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Removing or reworking super armour

227 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

as in this video i don't believe super armor even needs a change, you may see it as incredible strong but i see if as an unreliable source of immunity, because half the time its used it doesn't work., 90% of the immunes that happen in this video come from my 90% knockdown res

Edited by PsychoticFlamez

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as in this video i don't believe super armor even needs a change, you may see it as incredible strong but i see if as an unreliable source of immunity, because half the time its used it doesn't work., 90% of the immunes that happen in this video come from my 90% knockdown res

Mother of god, he hits like a wet noodle!? 

Even violation whilst on the ground barely any damage, air smash with vio no damage. He cant even aim violation, nor does he do scythe cancels. 

Super armour side that was TERRIBLE gameplay from the enemy. He even missed his high accuracy skills e.g dark flame, dream of doom at point blank range. Even if you were in super armour he's not gonna damage you.

But then again... NA... 

This is how you should do damage as a sorc against a warrior. Anything less its useless. 

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Mother of god, he hits like a wet noodle!? 

Even violation whilst on the ground barely any damage, air smash with vio no damage. He cant even aim violation, nor does he do scythe cancels. 

Super armour side that was TERRIBLE gameplay from the enemy. He even missed his high accuracy skills e.g dark flame, dream of doom at point blank range. Even if you were in super armour he's not gonna damage you.

But then again... NA... 

This is how you should do damage as a sorc against a warrior. Anything less its useless. 

now your talking about something completely different, your talking about a difference in gear score, high ap changes everything but so does high dp, what i'm trying to say is at that point fighting anyone with a higher gs would be completely irrelevant regarding this thread which is about balance. you view it as wet noodles when in reality that is what an even gearscore fight looks like. both videos display, all the evidence needed without super armor warriors would have no reliable peel or way to distance themselfs from enemys that can blow them apart, and if in this video you linked were to have 2 or 3 more people against oneup, it would still be balanced, because the way this game is set up its balanced with node wars in mind. not 1v1's but the fact that 1v1's are so even, says alot

Edited by PsychoticFlamez

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now your talking about something completely different, your talking about a difference in gear score, high ap changes everything but so does high dp, what i'm trying to say is at that point fighting anyone with a higher gs would be completely irrelevant regarding this thread which is about balance. you view it as wet noodles when in reality that is what an even gearscore fight looks like. 

Check oneuproad's GS in said video. I know exactly what ur talking about. 
 

And gear score aside sorceress is heavily dependent on it. No accuracy no damage. Everyone in NA runs AP monkey. He was literally missing full violations and entire CC's. He couldn't even break your block. 

The game needs to be balanced around end game gear. It's stupid to balance on crappy average gear. 

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Check oneuproad's GS in said video. I know exactly what ur talking about. 
 

And gear score aside sorceress is heavily dependent on it. No accuracy no damage. Everyone in NA runs AP monkey. He was literally missing full violations and entire CC's. He couldn't even break your block. 

The game needs to be balanced around end game gear. It's stupid to balance on crappy average gear. 

this thread is officially a meme.

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this thread is officially a meme.

IMG_1078.thumb.JPG.0dc007867eb55891df125

lul. 

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I'm referring to you specifically. I gave you this exact same statement multiple times. I gave 2 or 3 other users pretty much the same statement.

Honestly, if they removed violations damage, kept the cc and frontal block I'd be fine with it. Stacking accuracy is the only way to go with sorceress ATM since violation hits 11 times and has a unique way it works. It does down slash or if the enemy is CCed into the air, air smash. If used properly you can get air smash and down smash in 1 violation alone creating an assured one shot one kill as long as the enemy isn't putting up block. High skill cap right?

So yes. I do believe it should be removed. At least the damage. Though violation is unique. It also removes collision and also takes stamina. Either make it full damage or make it CC. But if you do that I except heavy buffs on turn back slash and dead hunt. Since both of them don't even come close to the damage to time ratio that is violation.

I dunno, people from enemy, soveriegn, harmony?? Lemons guild, hostile?? etc etc. You know people running tri ogre ring, tri red coral earring x2 tet main hand and awakening. The weak stuff typically. The pleb or pen community. And if they're weak I need to be fighting at least 5 of them alone. Not to mention I kinda play in fairly average gear myself. 

