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Kutum accuracy test - UPDATED Oct. 12th: kutum vs axion vs vangertz

86 posts in this topic

Posted

See my update ;)

I didn't care about that, and there is no reason to believe accuracy given from accessories would be any different than accuracy given from armour/weapons. Tests are time consuming and boring.

Ruuy's performed only 25 hits, which are most definitely not enough to draw any kind of conclusion. nor indication honestly I had streaks of 3 hits out of 3 for 5-6 times in a row with axion, then several 0,1,0,1,... 

25 armor breaks just to clarify, so about 75 max possible hits in total, but yes I agree that this won't be enough and will need a larger sample size that you did, but it does give us a rough idea of how it is with certain gear vs evasion. Yea It's hard to get people, let alone motivate yourself to hit someone 100+ times to do tests so thanks much for the additional tests you did. :)

It does somewhat tie into my testing from what you did with UPDATE#2, especially if you'll add Bheg's gloves. If Bheg's gloves was added to your testing and if it did have 10 accuracy, it will then add roughly about 10% to your results, so it'll be something like:

Axion+Bhegs - 68%

Kutum+Bhegs - 73%

Vangertz+Bhegs -90%

This is quite similar to my test and experience against an evasion gear target, even if we had slightly different setups.

If we add red coral (6 accuracy) to Kutum+Bhegs, then it'll roughly be 79%, which is very close to having just vangertz by itself with no bhegs (80%).

So i guess now we're heading into some good conclusions here. :)

 
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Posted

25 armor breaks just to clarify, so about 75 max possible hits in total, but yes I agree that this won't be enough and will need a larger sample size that you did, but it does give us a rough idea of how it is with certain gear vs evasion. Yea It's hard to get people, let alone motivate yourself to hit someone 100+ times to do tests so thanks much for the additional tests you did. :)

It does somewhat tie into my testing from what you did with UPDATE#2, especially if you'll add Bheg's gloves. If Bheg's gloves was added to your testing and if it did have 10 accuracy, it will then add roughly about 10% to your results, so it'll be something like:

Axion+Bhegs - 68%

Kutum+Bhegs - 73%

Vangertz+Bhegs -90%

This is quite similar to my test and experience against an evasion gear target, even if we had slightly different setups.

If we add red coral (6 accuracy) to Kutum+Bhegs, then it'll roughly be 79%, which is very close to having just vangertz by itself with no bhegs (80%).

So i guess now we're heading into some good conclusions here. :)

 

Wow those numbers, never seen before. It seems you really put much effort in it calculating. I'm just glad people actually read all the answers from others too.

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Posted

Wow those numbers, never seen before. It seems you really put much effort in it calculating. I'm just glad people actually read all the answers from others too.

Haha sorry if I didn't mention your post or what others said since I somewhat said the same thing you did. But yea what matters now is how we'll setup our gear based on these figures. I guess its really up to you if you want to sacrifice AP over accuracy or vice versa as you mentioned earlier. I'll probably just stick to getting one, or maybe two TRI red coral and get a TRI kzarka to make up for my accuracy. I'll also probably hang on to a vangertz too, even with Bheg's, and swap to it whenever I come across full evasion targets, which I believe you'll only come across 5-10% of the time from my experience so far. It's good that we somewhat get a build diversity going on in certain situations. 

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Posted (edited)

Doesn't enhancing gear provide hidden evasion buff increase? A Ranger did the test awhile back and stated enhancing your gear even to +15 increases hidden evasion buffs, so P2 gear even at TRI Grunil would have some evasion, this would also explain why u have such a mix results in ur first testing of hit rate as it's all over the place with evasion factored in.

Enhancing gear and player level give hidden evasion as far as we know. However, this does not influence the results I posted, since the gear and level of the target did not change between the various parts of the tests. Hence, the comparison between no offnad/kutum in the first test and between axion/kutum/vangertz in the second are still valid, regardless of the amount of hidden accuracy given by gear/level.

Edited by insert_brain
Fixed

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Posted

Enhancing gear and player level give hidden accuracy as far as we know. However, this does not influence the results I posted, since the gear and level of the target did not change between the various parts of the tests. Hence, the comparison between no offnad/kutum in the first test and between axion/kutum/vangertz in the second are still valid, regardless of the amount of hidden accuracy given by gear/level.

Enhancing gear? Do you mean all gear or specific gear that increases accuracy as an enhance stat? Because I've never heard of "all" gear giving accuracy via enhancements, and that player level isn't that significant to be provide enough of an accuracy boost as well.

For reference this is the thread I'm speaking about with the armor enhancement giving hidden evasion buff http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/52405-accuracy-explained-updated-04062016-read-the-first-post-third-document-released/&page=1

 

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Posted

Enhancing gear? Do you mean all gear or specific gear that increases accuracy as an enhance stat? Because I've never heard of "all" gear giving accuracy via enhancements, and that player level isn't that significant to be provide enough of an accuracy boost as well.

