grinding spots, those being sausans and pirates. Their comment can be seen on Page 2 of replies and they make a good point along with ways to fix the problem.

I would also like to add in to all of this that I'm not actually a great fan of losing 1 exp on death as that just switches griefing around, although that is one of the solutions mentioned above I really doubt its the best thing to come up with, especially losing it on the first death

I'd like to thank everyone for their support and their contribution to solving this problem.

 

 

Edited by Skiouros
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Posted (edited)

It is fine how it is.

 

Would you rather have him and his friends come kill and camp you so you lose all your xp? Here is a tip, change channels or swap characters for a while.

Edited by LONGTIME
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Posted

Well i like your idea to do smt with karma bombing but still dont need to give negative effect on that guys. Because then same gona hapend like at the start and top geared guys fear away the new players.
Ohh and its kill the random pvp to.

I prefer more this way.

  • If you hit a player or mount you not loose Karma.
  • If the Player hit back he turn to in PvP mode so if you kill him you not loose Karma.
  • If the Player not hit back and you kill him you loose Karma the same amount like now.
  • Litle change for Desert area only: Increase the karma drop from mobs a bit or decrase the karma loose for PK.


Like in Linege 2 at the old days.
Its more PvP,Newbie and Casual friendly and its not gona kill the OWPvP.

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Posted (edited)

@LONGTIME Well, he can't kill me, and if he brought his friends then well played to him, he can have the grinding spot that's how it works...

Edited by Skiouros
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Posted

1% exp loss was a way to troll someone as you could kill him and make him lose exp with no reason at all.

What I would like to see is a timer to respawn that it's increased more and more whenever you die.

1st death: 1min to respawn/use elion

2nd death: 2min to respawn/use elion

3rd death: 4min...

4rd death: 8min...

Ofc you are free to spawn in the city.

This way you are being punished the more you die, when you have died 5 times, you have 16min to respawn. Fair enough.

But what if you are being hunted by a party/camped in node? In that case I would give a buff of invulnerability when you respawns that allows you to go to another spot without being hunted out of grinding spots. The buff dissapears whenever you does some damage (pvp or pve).

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Posted

1% exp loss was a way to troll someone as you could kill him and make him lose exp with no reason at all.

What I would like to see is a timer to respawn that it's increased more and more whenever you die.

1st death: 1min to respawn/use elion

2nd death: 2min to respawn/use elion

3rd death: 4min...

4rd death: 8min...

Ofc you are free to spawn in the city.

This way you are being punished the more you die, when you have died 5 times, you have 16min to respawn. Fair enough.

But what if you are being hunted by a party/camped in node? In that case I would give a buff of invulnerability when you respawns that allows you to go to another spot without being hunted out of grinding spots. The buff dissapears whenever you does some damage (pvp or pve).

Well in reply to this, do you not think that giving a buff after death would solve it? so you don't lose exp via a gank or someone taking your spot, but if you go back then you can lose exp...? 

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Posted

It is fine how it is.

 

Would you rather have him and his friends come kill and camp you so you lose all your xp? Here is a tip, change channels or swap characters for a while.

So you say basicly just to keep change ch when a random wild guildless pop up and start to griefeing you? Because with this karma system even a 5 man grp cant stop yet a guildless griefer (especialy the awaken ones) because you run out of karma slowly and you cant send war on them (ohh and when you ask them to leave pls because the pt is full they just dont careor if you got slot and wnat invite them they just refuse to join).  

BTW what the problem when a random OWPvP just gona hapen when evrybody call he's friend's? :D Basicly we play because of this and not because to kill ifinity amount of mob.

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Posted

Changing channels is not an appropriate response.  In most of the highly contested areas, those channels will already have people farming those areas.  This forces the farmer to either 1) kharma bomb that group and force them out, or 2) wait another 15 minutes and try to channel change again.

You have to ask yourself, whose behavior is being rewarded by this?  The griefers, or the farmers?

 

The systems in place in a game will promote a certain type of behavior.  The kharma griefing that's apparent in this game at contested spots is reinforced by the lack of repercussions daum set in place when they removed the experience loss on death penalty.  Nobody wants to lose experience, and I don't think most reasonable people want to see that particular negative reinforcement come back.  But having no repercussion is also equally bad, and telling somebody who is being griefed to channel swap is not an appropriate response.

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Posted

It is fine how it is.

