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PSA: How Evasion is actually calculated on an item

71 posts in this topic

Posted

He might be salty but it is kinda proven pure AP destroys anything unless your a ninja or kunoichi with a eva build. 

sure but the opposite is also true for pure dp builds. You can youtube search for 450+ dp builds from korea as well and nothing kills them either.

i will admit AP builds are more popular because you can gind mobs faster with more AP.

 

gearavatar.png

man this build is legit.. Much much like.. Very cost effective as well.

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Posted

He might be salty but it is kinda proven pure AP destroys anything unless your a ninja or kunoichi with a eva build. 

We aren't discusing how to counter AP with DP builds. We are trying to know how DP/DR/Eva works.

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Posted

No one na are anywhere near kr AP gear levels, sure 285 AP bong exists, but the majority of players here don't have the stats to break Dp stacks.  Play for the current meta, not for the one that's at least a year away. 

 

Plus, maximizing cost efficiency is a good way to put out as much worth as you can for very little

 

Kind of like 400hp turbo Frankenstein Honda civics destroying Ferraris in a race... Sure one is a Ferrari, but it still lost to a civic 

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Posted

Look at the Evasion + DR on both axion shields, and then the DP. 

2017-01-18_8736713.PNG2017-01-18_8745336.PNG

2017-01-18_8752609.PNG2017-01-18_8766952.PNG

It's interesting because those numbers adds up so well. I didn't do extensive testing or research on this but this topic excites me to understand the decisions made on items in general.

With a simple comparison between the text given for horse gear and sub-weapons with other items, the former is clearly presented and adds up. Based on your theory, damage reduction should equal to 1 DP, but if we were to compare ultimate armor (which has +2 DR) with its base armor, there is a 5 DP difference. Does that mean there's also +3 evasion or is the bonus DR actually +5? If you compare green to blue and blue to yellow armor, blue has +2 specific DR but it doesn’t affect text DP (obviously because it isn’t applied to all damage).

So the question is whether the text given is incomplete, it is intentionally incomplete, or this theory is wrong.

Like others have mentioned, maybe DP items without specified text have different applications, evasion or DR.

Based on these speculations, maybe accuracy and evasion go hand in hand while AP and DR go hand in hand, both with separate formulas.

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Posted (edited)

not additional and old news.. Tested long ago.

i would love it to be additional, i would wear horse gear as my armor.. So OP.. 

 

Tested? How? Explain it to me please.

Other thing.

Many players think if they use more accuracy they can hit better, if they use more evasion they can avoid damage more. But nobody talks about how many is enough and how many is wasted. If we return to the functions, we can see every enhancement, function in this case, has a minimum, a maximum, and a steppness. How do you know what is the maximum that your class can use, and how many is what useless to use? How do you know how many evasion need your horse? How do you know how many evasion need for your class? How do you know how many evasion need against certain classes, certain levels and certain spells, combos? Does anybody know about these? It is all about just divination. For those of you who think, if I use tons of accuracy I can beat everybody, if I use tons of evasion, I can be invincible. False! There is always has a limit. Another thing. I can put 6 critical on my character, but I can see only 5 levels on my character page. Does my character use that additional +1? Same with attack speed, casting speed, movement speed...

Edited by Vyky

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Posted

Tested? How? Explain it to me please.

Other thing.

Many players think if they use more accuracy they can hit better, if they use more evasion they can avoid damage more. But nobody talks about how many is enough and how many is wasted. If we return to the functions, we can see every enhancement, function in this case, has a minimum, a maximum, and a steppness. How do you know what is the maximum that your class can use, and how many is what useless to use? How do you know how many evasion need your horse? How do you know how many evasion need for your class? How do you know how many evasion need against certain classes, certain levels and certain spells, combos? Does anybody know about these? It is all about just divination. For those of you who think, if I use tons of accuracy I can beat everybody, if I use tons of evasion, I can be invincible. False! There is always has a limit. Another thing. I can put 6 critical on my character, but I can see only 5 levels on my character page. Does my character use that additional +1? Same with attack speed, casting speed, movement speed...

Wow, you want to know it all want it right now huh.

Paitience is a virtue. Listen there are two realities that you are going to need to accept first before we/you go forward with this discussion.

