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How P2W / OP / WTF / [fav acronym] are Artisans Memories


188 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Edit: Finally added PEN and Valks. And  please dont see this post as an endorsement of the Cash Shop or Enhancement system. I have alot of strong words in my vocabulary that i would apply to both of them, however it doesnt change the fact, that it would be hard to objectivly prove, that BDO is P2W (as far as combat gear is concerned)

Im strongly against the current Enhancement system in BDO past DUO and the amount of sheer luck that is needed instead of skill. However there are people that believe, that Artisans Memory significantly make the system easier and are totally P2W and i tend to try support/disprove arguments that are repeated over and over without actually backing those up, especially when it can be done by just using Math.

tl:dr; The financial effect of using Artisans Memory at full TET level is about 28% and will result in about 7 extra AP (if invested in AP items). This is an additional 7 AP for a character already past 225. AP scales linear so that is less than 7/225 ~ 3.1% extra damage. Which is barely enough to even reliably measure let alone be a game changer (aka P2W). Class imbalance and broken skills have a much bigger impact (especially considering most awaken skills will 1-shot anyway at these levels). The higher the base AP of players the smaller this effect becomes.

Long Version (includes Math):

As a reference i used the tables i build from the known Enhancement data especially the AP optimizer ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WzAeIFslcWhZ-TudUTrvt4S6ejGF8Uo5FwVqNivfHK0/edit#gid=235799584 )

Upgrading Armor/Weapons to Tri while not very pleasent is an achiveable goal for most players, even casual. That is about 185 AP and will cost you on average less than 1.5b.

Enhancement past TRI gets pretty nasty and this is where alot of people think that Artisans Memory make a huge difference financially and even allow selling TET and higher items for profit on the market to gain even more of a financial advantage. I will show that that is not the case. I will also address Valks (which are not in yet) but people have asked for them and also claim that the enhancement system was designed with Valks in mind. I will show that that is also not the case.

I will focus on BiS gear: Kzarka, Dande, Nouver(because it has the most raw AP, Khutum costs the same), Boss Armor (not including Rednose). These eat the most Fragments and the effect of Artisans would be the biggest there.

Full TET:

227229.5Kzarka TETDandelion TETNouver TETSerap DUOShultz TRIWitch Earring TRIWitch Earring TRIMoS TRIMoS TRI

Average Craft prices:

Dandelion, Kzarka and Nouver TET @ 1,543,415,771

Boss Armor x4 @ 1,380,540,053

total ~10.15b for items where Artisans can help

Serap DUO @ 730,023,371

Shultz TRI @ 216,077,807

2x Witch Ear TRI @ 622,331,562

2x MoS TRI @ 498,943,821

total ~3.19b for items where Artisans do not help

Total gear cost: 13.34b

So how much can Artisans can save you here? For that we need to calculate how many Memory Fragments are needed on average to reach TET level.

Dande/Kzarka/Nouver:

(E) 2.1x Weapon Stone; (R) 5.6x Mem Frag ; 10 FS
(E) 2.5x Weapon Stone; (R) 7.5x Mem Frag ; 10 FS
(E) 3x Weapon Stone; (R) 9.8x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 3.5x Weapon Stone; (R) 12.4x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 4.7x Weapon Stone; (R) 18.7x Mem Frag ; 12 FS
(E) 5.6x Weapon Stone; (R) 23.1x Mem Frag ; 13 FS
(E) 6.6x Weapon Stone; (R) 28.1x Mem Frag ; 16 FS
(E) 7.4x Weapon Stone; (R) 32x Mem Frag ; 18 FS
(E) 2.2x Conc W Stone; (R) 12.2x Mem Frag ; 18 FS
(E) 3.7x Conc W Stone; (R) 27x Mem Frag ; 20 FS
(E) 4x Conc W Stone; (R) 29.5x Mem Frag ; (D) 3x Re-Upgrade; 35 FS
(E) 5.1x Conc W Stone; (R) 41.1x Mem Frag ; (D) 4.1x Re-Upgrade; 55 FS

 +0 -> DUO: 5.6 + 7.5 + 9.8 + 12.4 + 18.7 + 23.1 + 28.1 + 32 +12.2 + 27 = 176.4

DUO -> TRI: 29.5 + 3 * 27 = 110.5

TRI -> TET: 41.1 + 4.1 * 110.5 = 494.15  (This is number is why i despise the current system, regardless of P2W aspects)

Total: 781 Memory Fragments needed for 1 weapon.