 

Would you rather have him and his friends come kill and camp you so you lose all your xp? Here is a tip, change channels or swap characters for a while.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. if someone brings a bunch of people, run and swap, this is to deal with griefers not someone trying to take your spot. if someone can TAKE my spot, it is theirs, no matter how many they bring, if i dont have friends to bring, its theres, and if i do, FUN, GROUP SMALL SCALE PVP(My favroite part of the game.) the issue lies with guildless players/players with protection GRIEFING a spot just to F with you. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree the person killed should lose something, if he comes with friends and takes your spot by killing you then well played sir, what's the point of gearing up if the game will punish you for being stronger than others? This shouldn't ever be a thing. I'd also like to add an idea that could be changed or not exactly as I put it:

  • If you get killed by the same player X amount of times in X minutes, you will be unable to attack/be attacked by either mobs or players, also unable to use any skill so all you can do is move away safely, this would also prevent you from getting any XP, so no, you can't have your party kill for you. This would avoid node spawncamping while also preventing karma bombing, since like you said by the time this guy is able to come again you'll have enough karma to keep him away safely.

Also I think losing XP would be good.

Edited by Zubi
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Posted (edited)

It's not going to be fair regardless of what changes. Right now it's the weaker player who gets the advantage and if they change it to any of the above mentioned "solutions" it will just be the stronger player who gets the advantage. Giving the stronger players the advantage over the weaker ones just turns it a snowball, the stronger get even stronger at a much faster rate.

 

edit: I'm not saying this is a good system but it's not all that bad

Edited by Jeax
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Posted (edited)

How does a change like this imply use of cashshop? Or, in what way can Kakao Game make profit from this change? I truly see no reason for this change to be made, unless it's made cashshop exclusive, since the poor and hardworking guys at Kakao need to eat too, those poor souls.

Another idea is for them to add: private channel option; in cashshop exclusive. Basically you buy your own private channel, and play the game like it is truly intended to be played, solo.

Edited by Chun-Chun

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Posted

It's not going to be fair regardless of what changes. Right now it's the weaker player who gets the advantage and if they change it to any of the above mentioned "solutions" it will just be the stronger player who gets the advantage. Giving the stronger players the advantage over the weaker ones just turns it a snowball, the stronger get even stronger at a much faster rate.

 

edit: I'm not saying this is a good system but it's not all that bad

I feel like you're somewhat missing the point, If you can't fight for a grinding spot that wont change regardless of what system is implemented at the time, the only thing that will change is it stops any player karma bombing.  Here ill explain;

  • Current system: Lower player that cant fight for a spot is killed and their spot is taken, however they can just repeatedly go back over and over and karma bomb until the player that has fairly taken their spot is forced to either just grind and ignore them making them lose exp, or switch channels/leave.
  • a fix to this: Lower player that cant fight for a spot is killed and their spot is taken, however if they continuously go back after their spot was fairly taken, they will be punished or at the very minimum, the player who fairly took the spot wont be punished.

Either way the lower person will lose their spot, unless they manage to make the higher person leave due to annoyance or karma bombing, which is a totally stupid thing that shouldn't be able to happen, no matter what.

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Posted

Agree with Ski :D

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Posted

Just dont allow node respawning after 2 or 3 deaths and force them to respawn at nearest town. Almost every grind spot that is farmed by the "high geared" people is far away from the towns(Pirates, Crescent and so on) Even at sausans It would be enough I guess because running from tarif to sausans just for getting killed again is pretty annoying imo.

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Posted

Just dont allow node respawning after 2 or 3 deaths and force them to respawn at nearest town. Almost every grind spot that is farmed by the "high geared" people is far away from the towns(Pirates, Crescent and so on) Even at sausans It would be enough I guess because running from tarif to sausans just for getting killed again is pretty annoying imo.

This would be a great solution because in-between times of them running back you could have free time to grind, thanks for your contribution.

the only worry i have with this is if someone is upset enough they still may be able to grief you slowly though, it would still be an improvement regardless.

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Posted

I feel like you're somewhat missing the point, If you can't fight for a grinding spot that wont change regardless of what system is implemented at the time, the only thing that will change is it stops any player karma bombing.  Here ill explain;

  • Current system: Lower player that cant fight for a spot is killed and their spot is taken, however they can just repeatedly go back over and over and karma bomb until the player that has fairly taken their spot is forced to either just grind and ignore them making them lose exp, or switch channels/leave.
  • a fix to this: Lower player that cant fight for a spot is killed and their spot is taken, however if they continuously go back after their spot was fairly taken, they will be punished or at the very minimum, the player who fairly took the spot wont be punished.