The thing is sorceress can be a skill heavy class. Is it currently with how violation works in this meta? Of course not. If they nerfed it and buffed other skills creating combos on a class that should combo? Hell yes. 

Will that make problems? Ofc. Once violation does no damage and solely a CC ability there's no counter to block on sorceress. Now what you replace with that is up to you. Honestly I want Sorceress F ability to stun if I teleport behind an enemy and not just randomly keep me in the same place even if I have lock on, on the enemy. It would be a great counter to frontal block. Creating a higher skill cap. But ultimately useless against the warrior block.

Btw damage output strongly influences win ratio. If you can do 1 CC that lasts 2 seconds, and your damage output does 2.5k damage in 1.75 seconds. That means you only need to put down one CC no extends to end said player. Now putting down said CC is all debatable. Certain CCs are easier to land than others and players react differently due to personal preference. Good comparison is how Eiene relies on violation, oneuproad on solar flare, overwhelm, my brother relies on forward thrust, grapple, I rely on crow, TBS, midnight stinger, or violation depending on the situation and enemy. Everyone has their niche of what they rely on. After that it's how they put said damage on which is fairly uniform. 

Damage influences win ratio but developers only care about the result. They 100% do not care about the number of skills required to win. There are still two outcomes from this.

  1. they nerf violation because the skill is overpowered
  2. they leave everything as is because violation is just as overpowered

The last discussion they had on balance had to do with buffing pre-awakening. If anything they will buff amulet before they change scythe.

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Posted (edited)

 

Damage influences win ratio but developers only care about the result. They 100% do not care about the number of skills required to win. There are still two outcomes from this.

  1. they nerf violation because the skill is overpowered
  2. they leave everything as is because violation is just as overpowered

The last discussion they had on balance had to do with buffing pre-awakening. If anything they will buff amulet before they change scythe.

That's in regards to bringing main hand on par to awakening in a interview whilst they were at taiwan. 

Also this is less in regards to amount of skills but rather combo's. When i get grappled combo'ed i feel that loss was deserved, he worked to get that combo off. When a sorceress spins through you and kills you in 1 violation it feels less so. Same with a ranger who grapples then oneshots you. There's very little counter play to it and even harder for teammates to save you. 

E.g why is sorceress the high skill cap class killing people with little to no combos but the low skill cap class warrior is the opposite. 

Edited by Berlioz

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That's in regards to bringing main hand on par to awakening in a interview whilst they were at taiwan. 

Also this is less in regards to amount of skills but rather combo's. When i get grappled combo'ed i feel that loss was deserved, he worked to get that combo off. When a sorceress spins through you and kills you in 1 violation it feels less so. Same with a ranger who grapples then oneshots you. There's very little counter play to it and even harder for teammates to save you. 

You hate the meta, that has nothing to do with balance. But I think I understand your motivation better.

You fell in love with, as the devs described it,  "a dexterous master of the black arts. Sorceresses can cast many different dark spells toward enemies to prevail at any range."

And then the meta destroyed all of that.

The meta killed ranged amulet builds, and then it killed hybrid scythe builds. It killed all but the most essentially utility, and robbed you of your versatility. 

The meta turned you into a violation bot because it doesn't care about super armor it cares about getting behind guard. 

If violation had only frontal guard and the same damage it would be the same situation. 

If violation was a grapple with no guard but the same damage it would be the same situation.

This is why they are buffing the preawakening before any super armor re-work. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

You hate the meta, that has nothing to do with balance. But I think I understand your motivation better.

You fell in love with, as the devs described it,  "a dexterous master of the black arts. Sorceresses can cast many different dark spells toward enemies to prevail at any range."

And then the meta destroyed all of that.

The meta killed ranged amulet builds, and then it killed hybrid scythe builds. It killed all but the most essentially utility, and robbed you of your versatility. 

The meta turned you into a violation bot because it doesn't care about super armor it cares about getting behind guard. 

If violation had only frontal guard and the same damage it would be the same situation. 

If violation was a grapple with no guard but the same damage it would be the same situation.

This is why they are buffing the preawakening before any super armor re-work. 

