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Karma System is Perfect? Fact Sheet

112 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

by doing the Blemon quest that allows you to level past 49.999, you are consenting to all OW PVP from that point forward.That quest is a contract you are making with the game saying that you are prepared for PVP.
Once you do that quest, you've signed a contract consenting to all future PVP. 
There is no if-ands-or-buts about it. Period. End of story. 

Sorry but you are wrong.  Consenting to play in Open World PvP doesn't mean you consent to engage in combat with another player.  It only means you can be subjected to PvP.  To consent to PvP you have to flag for it.  No flag then no consent and the person that pks you is punished for it.  End of story.

Edit:  Open World PvP just means that the PvP takes place in an open world instead of in instances like Red Battlefield.

Edited by ronniejw
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Posted

Sorry but you are wrong.  Consenting to play in Open World PvP doesn't mean you consent to engage in combat with another player.  It only means you can be subjected to PvP.  To consent to PvP you have to flag for it.  No flag then no consent and the person that pks you is punished for it.  End of story.

Edit:  Open World PvP just means that the PvP takes place in an open world instead of in instances like Red Battlefield.

You signed the contract, you consented to all OW PVP. 
Your argument is invalid.

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Posted (edited)

I just grind in areas I'm over leveled for with my flag on now.  I just kill people as I come across them in my rotation, I don't hunt them down but if they're standing next to mobs then they die with the mobs

 

reasons I only grind in areas I'm over leveled for

1) exp is still decent even when mobs are grey

2) make more silver per hour than most level appropriate areas

3) I'm not there to pvp and don't want pvp competiton, I just want to grind

4) if I go negative due to people not leaving my rotation nbd, mobs can't kill me so no degrade in weapon and most players I come across can't kill me in a party of 5 so no worries there

5) if they can kill me my guild decs on their guild so I don't lose karma, exp or gems and our berserker's go to karanda with dp sets and grab their guildies when karanda starts shooting spikes resulting in the death of the grabbed player.  Leave the dec up for a week and deny the karma bombing guild bosses for the duration.  Most guilds that we do this to don't karma bomb us again.

 

 

edit: I used to ask people to leave but most of the time all I got was "----- off" or "you don't own the mobs" so I don't even bother anymore. 

Edited by Reave711

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Posted (edited)

You signed the contract, you consented to all OW PVP. Your argument is invalid.

Sorry but you are wrong.  I'll just repeat myself.  Consenting to play in Open World PvP doesn't mean you consent to engage in combat with another player.  It only means you can be subjected to PvP.  To consent to PvP you have to flag for it.  No flag then no consent and the person that pks you is punished for it.  End of story.

Open World PvP just means that the PvP takes place in an open world instead of in instances like Red Battlefield.

Edit:  Just so you see that this isn't just my own opinion I'll direct you to this guide to PvP in BDO on MMORPG.org (bold added by me) 

"The basic gist is that, unless you've officially declared war on another guild, there's going to be some stiff penalties in place for randomly attacking other players. While some might see this as merely protecting the weak from the strong, Black Desert Online implements a smart system that encourages robust and exciting combat, but only when both sides have consented to it."

In other words if both sides don't consent to combat with each other then the game discourages the combat with a karma system.
Edited by ronniejw
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Posted

You signed the contract, you consented to all OW PVP. Your argument is invalid.

you consented to the consequences of pk behavior.  Stop whining.  The system works.

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Posted

was perfict when the person pked lost 1% exp and gems as well now its just carebear really only the pker gets punished if goes red and dies, no ballance there.

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Most strong/decent players rarely flag up randomly from my experience. It's usually the hot-heads who think they're special and drip with obnoxious entitlement. After I beat the living shit out of them after they flag, for some reason they rarely return or eventually do so without a flag on.  :)

Honestly the best thing about the karma system is the irony of the name...

Additionally all this 'consent' talk is asinine... If you decide to play the game, you're subject to the games rules. The games asks you to become strong by getting good at playing, getting lucky with RnG on gear (or playing till your eyes bleed to get around it), so you have the power to crush your enemies. This goes both ways...

Just like you're not 'entitled' to be safe from Pk'ers by the games rules, you're not 'entitled' to a certain XP per hour or the mobs in the field. If you don't want to go red/PK, the game's rules doesn't give a shit. Find an alternative or out farm them. Your only obligation in this game is to have power...

