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How much does Harassment, or even being killed/attacked unexpectedly actually happen?

How much does Harassment, or even being killed/attacked unexpectedly actually happen?   365 votes

  1. 1. How much does Harassment, or even being killed/attacked unexpectedly actually happen?

    • I get attacked less than once a week.
      148
    • I get attacked 1 to 4 times a week.
      89
    • I get attacked almost every day.
      66
    • I get attacked more than once every day.
      62
  2. 2. How often does this happen when you are grinding?

    • Almost all the time
      131
    • Sometimes
      122
    • Hardly ever.
      81
    • Never.
      31

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

265 posts in this topic

Posted

That's a kind of twisted and convoluted interpretation which, by repeated use, devoids words of their original meanings.

PvP just means Player vs Player. Nothing else. Then, once this premise is set come the conditions and rules of engagement which will determine what type of PvP you're dealing with (Duel, PK, GVG, RVR, Arena, premade or random ....)

Let me put a comparison here: In war an armed soldier walking trough a village where unarmed civilians live and ...

shoot one person (children, old people, farmer, etc.) after another  ....

.... because he can, because he has a MG, MP, a whatever kind of  weapon. 

Now, are those civilians took an active part in the war. Are they a big threat for the armed soldier?

Can you say that the soldier shoot just to defend himself?

Player versus player = active competition between those two or more player. 

Now, if one of the player is not active (off line, not interested or willing to fight)  ...

could you still say it is an equal fight where all participants are taking actively action? O.o

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Posted

PK = Player A (flaget) attacks without warning player B (not flaget) who has no intention to fight against player A and kills him. If Player B is stronger, better, or has the better gear (etc.) he can maybe kill player A in self defence or run away and escape the fight.

PvP = Player A and player B want to compete against each other and duel. Both are flaget. Here both player have the same intention.

Stop making a fool of yourself. Stop talking about "logic". Start thinking out of the box. 

I brought two examples. There are many other examples to be mentioned here... but it is not my intention and not my business to teach you.

Go and grab some books in the library and read them - this will help to expand your horizon.

making a fool of myself? you just tried to justify a weaker person winning vs a stronger person using a real life example. i used a proper example of a real life situation that fits how it happens in game.

a weaker person beats somebody else who is stronger by dying. which is equivalent of like i said , a stick figure beating a body builder in a fight by literally throwing his body at his fist.

im sorry if you cant comprehend how idiotic you seem.

Let me put a comparison here: In war an armed soldier walking trough a village where unarmed civilians live and ...

shoot one person (children, old people, farmer, etc.) after another  ....

.... because he can, because he has a MG, MP, a whatever kind of  weapon. 

Now, are those civilians took an active part in the war. Are they a big threat for the armed soldier?

Can you say that the soldier shoot just to defend himself?

Player versus player = active competition between those two or more player. 

Now, if one of the player is not active (off line, not interested or willing to fight)  ...

could you still say it is an equal fight where all participants are taking actively action? O.o

your attempts at analogies are so comical sometimes.

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Posted

Some players are just assholes.  That's the only word you can use for them, I encounter them constantly.  Like the 58 Tamer who was farming lowbies at Elrics, he even chased me off the cliff after he'd killed me 4 times.  It's assholes like that, that force the developers to put in restrictions.  A lot of you morons literally bring it on yourselves.

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Posted

Some players are just assholes.  That's the only word you can use for them, I encounter them constantly.  Like the 58 Tamer who was farming lowbies at Elrics, he even chased me off the cliff after he'd killed me 4 times.  It's assholes like that, that force the developers to put in restrictions.  A lot of you morons literally bring it on yourselves.

thats what the karma system is for , nobody here is saying the karma system needs to be removed , people are saying that there needs to be a punishment on open world pvp deaths to prevent people from abusing the system to punish somebody else for wanting to fight for a location.

for all intents and purposes people in the situation you are talking about should be punished by the karma system.

but people are trying to defend a grind location they fought to get and keep and getting punished for doing that the system is meant to encourage, fighting for a spot. because somebody else decided that if they cant get the location nobody can.

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Posted (edited)

thats what the karma system is for , nobody here is saying the karma system needs to be removed , people are saying that there needs to be a punishment on open world pvp deaths to prevent people from abusing the system to punish somebody else for wanting to fight for a location.

for all intents and purposes people in the situation you are talking about should be punished by the karma system.

but people are trying to defend a grind location they fought to get and keep and getting punished for doing that the system is meant to encourage, fighting for a spot. because somebody else decided that if they cant get the location nobody can.