1. Given the purposeful hiding of stats in this game there are certain things we as a community will never know unless explained by the developers and even if you have an idea/hypothesis you very probably will be unable to test it. 

2. You are going to have to accept that their are other people in this community with the same interests as you and that have done the work to figure this stuff out ahead of you. Asking for proof on everything like you're the only authority on the matter is wasting our time. If you want the proof do it yourself.

Okay, your questions.

Tested? How? Explain it to me please.
- see point #2 .. if it was a seperate "additional" stat horses would be VERY VERY hard to kill but they are not. Their defense is appropriate to the quantity of DP they have.

Many players think if they use more accuracy they can hit better, if they use more evasion they can avoid damage more. But nobody talks about how many is enough and how many is wasted.
- Actually this is something that is talked about alot at least in my guild. Also See point #1

Does anybody know about these? 
- yes actually.. But the discussion is like looking at math problem once you figured out the solution it is only valid for that one specific problem. Likewise those questions can be answered but only valid for Opponent A vs opponent B .. The moment you change a variable it's a new problem and a new discussion.

There is always has a limit.
- actually apparently there isn't; a recent development in my guild. As with everything else in this game there is only increasing diminishing returns.

Does my character use that additional +1?
- No but you can increase beyond the +5 level with % based augmentations.

Peace..

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Posted

 

gearavatar.png

I'll take the TET Muskans..

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Posted

 

Wow, you want to know it all want it right now huh.

Paitience is a virtue. Listen there are two realities that you are going to need to accept first before we/you go forward with this discussion.

1. Given the purposeful hiding of stats in this game there are certain things we as a community will never know unless explained by the developers and even if you have an idea/hypothesis you very probably will be unable to test it. 

2. You are going to have to accept that their are other people in this community with the same interests as you and that have done the work to figure this stuff out ahead of you. Asking for proof on everything like you're the only authority on the matter is wasting our time. If you want the proof do it yourself.

Okay, your questions.

Tested? How? Explain it to me please.
- see point #2 .. if it was a seperate "additional" stat horses would be VERY VERY hard to kill but they are not. Their defense is appropriate to the quantity of DP they have.

Many players think if they use more accuracy they can hit better, if they use more evasion they can avoid damage more. But nobody talks about how many is enough and how many is wasted.
- Actually this is something that is talked about alot at least in my guild. Also See point #1

Does anybody know about these? 
- yes actually.. But the discussion is like looking at math problem once you figured out the solution it is only valid for that one specific problem. Likewise those questions can be answered but only valid for Opponent A vs opponent B .. The moment you change a variable it's a new problem and a new discussion.

There is always has a limit.
- actually apparently there isn't; a recent development in my guild. As with everything else in this game there is only increasing diminishing returns.

Does my character use that additional +1?
- No but you can increase beyond the +5 level with % based augmentations.

Peace..

Thank you for your answeres, I appreciate that!

I just wanted to highlight one thing, too much player get lost in the "hidden stats" instead of play with the game. There is much more question than answer. Much ado about nothing.

 

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Posted

Kutum is indeed nice...but ill keep my PEN krea tyvm ;.;

Theres two "kinds" of dp,evasion dp,absorption dp and they are both listed in the item like muskans,if you substract 10 dp from muskan it has around the same dp as other shoes at same enchant tier.

Another example is,check accesories,theres two different "types" of accesory that give dp on the same tier,odd right? but then you check em."talis accesories give evergy of steel" thats absorption dp,and check "hesus accesories,give speed and agility" thats evasion dp.They act very differently.Armor crystals give absorption dp,agility crystals give evasion dp and so on and so on.

@remilafo your needed here

so what kind of dp would something like ancient core set give sense it doesnt really state steel or agility lol. Or centuar or sicil for that matter? :o 

 

gearavatar.png

I was gona ask i y needed bhegs but forgot u guys get a ton of acc on skills rite? :c Wanted to try selling my bhegs and get tri rocaba helm gloves for more evasion on my ninja

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Posted

so what kind of dp would something like ancient core set give sense it doesnt really state steel or agility lol. Or centuar or sicil for that matter? :o 

I was gona ask i y needed bhegs but forgot u guys get a ton of acc on skills rite? :c Wanted to try selling my bhegs and get tri rocaba helm gloves for more evasion on my ninja

Thats the problem since its not specified on all items gotta do alot of testing to find out which sucks really.They make it so unfriendly and hard to tune specific builds cause ya gotta test most of it which is really hard to do too :< more transparency pls pearl abyss

 

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Posted (edited)

Damn plebs.  Instead of arguing definitively, at least say it with an open mind.  