Boss Armor:

(E) 2.1x Armor Stone; (R) 5.6x Mem Frag ; 10 FS
(E) 3x Armor Stone; (R) 10x Mem Frag
(E) 4x Armor Stone; (R) 10x Mem Frag
(E) 3x Armor Stone; (R) 9.8x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 3.5x Armor Stone; (R) 12.4x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 3.9x Armor Stone; (R) 14.6x Mem Frag ; 12 FS
(E) 4.7x Armor Stone; (R) 18.7x Mem Frag ; 12 FS
(E) 5.6x Armor Stone; (R) 23.1x Mem Frag ; 13 FS
(E) 6.6x Armor Stone; (R) 28.1x Mem Frag ; 16 FS
(E) 7.4x Armor Stone; (R) 32x Mem Frag ; 18 FS
(E) 2.4x Conc A Stone; (R) 13.5x Mem Frag ; 16 FS
(E) 3.8x Conc A Stone; (R) 27.8x Mem Frag ; 19 FS
(E) 4.1x Conc A Stone; (R) 30.9x Mem Frag ; (D) 3.1x Re-Upgrade; 32 FS
(E) 5.3x Conc A Stone; (R) 42.7x Mem Frag ; (D) 4.3x Re-Upgrade; 52 FS

+0 -> DUO: 5.6 + 10 + 10 + 9.8 + 12.4 + 14.6 + 18.7 + 23.1 + 28.1 +32 + 13.5 + 27.8 = 206 (Edit: forgot 5.6 MF here)

DUO -> TRI: 30.9 + 3.1 * 27.8 = 117

TRI-> TET: 42.7 + 4.3 * 117 = 545.8

Total: 869 for 1 armor piece.

Full set: 781 MF * 3 + 869 MF * 4  = 5,819 MF

When using Artisans Memories: 1940 MF + 1940 MF * 40 $ / 100 MFp$ = 1940 MF + 776$ while saving roughly 2.9b in MF.

This is a significant saving, which puts selling costumes to shame. So in a way people claiming that you can save billions by using Artisans are absolutely right.

But how much of a difference is that actually? Lets go back to the total gear cost we had 13.34b. That means a CC warrior using Swipe can get that same gear for 10.44b or roughly 28% higher silver efficiency. This still sounds like alot so lets check how much net AP that can yield: Looking at the AP optimizer we can see, that 3.7b (2.9b * 1.28) starting at 229 EA_AP will get you to a little under 236 EA_AP. Which is an extra 7 AP and since it has been shown that AP scales linear it translates into roughly 3% extra damage all for the bargain price of over 770$. 3% extra damage is less than class imbalance, 1shot awakening skills, broken grabs, desync problems and can often be gained by simply stacking another AP buff if one desires (or by having luck with the enhancement system).

So how about those people selling TET gear for profit? Crafting a TET Dande would save them 2/3 * 781  * 750k = 390m. So craft cost 1.153b instead of 1.5b. When you see market prices of 1.2b and less for these items even people that are challenged by Math can see, that there is no (other than luck based) profit here. It gets much worse for PEN.

Conclusion: Using Artisans Memories can save a significant amount of money, yes even billions. However it is still not enough to sell TET+ BiS items for profit and when the saved money is invested in gear upgrades the gameplay effect is negligible, even tho 7 AP seems to be alot. Once PEN levels are reached that advantage becomes even smaller. At 260 AP it is down to a single AP. (full PEN further down)

Since defining P2W differes from person to person i suggest instead of a yes/no system we rate P2W on the ratio of whales to nolifers in the top end spectrum PvP/PvE wise.