I think what I encountered tonight, falls into harassment as the player in question wasn't fighting for the spot, he just wanted to farm lower level chars in Elrics.  Seeking them out (me especially) to essentially grief.

I have absolutely no problem with people legitimately fighting for and taking a spot.  If I'm at a farm location and someone flags on me and takes it, I'll try and take it back maybe once or twice if unsuccessful I leave or change channel, they won the spot fair enough.  Not everybody has that mind-set unfortunately.

I think there has to be an incremental scaling punishment after a certain amount of deaths vs the same character, however it's difficult to judge and implement as you don't want to punish players who are legitimately trying to fight for a spot back.  The big question is, how do differentiate between the Karma Bomber's and the legit players?

Edited by Cyrus Glitch

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Posted

I think what I encountered tonight, falls into harassment as the player in question wasn't fighting for the spot, he just wanted to farm lower level chars in Elrics.  Seeking them out (me especially) to essentially grief.

I have absolutely no problem with people legitimately fighting for and taking a spot.  If I'm at a farm location and someone flags on me and takes it, I'll try and take it back maybe once or twice if unsuccessful I leave or change channel, they won the spot fair enough.  Not everybody has that mind-set unfortunately.

I think there has to be an incremental scaling punishment after a certain amount of deaths vs the same character, however it's difficult to judge and implement as you don't want to punish players who are legitimately trying to fight for a spot back.  The big question is, how do differentiate between the Karma Bomber's and the legit players?

there are plenty of options regarding adding punishment on pvp death , reworking the karma system and its penalties etc..

its just a shame too many people dont seem to understand that  theres a difference between the griefing you experienced, and the fighting for a spot you described.

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Posted

Interesting pole. If this was a good representative of the whole population, then most don't grind on mobs. First vote says most rarely get attacked, second vote says everyone grinding gets attacked all the time. So grinding must be very infrequent for the majority.

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Posted (edited)

Interesting pole. If this was a good representative of the whole population, then most don't grind on mobs. First vote says most rarely get attacked, second vote says everyone grinding gets attacked all the time. So grinding must be very infrequent for the majority.

Yes, indeed. Next poll should be: "How often do you switch channels per day during grinding?"

Player versus player = active competition between those two or more player. 

Now, if one of the player is not active (off line, not interested or willing to fight)  ...

could you still say it is an equal fight where all participants are taking actively action? O.o

Joungf, I told you not to try to teach those stubborn, narrow minded people here anything. It is in vain. They won't learn or even expand their horizon. Just forget it. 

Edited by Zirkahn

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Posted (edited)

Yes, indeed. Next poll should be: "How often do you switch channels per day during grinding?"

Joungf, I told you not to try to teach those stubborn, narrow minded people here anything. It is in vain. They won't learn or even expand their horizon. Just forget it. 

"They won't learn or even expand their horizon". You sound like a young hipster who discovered buddhism last week without understanding the true meaning of what he has been teached. That's funny, it reminds me some students I had when I was teaching martial arts.

But these words carry no actual meaning. It's a premade sentence devoid of any actual sense regarding the current reflexion, which serves you as a crutch to reassure you of the illusional kindness and whiteness of your conscience. But the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
You're the most narrow minded here, because this assumption proves that you didn't even tried to read or contribute to the construction of the current mutual reflexion (because hey, that's what were doing here, even if it can be sometimes a little rough) while at the same time considering yourself above this.

Nice ego demonstration, as I've seen far too often.

but how could the game or the karmasystem differentiate the two? How could the game tell if someones actions are "justified" or should be punished or not in whoevers opinion, if not even the players can tell that apart?

With the system I proposed (of course, it needs to be refined), the defendor could be considered as active, so willing to fight and defend himself, from the moment he has depleted enough of the attacker's HP ( 15 %, 20 % ?), which would them auto flag him with some kind of "defendor" status and reajust the karma costs accordingly. That would help differentiate the ones willing to fight from the other.
But nonetheless, death penalties should apply at one point or another if a player keeps throwing himself voluntarely on an attacker's blade. to prevent abuses of the Karma system. Once again the probem is not the Karma, it's the death penalties, and death should be avoided by players, whatever the cause.

Player versus player = active competition between those two or more player. 

