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Removing or reworking super armour

227 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I've been wondering for a long time but the idea of super armour is to essentially stop you from being CCed and turned the tides of battle. But when super armour is added to your most damaging skills that have fairly tame cool downs ranging anywhere from 7 seconds to 12 seconds that also have insane debuffs and always has a cc seems kind of... Skill-less??? 

It removes the potential of out witting your opponent and if your class has no grapple there's no way to counter it either. I believe super armour should only be part of skills that either have a charge up or need casting. Skills that are extremely vulnerable when being used which are typically charge up abilities or ultimates. But not part of skills that are easy to hit e.g large aoe or 360 degree hit box and have like a 10 second cooldown

Now removing them all is a huge and drastic change however there's also a better alternative which is giving certain select skills the ability to counter super armour similar to grapple but with better reliability. Something for classes without a grapple to stay competitive.

i believe super armour currently is the single tool causing huge unbalance. It makes classes such as tamer, witch/wizard, warrior or giant which typically play extremely aggressively have to think for a moment when they initiate super armour. 

Edited by Berlioz
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Posted

Super armor it self is ok, problem is what classes it have. Super armor should be exclusive for classes fighting on frontline: valkyrie, warrior and giant. Not wizard, witch, tamer etc.

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Super armor it self is ok, problem is what classes it have. Super armor should be exclusive for classes fighting on frontline: valkyrie, warrior and giant. Not wizard, witch, tamer etc.

whilst I partially agree with your statement it isn't completely fair. Most of these front line classes whilst having super armour have it on their main abilities. Whereas a few do not and also have no way to break through it. E.g musa, maewha and sorceress. If you're going to give classes super armour and remove it from others whilst keeping grapple which is used to counter it seems vastly contradictory. 

It'll create a larger space of unbalance. Either give all classes relevant super armour abilities, give them grapple or remove it all entirely. 

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Posted

 Most of these front line classes whilst having super armour have it on their main abilities. Whereas a few do not and also have no way to break through it. E.g musa, maewha and sorceress.

Can we consider them as front line characters? I do not think so. Them job is not fight on the front line but rush behind it, that is why this classes should have better mobility and single target burst DPS. But typical defence things like super armor should be exlusive for front line classes, especially tanks (and here is the biggest absurd since valkyrie do not have super armor on main skills).

This partially probably come from fact I would like to rebalance entire game, not just fix few things. Something what we have right now is just big mess.

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Posted

Okay, so you want to take away super armor from wizards, that are close combat class (their awakening has only 1 ranged skill and it doesn't grant SA), but what would you give them instead? All other classes have shield/spammable iframes skills/high mobility, wizards don't. Without SA they would die in a second. Or maybe you just want to nerf them to the ground?

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I would personally prefer if all classes had a grapple/SA counter, assuming all things remain the same. From the perspective of a Maehwa, if i can't blow up my opponent in 1 CC combo, there's no point even continuing since most good players will immediately re-engage with some form of CC-guard (add the fact that they can't be CC by the same type for a short duration). While granted that is my role, it does seem to further reinforce the notion that I require 210ap+ to safely secure kills whilst my opponent is CC'd.

Frankly, if we wanted to emphasise the fact that a mobile class needs to fast with less innate defense, don't give the grapple a FG/SA defense while it is used, so there is some form of risk to use it as well.

(Just my 2c tho :3)

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Posted

Okay, so you want to take away super armor from wizards, that are close combat class (their awakening has only 1 ranged skill and it doesn't grant SA), but what would you give them instead? All other classes have shield/spammable iframes skills/high mobility, wizards don't. Without SA they would die in a second. Or maybe you just want to nerf them to the ground?

I dunno if you play wizard but they have a skill called protective area which gives them resistance to CCs, which is basically super armour. They have frontal block on some skills, pet which they can use to block enemy projectiles, 2 heals, and a long range dash and a range knockdown with high damage including a grapple. 

As well as all this they have a ultimate that kills entire guilds with large range and super armour and they can turn the direction of the blast I think. 

We wanna remove or give classes a grapple so that you're not safe 90% of the time, and free casting before running away healing to full hp, grappling and nuking the guy in one hit. 

Btw only one class has a spammable iframe and that sorc though spamming iframe on sorc means you can't attack. Because their attacks take stamina. The rest have speed dashes with an iframe on first use that has a 5 second cooldown. Others dashes are super armour. 