100% P2W games include for an example: Atlantica Online (played myself for years, whales will have more than twice the damage, hitpoints etc, its litterally impossible to win) and the trash that r2games hosts on their site. I have not engaged enough in the P2W aspects of lots of other games (even tho i played dozens in the last 18 years), because i am a filthy casual and i dont care much about the top end spectrum which is either dominated by whales or nolifers and i cant compete with either anyway. Based on the above definition i would be surprised if BDO even reached as high as 10% P2W, because every aspect of its cash shop system can easily be made up by spending significant amount of time on the game, so nolifers should still massivly outnumber whales when it comes to top Tier.

Calculation for PEN (a little over 1% extra damage for 2491$):

260262.5Kzarka PENDandelion PENNouver PENOgre (200M) TRIBasilisks TRIBlue C Earring TETBlue C Earring TETCresc TRICresc TRI

Average Craft prices:

Dandelion, Kzarka and Nouver TET @ 7,493,443,934

Boss Armor x4 @ 6,604,811,410

total ~48.9b for items where Artisans can help

Ogre TRI @ 5,395,275,441 (i used the plain cost, not the 200m that the optimizer uses)

Basilisks TRI @ 2,847,068,101

2x Blue Coral Ear TET @ 1,649,573,465

2x Cresc TRI @ 2,142,244,791

total ~15.8b for items where Artisans do not help

Total gear cost: 64.7b

Weapons

TRI -> TET: 41.1 + 4.1 * 110.5 = 494.15

TET-Total: 781 Memory Fragments needed for 1 weapon.

(E) 6x Conc W Stone; (R) 49.6x Mem Frag ; (D) 5x Re-Upgrade; 81 FS

TET -> PEN: 49.6 + 5*494 = 2520

Armor:

TRI-> TET: 42.7 + 4.3 * 117 = 545.8

TET-Total: 869 for 1 armor piece.

(E) 6x Conc A Stone; (R) 50.4x Mem Frag ; (D) 5x Re-Upgrade; 79 FS

TET -> PEN: 50.4 + 5*546 = 2780

Full Set: 3 * 2520 MF + 4 * 2780 MF = 18680 MF

When using Artisans Memories: 6227 MF + 6227 MF * 40 $ / 100 MFp$ = 6227 MF + 2491$ while saving roughly 9.3b in MF.

64.7b / (64.7b - 9.3b) = 1.17 => 17% higher silver efficiency (down from 28% at TET)

9.3b extra at 262 EA_AP will get you to a little over 265 EA_AP => 3 AP difference (down from 7 at TET). This is not a contradiction to the 1 AP i said earlier in the post, the 1 AP is for 2.9b saving. 265/262 = 1.01 => a little over 1% extra damage.

Valks (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WzAeIFslcWhZ-TudUTrvt4S6ejGF8Uo5FwVqNivfHK0/edit#gid=1806222800): 

Valks offer roughly 1% per Valks (up to 10%) savings for a single item. Since upgrading your gear at TET+ levels requires multiple re-upgrades or full replacements the total amount of Valks is somewhat difficult to calculate however the cap is roughly 10% in savings. This is less than AMs but does stack. Overall at PEN levels you would approach around 28% extra silver efficiency again (higher at TET), which was shown to not make a big impact AP wise.

Edited by MajorS
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Posted

Art mens are over my personal line of what should be allowed. I'm waiting to see what that new crone stone system brings though. To many rumours going on about it.

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Posted

So in a way people claiming that you can save billions by using Artisans are absolutely right.

The issue isn't that people are claiming that it saves money, I don't think anyone can argue that they don't. However there are certain whiners that are claiming that by using AM you can EARN silver instead of saving silver. They're claiming that people can use an unlimited amount of AM to purchase lowly enchanted boss gear and then sell it on for profit, something that isn't exclusive to AM users. 