Now, if one of the player is not active (off line, not interested or willing to fight)  ...

could you still say it is an equal fight where all participants are taking actively action? O.o

That's where you put some bias in your analysis, because unconsciously you pour values in a notion which is originally neutral.
These values come from sport competition : fairness, balance, symetry, consent, knwon rules of engagement, equal grounds .... That's what you effectively find in some kinds of PvP activities, and that's often the PvP forms the most used in Esports games, which can make great games to play and to watch. because they meet the requirements of competitive sport.

But tho notion of PVP by itself is neutral. You know our dear William of Ockham :

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate

And that's what should be done here. PVP starts as soon as a player controlled character hits another one, and that's it. The analysis should be devoided of any kind of moral interpretations or assumptions, and that's the most factual interpretation you can have. Then the conditions of said event help determine what kind of PVP you're dealing with, as I told before.

Some of them follow the sport competition model. Some other don't, which brings them closer to the biological competition model.

You can like one form more than the other, to each his own there's no problem with that, but you can't prevent them to exist.

Edited by Capitaine Courage
Adding elements to answer Escapislm and Joungf questions
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Posted

there are plenty of options regarding adding punishment on pvp death , reworking the karma system and its penalties etc..

its just a shame too many people dont seem to understand that  theres a difference between the griefing you experienced, and the fighting for a spot you described.

but how could the game or the karmasystem differentiate the two? How could the game tell if someones actions are "justified" or should be punished or not in whoevers opinion, if not even the players can tell that apart?

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Posted

How is this thread actually still going? Just get off my spot.

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Posted

 

"They won't learn or even expand their horizon". You sound like a young hipster who discovered buddhism last week without understanding the true meaning of what he has been teached. That's funny, it reminds me some students I had when I was teaching martial arts.

But these words carry no actual meaning. It's a premade sentence devoid of any actual sense regarding the current reflexion, which serves you as a crutch to reassure you of the illusional kindness and whiteness of your conscience. But the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
You're the most narrow minded here, because this assumption proves that you didn't even tried to read or contribute to the construction of the current mutual reflexion (because hey, that's what were doing here, even if it can be sometimes a little rough) while at the same time considering yourself above this.

Nice ego demonstration, as I've seen far too often.

With the system I proposed (of course, it needs to be refined), the defendor could be considered as active, so willing to fight and defend himself, from the moment he has depleted enough of the attacker's HP ( 15 %, 20 % ?), which would them auto flag him with some kind of "defendor" status and reajust the karma costs accordingly. That would help differentiate the ones willing to fight from the other.
But nonetheless, death penalties should apply at one point or another if a player keeps throwing himself voluntarely on an attacker's blade. to prevent abuses of the Karma system. Once again the probem is not the Karma, it's the death penalties, and death should be avoided by players, whatever the cause.

That's where you put some bias in your analysis, because unconsciously you pour values in a notion which is originally neutral.
These values come from sport competition : fairness, balance, symetry, consent, knwon rules of engagement, equal grounds .... That's what you effectively find in some kinds of PvP activities, and that's often the PvP forms the most used in Esports games, which can make great games to play and to watch. because they meet the requirements of competitive sport.

But tho notion of PVP by itself is neutral. You know our dear William of Ockham :

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate

And that's what should be done here. PVP starts as soon as a player controlled character hits another one, and that's it. The analysis should be devoided of any kind of moral interpretations or assumptions, and that's the most factual interpretation you can have. Then the conditions of said event help determine what kind of PVP you're dealing with, as I told before.

Some of them follow the sport competition model. Some other don't, which brings them closer to the biological competition model.

You can like one form more than the other, to each his own there's no problem with that, but you can't prevent them to exist.

From Zirkahn's avatar I would assume that he is just trolling. ;) Just ignore him.

You have interesting views about this topic. It is a pleasure for me to discuss with you.

30. November --> there will be only one server per country but there will be still channels  ... hmmmm....  server merge or server separation?

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Posted (edited)

It isn't harassment until they've channel chased you to at least 3 different channels

Edited by PyroAmos

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Posted

but how could the game or the karmasystem differentiate the two? How could the game tell if someones actions are "justified" or should be punished or not in whoevers opinion, if not even the players can tell that apart?

one potential option is that have a significantly higher karma loss if you kill somebody who does not fight back (as in they never hit you) and a smaller karma loss against somebody who fights back, thus pk griefers take significantly larger karma hits (being able to kill significantly less people before going red without grinding karma) while losing less karma for fighting for locations.