The people who cry about 'my spot' or 'my rotation' or 'my mobs' are just as bad as the people who cry about getting PK'ed. It's straight up just as 'care bear' as these kids say...

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Posted

Most players would probably never come to the conclusion that the karma system is nearly perfect "as is".  Note: This is NOT an evaluation of PVP only the karma system.

Be Omniscient.  The PVP system needs to be designed for everyone so stop looking in the mirror and trying to base the needs of your selfish interests.

 

Fact: The penalty for being PK'd is minimal

Also Fact : The cost to PK is also minimal

          You do NOT go negative karma for pking on Mediah with max karma

          * It's possible to gain back the karma from a PK in LESS than 15 minutes

          You can UNFLAG during combat

          When a player returns to the area without bottling they CAN NOT attack the player who PK'd them (At the PKers choice, NOT the victim)

 

Players want to complain about "Karma Bombing" because they don't want to compete for areas.  However, what they are ACTUALLY advocating is the ability for them to REMOVE players from the area.  This issue is a two way street that includes both party defending AND party intrusion.  If you give people the ability to protect an area you ALSO give players the ability to force themselves into an area that is already "taken".

 

If you evalute this information thoroughly you may come to the same conclusion:  The current system isn't that bad.

 

The system being good bad or indifferent is not the issue. The issue is that it shouldn't even exist.

There is no reason for a game advertised as a PvP game to punish people for taking part in PvP. What this game does is say 'Its cool to PvP but don't kill more than 6 people or we will punish you by breaking your gear / crystals'  The current system actually stops people competing for grind spots because its pointless. It actively promotes people avoiding PvP. Having a system where entire guilds can avoid war decs just adds to that.

The split maps system is still the best i have seen for MMO's. You have safe maps and PvP maps - The PvP maps have more exp and better drops as a reward for the risk of being on them. Then everyone makes their choice and everyone is relatively happy. The only pvp players that whine in that system are the ones who want to kill without competition.

TL:DR - Its bad because of the game, not because of the Karma system itself.

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Posted

 

When I get full Karma I search for a victim to PK them.  I generally look for players soloing and especially ones with a slower kill speed.  I knock them down and they never get up.  They are blasted with damage that would kill them 4x's over.  It's not challenge at all and they haven't done anything wrong.  I just like to slap them in face because I am disgusted with the developers.

Your system would penalize them ever more and make me considerably more powerful so I can trash people even harder.

I like this post because it so nicely illustrates the type of player clamoring for consequence-free owpvp. Maladjusted kids with a chip on their shoulder (or irl problems) who want to feel big by taking it out on someone. And of course since they've been projecting this "here's where I can vent my rage with zero repercussions" image on BDO, once that's taken away.. well

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When I grind, and some one comes to spot i am in, i simply say duel me for it, if the other player wins i leave no questions ask, and most of the time the players that loses respects the duel and leaves. And yes some times they don't leave and just wait for you to start grinding or don't accept at all, I just switch channel, because with the current system there is nothing i can do. As a player who has fallen out of the gear and level curve I still want a system in play that maybe works the following way:

Die once - no penalty.

Die twice to the same player - 30 sec respawn like node wars

Die +7-8 make them lose xp
-----------------------------------------------
cool down for the rest can be 20min just as long it takes to start a war.
Just saying its broken wont give our CM's/GM's or PA any information on they way we want to change the system. Maybe the original Karma system II was to complex we just have to keep trying.

Sorry for long post, hope you agree with me. 
 

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Posted

The system is quite decent as it is. Of course minor changes could be implemented such as "respawn penalties" (like the NW ones) or other suggestions by many players above.

What certainly needs to be changed is the time window between war declaration and war activation -15' is way too much when a spot claim is happening and pvp is going on- and also the "guild is not ready for war" rule. 70-people guilds, with 58-59-60 lvl members "not ready for war"? Preposterous in my opinion. 

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Posted

That is some backwards -----ing logic.

agreed 100percent. Its insanehow so many that prefer Pve just look as pvpers as selfish and wanting to ruin oters tme. It's simply a playstyle. Simple fix is make players respawn aat node , then if they die again in pvp in ten minutes respawn at town thn city and make tgem unable to rez in a certain time frame. As far as dying with karma, it is huge, losing enchants and gems is petty intense

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Posted

Id say they are wrong sure.
But maybe they just didn't know a group was there.  Sometimes its unintentional.  Which is where alot of conflict is born is because someone will just flag up and say nothing.  Then the other guy is pissed off because had you told them you are in our rotation they would have probably left or asked to join.  But when you PK out of nowhere you set the tone.