Wizards mobility is no joke considering your teleport is far longer than the 2nd longest range dash in the game which sorceress has. And you can use it twice I think and shares the same cooldown as sorceress long range dash. 

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Posted

People just have to know that they won't rework anything that you suggest here because the developers are koreans and we are getting their same patches.

 

Wizard's ultimate is already nerfed in korea, they removed the bound on hit in pvp so it doesn't instakill if you don't knockdown the oponent before and even if you knock them down they have time to escape if they are fast.

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Posted

I agree. 4 factors make a skill

Mobility, S/A or Iframe, CC, damage

A skill can have 2 of the 4.a class can have one with all 4 as their 'big cool down ' ability

Not multiple skills that fulfil 3 or all 4 of them.

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Super armor it self is ok, problem is what classes it have. Super armor should be exclusive for classes fighting on frontline: valkyrie, warrior and giant. Not wizard, witch, tamer etc.

spoken like someone who really has no clue about class balancing.

sure lets give super armor only to the classes who are by default already the tankiest and beefiest, and (most of) already have frontal guard abilities, just so it "fits" the role play aspect better.

By the way, tamer has always been a pure frontline fighter, and wit/wiz with awakening now as well.

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Posted (edited)

OP is exactly my thought, SA ruins pvp balance especialy when you have classes without grab lol. It should be only on skills with charging/channeling as you said, any ability where you can move should be front guard only at best. I support OP 100%. Good exemple of balanced SA is sorc atm.

Back in time when pvp actually required skill you didn't have a one button one trick poney mechanic as it s in this game.

Edited by PanpanTheGreat
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Posted

OP is exactly my thought, SA ruins pvp balance especialy when you have classes without grab lol. It should be only on skills with charging/channeling as you said, any ability where you can move should be front guard only at best. I support OP 100%. Good exemple of balanced SA is sorc atm.

Back in time when pvp actually required skill you didn't have a one button one trick poney mechanic as it s in this game.

Back in time when Sorc can delete you by just spamming dark flame? Yup too much skill required on that. Let's bring it back.

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Posted

Back in time when Sorc can delete you by just spamming dark flame? Yup too much skill required on that. Let's bring it back.

Funny thing you thought i considered BDO required skill at any time of its life...

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Posted (edited)

I dunno if you play wizard but they have a skill called protective area

This skill works for 8 seconds and has 1 min 40 sec cooldown. You serious?
 

They have frontal block on some skills

 

On 3 skills. 1st is swapping weapon (not really useful), 2nd is chilling wave which is utter crap that locks you in place for seconds, 3rd is Hellfire and that one is basically the only truly useful one.

pet which they can use to block enemy projectiles

 Again, we're close combat class now.

a long range dash

With 10 s cd. And that's the only escape skill we have. Now compare it to other classes, lmao.

a grapple

that works so rarely that isn't even worth trying unless you go full-acc-resist-ignore-no-ap build

We wanna remove or give classes a grapple so that you're not safe 90% of the time

I was recently doing some duels against valk with similar stats and guess what - she was able to knock me down in 50% cases. All you need is timing your attack properly.

Edited by Mido

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Posted (edited)

This skill works for 8 seconds and has 1 min 40 sec cooldown. You serious?
 

On 3 skills. 1st is swapping weapon (not really useful), 2nd is chilling wave which is utter crap that locks you in place for seconds, 3rd is Hellfire and that one is basically the only truly useful one.

 Again, we're close combat class now.

 

With 10 s cd. And that's the only escape skill we have. Now compare it to other classes, lmao.

 

that works so rarely that isn't even worth trying unless you go full-acc-resist-ignore-no-ap build

 

I was recently doing some duels against valk with similar stats and guess what - she was able to knock me down in 50% cases. All you need is timing your attack properly.

There's only one class in the game with a long range dash which is sorceress. Which is still shorter range than wizard. 

Complaining about protective area being 1 minute 40 seconds is completely irrelevant. Do you want to be able to use it every 30 seconds? Basically 8 second super armour every 30 seconds lol. 

You can go no ap and hit rock bottom 120 ap and still oneshot people.

grapple works fine, nearly everyone doesn't use manos ruby necklace and are using ogre ring. 

CCing you isn't the issue. You can't have the highest ap scaling, best cc in the game and be able to free cast whenever you want. You can't have the best of both. 

