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Class balance is broken as -----!

263 posts in this topic

Posted

if sorc was ever balanced in pvp you can call me a monkey...

Monkey.

Sorcs just trololspin trough me knock me down and do like 2k+ dmg JUST with the spin attack. Its like we would one hit everything with our Spinning charge jump and didnt even start the fight. .(lvl 58 warrior 185+ ap / 238+ ad) 3,3k life

AP scaling makes everything hit hard at high levels. Sorc can only use violation with any sort of protection once every six seconds, and it's front-only. So use your super armor, dash, or block accordingly.

"I want to facetank the spin" is not a compelling argument.

its ok for me to have a agile burst class. But what i dont understand is how the class has all this superpowers:

- Super mobile and infinite iframe where he gets 0 dmg 0 cc nothing

- exrem burst not to mention the Ultimate skill, which im not even complaining off. But why can he just avoid all the attacks and jump around like a potato ...and spinkill me 1-2 hits..

You're right, you don't understand it. Please at least read and understand the skill costs and tooltips. The 'infinite iframe' myth in particular is an incredibly accurate predictor of someone who has not bothered to learn how the class functions, akin to someone saying 'omg warrior is so unfair, they have infinite unbreakable block!'

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Posted

AP scaling makes everything hit hard at high levels. Sorc can only use violation with any sort of protection once every six seconds, and it's front-only. So use your super armor, dash, or block accordingly.

Obviously you have no idea how the warrior works.

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Posted (edited)

Monkey.

AP scaling makes everything hit hard at high levels. Sorc can only use violation with any sort of protection once every six seconds, and it's front-only. So use your super armor, dash, or block accordingly.

"I want to facetank the spin" is not a compelling argument.

You're right, you don't understand it. Please at least read and understand the skill costs and tooltips. The 'infinite iframe' myth in particular is an incredibly accurate predictor of someone who has not bothered to learn how the class functions, akin to someone saying 'omg warrior is so unfair, they have infinite unbreakable block!'

i fought enough sorcs to know what im talking about. So pls stop talking about infinite iframe myth.. i had 10 hp sorcs jumping around for minutes and receive NO DMG... even really undergeared ones can outplay you with ease if your unlucky and dont make your hits.

Blocking helps nothing against the spin since he dashes trough me and still knocks me down with ease.. followed by rip

btw: your argument is not right. Blocking can be countered in many different ways. (Grab, jump behind, dash trough etc.) you might explain me how to counter the iframe. Its like try catching a ghost...

Edited by Amnesia

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Posted

i fought enough sorcs to know what im talking about. So pls stop talking about infinite iframe myth.. i had 10 hp sorcs jumping around for minutes and receive NO DMG... even really undergeared ones can outplay you with ease if your unlucky and dont make your hits.

Blocking helps nothing against the spin since he dashes trough me and still knocks me down with ease.. followed by rip

Obviously you have no idea too how the warrior works :)

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Posted

you are welcome to explain me. ;)

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Posted (edited)

Every class is easy to slay, if you stay and wait. The combat is stupid kiting. But in general all the awakened classes are ridiculously overpowered. Most can escape from everything, the rest have ultimate defenses. So the whole - I'm a great player - is in fact - CC, hit, run, or die if you do not run fast enough. BDO after the awakening is a game for noobs. All Kakao gave you are more percent of damage and higher CC chance, with fewer and less diverse skills and combos.  

 

See, the thing about that is that overpowered is an inherently relative term, if all classes are 'overpowered' then none are. I think what you're trying to say is more that you dislike the pacing and flow of combat at high levels and with awakening, which is a fair criticism. 

However, you are dead wrong about the effect of awakening on sorc class, at least. Damage output has increased to remain effective in a post-awakening landscape but the class is VERY noticeably more complex and nuanced than before. A sorc that sits in scythe mode or spams scythe skills is a dead sorc. The class feels complete now from a pure gameplay perspective independent of relative efficacy.

Edited by lolfail

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Posted

i dont say sorcs are not complexe or anything, and this is not a whining. It just feels frustrating when you need 3 players to fight a equal geared good sorc player. Last time he even spinned trough my ultimate and got zero dmg or anything. its just ridiculous at some points

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Posted

See, the thing about that is that overpowered is an inherently relative term, if all classes are 'overpowered' then none are. I think what you're trying to say is more that you dislike the pacing and flow of combat at high levels and with awakening, which is a fair criticism. 