My guild is very big on the concept of friendship desert. I will always ask the other player to leave the rotation. "Hi Could you please leave the rotation :D" I would honestly say 50% of the time the other player would leave. The rest are willing to sit there and karma bomb.

Another situation. Say someone has main rotation Pirates soloing it. They can barely manage the rotation that is made for 210+ AP or a full party. You ask that solo player to join a party, and the reject your offer. 

There is only one answer and you may not like it, but deal with it.

This is where the Omniscient aspect comes into play.

You CAN'T propose only 1 side of the equation.  If that party has the ability to crush that player, that also means the party can move into another player/parties areas and do the same.

So with your logic. My party should kill them until we run out of karma. Then leave our rotation to find a new one?

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Posted

Most players would probably never come to the conclusion that the karma system is nearly perfect "as is".  Note: This is NOT an evaluation of PVP only the karma system.

Be Omniscient.  The PVP system needs to be designed for everyone so stop looking in the mirror and trying to base the needs of your selfish interests.

 

Fact: The penalty for being PK'd is minimal

Also Fact : The cost to PK is also minimal

          You do NOT go negative karma for pking on Mediah with max karma

          * It's possible to gain back the karma from a PK in LESS than 15 minutes

          You can UNFLAG during combat

          When a player returns to the area without bottling they CAN NOT attack the player who PK'd them (At the PKers choice, NOT the victim)

You're starting off with something that's not even remotely close to being a fact. Stating that the penalty for being PK'd is minimal which is subjective. Where it might be minimal for you it might have a huge impact on someone else. Please, get your "facts" straightened out.

 

The costs for PK aren't factual either, these are also subjective and highly different for each person.

 

Please, try again with some proper facts.

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Posted

We start with the fact that there are some areas in the game that are overpopulated due to the highly desirable resources in there. Like sausans/pirates. This harms the whole population:

-The people grinding there suffer since they have to share the profit and so are better going to another, less benefical, place.

-The whole population suffers because they see most areas of the game completely empty (half Mediah and the whole Valencia are empty).

The only reliable way to force the population to spread out and populate the whole world giving an enormous benefit to the whole community, is allowing player to player competition, that is unrestricted OWPvP. Funny that Malthus came to this conclussion in 1798, and Darwin rediscovered the principle in 1859. Somehow, more than 200 years later, people still struggle to understand this basic principle.

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Posted

I like the logic of: if you agree to advance to level 50, you agree to PvP.

But - for those who run solo (no guild) do you give them the courtesy of asking them to leave, or to share, before attacking?

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Step 1. improve Valencia and subsequest locations to be undoubtedly and significantly better for XP gain and silver than previous areas. Lowest Valencia are needs to be equal to or clearly better than the best Mediah area in terms of both XP and money, so on and so forth.

step 2. Implement jail system in Mediah and under regions, Negative karma perma flags you for prison untill grinded back.

step 3. Valencia is a completely lawless land. No karma loss what so ever.

Step 4. in future updates, evolve the story so that Valencia becomes a peacefull region, Kamislav goes under a huge war adnd becomes new lawless region. easily cyclable mechanic to make the highest level areas have unlimited PVP while lower level areas are safeish for catching up.

step 5. Bandit/bounty/protection system. Killed by someone, can place a small bounty. the numbers of players killed *not same player killd x times* can  raise the amount of bounty. Bandit system, PKd players drop a portion of tradables and trash loot. Protection system, Can contract up to a full party of players to protect you during trade runs from other players.

I honestly dont know why the protection system isnt in place already, PKd a random boater i saw while fishing in epheria, the bloke had over 700 crates destroyed
I made an enemy xD

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Posted

This is one of those Alternative Facts

I mean... you're not wrong lel

Also Fact : The cost to PK is also minimal

so is this though :) 

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Posted

Also, people keep saying how much the "karma bombers" ruin their rotation... did you guys ever think about the fact that even the karma bomber is losing a lot more of the rotation than you do while he could literally swap ch/change area?

If you decide to karma bomb just to try and take over an area it's a waste of time... It's just a lot better to move on and look for another spot. 

People karma bomb you if you speak/act like an arrogant (like PKing a player just for passing nearby), they have no interest in wasting their time, and if they do it's because they want to see you struggle, in this case if you really want to keep that spot so badly you'd better ignore him and try to outfarm as much as possible, he will get bored fast and leave since he can't karma bomb you.