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I don't think anyone thought that enhancing up to TET with artisans memories would be profitable. TRI is a different story though. What about failstacks generated during the process, they equal to silver also.

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Posted (edited)

Conclusion: When using Artisans Memories: 1932 MF + 1932 MF * 40 $ / 100 MFp$ = 1932 MF + 773$ while saving roughly 2.9b

This is a significant saving, which puts selling costumes to shame.

FTFY. Now include everything the cashshop has to offer from 192 inventory slots for hotspot fishing/desert trading to x4 tier 4 pets for better $/hr, or even horse breeding resets/skill change coupons/premium horse appearances which will save you hundreds of hours leveling horses. All of these things allow you to progress significantly faster. 

total ~3.19b for items where Artisans do not help

Lets go back to the total gear cost we had 13.34b. That means a CC warrior can get that same gear for 10.44b or roughly 28% higher silver efficiency. This still sounds like alot so lets check how much net AP that can yield: Looking at the AP optimizer we can see, that 3.7b (2.9b * 1.28) starting at 229 EA_AP will get you to a little under 236 EA_AP. Which is an extra 7 AP and since it has been shown that AP scales linear it translates into roughly 3% extra damage all for the bargain price of over 770$. 3% extra damage

You're assuming people won't use the billions they saved on upgrading accessories. 

extra damage is less than class imbalance, 1shot awakening skills, broken grabs, desync problems

None of these things are relevant, extra damage is extra damage. 

can often be gained by simply stacking another AP buff if one desires.

When you're shilling so hard you forget whales can also stack AP buffs.

Since defining P2W differes from person to person i suggest instead of a yes/no system we rate P2W on the ratio of whales to nolifers in the top end spectrum PvP/PvE wise.

Let me refer you to this:

Pay-to-win implies paying for an advantage; it's that simple. If you think making cash shop purchases in BDO doesn't give you an advantage, then I don't know what to tell you. 

Edited by Virago
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Posted

We know. We already accepted that game is p2w. Well excuse me but I have to go enjoy it anyways.

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It's a clever system. P2w players need f2p players to beat up. So u need to veil the p2w so stupid f2p players can still flock to be slaughtered by p2w players. 

it's a 3 part parasitic system. Daum leeches money from p2w. p2w leech tears off f2p. f2p get murdered while trying to enjoy a pretty world made by Daum. 

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Posted

 

Let me refer you to this:

This is a logical fallacy, you're implying that YOUR definition is the only definition of P2W. If a game is P2W because it offers advantages then EVERY SINGLE GAME with a cash shop is P2W, doesn't matter if they're purely cosmetic cash shop. Looking different to other players if an advantage, so according to your definition every single game is P2W. :) 

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It's either that or spend all day everyday doing relics... no thank you to the second option. Not sure what's worse doing relics or grinding... 😂

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Posted

they are ppretty p2w yeah xD but i love them!!!

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Posted (edited)

they are ppretty p2w yeah xD but i love them!!!

pretty sure OP is saying they are not negligibly pay2win

Edited by Dremlock

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Posted

Yawn. Yet another topic where someone writes an hour long essay just to discover that there are some advantages in pearl shop. Who would have thought?

Love the conclusion. If you buy X artisans memory, you will have 7 more AP. LOL.

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Im strongly against the current Enhancement system in BDO past DUO and the amount of sheer luck that is needed instead of skill. However there are people that believe, that Artisans Memory significantly make the system easier and are totally P2W and i tend to try support/disprove arguments that are repeated over and over without actually backing those up, especially when it can be done by just using Math.

Some quotes (will be added after i finsh the rest)

Hidden Content

tl:dr; The financial effect of using Artisans Memory at full TET level is about 28% and will result in about 7 extra AP (if invested in AP items). This is an additional 7 AP for a character already past 225. AP scales linear so that is less than 7/225 ~ 3.1% extra damage. Which is barely enough to even reliably measure let alone be a game changer (aka P2W). Class imbalance and broken skills have a much bigger impact (especially considering most awaken skills will 1-shot anyway at these levels). The higher the base AP of players the smaller this effect becomes.