one potential way of doing this is if somebody hits somebody who intentionally flags for pvp they get a pseudo flag effect. they cannot hit people who are not flagged (like the current regular flag system) and would only be able to hit people who are flagged, or have the same pseudo flag effect. and if somebody who  is intentionally flagged for pvp kills somebody in this state they would lose less (or potentially no karma) this would greatly insensitivize fighting for grind locations and also effectively make it impossible for people to do what is currently labeled as karma griefing, because in order to effectively hurt the other persons grind speed you would have to ks their mobs, and in hitting the mobs you would hit the person fighting to defend their grind location giving yourself the said psuedo flag thus partially/entirely removing the ability to karma grief.

other options are to simply add some kind of punishment on pvp death. be it a potentially long lasting significant debuff (like others have stated similar to gw1) or having forced respawns in incrementally further locations from the death. (for example if somebody tried to karma bomb you at basilisks they my potentially respawn in calpheon by the 5th death.

the game does not exactly need to intelligently identify griefing and contention but just have systems in place that punish griefing more significantly than fighting.

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Posted (edited)

one potential option is that have a significantly higher karma loss if you kill somebody who does not fight back (as in they never hit you) and a smaller karma loss against somebody who fights back, thus pk griefers take significantly larger karma hits (being able to kill significantly less people before going red without grinding karma) while losing less karma for fighting for locations.

one potential way of doing this is if somebody hits somebody who intentionally flags for pvp they get a pseudo flag effect. they cannot hit people who are not flagged (like the current regular flag system) and would only be able to hit people who are flagged, or have the same pseudo flag effect. and if somebody who  is intentionally flagged for pvp kills somebody in this state they would lose less (or potentially no karma) this would greatly insensitivize fighting for grind locations and also effectively make it impossible for people to do what is currently labeled as karma griefing, because in order to effectively hurt the other persons grind speed you would have to ks their mobs, and in hitting the mobs you would hit the person fighting to defend their grind location giving yourself the said psuedo flag thus partially/entirely removing the ability to karma grief.

other options are to simply add some kind of punishment on pvp death. be it a potentially long lasting significant debuff (like others have stated similar to gw1) or having forced respawns in incrementally further locations from the death. (for example if somebody tried to karma bomb you at basilisks they my potentially respawn in calpheon by the 5th death.

the game does not exactly need to intelligently identify griefing and contention but just have systems in place that punish griefing more significantly than fighting.

Constructive ideas. Well done. A cool down for deflag is very important here, too.

Edited by Joungf

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Posted

Constructive ideas. Well done. A cool down for deflag is very important here, too.

if you agree that karma bombing is bad , why does it seem like most of your posts are trying to flame people that say karma bombing is a problem?

nobody says blatant pking is good and/or should be rewarded they simply stated that , as i have myself, that pvp deaths should be punished to an extent aswell.

i mean, a extremely simple system of not having a penalty on pvp death, but having that pseudo flag system in place and if you are flagged by either type then if somebody kills you there is 0 karma loss would for the most part completely remove the karma bombing because somebody would have to attack the mobs to harass you and in place flagging themselves making themselves easy targets.

so , killing a unflagged target (somebody who hasnt even tried to fight back) may result in 100-150k karma loss (to heavily cut down on jackass's who just outright pk but are afraid of going red) , killing somebody with the pseudo flag would result in extremely little or no karma loss (maybe 0-10k per death)

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Posted

if you agree that karma bombing is bad , why does it seem like most of your posts are trying to flame people that say karma bombing is a problem?

nobody says blatant pking is good and/or should be rewarded they simply stated that , as i have myself, that pvp deaths should be punished to an extent aswell.

i mean, a extremely simple system of not having a penalty on pvp death, but having that pseudo flag system in place and if you are flagged by either type then if somebody kills you there is 0 karma loss would for the most part completely remove the karma bombing because somebody would have to attack the mobs to harass you and in place flagging themselves making themselves easy targets.

so , killing a unflagged target (somebody who hasnt even tried to fight back) may result in 100-150k karma loss (to heavily cut down on jackass's who just outright pk but are afraid of going red) , killing somebody with the pseudo flag would result in extremely little or no karma loss (maybe 0-10k per death)

I am sorry if it does seems so for you. I am always trying to be neutral and objective. 

I even did not started to argue with those who frequently compare this game with e.g. Lineage II which is a real game for all hardcore PvP- and PK-fans.

Well, yes, it is not a secret that this game is also made in Korea. It is also not a secret that the Asian gamer do have a different way they play and enjoy this sort of games.

And, yes, PA - DAUM - Kakao did a lot of changes to make also the player in EU and NA "a little bit" happier by implementing some "not really considered"  options / tweaks into the game mechanic (reason for this is to keep old player and get more new player --> more money). 