 

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Correct.  Smart players don't need to go red to be effective.

In other games you can't cheese the system as easily.  If you PK a player you would be open to attack and thus giving players a better chance to retaliate.  In BDO you simply have surplus Karma so your white and unflagged when the player returns.

Just wait until the upcoming Anarchy Posts start if you think "It's a PVP game".

I'll be providing a list of effective methods to bring Anarchy to the game.  All of them acceptable, non exploitative, but very harmful to the game environment.

in other games you dont lose crystals exp or enchants .

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Posted (edited)

Sorry but you are wrong.  I'll just repeat myself.  Consenting to play in Open World PvP doesn't mean you consent to engage in combat with another player.  It only means you can be subjected to PvP.  To consent to PvP you have to flag for it.  No flag then no consent and the person that pks you is punished for it.  End of story.

Open World PvP just means that the PvP takes place in an open world instead of in instances like Red Battlefield.

Edit:  Just so you see that this isn't just my own opinion I'll direct you to this guide to PvP in BDO on MMORPG.org (bold added by me) 

"The basic gist is that, unless you've officially declared war on another guild, there's going to be some stiff penalties in place for randomly attacking other players. While some might see this as merely protecting the weak from the strong, Black Desert Online implements a smart system that encourages robust and exciting combat, but only when both sides have consented to it."

In other words if both sides don't consent to combat with each other then the game discourages the combat with a karma system.

Actually, you're wrong. The only thing you don't consent to is attacking a non-red player. The game actively warns you every time you step out of a safezone that you are going into an area of combat and waving your rights of safety. You consent to pvp the second you step out of a safezone. 

  1. con·sent
    kənˈsent/
    noun
     
    1. 1.
      permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.
      "no change may be made without the consent of all the partners"
      synonyms:agreementassentacceptanceapprovalapprobationMore
       
       
       
       
        
    verb
     
    1. 1.
      give permission for something to happen.
      "he consented to a search by a detective"
      synonyms:agree to, assent to, yield to, give in to, submit to; More
       
       

Definition straight from google. In other words, you are allowing yourself to be attacked at any time. You give your full consent for pvp each time you step out of those town borders, I'm afraid. Flagging is only in place to keep people from attacking each other by accident.

Also, people keep saying how much the "karma bombers" ruin their rotation... did you guys ever think about the fact that even the karma bomber is losing a lot more of the rotation than you do while he could literally swap ch/change area?

If you decide to karma bomb just to try and take over an area it's a waste of time... It's just a lot better to move on and look for another spot. 

People karma bomb you if you speak/act like an arrogant (like PKing a player just for passing nearby), they have no interest in wasting their time, and if they do it's because they want to see you struggle, in this case if you really want to keep that spot so badly you'd better ignore him and try to outfarm as much as possible, he will get bored fast and leave since he can't karma bomb you.

 

Generally, most people who run straight into your rotations when they see you there have no intention of stopping. They want to take over. In most cases, keeping a spot is a test of patience. Whoever is willing to put up with it longest ends up keeping the rotation because the other guy gets tired of it and either flags until he loses all his karma and has to leave, or just leaves. Most people will leave if I ask, but there are a few people who don't care and will straight up ignore me.

 

That's a wonderful idea.  And this is how your idea would work if implemented.

When I get full Karma I search for a victim to PK them.  I generally look for players soloing and especially ones with a slower kill speed.  I knock them down and they never get up.  They are blasted with damage that would kill them 4x's over.  It's not challenge at all and they haven't done anything wrong.  I just like to slap them in face because I am disgusted with the developers.

Your system would penalize them ever more and make me considerably more powerful so I can trash people even harder.

Thanks for the great idea.

And don't think you're exempt.

People like that don't last long in this game, honestly. Look at MissBulgaria. The dude was perma-red because he sniped afk fishers all day long, and eventually, the community got tired of his shit and hunted him down. The same would happen to you if you were pking innocent people. You would make enough guilds angry to actively hunt you. There's also always channel chat, and there are pvpers who do look for situations to kill another player, especially if they're harassing undergeared or underleveled people. The best solution we have so far is to implement some kind of punishment mechanic for multiple deaths. Either implement a rez timer, force them back to town or a different nodes (like with low karma, level alts who die repeatedly in zones).