Long Version (includes Math):

As a reference i used the tables i build from the known Enhancement data especially the AP optimizer ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WzAeIFslcWhZ-TudUTrvt4S6ejGF8Uo5FwVqNivfHK0/edit#gid=235799584 , unfortunately i ran the last one with some old data, so prices are not up to date, fill fix asap)

Upgrading Armor/Weapons to Tri while not very pleasent is an achiveable goal for most players, even casual. That is about 185 AP and will cost you on average less than 1.5b.

Enhancement past TRI gets pretty nasty and this is where alot of people think, that Artisans Memory make a huge difference financially and even allow selling TET and higher items for profit on the market to gain even more of a financial advantage. I will show that that is not the case. I will also address Valks (which are not in yet) but people have asked for them and also claim that the enhancement system was designed with Valks in mind. I will show that that is also not the case.

I will focus on BiS gear: Kzarka, Dande, Nouver(because it has the most raw AP, Khutum costs the same), Boss Armor (not including Rednose). These eat the most Fragments and the effect of Artisans would be the biggest there.

Full TET:

 

227229.5Kzarka TETDandelion TETNouver TETSerap DUOShultz TRIWitch Earring TRIWitch Earring TRIMoS TRIMoS TRI

Average Craft prices:

Dandelion, Kzarka and Nouver TET @ 1,543,415,771

Boss Armor x4 @ 1,380,540,053

total ~10.15b for items where Artisans can help

Serap DUO @ 730,023,371

Shultz TRI @ 216,077,807

2x Witch Ear TRI @ 622,331,562

2x MoS TRI @ 498,943,821

total ~3.19b for items where Artisans do not help

Total gear cost: 13.34b

So how much can Artisans can save you here? For that we need to calculate how many Memory Fragments are needed on average to reach TET level.

Dande/Kzarka/Nouver:

 

(E) 2.1x Weapon Stone; (R) 5.6x Mem Frag ; 10 FS
(E) 2.5x Weapon Stone; (R) 7.5x Mem Frag ; 10 FS
(E) 3x Weapon Stone; (R) 9.8x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 3.5x Weapon Stone; (R) 12.4x Mem Frag ; 11 FS
(E) 4.7x Weapon Stone; (R) 18.7x Mem Frag ; 12 FS
(E) 5.6x Weapon Stone; (R) 23.1x Mem Frag ; 13 FS
(E) 6.6x Weapon Stone; (R) 28.1x Mem Frag ; 16 FS
(E) 7.4x Weapon Stone; (R) 32x Mem Frag ; 18 FS
(E) 2.2x Conc W Stone; (R) 12.2x Mem Frag ; 18 FS
(E) 3.7x Conc W Stone; (R) 27x Mem Frag ; 20 FS
(E) 4x Conc W Stone; (R) 29.5x Mem Frag ; (D) 3x Re-Upgrade; 35 FS
(E) 5.1x Conc W Stone; (R) 41.1x Mem Frag ; (D) 4.1x Re-Upgrade; 55 FS

 +0 -> DUO: 5.6 + 7.5 + 9.8 + 12.4 + 18.7 + 23.1 + 28.1 + 32 +12.2 + 27 = 176.4

DUO -> TRI: 29.5 + 3 * 27 = 110.5

TRI -> TET: 41.1 + 4.1 * 110.5 = 494.15  (This is number is why i despise the current system, regardless of P2W aspects)

Total: 781 Memory Fragments needed for 1 weapon.

Boss Armor (can look up values on the link above)

+0 -> DUO: 10 + 10 + 9.8 + 12.4 + 14.6 + 18.7 + 23.1 + 28.1 +32 + 13.5 + 27.8 = 200

DUO -> TRI: 30.9 + 3.1 * 27.8 = 117

TRI-> TET: 42.7 + 4.3 * 117 = 545.8

Total: 863 for 1 armor piece.