For reference this is the thread I'm speaking about with the armor enhancement giving hidden evasion buff http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/52405-accuracy-explained-updated-04062016-read-the-first-post-third-document-released/&page=1

 

I meant evasion, I just mis-typed. Fixed

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Posted

25 armor breaks just to clarify, so about 75 max possible hits in total, but yes I agree that this won't be enough and will need a larger sample size that you did, but it does give us a rough idea of how it is with certain gear vs evasion. Yea It's hard to get people, let alone motivate yourself to hit someone 100+ times to do tests so thanks much for the additional tests you did. :)

It does somewhat tie into my testing from what you did with UPDATE#2, especially if you'll add Bheg's gloves. If Bheg's gloves was added to your testing and if it did have 10 accuracy, it will then add roughly about 10% to your results, so it'll be something like:

Axion+Bhegs - 68%

Kutum+Bhegs - 73%

Vangertz+Bhegs -90%

This is quite similar to my test and experience against an evasion gear target, even if we had slightly different setups.

If we add red coral (6 accuracy) to Kutum+Bhegs, then it'll roughly be 79%, which is very close to having just vangertz by itself with no bhegs (80%).

So i guess now we're heading into some good conclusions here. :)

 

is this with kzarka or liverto? Anyone test % difference of accuracy between the two? I once heard the number 15% thrown around but I am not sure

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Posted (edited)

is this with kzarka or liverto? Anyone test % difference of accuracy between the two? I once heard the number 15% thrown around but I am not sure

The test I did was done with TRI Liverto, while insert_brain was with TRI Kzarka, so the numbers I mentioned is based off kzarka accuracy. For liverto it will be slightly lower, so I'd subtract around 5%ish from the insert_brain's figures. There's been a lot of accuracy tests done with Kzarka vs Liverto ages ago and you should try look them up. Can't recall the exact source, but from what I remember, the difference between them is small, like around 5%+ accuracy.

Edited by Ruuy
mistake

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Posted (edited)

The test I did was done with TRI Liverto, while insert_brain was with TRI Kzarka, so the numbers I mentioned is based off kzarka accuracy. For liverto it will be slightly lower, so I'd subtract around 5%ish from the insert_brain's figures. There's been a lot of accuracy tests done with Kzarka vs Liverto ages ago and you should try look them up. Can't recall the exact source, but from what I remember, the difference between them is small, like around 5%+ accuracy.

so you're says every 1 accuracy is increasing somewhere around 1%?

 

Also, does AP have anything to do with accuracy increase? I.e. 50AP also increases accuracy or something like that 

Edited by Mixar

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Posted

so you're says every 1 accuracy is increasing somewhere around 1%?

 

Also, does AP have anything to do with accuracy increase? I.e. 50AP also increases accuracy or something like that 

According to recent tests, yes, 1 accuracy is roughly 1% hit rate. 

As far as I know, AP has nothing to do with accuracy nor it increases in anyway. They are both completely different stats. Basically: AP = Damage, Accuracy = Hit rate.

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Posted

According to recent tests, yes, 1 accuracy is roughly 1% hit rate. 

As far as I know, AP has nothing to do with accuracy nor it increases in anyway. They are both completely different stats. Basically: AP = Damage, Accuracy = Hit rate.

wow so kutum has about 5 accuracy? Damn, it really is about having that ignore resist then

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Posted

wow so kutum has about 5 accuracy? Damn, it really is about having that ignore resist then

If it had too much accuracy it would completely outshine every offhand in-game when you think about it

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Posted (edited)

If it had too much accuracy it would completely outshine every offhand in-game when you think about it

that's fair; anyone know the actual AP difference between tri kutum & nouver? Was it 14?

Edited by Mixar

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Posted

If it had too much accuracy it would completely outshine every offhand in-game when you think about it

It should ? Its fkn boss gear. Same like Dandelion, it outshines every awakening weapon in game.

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Posted (edited)

that's fair; anyone know the actual AP difference between tri kutum & nouver? Was it 14?

kutum is 25 ap @ tri, nouver is 39 ap @ tri

basically you want both offhands

It should ? Its fkn boss gear. Same like Dandelion, it outshines every awakening weapon in game.

It already outshines them anyway. The stats you get on kutum are great. It's widely used in both regions now and even with nouver it will still be used in certain situations like region wars. (Depending on class, kutum is superior in wars on berserkers for the most part even vs nouver)

Edited by Catclaw

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Posted

It already outshines them anyway. The stats you get on kutum are great. It's widely used in both regions now and even with nouver it will still be used in certain situations like region wars. (Depending on class, kutum is superior in wars on berserkers for the most part even vs nouver)

Just with one difference, vang x kutum providing almost identical damage even with vang`s 1 slot (so 5ap less).