This is before they changed the descriptions to make everything RNG so everyone can keep guessing (and of course fixed a bit of some stats).

1421213434046.jpg

Notice the talis ring.  That's 1 evasion and 1 damage reduction.  Shrine was pure damage reduction, and the rest is self-explanatory.  

 

Now what I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is the comparison from Red Nose Armor and Tree armor and see which one gives a better pure damage reduction.  Anyone has both that can do reliable tests? :D

Edited by YajStylez

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Posted

so what kind of dp would something like ancient core set give sense it doesnt really state steel or agility lol. Or centuar or sicil for that matter? :o 

I was gona ask i y needed bhegs but forgot u guys get a ton of acc on skills rite? :c Wanted to try selling my bhegs and get tri rocaba helm gloves for more evasion on my ninja

it is impossible to know for some pieces of gear and i think we just gotta accept that.

Damn plebs.  Instead of arguing definitively, at least say it with an open mind.  

This is before they changed the descriptions to make everything RNG so everyone can keep guessing (and of course fixed a bit of some stats).

1421213434046.jpg

Notice the talis ring.  That's 1 evasion and 1 damage reduction.  Shrine was pure damage reduction, and the rest is self-explanatory.  

 

Now what I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is the comparison from Red Nose Armor and Tree armor and see which one gives a better pure damage reduction.  Anyone has both that can do reliable tests? :D

I mean i can't read korean so im not getting anythinf from your examples.  Could you translate?

As for the armor, All chest pieces are 100% dmg reduction DP..

 

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Posted (edited)

@remilafo Not korean myself but basically; shrine ring says specifically 'damage reduction +3' while talis specifically says 'Evasion + 1 and damage reduction +1' on their description.

Are you 100% sure about chest pieces though? I've never heard or seen tests done so far so imo it's still just all assumptions.  Just curious because accessories hold true although all other types hasn't been tested because they weren't out yet then (or if it's still even true presently; I'm just a broke pleb).

Edited by YajStylez

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Posted

Now what I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is the comparison from Red Nose Armor and Tree armor and see which one gives a better pure damage reduction.  Anyone has both that can do reliable tests?

:D

Well i test only Ultimate Steel Taritas TRI vs Red Nose TRI and in Damage reduction taritas is slighty better and i think this is becouse of additional DR from ultimated. Also tested Cobelinus vs Armor +5DR stones, and efective hp is the same so its better to pick 5 DR stones due to more concentrated HP and better healing from pots ofc the best stone would be black magic cobelinus 100HP +2DR.

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Posted

Thats the problem since its not specified on all items gotta do alot of testing to find out which sucks really.They make it so unfriendly and hard to tune specific builds cause ya gotta test most of it which is really hard to do too :< more transparency pls pearl abyss

 

it is impossible to know for some pieces of gear and i think we just gotta accept that.

I mean i can't read korean so im not getting anythinf from your examples.  Could you translate?

As for the armor, All chest pieces are 100% dmg reduction DP..

 

ah ok thank you guys :D  would be nice if the item description was some sort of clue at least ya know lol

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Posted

There are strong hints that:

- accuracy is around 1% per point
- evasion is around 1% per point (a little less, apparently nerfed)
- enchant gives 1 point per level (up to +15 at least)
- DP might be DR+evasion

 

Will be able to run a 2nd account on a laptop soon and make some tests, e.g.:

- items that increase evasion and not DR according to description, should result in the same damage (if all misses are ignored), e.g. for different enchantment levels of vangertz or rosar
- similar, higher enchantment of kite shield should give same hit/miss rate, but less damage, for different enchantment levels
- decent enchanted Muskan, vs. some 4 DP/Evasion shoes - does it reduce damage or only evasion?