Full set: 781 MF * 3 + 863 MF * 4  = 5,795 MF

When using Artisans Memories: 1932 MF + 1932 MF * 40 $ / 100 MFp$ = 1932 MF + 773$ while saving roughly 2.9b in MF.

This is a significant saving, which puts selling costumes to shame. So in a way people claiming that you can save billions by using Artisans are absolutely right.

But how much of a difference is that actually? Lets go back to the total gear cost we had 13.34b. That means a CC warrior can get that same gear for 10.44b or roughly 28% higher silver efficiency. This still sounds like alot so lets check how much net AP that can yield: Looking at the AP optimizer we can see, that 3.7b (2.9b * 1.28) starting at 229 EA_AP will get you to a little under 236 EA_AP. Which is an extra 7 AP and since it has been shown that AP scales linear it translates into roughly 3% extra damage all for the bargain price of over 770$. 3% extra damage is less than class imbalance, 1shot awakening skills, broken grabs, desync problems and can often be gained by simply stacking another AP buff if one desires.

So how about those people selling TET gear for profit? Crafting a TET Dande would save them 2/3 * 781  * 750k = 390m. So craft cost 1.153b instead of 1.5b. When you see market prices of 1.2b and less for these items even people that are challenged by Math can see, that there is no (other than luck based) profit here. It gets much worse for PEN.

Conclusion: Using Artisans Memories can save a significant amount of money, yes even billions. However it is still not enough to sell TET+ BiS items for profit and when the saved money is invested in gear upgrades the gameplay effect is negligible, even tho 7 AP seems to be alot. Once PEN levels are reached that advantage becomes even smaller. At 260 AP it is down to a single AP. (full PEN further down)

Since defining P2W differes from person to person i suggest instead of a yes/no system we rate P2W on the ratio of whales to nolifers in the top end spectrum PvP/PvE wise.

100% P2W games include for an example: Atlantica Online (played myself for years, whales will have more than twice the damage, hitpoints etc, its litterally impossible to win) and the trash that r2games hosts on their site. I have not engaged enough in the P2W aspects of lots of other games (even tho i played dozens in the last 18 years), because i am a filthy casual and i dont care much about the top end spectrum which is either dominated by whales or nolifers and i cant compete with either anyway. Based on the above definition i would be surprised if BDO even reached as high as 10% P2W, because every aspect of its cash shop system can easily be made up by spending significant amount of time on the game, so nolifers should still massivly outnumber whales when it comes to top Tier.

[Calculation for PEN comes here]

I dont know what this means but no matter how much it hurts my soul to buy them I just bought another 100 last night, and will probably end up buying another 100 before I finish.  Mind you I have burned through 200 of these after being full tri (took about 400 to get full boss tri) just going for tets and failing and having to re-enchant

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If you buy X artisans memory, you will have 7 more AP. LOL.

OP's blatant ignoring of obvious additional circumstances, some of which outlined by Virago, calls into question if this "analysis" wasn't just conducted to confirm OP's own bias. 

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Posted

SNIP

I have always agreed our version of BDO is not p2w, at the least till Valks Cry is added but no matter how thorough your post is those who swear the opposite will not recede. Its like a life style for them lol.

Any moment now "Miki" will pop up crying all over the place.

It's either that or spend all day everyday doing relics... no thank you to the second option. Not sure what's worse doing relics or grinding... 😂

= pay for convenience

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Just had a look at this AP optimizer sheet.

If you want over 190 AP, get a TET bares necklace? LOL

And up to 230 AP, best is Liverto? Yeah.

Haha. BEST tips there, clearly optimized.

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This is a logical fallacy, you're implying that YOUR definition is the only definition of P2W. If a game is P2W because it offers advantages then EVERY SINGLE GAME with a cash shop is P2W, doesn't matter if they're purely cosmetic cash shop. Looking different to other players if an advantage, so according to your definition every single game is P2W. :) 

The top definition for "pay 2 win" on urban dictionary says, "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate."