However, you are dead wrong about the effect of awakening on sorc class, at least. Damage output has increased to remain effective in a post-awakening landscape but the class is VERY noticeably more complex and nuanced than before. A sorc that sits in scythe mode or spams scythe skills is a dead sorc. The class feels complete now from a pure gameplay perspective independent of relative efficacy.

Wrong. The good combat is a balance among the defense and the attack, it this case among the skills. It is not a balance among the classes. If all classes are overpowered that simply means the combat is bad. The pacing and the flow are not a problem, the problem is the lack of skills. It is delusional to think you need any skills as a player for the combat now. Like I said it is pretty straight - CC, hit, run, CC, hit, run. It is not skill - contra skill, combo - contra combo. Not to mention the combos are pretty lame, after the awakening.

I play now with nonawakened warrior, because I find more creativity and more fun like this.

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Posted

Obviously you have no idea how the warrior works.

 

....so are you trying to say you don't have the skill to avoid the move, or what? I mean I could sit here claiming your class is broken because I can't facetank your cc and damage skills but that would make me look just as silly as you do now. 

i fought enough sorcs to know what im talking about. So pls stop talking about infinite iframe myth.. i had 10 hp sorcs jumping around for minutes and receive NO DMG... even really undergeared ones can outplay you with ease if your unlucky and dont make your hits.

 

And I've seen warriors wreck sorcs without the sorc being able to fight back. Adding 'I couldn't hit them' doesn't add a damn thing to the 'I can't facetank them' argument. Or do I get to call warriors OP because they can turtle with block and if I spam hits into the front of them they do no damage or cc?

Blocking helps nothing against the spin since he dashes trough me and still knocks me down with ease.. followed by rip

btw: your argument is not right. Blocking can be countered in many different ways. (Grab, jump behind, dash trough etc.) you might explain me how to counter the iframe. Its like try catching a ghost...

Warrior block has super armor, so I guarantee you you're wrong about it being easily countered. Sorcs have no grab and are themselves very vulnerable to it during the openings in their attacks.

Iframe is not something you 'counter' with some specific skill, bud. You just realize that it's based on stamina and keep track of their stamina use (if you plan to wear them out), or you attack during the times their other abilities leave them exposed (if you are confident in your aim).

Iframe is fundamentally more skill-based to both use and play against then the more gear-based block, which is why so many people have issues with it.

"I made my gearscores bigger, why isn't the sorc dying yet?!"

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Posted

....so are you trying to say you don't have the skill to avoid the move, or what? I mean I could sit here claiming your class is broken because I can't facetank your cc and damage skills but that would make me look just as silly as you do now. 

You can simply dodge by jumping to the left of to the right. But no, you are kiting. And you do it because you have abilities to play like a noob. That was a problem for the sorceress from the beginning. Sorry, but that was the worst class as design. I played with it in RU, and it was ridiculously easy. Now all the awakened classes are like the sorceress. Kakao took the design for the class that needed less skills and implemented it for all the classes. Honestly the awakened warrior is just a sorceress with a big sword. All the new classes, no matter most of them are melee, are made for kiting. It is very easy to play with them, and every noob can do it.

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Posted

Wrong. The good combat is a balance among the defense and the attack, it this case among the skills. It is not a balance among the classes. If all classes are overpowered that simply means the combat is bad. The pacing and the flow are not a problem, the problem is the lack of skills. It is delusional to think you need any skills as a player for the combat now. Like I said it is pretty straight - CC, hit, run, CC, hit, run. It is not skill - contra skill, combo - contra combo. Not to mention the combos are pretty lame, after the awakening.

I play now with nonawakened warrior, because I find more creativity and more fun like this.

....I didn't say anything about good combat, I said overpowered (as the term is traditionally used) doesn't apply if everything is on a similar power level. It's commonly held that even without awakenings AP scaling outpaces DP scaling and makes offense more valuable than defense, which as I said above is a valid criticism.

And again, your experience is colored by maining a warrior, generally acknowledged to be an extremely simple class to do well with post-awakening. Sorc needs to make full use of core amulet abilities as well as scythe abilities, switching between the two constantly while managing five different competing resources. It's far from the simplistic picture you're trying to paint, and a hell of a lot more complex than most other mmo PvP.