 

 

Yeah basically, I'm still going to hold out and see how the rework with main hand will play out. In the interview they mentioned small tweaks before a huge overhaul. Which we have gotten, it's just the main overhaul we're waiting for now. 

They dubbed it as the "main hand awakening". Now if it lives up to it is a whole 'nother story.

Edited by Berlioz

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Posted (edited)

Yeah basically, I'm still going to hold out and see how the rework with main hand will play out. In the interview they mentioned small tweaks before a huge overhaul. Which we have gotten, it's just the main overhaul we're waiting for now. 

They dubbed it as the "main hand awakening". Now if it lives up to it is a whole 'nother story.

Its good we reached an understanding. But it took very long to get here.

  1. You can stop a thread from dying by tilting people into bumping it, but you gain nothing and you lose the respect of the community. Every git gud and lol you wrote derailed your own thread.
  2. You can advocate your desires without using bad arguments. If you told the truth from the beginning this discussion would have been so much better. Its okay to demand a change purely because of enjoyment. Sorc isn't the only one that misses their main weapon.

I hate this version of Tamer. The only skill she used from shortsword was the grab. She didn't even have her pet summoned. Whats the point of being able to make Heilang invincible if we don't even use him.

 

Edited by Kentigem

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Its good we reached an understanding. But it took very long to get here.

  1. You can stop a thread from dying by tilting people into bumping it, but you gain nothing and you lose the respect of the community. Every git gud and lol you wrote derailed your own thread.
  2. You can advocate your desires without using bad arguments. If you told the truth from the beginning this discussion would have been so much better. Its okay to demand a change purely because of enjoyment. Sorc isn't the only one that misses their main weapon.

I hate this version of Tamer. The only skill she used from shortsword was the grab. She didn't even have her pet summoned. Whats the point of being able to make Heilang invincible if we don't even use him.

 

Im not sure about tamer. There has been moments when players using main hand tamer have been able to nuke in one grapple chaining the previous air combo that tamer had. The old tamer combo that didn't rely on ground slapping is also still very viable. Including the major cc combos. 

E.g the gameplay is still very much there. It's just that it's easier to use awakening because it's safer than tamer WW iframe. Plus the amount of work needed to use main hand combos was a problem. 

In other words it's all about kill time and ease of use for tamer. 

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Im not sure about tamer. There has been moments when players using main hand tamer have been able to nuke in one grapple chaining the previous air combo that tamer had. The old tamer combo that didn't rely on ground slapping is also still very viable. Including the major cc combos. 

E.g the gameplay is still very much there. It's just that it's easier to use awakening because it's safer than tamer WW iframe. Plus the amount of work needed to use main hand combos was a problem. 

In other words it's all about kill time and ease of use for tamer. 

I don't see how that's any different than Sorc. Kill time and ease of use.

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I don't see how that's any different than Sorc. Kill time and ease of use.

That's the thing I'm trying to say. 

Ease of use.

Low kill time

Awakening kit is extremely easy to use. Anyone with little to no experience can pick it up and use it effectively. Super armour makes said kit even more face roll compared to main hand. 

What should be done is that skill damage should be relative to the players actual skillful ability to play their class. E.g the better the player is the more he should get rewarded. Skillful abilities and execution of combos rather than spamming and relying on one skill. Spamming skills should open the player up to counter play. But that isn't the case because the skills players spam have super armour. In other words, if you don't have a grapple there's no way to counter it. So otherwise very predictable engagements become a battle of attrition. It wouldn't be a issue if said super armour skills were not damage, cc and defense. 

Whoever's super armour is on cooldown wins. It becomes a fight of Rock Paper Scissors. 

My idea of balance is that your high damage skills should have some sort of counter play. The best example I can think of is sorceress violation. Sorceress vs sorceress, if you spam violation you can counter play it by dodging through and doing turn back slash to knock the player down and cancel the skills. Vs warrior you can dash to the side and use overwhelm to once again cancel it and cc the enemy. 

What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range. Though most warriors don't use grave digger if the enemy is standing up. So the nerf won't affect hardened veterans but rather new players. It may slightly hurt their PVP ability in node war however since if they're alone they can be peeled away from your team mate in turn creating more versatile group pvp.

