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The sense of grind in bdo

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Posted (edited)

I was reading A TOPIC on massively overpowered asking players / ex players what advice would they give to the younger self about mmos, well, most of the answer ended up to make me think about the time i'm spending on Black Desert..
I mean, one in particular says something like "do not waste time on a game that isn't funny"
Now, what keeps me active in this game is not what i'm doing, but what i'd like to do at the end of the grind tunnel i'm in.
The question is: when the hell will this tunnel end? and does it really shiny that much what awaits me at the end?
The fact is that outside big guilds (where i can't join because i study and work) there's not that much of pvp or "endgame" content being played.
Let's face it, the only "active" funny things you can do once you're geared are guild wars, node wars and red battlefield.

Guild wars are more unique then rare
Node wars.. ok, once per week... 
Red Battlefield.. no thanks, not with that balance.

The point is, many of this content would be way more played if they were more accessible from casual players, i mean, there would be way more pvp and wars if normal players could afford more easily the equip to go! but the grind to level up and to gear up here is insane, or like someone said "it's cancer".

I know korean games are more grind than actual fun (unless you consider grind a funny thing) but man, this is like 99% farm for gear and 1% use of that gear 
And that 1% use of gear is 0,9% = grind faster 0,1% pvp


I mean, if the focus of the game really was to pvp for node (resources and wealth) or for fun (random pk - battlefield) then grind would be useless because the more people you gather to fight, the more the fun you make out of a battle.
In other words, the goal of kakao gaming is to keep the players ingame for the most time possible, they shouldn't care if they are grinding or having fun (it's not the same thing unless you are korean) so then why did they build the entire game around grindy mechanics? because lack of other content / balance / ??

i really can't find any other explanation, grind = lack of other things to keep players logged.
Less grind  = accessible endgame = more people logged to play ACTIVELY = less need of grind.
Now the question is: would BDO stay alive without grind?
I think yes, it has plenty of "pve" content like life skills, tradings.. and so on, and it has a lot of potential in pvp battle!

So why the hell does it focus so much on such a cancerous way to play?


EDIT: My english suck and @PanpanTheGreat found an other way to explain this thread

Everyone grinds pushed by the motivation of "what's on the other side of the tunnel" as you said.

(A) - Now everyone gets tired of grinding at some point, coz we are human not robot and eventually we get bored of doing the same thing over and over again. The thing is, not everyone gets tired of grinding at the same speed and depending on how close they got to "see the light". Now that's the first statement and i will suppose everyone agree on that.

(B) - PvP is a collective activity, whereas grinding you can do solo. PvP being a collective activity it's impacted directly by the population, much more than Grinding coz it's solo. The same rule we described in (A) applies to PvP, at some point we will get bored of it. That's the second statement.

Now when you take in consideration (A) and (B) there is one massive difference between PvP and Grinding. While some people will leave the game it won't affect as much the grinding population because grinding is solo, so it's less noticeable for them and the player base can renew constantly, some leave / some join.
As we said PvP has more social aspect to it, and is going to get impacted directly by people leaving for the following reason:

- People will lose their PvP partners / opponents, which will affect them more for PvP, when Grinding is a solo activity.

- While people are leaving they are not directly replaced in the PvP universe because it takes time to gear up (this is your point kinda). So a game purely based on this kind of system is going to die little by little.

Now the solution you are giving us would be to make it faster / easier to gear up , so that the player base stay constant in the PvP universe. Whereas this is truely going to work for a time, according to (A) we will still get bored at some point, and since we are more people on the same lifetime/experience-level in the game (coz it s easier to gear up everyone end up at the same point etc.); it's more likely that we see massive departure of players [coz (A) & (B)] that will be harder to fill in players/customer pool being limited too. This meaning dead game.