You can simply dodge by jumping to the left of to the right. But no, you are kiting. And you do it because you have abilities to play like a noob. That was a problem for the sorceress from the beginning. Sorry, but that was the worst class as design. I played with it in RU, and it was ridiculously easy. Now all the awakened classes are like the sorceress. Kakao took the design for the class that needed less skills and implemented it for all the classes. Honestly the awakened warrior is just a sorceress with a big sword. All the new classes, no matter most of them are melee, are made for kiting. It is very easy to play with them, and every noob can do it.

...so again, you are saying you are upset because you have to use defenses to dodge or block damage rather than facetank. Just play something with slower and less mobile combat if that's your thing, no one is forcing you to play an action combat game.

I mean if that's not what you're trying to say then by all means correct me on that, but ranting about how everyone 'plays like noobs' just sounds ridiculous and salty. 

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Posted

i want to just see all classes with awakening then a balance patch why would they balance now just for 2 weeks to do it again then another 2 weeks again just wait for all awakenings and then a balance patch then see how balance will be i dont know what you expect when not all classes have there awakening why would they waste there time just to do it again and again... i am having a hard time on my kuno was even thinking of changing but im gonna stick it out for now 

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Posted (edited)

You're all OP compared to Wizards. Have been since I started the game in April. So exhausted with 1v1 and small group its why bother even saying anything anymore. Go ahead, make us pure PVE class or just there for ranged aoe nukes and then die. My last holdout for this game is the Wizard awakening actually being good to where I can enjoy my class again and then start to enjoy the other things in game again.

Edited by mastroakq

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Posted

And still the most OP classes are wizard and ranger.

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Posted

i dont say sorcs are not complexe or anything, and this is not a whining. It just feels frustrating when you need 3 players to fight a equal geared good sorc player. Last time he even spinned trough my ultimate and got zero dmg or anything. its just ridiculous at some points

You only need one player of equal gear and skill to kill a sorc. If someone spun through your ult and took no damage, it is because either a) he outgears you after all and was able to block the hit, or b) desync. This assumes you hit him in the first place, of course. 

I cannot tell you how many times desync has screwed me over against warriors - they get kd or stunned, but take no damage from the attacks that follow, or they suddenly appear next to you and it's too late, you're already grabbed. You will never actually SEE your own desync, but don't forget it's there. 

You're all OP compared to Wizards. Have been since I started the game in April. So exhausted with 1v1 and small group its why bother even saying anything anymore. Go ahead, make us pure PVE class or just there for ranged aoe nukes and then die. My last holdout for this game is the Wizard awakening actually being good to where I can enjoy my class again and then start to enjoy the other things in game again.

Geared and skilled wizards are very effective. They are harder to get the hang of than more twitch-based classes imo, but not bad at all, and they get better the more people are in a fight and the more coordinated their group is. Practice is essential since knowing a predicting what other classes will do is a major key to success for wizards right now, moreso than others. You can't just jump in and hit buttons and get by like some others. 

Also wizard already has awakening, it just needs carrots for fuel. xD

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Posted

QQ about ninja?... really?..

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Posted

"Approximately equivalent skill" eludes me. Please explain, preferably using medical, psychological, and physical examples how anyone could ever be "Approximately equivalent skill".

In all competitive fighting sports, people lay odds and make predictions using a variety of factors to judge approximate relative skil levels between fighters. It's a common and well known practce to humans for millenia, there's no reason to pretend like you arent also from the earth.

I can provide a counter argument that would poop holes all over that so please, elaborate on this, because as I recall, many people in games I play refer to this as a handicap for crap players.

If I said something along the lines of true equivalency, but approximte equivalency is something that can be quickly derive n the fly by anyone with intermediate knowledge of the fighting system in BDO

No players skill is ever equal, as no person is the same.Not physically, not mentally, not in any case way shape or form.

obviously, but reducto ad absurdum is without value here as most readers know what is going in, rhetorical tricks aside.

You're living in a confused dream world, clearly. Debunked.

lmao, only in your dreams

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Posted (edited)

 

Can you change your color if you're going to quote people in this method? It also makes it more difficult for others to respond to your rebuttal.

1. So you agree that equality is nonexistent and that humans round up. That's my point. Thanks. This means that what people are asking for in regards to balance is a handicap, not equalized gear.

2.So... Handicaps. Weak and unskilled players want handicaps. Players who don't try as hard as others do want handicaps.
Gotcha.