So either remove super armour to make you more vulnerable or lower ap scaling. Seems like you want less damage rather than vulnerability. 

spoken like someone who really has no clue about class balancing.

sure lets give super armor only to the classes who are by default already the tankiest and beefiest, and (most of) already have frontal guard abilities, just so it "fits" the role play aspect better.

By the way, tamer has always been a pure frontline fighter, and wit/wiz with awakening now as well.

I agree with this statement vastly. Either add super armour and relevant super armour to all class with a way to counter it e.g grapple or remove it entirely. 

I agree. 4 factors make a skill

Mobility, S/A or Iframe, CC, damage

A skill can have 2 of the 4.a class can have one with all 4 as their 'big cool down ' ability

Not multiple skills that fulfil 3 or all 4 of them.

Quoting this statement so @Mido can look at it. 

Edited by Berlioz

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Posted (edited)

There's only one class in the game with a long range dash which is sorceress. Which is still shorter range than wizard. 

Complaining about protective area being 1 minute 40 seconds is completely irrelevant. Do you want to be able to use it every 30 seconds? Basically 8 second super armour every 30 seconds lol. 

You can go no ap and hit rock bottom 120 ap and still oneshot people.

grapple works fine, nearly everyone doesn't use manos ruby necklace and are using ogre ring. 

CCing you isn't the issue. You can't have the highest ap scaling, best cc in the game the game and be able to free cast whenever you want. You can't have the best of both. 

So either remove super armour to make you more vulnerable or lower ap scaling. Seems like you want less damage rather than vulnerability. 

I agree with this statement vastly. Either add super armour and relevant super armour to all class with a way to counter it e.g grapple or remove it entirely. 

Quoting this statement so @Mido can look at it. 

you're so clueless at the game can you please stop posting, if you can't beat every class in the game 1v1 as a sorc you're simply clueless, dumb and trash

 

SA works as intended and not every class needs grapple, only thing they need to fix is the dumb desync so that you don't get cced through iframes

Edited by BdoTemp1
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Posted (edited)

Back in time when Sorc can delete you by just spamming dark flame? Yup too much skill required on that. Let's bring it back.

Back when every class that had grapple didn't grapple whilst dark flame was being used, instead took full damage to the face and died XD.

EDIT.

FFS it didn't merge 

you're so clueless at the game can you please stop posting, if you can't beat every class in the game 1v1 as a sorc you're simply clueless, dumb and trash

 

SA works as intended and not every class needs grapple, only thing they need to fix is the dumb desync so that you don't get cced through iframes

No one said I couldn't. I'll still beat nearly all classes 1v1, winning isn't a issue for me it's what I do. What I'm arguing is skill > safety. If you make a mistake you should get punished for it. Not rewarded. You know like proper action/fighting games.

But what would I know. You got beat 1v1 by WARRIOR WEAK CLASS of all people haha. 

Edited by Berlioz

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Posted (edited)

Back when every class that had grapple didn't grapple whilst dark flame was being used, instead took full damage to the face and died XD.

EDIT.

FFS it didn't merge 

No one said I couldn't. I'll still beat nearly all classes 1v1, winning isn't a issue for me it's what I do. What I'm arguing is skill > safety. If you make a mistake you should get punished for it. Not rewarded. You know like proper action/fighting games.

But what would I know. You got beat 1v1 by WARRIOR WEAK CLASS of all people haha. 

uh, you do realize i won around 80-70% of the duels vs him? it's his video, he mostly put the videos where he won, but i got a 1hour shadowplay from that session i could upload :)

 

vvKtCAX.jpg

so easy to talk when you don't even know the context behind your statements

Edited by BdoTemp1
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Posted (edited)

uh, you do realize i won around 80-70% of the duels vs him? it's his video, he mostly put the videos where he won, but i got a 1hour shadowplay from that session i could upload :)

Honestly don't care about your epeen or how badly you need to wank over some 1v1 duel when most of the game centers around group pvp. And to be fair, he didn't once counter your violation with iframe > stagger > overwhelm. Mostly cos he doesn't know about it. Hence why I said "of all people".

Anyways enough going off topic.

Can you instead talk about the subject which is at hand? How to make pvp more skillful whilst reworking or changing aspects of super armour to account for more skill rather than allowing players to freely cast abilities and otherwise dodge potentially punishing moments because of super armour? 