 

So in my opinion you are right to say that we need to take into consideration the accessibility of this game's feature to everyone, but the real problem is not the grinding system, it s the renewal of content. That's always the issue in all the MMO i have played. You wouldn't have to worry about renewing the player base that much in the first place if there was enough interesting new content to keep them entertained, and i m not talking about some lame update which will last 1-2 month.

But in the end we will always get back to (A) and people will leave, what matters is will the content be interesting enough so that more people join than leave

Nowaday people are harder to satisfy than before, and the lack of imagination to create interesting content, lean companies to the easy solution of creating extended lifetime with grinding and RNG coz it's more profitable for them. They prefer to create a new game every year adding +1 to the number behind the name and making it look fancy, even if we always get served the same things in the end.

I hoppe you read me coz we are tired of that to stay polite (At least i know i am)  
 

The fact is that BDO could actually stand with half the Grind it has now, it has so much content and potential that railing on grind to keep people online is an insult to itself and it's capacity to involve players in a living world, as any mmo should aim to do.

My point is not to remove grind, it's bdo, not gw2 we are talking about!
it's to make it less significant, and move the core of the game from grinding to socializing and fighting!

Edited by Mortivoro
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Posted

If you want to succeed in this game you need to have no life, it's simple. That won't change.

Quit your job and go to university and play all day and night and study 1 day for tests whilst living on loans / parent's money.

That is the key to success in this game.

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Posted (edited)

I can master every life skill in a week tops, the only point to level up life skill is getting silver, and grinding makes more silver.

The only reason to make silver is to destroy accessories and fail enchants. So basically is pointless.

This game will not last, new players will come once it goes f2p but game will never be healthier than it is now.

No future cause of crap content and no brains to improve the game. Yeah, Margoria is pure crap and in a few days we will know what happens with dark elf...

Edited by crosspath

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Posted (edited)

This topic seems familiar. 

It's not a new concept. Black desert forces players to grind for HOURS every day or spend a LOT of money to be competitive.

AND then you usually only get about a hour of competitive PVP a week. THAT'S THE GAME.

It's designed to NEVER END, so you have to keep grinding or throwing money at it. (BUT "it is pretty and the combat is fun")

Edited by Thinker
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Posted

If you want to succeed in this game you need to have no life, it's simple. That won't change.

Quit your job and go to university and play all day and night and study 1 day for tests whilst living on loans / parent's money.

That is the key to success in this game.

i'm waiting for the person that only read the title and comes here to say "I'm full TET and i only play 1hr per day, because I know what to do" that's more or less like "Do you want to enlarge you p..."

I know how to "succeed" in this game, i just wonder why the hell the enormous part of the game called GRIND has to exist. it really makes no sense.

If it was "grind to have 10AP more than me or you" it wouldn't really change that much and pvp content would be more played, even outside the guilds, but here it's "grind to become god and slaughter and entire army alone 

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i'm waiting for the person that only read the title and comes here to say "I'm full TET and i only play 1hr per day, because I know what to do" that's more or less like "Do you want to enlarge you p..."

I know how to "succeed" in this game, i just wonder why the hell the enormous part of the game called GRIND has to exist. it really makes no sense.

If it was "grind to have 10AP more than me or you" it wouldn't really change that much and pvp content would be more played, even outside the guilds, but here it's "grind to become god and slaughter and entire army alone 

I can't barely manage my workers in one hour (76)... But i am sure that some forum warriors can grind 6 hours in one hour...

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Realistically, games like this should be against the law.

Some people can't help, but waste their money on games like this. (you know the people) 

AND not all of them can afford it. If only their were a U.S. agency devoted to checking into shifty online practices.

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Posted (edited)

Realistically, games like this should be against the law.

Some people can't help, but waste their money on games like this. (you know the people) 

AND not all of them can afford it. If only their were a U.S. agency devoted to checking into shifty online practices.

I wrote to Pegi once about Aion and one event that was like a slot machine, and children spending tons of money on it while Aion is Pegi 12!!!!!!!!