And i didnt noticed any difference using 10% ignore or not.

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Posted (edited)

Just with one difference, vang x kutum providing almost identical damage even with vang`s 1 slot (so 5ap less).

And i didnt noticed any difference using 10% ignore or not.

It's very hard to notice 10% ignore. I run 30% ignore. 2 prec gems in my weapon that gives 4 accuracy and 20% ignore res. 30% is much more easy to test as I grab most people easily.

Damage isn't everything as-well, berserkers in KR run tanky support for region wars so they use kutum

Edited by Catclaw

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Posted

Just with one difference, vang x kutum providing almost identical damage even with vang`s 1 slot (so 5ap less).

And i didnt noticed any difference using 10% ignore or not.

I have considerably higher damage output with Kutum compared to Vangertz. I have DUO red coral earring, PRI Tree belt, TRI Bheg's, TRI Kutum, and DUO Kzarka as items that provide accuracy and I have no problems with hit rate. 2x BMC Precision in Kzarka as well. So if you just build some accuracy on accessories, you can go Kutum just fine

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Posted

I have considerably higher damage output with Kutum compared to Vangertz. I have DUO red coral earring, PRI Tree belt, TRI Bheg's, TRI Kutum, and DUO Kzarka as items that provide accuracy and I have no problems with hit rate. 2x BMC Precision in Kzarka as well. So if you just build some accuracy on accessories, you can go Kutum just fine

I have more than enoug acc.

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Posted (edited)

I have considerably higher damage output with Kutum compared to Vangertz. I have DUO red coral earring, PRI Tree belt, TRI Bheg's, TRI Kutum, and DUO Kzarka as items that provide accuracy and I have no problems with hit rate. 2x BMC Precision in Kzarka as well. So if you just build some accuracy on accessories, you can go Kutum just fine

but if you were running duo witches pri basil and a vangertz , you'd probably be doing more damage.

the issue is the amount of accuracy you get does not compensate the amount of ap you'd lose compared to a nouver for example. 

the ONLY thing that kutum has realistically over nouver is 20 dp vs 13 ap (if you assume nobody ever goes tet on their boss offhand) so unless they made 1 dp roughly equivalent to 1 ap value wise, a nouver is always going to outshine a kutum. because of how valuable the stats are and can be. on 15-pen kutum gets (for reference this will be ap/dp) 1/2-1/2-3/3-1/2-1/2 , and nouver gets 3-3-6-3-3 so while both get the same amount of sheet stats nouver is getting the significantly more valuable stat. so again unless they made dp significantly more valuable to the point that the dp and accuracy gained on kutum balanced out the ap loss then kutum is just not that equivalent to nouver.

yes its better than the green shields because its a boss item its meant to be. how would you feel if a krea sword was just as good as a zarka.

long story short kutum should have more accuracy than it does now (AGAIN if it even has any working accuracy now because there have been several tests indicated the possibility that kutum is giving 0 accuracy). but it should not exactly give the same accuracy as a vangertz shield for obvious reasons. but even considering bhegs only giving accuracy up to +15 and not on pri~ i'd like to think that +15 bhegs and tri kutum (assuming kutum is meant to have increased accuracy past 15) would have a combined accuracy maybe within 10% of the vangertz accuracy.

the ONLY thing the kutum has thats special is the ignore all res. which is great and all , but that is for the most part countered by the all res a nouver has. (they do different things but can roughly equate to being equal in value)

p.s. i dont want to get into a week long argument over how ignore res is worth so much more than all res because it is entirely situational and the fact is they are even numbers both affecting all types of cc so if thats going to be your argument for everybody's sake please keep it to yourself.

Edited by Burhead

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Posted (edited)

-

Vangertz is doing consistenly same or bit higher damage OVERALL (depends on opponent) . Im not picking up rangers and sorcs, semi geared players and squishies. This is not relevant now. Im talking whole aspect of PvP (node wars, gvgs, 3vs3 etc)

Yes, Kutum DOES more damage on average players but for me, Vangertz is way to go now. I was testing both shields in red battlefield for whole day and my conclusion is that i met a lot of people there from my server, about which i know they have really good gear and im im able to even CC them more with stacking acc rather than 10% ignore.

I noticed that i can CC people much more frequent with Vangertz because CC is also realted to accuracy. And i have 19acc on top of Vangertz. Survivability is +- same with both shields. I can equip Kutum just because of squishies but once there is someone geared, Kutum is just useless without accuracy stacking.

Im using kutum now for PVE. And for me its just another rednose. Its not Axion on steroids, thats Nouver. Kutum is Kite with bit more AP. Vangertz is somewhere in the middle and still best IMO.