Edited by Berlioz

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Posted (edited)

Honestly don't care about your epeen or how badly you need to wank over some 1v1 duel when most of the game centers around group pvp. And to be fair, he didn't once counter your violation with iframe > stagger > overwhelm. Mostly cos he doesn't know about it

Anyways enough going off topic.

Can you instead talk about the subject which is at hand? How to make pvp more skillful whilst reworking or changing aspects of super armour to account for more skill rather than allowing players to freely cast abilities and otherwise dodge potentially punishing moments because of super armour? 

lol, maybe because i didn't let him counter me like that? maybe because such mechanics only work on trash sorcs like you who don't know how to cancer violation or have no reaction timing? pvp is already skillful, only clueless players like you who are -----ing dumb and entirely clueless about anything they're saying say it's not, the only thing that needs fixing is cc through iframes

Edited by BdoTemp1

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Posted (edited)

lol, maybe because i didn't let him counter me like that? maybe because such mechanics only work on trash sorcs like you who don't know how to cancer violation or have no reaction timing? pvp is already skillful, only clueless players like you who are -----ing dumb and entirely clueless about anything they're saying say it's not, the only thing that needs fixing is cc through iframes

I loled. 

You're raging so furiously ATM that you don't even know that you wrote cancer instead of cancel, use a comma for no reason, stopped making sense on the third sentence and you think this whole post is about how sorceress is a weak class which it's far from. I mean come on, "only clueless players like you who are -----ing dumb and entirely clueless about anything they're saying it's not, the only thing that needs fixing is cc through frames".  

If you're going to call other people dumb you better step up your game and stop typing sentences like a 5 year old. Like seriously? "Clueless players like you". "entirely clueless about anything". 

But whatevs, as soon as you called BDO pvp skillful you lost the argument. Like who in the right mind thinks a game where 80% is armour/weapons makes up skill. Then again what did I expect XD. You're defending the super armour mechanic. I doubt you've ever played any competitive pvp game before like 90% of the community.

If you're really this adamant about your skill, gimme a month or two to get back into the game, hit lvl 60 and rebuild my new set, get dande and figure out the new gear meta. 

 

Edited by Berlioz
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Posted

You can go no ap and hit rock bottom 120 ap and still oneshot people.

I have 190 AP and valk with 250 DP can survive my ultimate using her shield. Stop talking bs.

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Posted (edited)

I loled. 

You're raging so furiously ATM that you don't even know that you wrote cancer instead of cancel, use a comma for no reason, stopped making sense on the third sentence and you think this whole post is about how sorceress is a weak class which it's far from. I mean come on, "only clueless players like you who are -----ing dumb and entirely clueless about anything they're saying it's not, the only thing that needs fixing is cc through frames".  

If you're going to call other people dumb you better step up your game and stop typing sentences like a 5 year old. Like seriously? "Clueless players like you". "entirely clueless about anything". 

But whatevs, as soon as you called BDO pvp skillful you lost the argument. Like who in the right mind thinks a game where 80% is armour/weapons makes up skill. Then again what did I expect XD. You're defending the super armour mechanic. I doubt you've ever played any competitive pvp game before like 90% of the community.

If you're really this adamant about your skill, gimme a month or two to get back into the game, hit lvl 60 and rebuild my new set, get dande and figure out the new gear meta. 

 

you're right, i wrote that at 3 am and was no clue what my brain was typing anymore, but you did get the point cause it made sense, people who have no idea like you (you even confirm it) are clueless about the game but pretend you're not (again, you keep proving it over and over)

 

let's see, i've been rank1 in wow during multiple seasons and also been challenger on league, yet "you doubt i've ever played any competitive pvp game before like 90% of the community" when 90% of the community hasn't touched proper pvp in this game (again, look at you) and are just lvl 56 trash with livertos who have no idea what they're doing

 

80% of the armor/weapons make up skill? ok

ZG4UaQY.jpg

ZpGKZ2L.jpg

BPYPO63.jpg

 

i guess that deleting a 303 dp evasion stacked ranger through pots with 162 sheet ap proves this game needs an absurd amount of gear to be able to beat people, right?