3&4. I don't see how any of what you said proves to any extent that having equalized gear in this game would help players that are shit have aprox. equalized chance at winning. The fact of the matter is that if you don't improve yourself you'll always be shit. Stop blaming others and their own crap so you can act the victim lol.

Now let me be clear. I'm not against EQUALIZED gear(I prefer sets that can be combined, mixed and matched so that people can pull off the builds they'd like to have). Not at all. I'd love to see it in the new 5v5 / 3v3 arenas. 100%.
But don't go on this tangent about balancing classes when you realize you're getting shit on, but can't seem to accept that the class balance in this game is in a "circular" format.

If you're unwilling to sacrifice all of your damage for more survivablity against the class that gives you issues, you don't have a right to complain in my eyes, sorry.

Prove to me precisely how the current level of balance is not good enough for you, what would you change? exactly what would you change, what skills, what methods and tactics, what stats? Because you've thought this all out, right? You've done ALL THE MATH to come to a conclusion resulting in your point, bdo classes are not balanced in any way shape or form what so ever.

I will wait for your thesis.

Edited by War

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Posted

Warrior block has super armor, so I guarantee you you're wrong about it being easily countered. Sorcs have no grab and are themselves very vulnerable to it during the openings in their attacks.

Not a warrior here but violation's float goes through block if it hits in the back. It seems another exception (or a bug, no importance anyway since IT IS how it works) to the 360° CC immunity.

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Posted

Are Sorcerers really not getting any hate since their awakening was released?

Sorceres awakening is ok, but rangers... like they say in korea, god mode, wtf is that.. most op shiit i ever saw in bdo so far

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Posted

in this its

Class>Level>Gear>Skill cause like it or not the classes that need long combos that take like 3x longer+ than other classes yet does no more damage is not fair. effort should do more damage but in this skill means little if you play an op class or have atleast 200 ap as seems ap majorly scales high at about 200 so ballance is anyones game that point...

 

No new person is gonna be compeditive for ages so the scaleing needs a nerf somewhat.

Its prob class>gear>level>skill

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Posted

Its prob class>gear>level>skill

With not all awakenings out, it'd be more accurate to say: class > level > gear > skill.

Until more of the player base reach 60, specifically players of classes with awakenings, they truly don't have any idea how powerful some of the 59/60/61 skills really are. I still generally have to peel several pieces of gear off to duel non-awakened 57's that by all accounts actually outgear me to make it somewhat even.

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Posted

Can you change your color if you're going to quote people in this method? It also makes it more difficult for others to respond to your rebuttal.

1. So you agree that equality is nonexistent and that humans round up. That's my point. Thanks. This means that what people are asking for in regards to balance is a handicap, not equalized gear.

2.So... Handicaps. Weak and unskilled players want handicaps. Players who don't try as hard as others do want handicaps.
Gotcha.

3&4. I don't see how any of what you said proves to any extent that having equalized gear in this game would help players that are shit have aprox. equalized chance at winning. The fact of the matter is that if you don't improve yourself you'll always be shit. Stop blaming others and their own crap so you can act the victim lol.

Now let me be clear. I'm not against EQUALIZED gear(I prefer sets that can be combined, mixed and matched so that people can pull off the builds they'd like to have). Not at all. I'd love to see it in the new 5v5 / 3v3 arenas. 100%.
But don't go on this tangent about balancing classes when you realize you're getting shit on, but can't seem to accept that the class balance in this game is in a "circular" format.

If you're unwilling to sacrifice all of your damage for more survivablity against the class that gives you issues, you don't have a right to complain in my eyes, sorry.

Prove to me precisely how the current level of balance is not good enough for you, what would you change? exactly what would you change, what skills, what methods and tactics, what stats? Because you've thought this all out, right? You've done ALL THE MATH to come to a conclusion resulting in your point, bdo classes are not balanced in any way shape or form what so ever.

I will wait for your thesis.

If gear is equalized, you will have YOUR current handicap removed. It's a bit hypocritical to deride others for wanting an even playing field when YOU have been running around with undue advantage this whole time.

Weak and unskilled players are the only ones who need gear that is substantially more powerful than everyone else. I think you fail to realize that BDO is a game not a job. Requiring people to work hard in order to gain benefits is petty and pointless in a venue that is primarily for entertainment purposes. As far as I can tell, your argument is "I wasted my whole life grinding mobs... So I DESERVE to have an advantage over others..." Hate to tell you this buddy, but everyone paid for this game just like you. Nobody DESERVES anything, it's just a matter of common sense to make a product that gives a reasonable value to all paying customers.