I threw like 250mil to upgrade Kutum, i was really excited , i was Kutum fanboy but to be honest, this shieldis biggest dissapoitment for me in BDO right now.

Edited by Chors

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Posted

Vangertz is doing consistenly same or bit higher damage OVERALL (depends on opponent) . Im not picking up rangers and sorcs, semi geared players and squishies. This is not relevant now. Im talking whole aspect of PvP (node wars, gvgs, 3vs3 etc)

Yes, Kutum DOES more damage on average players but for me, Vangertz is way to go now. I was testing both shields in red battlefield for whole day and my conclusion is that i met a lot of people there from my server, about which i know they have really good gear and im im able to even CC them more with stacking acc rather than 10% ignore.

I noticed that i can CC people much more frequent with Vangertz because CC is also realted to accuracy. And i have 19acc on top of Vangertz. Survivability is +- same with both shields. I can equip Kutum just because of squishies but once there is someone geared, Kutum is just useless without accuracy stacking.

Im using kutum now for PVE. And for me its just another rednose. Its not Axion on steroids, thats Nouver. Kutum is Kite with bit more AP. Vangertz is somewhere in the middle and still best IMO.

I threw like 250mil to upgrade Kutum, i was really excited , i was Kutum fanboy but to be honest, this shieldis biggest dissapoitment for me in BDO right now.

Imo, like you also said, cc skills are related to accuracy. To hit a cc skill you have to hit your enemy first -> accuracy needed just like dmg skills. And AFTER this hit/miss calculation comes the cc calculation, again a gambling cc/cc ignore vs resists. And that's why more accuracy is better than more cc ignore I believe.

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Posted (edited)

Solar Flare > Balance Strike > Flow:Hilt Strike > Pulverize > Flow:Armor Break > Merciless > Overwhelm > Grave Digging - [Weapon Swap] - Grab - [Weapon Swap] - Flow:Slashing the Dead 

Performed this combo few times on warrior, 2x on Valk. Results below. And dont tell me its RNG. 

DUO Kutum vs DUO Vangertz, 15ap difference. My accuracy : 1x DUO Red coral, Taritas bonus, Guild bonus, 2x precision in mainhand (19acc total)

So thats what i was talking about...geared players where difference is huge. 

------------------------

Target - (LVL 58 Warrior, 273DP) : 3227HP ,full boss armor, TRI Muskans, 10evasion in helmet

HP Left using Kutum : floating from 379-656-1143 etc. Basically, roulette.

HP Left using Vangertz : constatnly 200-209

Target (LVL 58 Valkyrie, 296DP) : 3297HP, Full boss gear, TRI Muskans, 10 evasion in helmet, TET KUTUM

HP Left using Kutum : 1412 / 1613 

HP Left using Vangertz : 751 / 800

EDIT : 10x armor break on that Valk. 5 x total miss with Kutum, 2-3 hits constantly with Vangertz.

 

Edited by Chors

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Posted

Solar Flare > Balance Strike > Flow:Hilt Strike > Pulverize > Flow:Armor Break > Merciless > Overwhelm > Grave Digging - [Weapon Swap] - Grab - [Weapon Swap] - Flow:Slashing the Dead 

Performed this combo few times on warrior, 2x on Valk. Results below. And dont tell me its RNG. 

DUO Kutum vs DUO Vangertz, 15ap difference. My accuracy : 1x DUO Red coral, Taritas bonus, Guild bonus, 2x precision in mainhand (19acc total)

So thats what i was talking about...geared players where difference is huge. 

------------------------

Target - (LVL 58 Warrior, 273DP) : 3227HP ,full boss armor, TRI Muskans, 10evasion in helmet

HP Left using Kutum : floating from 379-656-1143 etc. Basically, roulette.

HP Left using Vangertz : constatnly 200-209

Target (LVL 58 Valkyrie, 296DP) : 3297HP, Full boss gear, TRI Muskans, 10 evasion in helmet

HP Left using Kutum : 1412 / 1613 

HP Left using Vangertz : 751 / 800

EDIT : 10x armor break on that Valk. 5 x total miss with Kutum, 2-3 hits constantly with Vangertz.

 

Whole system has to be revamped. No one wants hidden stats and gambling in pvp. Yes, it's ok with cc and resist that's something acceptable. But not with the general hitrate. Repeal all accuracy and evasion from pvp completely and make them pure pve stats - Accuracy with some type of armor piercing and evasion as it is but stronger for pve. All problems solved. Same goes with DP, needs revamp too.

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Posted

U know that u have to count ressistances to check the dmg like that Chors? One ressist on a stif and the whole combo is dead... For me atm kutum outshines vang, I wouldnt go back to any other shield. Ofc I will get nouver though... (take into consideration that i have tri bheg + tet zarka + accuracy gem in bhegs)

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