They basically said "Nothing wrong", i even linked a video showing one guy spending 100 euros in around 6 minutes time in event coins...


Corruption.

PS: Btw Aion has that event again right now xD

Edited by crosspath
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Posted

i'm waiting for the person that only read the title and comes here to say "I'm full TET and i only play 1hr per day, because I know what to do" that's more or less like "Do you want to enlarge you p..."

I know how to "succeed" in this game, i just wonder why the hell the enormous part of the game called GRIND has to exist. it really makes no sense.

If it was "grind to have 10AP more than me or you" it wouldn't really change that much and pvp content would be more played, even outside the guilds, but here it's "grind to become god and slaughter and entire army alone 

Haha yea well you of course won't ever find that person and I get what you're saying :) 

It's what the game was built on , it wouldn't be it without it. I sort of wish this game came with equalized gear similar to guild wars 2 as an end game, but then the PvE grind kids wouldn't be able to succeed in PvP , they'd get destroyed due to the combat requiring a sense of skill play in order to hold spots instead of stacking accuracy and evasion and smashing their face on the keyboard. This game model is perfect for both players at the cost of wasting hours upon hours of time. All you need is time which is obviously fine for a lot of people.

PvE players can dominate in PvP through use of passive gear stat padding , PvP players can also dominate PvP because they PvP and also have the time to grind the gear for PvP to do the same thing.

To remove the grind for gear aspect, you would remove the thrill of it all. As crazy as it sounds, they made "grinding" make sense in this game given the game's context.

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Posted (edited)

I can master every life skill in a week tops, the only point to level up life skill is getting silver, and grinding makes more silver.

The only reason to make silver is to destroy accessories and fail enchants. So basically is pointless.

This game will not last, new players will come once it goes f2p but game will never be healthier than it is now.

No future cause of crap content and no brains to improve the game. Yeah, Margoria is pure crap and in a few days we will know what happens with dark elf...

That's obvious

People who like fishing could actually buy a fishing simulator / go fish in real life
People who like farming... well, there's plenty of farming simulators out there..

The only reason this games makes you play this content is to make silver and fail stacks and upgrades (if you praised enough the rng god)
My fear is that Kakao knows this contents are not funny and only played because you HAVE to if you want to "succeed"
If they were to make the game "easier" in terms of grind and time spent per enhance, all those contents would be forgotten by most people.

My question really is, how much does the shiny graphic drug effect lats in new players? 
Dark Elf surely is a nice bait for those looking to return/reroll a new char. but i'm pretty sure that like all the eye candy content, it's effect will last very few time

Edited by Mortivoro

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Haha yea well you of course won't ever find that person and I get what you're saying :) 

It's what the game was built on , it wouldn't be it without it. I sort of wish this game came with equalized gear similar to guild wars 2 as an end game, but then the PvE grind kids wouldn't be able to succeed in PvP , they'd get destroyed due to the combat requiring a sense of skill play in order to hold spots instead of stacking accuracy and evasion and smashing their face on the keyboard. This game model is perfect for both players at the cost of wasting hours upon hours of time. All you need is time which is obviously fine for a lot of people.

PvE players can dominate in PvP through use of passive gear stat padding , PvP players can also dominate PvP because they PvP and also have the time to grind the gear for PvP to do the same thing.

To remove the grind for gear aspect, you would remove the thrill of it all. As crazy as it sounds, they made "grinding" make sense in this game given the game's context.

Main problem is that is easier seeing a harcore player getting bored and leaving than a new player staying for long with the amount of WORK they need to endure to not even catch up. No future.

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Realistically, games like this should be against the law.

Some people can't help, but waste their money on games like this. (you know the people) 

AND not all of them can afford it. If only their were a U.S. agency devoted to checking into shifty online practices.

so...it should be illegal.... because some people have no self control.....

Instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions, a company doing nothing legally wrong should have their game shut down...to avoid people having to practice self control....

ok then

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so...it should be illegal.... because some people have no self control.....

Instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions, a company doing nothing legally wrong should have their game shut down...to avoid people having to practice self control....

ok then

You know how meth is addicting and illegal? You know how McDonalds got sued (Dumb, I know), but following that they had to regulate how they marketed food and it's content? 

You can google how China just forced MMOs to release all RNG values in an effort to be more up front with the consumer.

SO... That's what I want. I'd like Kakao to be more open with what their game really is. I'd like more information of game mechanics and RNG values. 

BECAUSE ... If a game developer is quiet about how they operate, all it means is they're sneaking up on you and they don't care to bring lube.

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I wrote to Pegi once about Aion and one event that was like a slot machine, and children spending tons of money on it while Aion is Pegi 12!!!!!!!!
They basically said "Nothing wrong", i even linked a video showing one guy spending 100 euros in around 6 minutes time in event coins...


Corruption.

PS: Btw Aion has that event again right now xD

I played Aion before the dark ages of Gameforge and i feel what you're saying.

But more than money here i'm thinking about time, you can spend 100€ now and think it's just money, you can get it back from work, from hobby, from sports.. there's a lot of way to get back the money you spent on a videogame.
But the time, let's talk about the time this game asks, and for what!


100 time is spitted this way (imho)
- 30% afk activities (workers too)
- 50% active grind (mobs)
- 10% Scroll and world bosses
- 10% PROFIT of what you are doing fro months

That's insane, there's no job that will give you back that time you spent. and there's no one who will convince you it was for a good reason.
If you play an E-Sports or games like Gdr where you have to cooperate in dungeon with other players that's a different thing, at least you socialize, you learn something, you have fun even if you lose / don't drop-

Black desert almost force you to Solo farm and grind for that 10% of competitive gameplay..

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Posted (edited)

You know how meth is addicting and illegal? You know how McDonalds got sued (Dumb, I know), but following that they had to regulate how they marketed food and it's content? 

You can google how China just forced MMOs to release all RNG values in an effort to be more up front with the consumer.

SO... That's what I want. I'd like Kakao to be more open with what their game really is. I'd like more information of game mechanics and RNG values. 

BECAUSE ... If a game developer is quiet about how they operate, all it means is they're sneaking up on you and they don't care to bring lube.

I am sure that enchanting success rates went down post artisans on shop, they have not given any information till now, that won't change unless they are forced, and information can be forged.

Edited by crosspath
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Posted (edited)

THANK YOU FOR THE RELATED ANSWER!

I know it's hard to stay on topic when threads like this spawns like mushrooms after a rainy day, but please, keep it on.

Edited by Mortivoro

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Posted (edited)

You know how meth is addicting and illegal? You know how McDonalds got sued (Dumb, I know), but following that they had to regulate how they marketed food and it's content? 

You can google how China just forced MMOs to release all RNG values in an effort to be more up front with the consumer.

SO... That's what I want. I'd like Kakao to be more open with what their game really is. I'd like more information of game mechanics and RNG values. 

BECAUSE ... If a game developer is quiet about how they operate, all it means is they're sneaking up on you and they don't care to bring lube.

video games are not meth....wtf 

you are srsly trying to equate video games with illegal drugs as a way to justify outlawing game design that you don't like. How can you criminalize the non criminal based on huge leaps in logic?

 

Bdo does not create a physical addiction for its players, nor does it cause health issues, which would be the only way to validate the argument you just tried to make.

BDO is not forcing anything on anyone and saying it should be illegal because some people have no control is flat out stupid. The end user has complete and total control over their decision to spend or not spend more money on this game. Personality defaults on the end users side literally has nothing to do with the game. If that person truly has an uncontrollable urge to waste money this is not the only place they can go to waste money and that's their issue.

 

Also knowing random drop info is literally not going to change shit.  You are not entitled to any more info than is legally required to be shown, and seeing as how KR has had laws about drop rate information release for a while now that has not translated to any real changes outside of that territory why do people keep parroting that point about China as if it matters?