 

A few problems remain though:

- descriptions on items are not automatically created by the stats behind it, they are freely typed text and can contain some errors or not all information
- while enchantment up to +15 seems to be linear, the TRI irregularity makes clear that each enchantment level has its own hardcoded value, basically there are 20 different items instead of one item having 20 enchantment levels. which means, there could be huge gaps in accuracy/evasion to starting from PRI. or could still be +1

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Posted

<refills popcorn>

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Posted

- while enchantment up to +15 seems to be linear, the TRI irregularity makes clear that each enchantment level has its own hardcoded value, basically there are 20 different items instead of one item having 20 enchantment levels. which means, there could be huge gaps in accuracy/evasion to starting from PRI. or could still be +1

In the "olden days", we coded weapon strengths with tables, as look-up tables were faster than calculations and in combat, micro-seconds count. I'd say there's a good chance that's still being done.

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Posted

- enchant gives 1 point per level (up to +15 at least)

Definitely not as a standard; Bheg's only has ~10 Acc at +15, for example.

It also doesn't fit with the way the "main" stats are handled during enchants; for AP/DP, the first few enchants are stronger than average, then it gets weaker up until +8 where it increases again. Kzarka for example:

  1. +4 AP
  2. +3 AP
  3. +3 AP
  4. +2 AP
  5. +2 AP
  6. +3 AP
  7. +3 AP
  8. +5 AP
  9. +5 AP
  10. +5 AP
  11. +5 AP
  12. +5 AP
  13. +5 AP
  14. +5 AP
  15. +5 AP
  16. +8 AP
  17. +8 AP
  18. +12 AP
  19. +8 AP
  20. +8 AP

So, why should it be different as a rule for the secondary stats?

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Posted (edited)

Definitely not as a standard; Bheg's only has ~10 Acc at +15, for example.

There doesn't exist a single reliable test on the absolute value, only stuff that's like 1-2 years old where people assumed it's 0,75 or something strange per level, but the guys didn't think of base values, it's probably just +1 per level, plus a base value, no programmer in the world would introduce floats for pure integer values, for no reason at all (floats are more likely used for global modifiers, like evasion nerf).

I agree with AP though, that's what I meant, those stats are hardcoded per enchant. Of course you are right that it's possible they did the same with accuracy.

But without tests that you can try to reproduce and verify, nobody should say "it IS like that", you should say "it's possible that...".

So, why should it be different as a rule for the secondary stats?

It's just a guess and the only real decent test I've seen so far (many different setups of accuracy/evasion) would support that, hit rate increased 1% per enchant. But that's just from reading, and I tend to be suspicious about BDO theories, until I tested myself ;)

Edited by Spartakatz

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Posted

There doesn't exist a single reliable test on the absolute value, only stuff that's like 1-2 years old where people assumed it's 0,75 or something strange per level, but the guys didn't think of base values, it's probably just +1 per level, plus a base value, no programmer in the world would introduce floats for pure integer values, for no reason at all (floats are more likely used for global modifiers, like evasion nerf).

September~January is 1-2 years?

https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/540c8f/accuracy_evasion_bhegs_and_serendia_meal/

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Posted

How Evasion is actually calculated on an item

=> R N G

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Posted (edited)

No, I meant that korean stuff, which had as result 0,75% accuracy per enchant, but no real data seen ever.

That reddit post and its tests are pretty decent.

What? I'm confused here.

So, I gave you a clear example of an item that cannot possibly receive +1 per enchant, because it only has ~10 after 15 enchants. You said in reply that there isn't a single reliable test on the absolute value (I assumed you meant Bheg's Acc?) except one that's 1-2 years old, so I linked you one that's 1-4 months old. Looking back, it seems you meant "a table of the different values of Acc gained per enchant"? Which is what some KR players did 1-2 years ago, yeah, but they didn't conclude "0.75 per enchant"; it was fixed but varying amounts just like AP:

(original KR testing on Inven)

KR values.png

 

As for whether that's accurate or not, well, I dunno but it does sort of fit both Bheg's (9.17~13.34%) and the Acc off-hands (17.75~20.13%). Definitely not accurate for mainhands though, they give way more than that.

Edited by Zephan
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Posted

*like*
I think that ancient weapon belt at tri would be better than shultz ( 8/8 vs 9 )
The magical earrings aren't worth it, so yeah good call there too. 

And the ap advantage of khutum vs rosar overall probably makes khutum a better choice

All in all i like your build

Noob here regarding builds.

 

What are all of the items he is wearing in that picture?

 

Thinking of making a full evasive ninja.

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