On the other side all hardcore survival OW sandbox PvP Pk player started to get angry - and unfortunately the "trolls" started to karma bomb.

Do I really flame against people saying that karma bombing is a problem?

For now don't you agree to just ignore such "trolls" and omit to flag and PK them until maybe the solution you provided will be implemented? 

Did I flamed again now? Or just hurt your feelings, maybe? Then I am sorry, really sorry.

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I am sorry if it does seems so for you. I am always trying to be neutral and objective. 

I even did not started to argue with those who frequently compare this game with e.g. Lineage II which is a real game for all hardcore PvP- and PK-fans.

Well, yes, it is not a secret that this game is also made in Korea. It is also not a secret that the Asian gamer do have a different way they play and enjoy this sort of games.

And, yes, PA - DAUM - Kakao did a lot of changes to make also the player in EU and NA "a little bit" happier by implementing some "not really considered"  options / tweaks into the game mechanic (reason for this is to keep old player and get more new player --> more money). 

On the other side all hardcore survival OW sandbox PvP Pk player started to get angry - and unfortunately the "trolls" started to karma bomb.

Do I really flame against people saying that karma bombing is a problem?

For now don't you agree to just ignore such "trolls" and omit to flag and PK them until maybe the solution you provided will be implemented? 

Did I flamed again now? Or just hurt your feelings, maybe? Then I am sorry, really sorry.

I try to read what you write but after about ten seconds I just can't stop staring and smiling at your avatar picture. It's so weird.... But cute... But mostly weird. 

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Posted

Hi all,

I'm new to the game, is there any way to disable PvP mode?

I play 1-2hr everyday, finally got to L51, but constantly getting killed by the same witch at Trina Fort for for past few days straight 5~6 times every day despite PM him nicely to stop killing me with 2 hits from magic arrows, probably killed my horse too while I left it in the fort out level grinding in the field because it got a death count even though I parked it far away from red dots :\

rather frustrating to level... *sigh*

 

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I try to read what you write but after about ten seconds I just can't stop staring and smiling at your avatar picture. It's so weird.... But cute... But mostly weird. 

Yes, indeed. It is the cute and weird new born monster prince in the movie "Monster hunt".

 

0013.gif

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Yes, indeed. It is the cute and weird new born monster prince in the movie "Monster hunt".

 

0013.gif

Making a mental note to add this to the watch list now. 

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Posted

dat looks lik a walkin butt KUDOS

Butt? Butt. Butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt buuuuutt! Hahahahahah!

0004.gif

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Posted

Hi all,

I'm new to the game, is there any way to disable PvP mode?

I play 1-2hr everyday, finally got to L51, but constantly getting killed by the same witch at Trina Fort for for past few days straight 5~6 times every day despite PM him nicely to stop killing me with 2 hits from magic arrows, probably killed my horse too while I left it in the fort out level grinding in the field because it got a death count even though I parked it far away from red dots :\

rather frustrating to level... *sigh*

 

Sadly there's no way to protect yourself from gankers. What I advise you to do is to switch the channel after 1-2 deaths or just keep doing your things, at some point attackers will stop. Just don't kill steal nor jump in front of the attacker asking to be killed. If your horse gained a death, it means it was killed by NPC (mob). Player kills doesn't count.

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I am sorry if it does seems so for you. I am always trying to be neutral and objective. 

I even did not started to argue with those who frequently compare this game with e.g. Lineage II which is a real game for all hardcore PvP- and PK-fans.

Well, yes, it is not a secret that this game is also made in Korea. It is also not a secret that the Asian gamer do have a different way they play and enjoy this sort of games.

And, yes, PA - DAUM - Kakao did a lot of changes to make also the player in EU and NA "a little bit" happier by implementing some "not really considered"  options / tweaks into the game mechanic (reason for this is to keep old player and get more new player --> more money). 

On the other side all hardcore survival OW sandbox PvP Pk player started to get angry - and unfortunately the "trolls" started to karma bomb.

Do I really flame against people saying that karma bombing is a problem?

For now don't you agree to just ignore such "trolls" and omit to flag and PK them until maybe the solution you provided will be implemented? 

Did I flamed again now? Or just hurt your feelings, maybe? Then I am sorry, really sorry.

you dident hurt my feelings , i just think its absurd to say that people are asses for wanted to fight for a location in a game that advertises its open world pvp (fighting for grind locations)

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A few channels for PvE only (no PvP allowed at all) would be nice.

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