Long story short, raise the bar so people can't easily do things and get the same effect of players that do skillful, timed, CC combos. Players shouldn't be forced to use cheesy tactics simply because combos are ineffective. 

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That's the thing I'm trying to say. 

Ease of use.

Low kill time

Awakening kit is extremely easy to use. Anyone with little to no experience can pick it up and use it effectively. Super armour makes said kit even more face roll compared to main hand. 

What should be done is that skill damage should be relative to the players actual skillful ability to play their class. E.g the better the player is the more he should get rewarded. Skillful abilities and execution of combos rather than spamming and relying on one skill. Spamming skills should open the player up to counter play. But that isn't the case because the skills players spam have super armour. In other words, if you don't have a grapple there's no way to counter it. So otherwise very predictable engagements become a battle of attrition. It wouldn't be a issue if said super armour skills were not damage, cc and defense. 

Whoever's super armour is on cooldown wins. It becomes a fight of Rock Paper Scissors. 

My idea of balance is that your high damage skills should have some sort of counter play. The best example I can think of is sorceress violation. Sorceress vs sorceress, if you spam violation you can counter play it by dodging through and doing turn back slash to knock the player down and cancel the skills. Vs warrior you can dash to the side and use overwhelm to once again cancel it and cc the enemy. 

What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range. Though most warriors don't use grave digger if the enemy is standing up. So the nerf won't affect hardened veterans but rather new players. It may slightly hurt their PVP ability in node war however since if they're alone they can be peeled away from your team mate in turn creating more versatile group pvp.

Long story short, raise the bar so people can't easily do things and get the same effect of players that do skillful, timed, CC combos. Players shouldn't be forced to use cheesy tactics simply because combos are ineffective. 

yeah make warrior useless again, did you play warrior sword and shield? the animation cancel spinning slash was our only source of damage, not to mention a super slow, easily dodged aoe cc that was completely useless, warrior before awakening change was the most useless thing in this game, it was complete trash that couldn't compete evenly on any ground with any class ingame. by your logic warrior should be able to kill people with 150 ap with sword and board in one spinning slash combo, which wasn't the case i had 181 ap before awakening and one combo didnt put them past 25% hp, let alone the amount of effort i had to put in to get my enemy on the ground. long story short. keep the bar low but make it so those who know the class better will still preform better because they know optimal combos and optimal animation cancels/tips and trick that allow them to preform leagues better then people playing the same class, which is how it is currently rn. and gravedigger leaves you wide open so people with frontal blocks can zoom in and grab you or half your health while your in mid animation, gravedigger is an amazing cc ability that does exactly what its supposed to cc/and apply debuffs its one of the 3 useful abilities warrior even has, it serves its purpose well without being overpowered and if you don't think so then i employ you to lvl a warrior to 59 and go into rbf, i challenge you to survive aoeing a group which the skill was designed for and either not get grabbed immediately or not die immediately. saying oh this skill is op oh this class is op, isn't going to change anything but trigger the classes community to instantly lash out at "excuse me" those retard statements. unless you have every character level 59 or at least 59 with 450+ gs then you can't/ or shouldn't make those statements. because i can tell you from experience warrior isn't as op as you think.

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yeah make warrior useless again, did you play warrior sword and shield? the animation cancel spinning slash was our only source of damage, not to mention a super slow, easily dodged aoe cc that was completely useless, warrior before awakening change was the most useless thing in this game, it was complete trash that couldn't compete evenly on any ground with any class ingame. by your logic warrior should be able to kill people with 150 ap with sword and board in one spinning slash combo, which wasn't the case i had 181 ap before awakening and one combo didnt put them past 25% hp, let alone the amount of effort i had to put in to get my enemy on the ground. long story short. keep the bar low but make it so those who know the class better will still preform better because they know optimal combos and optimal animation cancels/tips and trick that allow them to preform leagues better then people playing the same class, which is how it is currently rn. and gravedigger leaves you wide open so people with frontal blocks can zoom in and grab you or half your health while your in mid animation, gravedigger is an amazing cc ability that does exactly what its supposed to cc/and apply debuffs its one of the 3 useful abilities warrior even has, it serves its purpose well without being overpowered and if you don't think so then i employ you to lvl a warrior to 59 and go into rbf, i challenge you to survive aoeing a group which the skill was designed for and either not get grabbed immediately or not die immediately. saying oh this skill is op oh this class is op, isn't going to change anything but trigger the classes community to instantly lash out at "excuse me" those retard statements. unless you have every character level 59 or at least 59 with 450+ gs then you can't/ or shouldn't make those statements. because i can tell you from experience warrior isn't as op as you think.