Edited by Blasphemia
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The most annoying point in this game is the time you have to spend to become or stay competetive. Iam still lv56 with 51% to 57, cant get any grind spots cause they are already taken and my gear is not strong enough to fight. What i can do? Switch Channels and maybe hope there is no one. Til now even switch channels was waste.

Daily Scrolls, get lot of Hunter Seals, trade them into Black Stone Armor, try to Upgrade my Gear, RNGesus fu**s me up and everything failed. No more stones für 15+ enchants, no money and no time for grind or gather for hours to get the mats - if i would even find some sharp or hard crystals, RNG u know?

Before the Server Merge, i was able to get at least some naughty sausan spots but actually i even get killed at elric spots so i have lost any motivation to play active. Log in, wait for rewards, get my daily scroll and log out.

Is this the way to have fun in korea? Well this game is definetly not made for players with work, friends family, hobbys and the whole stuff. Sad

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Posted (edited)

video games are not meth....wtf 

you are srsly trying to equate video games with illegal drugs as a way to justify outlawing game design that you don't like. How can you criminalize the non criminal based on huge leaps in logic?

 

Bdo does not create a physical addiction for its players, nor does it cause health issues, which would be the only way to validate the argument you just tried to make.

BDO is not forcing anything on anyone and saying it should be illegal because some people have no control is flat out stupid. The end user has complete and total control over their decision to spend or not spend more money on this game. Personality defaults on the end users side literally has nothing to do with the game. If that person truly has an uncontrollable urge to waste money this is not the only place they can go to waste money and that's their issue.

 

Also knowing random drop info is literally not going to change shit.  You are not entitled to any more info than is legally required to be shown, and seeing as how KR has has laws about drop rate information release for a while now that has not translated to any real changes outside of that territory why do people keep parroting that point as if it matters?

the tread is talking about something different...

Btw, the game makes you think you need something, but to do that, you need a month. - then kakao offers you a way to make it faster, so they first create the problem, and then they offer you the solution.. that's looks more like a devilish way to act, not much to do with drugs..
But that's basic marketing, they want you to feel in need of that thing, they want you to buy it.. nothing new from the Eastern game industry

 

oh wait.. they wanted to be different and raise eastern popularity, lol

The most annoying point in this game is the time you have to spend to become or stay competetive. Iam still lv56 with 51% to 57, cant get any grind spots cause they are already taken and my gear is not strong enough to fight. What i can do? Switch Channels and maybe hope there is no one. Til now even switch channels was waste.

Daily Scrolls, get lot of Hunter Seals, trade them into Black Stone Armor, try to Upgrade my Gear, RNGesus fu**s me up and everything failed. No more stones für 15+ enchants, no money and no time for grind or gather for hours to get the mats - if i would even find some sharp or hard crystals, RNG u know?

Before the Server Merge, i was able to get at least some naughty sausan spots but actually i even get killed at elric spots so i have lost any motivation to play active. Log in, wait for rewards, get my daily scroll and log out.

Is this the way to have fun in korea? Well this game is definetly not made for players with work, friends family, hobbys and the whole stuff. Sad

Your opinion is ofc influenced by the negative experience with RNGesus but that pretty much sums up the common feeling i see among the people i know ingame.
The fact is that i really think the root problem of all that is the insame Farming time! 
Less time to dedicate at farming = more chances to find some free sausan spots
Less grind = more fun and more active play

I wonder how do they have fun in Korea, if korean mmos are a mirror of their society then it's really a mess

Edited by Mortivoro

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The most annoying point in this game is the time you have to spend to become or stay competetive. Iam still lv56 with 51% to 57, cant get any grind spots cause they are already taken and my gear is not strong enough to fight. What i can do? Switch Channels and maybe hope there is no one. Til now even switch channels was waste.