The very fact that you can make the false equivalency of players who don't waste ther lives to get all PEN boss gear are somehow completely unskilled shows you don't understand what the word skill actually means. Hnestly it sounds like you are scared to face anyone on even terms... Video game cowardice... it's sad.

Balance in this game is in a circular format.... There is no balancing in this game. PERIOD, circular square triangular, whatever shape you choose, it doesn't change the fact that the classes aren't balanced. Of course, how could they be balanced? there's no avenue in the game in which balancing could occur anyways since gear outweighs all else.

for people who are reading this and actually possess some common sense, here's the stat difference between what someone ike War runs around in, and what a normal player would have: (anyone with haf a brain can immediately see that War has a significant advantage (which he pretends is somehow related to his "skill")

Total Stats

AP: 177 (174 - 180)
DP: 246
Enhancements
Critical Hit +3
Attack Speed +2
Casting Speed +2

Bonuses
Accuracy +16
Evasion +12
Damage Reduction +20
Additional Special Attack Damage +1
Max HP +300
Knockback/Floating Resistance +10%
Knockdown/Bound Resistance +30%
Weight Limit +60LT

Comparison Stats

AP: 264 (261 - 267)
DP: 283
Enhancements
Attack Speed +6
Casting Speed +6

Bonuses
All Resistance +10%
Max HP +800
Damage Reduction +8
Stun/Stiffness/Freezing Resistance +20%
Max MP/WP/SP +100
Weight Limit +120LT
Increased Accuracy & effect increases during Enhancement
Accuracy +8
Increased Evasion & effect increases during Enhancement
Knockback/Floating Resistance +10%
Knockdown/Bound Resistance +30%
Max Stamina +200

 

To balance classes in a video game, you conduct it like any other scientific exercise. You remove or miimize any external factors that would give advantage to one class or another, then you run many many tests and matches btween the classes... After you collect the data, then you can start to balance. I am still arguing, to have a venue for equalized gear, so the task of class balancing can even occur to begin with.

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Posted (edited)

If gear is equalized, you will have YOUR current handicap removed. It's a bit hypocritical to deride others for wanting an even playing field when YOU have been running around with undue advantage this whole time.

Weak and unskilled players are the only ones who need gear that is substantially more powerful than everyone else. I think you fail to realize that BDO is a game not a job. Requiring people to work hard in order to gain benefits is petty and pointless in a venue that is primarily for entertainment purposes. As far as I can tell, your argument is "I wasted my whole life grinding mobs... So I DESERVE to have an advantage over others..." Hate to tell you this buddy, but everyone paid for this game just like you. Nobody DESERVES anything, it's just a matter of common sense to make a product that gives a reasonable value to all paying customers.

The very fact that you can make the false equivalency of players who don't waste ther lives to get all PEN boss gear are somehow completely unskilled shows you don't understand what the word skill actually means. Hnestly it sounds like you are scared to face anyone on even terms... Video game cowardice... it's sad.

Balance in this game is in a circular format.... There is no balancing in this game. PERIOD, circular square triangular, whatever shape you choose, it doesn't change the fact that the classes aren't balanced. Of course, how could they be balanced? there's no avenue in the game in which balancing could occur anyways since gear outweighs all else.

for people who are reading this and actually possess some common sense, here's the stat difference between what someone ike War runs around in, and what a normal player would have: (anyone with haf a brain can immediately see that War has a significant advantage (which he pretends is somehow related to his "skill")

While there is some appeal that a GW2 style linear gear scaling would be good in this game - the game would simply fall off the face of the earth. Even the people who'd be appeased by such a thing would be right in line to quit after the luster wears off - exactly like what happened in GW2 and other games that attempt an "everyone should be equal" approach.

The pve suffers, but the pvp suffers more. Life isn't fair, and that's part of this games appeal to many people. Quite frankly, yes, if someone is willing to grind hours upon hours upon hours to make TET attempts and succeed, they definitely deserve to have a leg up against someone who simply can't or doesn't want to do that. I won't disagree that certain aspects should (and will) be softened, but the willingness to advance needs to stay.

This socialistic cesspool that is pervading games lately is a signal that we're in trouble, indeed.

Edited by triggered

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