If they can't implement that, then they need to add more grinding spots to the game and increase the overall effectiveness of all post-mediah zones. While at the end of the day you'll always have people who will exploit the system to grief others, the idea is to make the system more fair across the board for everybody. Not just a select group of players. It used to incentivize pvpers, now it incentivizes pvers. OWpvp has no literal point atm. In Valencia, it's even more punishing. The only thing you get out of it is "Ha, I can kill you!" and the other person is just like, "So what? I'll just let you kill me a few more times, and then I can ruin your day for even touching me. You can't even fight back at all at that point because you'll just make it worse huehuehuehue"

 

 

Edited by Xenon

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Posted (edited)

Yup happened with a guy named beersuuu.  Comes into my rotation at bandits that I had for hours.  Kills me not a word.
So I come back start farming again, he proceeds to kill me some more.  Of course all his kills were out of no where full buffed so no real chance to defend myself.

The final time I came back he was negative and I was actually able to fight back.  He almost dies and runs away.  Then at Nouver kills me saying thats for karma bombing him.  Excuse me??  You came into my area and proceeded to be a ----- bag.  How am I at fault.

It's players like that who think they can just push people around because they want a spot thats occupied.  Now he kills guildies horses and other stuff like that so now I actively grief his guildies. 

This is just an example of the stupidity that happens with grinding and players in this game.

 

So did I karma bomb with the intention of griefing?  In my book no.  Someone came up trying to bully me out of a spot using under handed pvp tactics wasn't even a 1v1 just a hide out of range, buff up dash in (musa) flag, cc kill.  So of course im going to come back.

Say I'm farming.

 

Someone walks up and starts killing everything and killing stuff I pull. Said person kills slower but pulls random stuff and spawns are all over the place now.I flag and kill them after dealing with it for a bit. They come back and repeat x6. Now I am negative. I am red. They come back and keep coming back. Random people are passing by. I am red. Karma bomber and random people are all hitting me. I am dead now. I am negative and lost my spot. Karma bomber continues farming without a worry.

 

I have to go to Mansha or some other place to get karma back. Karma bomber still farming without a worry. 

 

Excellent.

There are two experiences. This system is flawed. 

Solutions:

-First Kill, normal karma loss

-Second and further kills on same person, no karma loss for 15-30 mins.

-Third and further deaths, cannot re-spawn near node they died.

It's not perfect but its better than what we currently have.

Edited by Mosharn

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Posted

This argument again.

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Dont worry the new karma system is coming to our side. Kill a person once they have a karma timer so you dont lose karma if they come back for 10 mins and resets when you kill them again. After 5 deaths they are forced to rez at town ^-^ ENJOY

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Posted

 

Actually, you're wrong. The only thing you don't consent to is attacking a non-red player. The game actively warns you every time you step out of a safezone that you are going into an area of combat and waving your rights of safety. You consent to pvp the second you step out of a safezone. 

Definition straight from google. In other words, you are allowing yourself to be attacked at any time. You give your full consent for pvp each time you step out of those town borders, I'm afraid. Flagging is only in place to keep people from attacking each other by accident.

Sorry but it is you that is wrong and the definition you posted is prof of that.  I have never given anyone permission to attack me.  If I didn't give permission then I didn't consent.  Just because someone can attack and kill you outside of safe areas in no way constitutes consent.  If I decide to go swimming in a lake with warning signs to beware of alligators and I go swimming anyway am i giving the alligators permission to kill me.  Of course not.  Just because you are warned of danger doesn't mean you consented to being the victim of it.

permission

the action of officially allowing someone to do a particular thing; consent or authorization.
 

Actually, you're wrong. The only thing you don't consent to is attacking a non-red player. The game actively warns you every time you step out of a safezone that you are going into an area of combat and waving your rights of safety. You consent to pvp the second you step out of a safezone.

You should also consider BDOs own description of Karma on the BDO website (bold text below added by me):

Karma

Karma refers to the alignment system which affects your relationship to players and NPC’s, in regards to PvP. You gain karma by killing monsters. When you initiate open world PvP, or flag on another player, you lose karma for assaulting that player. If you strike a death blow, you lose more karma for murder. If you go below 0 karma, you are permanently flagged until you raise your karma, and NPC guards will kill you on sight.

Who in their right mind would think that people are consenting to allow another player to murder them.  And, if you are consenting to be murdered by another player then why would it be unlawful?

Murder

 
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

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