 

go "gear up" (we'll pretend it'll help your poor mechanics) and get back into the game meta, we'll see how good you are once you feel a bit more confident, once you realize that oneuproad is easily the best warrior in eu and how the class mechanics work and how easy countering overwhelm back attack through violation as a sorc is, amongst many other super armor mechanics which are easily counterable maybe we'll have this argument again, because you'll find out that yes, wiz/witches are strong in group pvp, but not because of SA, but of the meta. witch/wiz has always been strong even before they had SA, so what's the point anyway. however, other classes with a large amount of SA aren't nearly as strong in group pvp (warriors for example)

 

SA/block/iframe work like paper rock scisors, if you can't apply that logic to your playstyle then im afraid you're lost

Edited by BdoTemp1
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Posted

1) Superarmor can be countered by grab
2) Superarmor can be shot down
3) if you reduce SA you also need to reduce spammable ccs on every class.
4) iframes are much superior

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Posted (edited)

There's only one class in the game with a long range dash which is sorceress. Which is still shorter range than wizard. 

Complaining about protective area being 1 minute 40 seconds is completely irrelevant. Do you want to be able to use it every 30 seconds? Basically 8 second super armour every 30 seconds lol. 

You can go no ap and hit rock bottom 120 ap and still oneshot people.

grapple works fine, nearly everyone doesn't use manos ruby necklace and are using ogre ring. 

CCing you isn't the issue. You can't have the highest ap scaling, best cc in the game and be able to free cast whenever you want. You can't have the best of both. 

So either remove super armour to make you more vulnerable or lower ap scaling. Seems like you want less damage rather than vulnerability. 

I agree with this statement vastly. Either add super armour and relevant super armour to all class with a way to counter it e.g grapple or remove it entirely. 

Quoting this statement so @Mido can look at it. 

I'm curious, do you play a Wizard? I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions here. 

Double Teleport does not take you out of view range. First you can see the white dot on your minimap for the first teleport (to see what direction they went if they tricked you with a camera turn, which most won't), and I've never teleported out of draw distance or seen one teleport out of my own draw distance. Most classes have ways to move fast afaik and catch if you immediately move in the Witch/Wiz direction when you see where the first teleport landed. I've had Musa get back on top of me before I could even get 1 tick of Healing Lighthouse off after a double teleport. 

As far as I can tell you were the one complaining about protective area. That posted pointed out that it has a relatively long cooldown. The 2+2 here is that long cooldown abilities should probably be fairly strong. 

120 AP will not one shot anyone, even with a 100% bollide (which is definitely too strong right now, probably better with the KR change removing bound). Around 150-160 AP at level 60 (so you have flows), assuming you land everything, a single large combo can kill a 260-280ish AP opponent. That would be something like Hellfire > Cataclysm > Water Sphere > Flame Knot (grab) > Water Sphere + Aqua Bomb > Aqua Jail. As far as I know, a lot of classes can wombo combo like this if everything lands. The particular combo I mentioned has a huge weak point with the grab. 

As far as the grab, let's consider a few things here - First, it only has one hit and zero accuracy bonus. All other wizard skills have huge accuracy bonuses on them, so unless they build specifically for landing grab (bheg's + RCE + Tree, maybe more), it's not going to land consistently. In addition it has no resist penetration bonus, but you can at least get 30% with Kutum and 2x Precision crystals which like you said will work against people who don't have a large amount of grapple resist. However, people can easily get a lot more resists - Witches for example will have ~55% grapple resist before gear if they have their short duration buffs up (mana shield and block buff). 

I do feel strongly that Witch/Wiz would simply be free kills if you remove super armor from their point blank skills since they have cast times, can't be cancelled, and have to be used in close range (within 10m for all super armor abilities, except maybe Thunder Storm on Witch that might be 15m or so). Almost all classes if not all have either a ranged CC or a very fast CCing gap closer that they could land within the cast times, and that's assuming they don't just smack them with a melee-range CC since they have to be in near melee range to get hit by the skills being casted. They already don't have super armor on their longer ranged skills - at best frontal block. Honestly I don't have much trouble fighting Witch/Wiz on my Warrior, but I think it's because I play both and know their skills really well (but I'll admit warrior is a strong 1v1 character). Everything has a unique and VERY obvious animation which allows you to capitalize on the openings if you are paying attention to the enemy instead of just trying to crack off combos. Worst thing you can do is mindlessly trade blows with them because they are in their element when you do that. 

Edited by Kutsuu
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