Either way the lower person will lose their spot, unless they manage to make the higher person leave due to annoyance or karma bombing, which is a totally stupid thing that shouldn't be able to happen, no matter what.

I like how you use the words "fairly taken" . If you are a level 58+ with 450+ combined killing level 56 or below players with only average gear it's not exactly fair for them. following your logic if i am grinding somewhere and you decide to come and kill me i should just leave or be forced to leave? I'm sorry but i can't see how that would be any more fair. Just because you spend 3 times as much time on the game shouldn't mean that you can just push people around because you feel like it.

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Posted

I like how you use the words "fairly taken" . If you are a level 58+ with 450+ combined killing level 56 or below players with only average gear it's not exactly fair for them. following your logic if i am grinding somewhere and you decide to come and kill me i should just leave or be forced to leave? I'm sorry but i can't see how that would be any more fair. Just because you spend 3 times as much time on the game shouldn't mean that you can just push people around because you feel like it.

but... thats.. how the game works? what..?

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Posted

but... thats.. how the game works? what..?

You just answered your own thread. It's how the game works. if you want to kill someone over and over that badly because they are in your precious grinding spot you will get punished eventually.

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Posted

I like how you use the words "fairly taken" . If you are a level 58+ with 450+ combined killing level 56 or below players with only average gear it's not exactly fair for them. following your logic if i am grinding somewhere and you decide to come and kill me i should just leave or be forced to leave? I'm sorry but i can't see how that would be any more fair. Just because you spend 3 times as much time on the game shouldn't mean that you can just push people around because you feel like it.

And that why Kakao changed the karma system like this because there are way to many entitled brats .

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Posted

You just answered your own thread. It's how the game works. if you want to kill someone over and over that badly because they are in your precious grinding spot you will get punished eventually. 

but i havent, because why should i be punished for defending my grinding spot?

 

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Posted (edited)

but i havent, because why should i be punished for defending my grinding spot?

 

You are not being "punished". You chose yourself to get punished by killing him more than 5 times. After killing them 2 times you should realise they are not going to leave. You can then either punish yourself by killing him even more going neg karma and keeping your spot OR you can try to grind it out with him and see who leaves first or just simply go grind somewhere less effective but with no competition.

Again: Just because you spend 3x as much time online shouldn't entitle you to freely have all the good spots to yourself. You are basically looking for a system where you can just kill weaker people as much as you like because you want to grind in your precious grinding spot. You basically want rich to get richer and the poor to remain poor.

Edited by Jeax
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Posted

You are not being "punished". You chose yourself to get punished by killing him more than 5 times. After killing them 2 you should realise they are not going to leave. You can then either punish yourself by killing him even more going neg karma and keeping your spot OR you can try to grind it out with him and see who leaves first or just simply go grind somewhere less effective but with no competition.

Again: Just because you spend 3x as much time online shouldn't entitle you to freely have all the good spots to yourself. You are basically looking for a system where you can just kill weaker people as much as you like because you want to grind in your precious grinding spot. You basically want rich to get richer and the poor to remain poor.

But again why should I have to move spots to somewhere less effective or waste my 200% buff trying to grind aside him without killing him, im sorry but that is me being punished.

And no you're wrong, If I can fight someone and kill them then i'm sorry but that's now my spot until  I either leave or someone else kills me. Karma bombing me and abusing the current system shouldn't at all be a way for lower level'd players to be able to make me move spot.

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Posted

But again why should I have to move spots to somewhere less effective or waste my 200% buff trying to grind aside him without killing him, im sorry but that is me being punished.

And no you're wrong, If I can fight someone and kill them then i'm sorry but that's now my spot until  I either leave or someone else kills me. Karma bombing me and abusing the current system shouldn't at all be a way for lower level'd players to be able to make me move spot.

mmm look at that self entitlement xD "i can kill them so i own this spot" That is EXACTLY the reason why it was changed to how it is now. To stop people with that kind of attitude from just doing whatever they want and owning all the good stuff.

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Posted

mmm look at that self entitlement xD "i can kill them so i own this spot" That is EXACTLY the reason why it was changed to how it is now. To stop people with that kind of attitude from just doing whatever they want and owning all the good stuff.

So, with your argument, levelling and getting better gear is now useless because you cant do anything with it? that's what this game is about, don't like it then play a different game. Getting better gear and progressing to better grinding spots, and defending it from other players is what this game is. 

I seriously lack the ability to comprehend your idea of lower people should be entitled to the same things as higher players? news just in - they shouldn't.

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