You can take the term "pay 2 win" more literally. You paid money for an advantage. That's it, you paid to win. Nothing else defines the term.

These are both pretty universally accepted ways to define "pay 2 win". There will always be those that are okay with it, but the majority aren't. It's also one of the quickest ways to kill a game. But to each their own I guess.

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Posted

The top definition for "pay 2 win" on urban dictionary says, "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate."

Firstly why lie when it can be easily proved? Why not post the full definition?

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Can you buy gear in BDO through the cash shop? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make better items than everyone else? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make gear at a faster rate? No. (Nothing in the cash shop gets you past RNG).

Does the cash shop make the game unbalanced? No.

You can take the term "pay 2 win" more literally. You paid money for an advantage. That's it, you paid to win. Nothing else defines the term.

But there's no mention of the word advantage in the term "P2W", once again you're trying to force YOUR definition. :)  

 But to each their own I guess.

True, some people have to lie on the internet because they can't face the fact that they're wrong. :) 

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Posted

Firstly why lie when it can be easily proved? Why not post the full definition?

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Can you buy gear in BDO through the cash shop? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make better items than everyone else? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make gear at a faster rate? No. (Nothing in the cash shop gets you past RNG).

Does the cash shop make the game unbalanced? No.

But there's no mention of the word advantage in the term "P2W", once again you're trying to force YOUR definition. :)  

True, some people have to lie on the internet because they can't face the fact that they're wrong. :) 

But AM allows a person if they open their wallet to have more chances to gain TET over a person that doesn't pay money. *puts shades on my cat* 

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Posted (edited)

Firstly why lie when it can be easily proved? Why not post the full definition?

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Can you buy gear in BDO through the cash shop? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make better items than everyone else? No.

Does the cash shop allow you to make gear at a faster rate? No. (Nothing in the cash shop gets you past RNG).

Does the cash shop make the game unbalanced? No.

But there's no mention of the word advantage in the term "P2W", once again you're trying to force YOUR definition. :)  

True, some people have to lie on the internet because they can't face the fact that they're wrong. :) 

Okay, you're just an idiot then. Read all the other definitions on urban dictionary. Or just use the first one. The cash shop actually does allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate. What do you think Artisan's Memories are for? They cut down the cost of repairing thus allowing you to enhance even more compared to someone unable to get them. The cash shop also sells the ghillie suit which gives you an advantage over other players, it's true, there is no denying it. I've spent over $330 on pearls supporting this game but even I am not blind to the p2w aspects of the game.

There doesn't need to be mention of the word 'advantage' in the term "pay 2 win". The mere fact that anything is "pay 2 win" already provides an advantage. It doesn't have to be in the damn title of the phrase for it to be 'implied'. Seriously, comprehension, do you have it?

Sorry the VAST majority disagree with you bro. ^_^

Gotta love when people have to lie on the internet because they can't face the fact that they're wrong. Trolls, you either love em' or you hate em'.

Edited by Yoshihito
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Posted

still argueing about definition?

they are plain english words. "pay", "to", "win"

no definition needed. it means, you can pay and as direct implication (not chance or speculations), you will win (beat every other player in PvP who didn't pay as much as you).

because logic works in that way, that one counter example is enough to falsify the whole statement - there are people who paid and still didn't "win".

nothing else to add.

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Posted

They would not be pay to win if you could sell 100% of pearl shop items for silver with zero weekly restrictions.

 

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They would not be pay to win if you could sell 100% of pearl shop items for silver with zero weekly restrictions.

 

I love you

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Posted

They would not be pay to win if you could sell 100% of pearl shop items for silver with zero weekly restrictions.

 

Assuming the keep the marketplace restrictions that sets the price automatically based on supply/demand I would be okay with that. If not, no thanks.

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Assuming the keep the marketplace restrictions that sets the price automatically based on supply/demand I would be okay with that. If not, no thanks.

Of course it would do that, what items DON'T do that anyways?

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