Daily Scrolls, get lot of Hunter Seals, trade them into Black Stone Armor, try to Upgrade my Gear, RNGesus fu**s me up and everything failed. No more stones für 15+ enchants, no money and no time for grind or gather for hours to get the mats - if i would even find some sharp or hard crystals, RNG u know?

Before the Server Merge, i was able to get at least some naughty sausan spots but actually i even get killed at elric spots so i have lost any motivation to play active. Log in, wait for rewards, get my daily scroll and log out.

Is this the way to have fun in korea? Well this game is definetly not made for players with work, friends family, hobbys and the whole stuff. Sad

Koreans have far less scumbags than NA or EU i bet.

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Posted (edited)

the tread is talking about something different...

Btw, the game makes you think you need something, but to do that, you need a month. - then kakao offers you a way to make it faster, so they first create the problem, and then they offer you the solution.. that's looks more like a devilish way to act, not much to do with drugs..
But that's basic marketing, they want you to feel in need of that thing, they want you to buy it.. nothing new from the Eastern game industry

 

oh wait.. they wanted to be different and raise eastern popularity, lol

you literally just described how almost every f2p or b2p game operates -.-. of course they could hand the player everything on a silver platter on first log in but that does not create a returning customer does it? Welcome to how business works. 

Youre either gonna pay box and a monthly sub (p2p) or you pay a box (or just DL the game free) and get bombarded with temptations to spend more. That is and always will be how b2p/f2p games work, they literally have to do that to keep the game alive. Your unwavering loyalty, playtime, and tears can't pay the bills.

And implying that only "Eastern Companies" do this is flat out an insult to all the hard work trion put into creating and destroying RIFT with it's cash shop schemes.

Edited by Blasphemia

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I'm saying if MMOs were regulated. We'd have better communication with developer and publisher.

 

If they listened, maybe people wouldn't be wasting pay checks on artisan's memory. Maybe the game wouldn't seem like such a pointless grind.

 

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Posted (edited)

you literally just described how almost every f2p or b2p game operates -.-. of course they could hand the player everything on a silver platter on first log in but that does not create a returning customer does it? Welcome to how business works. 

Youre either gonna pay box and a monthly sub (p2p) or you pay a box (or just DL the game free) and get bombarded with temptations to spend more. That is and always will be how b2p/f2p games work, they literally have to do that to keep the game alive. Your unwavering loyalty, playtime, and tears can't pay the bills.

And implying that only "Eastern Companies" is flat out an insult to all the hard work trion put into creating and destroying RIFT with it's cash shop schemes.

i'm from EU so i don't have any experience with Trion aside Rift.
and what i described is basic marketing, that extends to gaming aswell.
Guild wars 2 offer you everything
 on a silver platter on first log in and as you can see from NcSoft financial reports it still rocks on earning compared to other titles 

I'm saying if MMOs were regulated. We'd have better communication with developer and publisher.

 

If they listened, maybe people wouldn't be wasting pay checks on artisan's memory. Maybe the game wouldn't seem like such a pointless grind.

 

In other words, this game presents itself like a AAA mmo but it acts like a Z company trying to keep people trust and pocket full of $ at the same time


and again, if it was less grindy, people wouldn't feel that much the need of shop aside from cosmetics

Edited by Mortivoro

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i'm from EU so i don't have any experience with Trion aside Rift.and what i described is basic marketing, that extends to gaming aswell.
Guild wars 2 offer you everything
 on a silver platter on first log in and as you can see from NcSoft financial reports it still rocks on earning compared to other titles 

So Gw2 gave me max char slots max bag slots max bank slots and a host of other things the second I logged in all those moons ago on launch day right?

No, I'm pretty sure I had to either grind gold to turn into gems or just buy gems to get all those little "convenience" items my account now has. 

 

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Until you realise that the true end game is socialising with friends in your guild 

 

the game play just gives us somthing to do while we do it

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