No one said grave digger itself was OP. We're talking about how 90% of warriors use it which is just spam grave digger and hope he CC graises the enemy. And the debuffs making it so the enemy cannot recover since the debuffs last as long as the cooldown of the actual CC ability. 

E.g no skill involved. Btw you don't need a warrior with a gear score over 450+ Oneuproad is deleting with broken gear. But that's a whole other topic. Since I'm not talking about actual class balance but the mechanics each class has.

Moving on grave digger doesn't only apply cc and debuffs it also does an extremely large amount of damage and shields the player from CC. One skill that does Damage, CC, Super armour and debuffs. 

Anyways like I said this nerf won't be a problem for the 10% of warriors who know how to play it since they use it after the enemy is already CC'ed which is after a overwhelm if pre 59 or after wreckless blow which is post 58. You lose so much damage if you don't stick overwhelm debuff on them and use grave digger. It's free down attack damage at a percentage. 

Like I said, split the casuals from the people who are competent. Not this class is OP. Bring skill combos and chains back. Not "I spam grave digger, I am pro warrior". Lol. 

As for main hand, I have no idea what you're ranting about. This wasn't a discussion about warrior main hand but specifically one skill and how newb players rely on it as an example to show "ease of use" and "kill time" 

Its easy to spam grave digger and sit in block all day. What's harder is doing a combo. Also red battlefield is probably the worse example of group pvp you could give. ATM it's just filled with witches and wizard. They'll burn through block + super armour regardless of class and regardless of their AP.

A better example is node wars. 

A nerf you would most definitely hate is super armour on block on warriors and removing the lingering super armour it also has when the enemy hits it. But I didn't comment on that instead I kept your best defense intact and asked for a simple nerf to reliance. 

Edited by Berlioz

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No one said grave digger itself was OP. We're talking about how 90% of warriors use it which is just spam grave digger and hope he CC graises the enemy. And the debuffs making it so the enemy cannot recover since the debuffs last as long as the cooldown of the actual CC ability. 

E.g no skill involved. Btw you don't need a warrior with a gear score over 450+ Oneuproad is deleting with broken gear. 

Moving on grave digger doesn't only apply cc and debuffs it also does an extremely large amount of damage and shields the player from CC. One skill that does Damage, CC, Super armour and debuffs. 

Anyways like I said this nerf won't be a problem for the 10% of warriors who know how to play it since they use it after the enemy is already CC'ed which is after a overwhelm if pre 59 or after wreckless blow which is post 58. You lose so much damage if you don't stick overwhelm debuff on them and use grave digger. It's free down attack damage at a percentage. 

Like I said, split the casuals from the people who are competent. Not this class is OP. Bring skill combos and chains back. Not "I spam grave digger, I am pro warrior". Lol. 

As for main hand, I have no idea what you're ranting about. This wasn't a discussion about warrior main hand but specifically one skill and how newb players rely on it as an example to show "ease of use" and "kill time" 

Its easy to spam grave digger and sit in block all day. What's harder is doing a combo. Also red battlefield is probably the worse example of group pvp you could give. ATM it's just filled with witches and wizard. They'll burn through block + super armour regardless of class and regardless of their AP.

A better example is node wars. 

Which is basically the same thing but rbf is easier, it tells you whos camping in the back aoeing your team and who you need to focus, your stating its op by saying that it has all these amazing Pro's and not listing the cons which i have done, the opposite arguement can be made about gravedigger you see a warrior spamming it? cool free damage on him, you see him blocking? cool free back attack damage, if you werent aware which i doubt you were after gravedigger before the animation is finished you can cc them, also while dashing at the end of the dash no super armor easy cc. you keep saying how impossible it is to kill a warrior when i'm telling you straight up its easier then you think. these people you think are casual probably play more then you daily and the people your playing against are far above your on skill level and you can't comprehend that they just might be better then you. your saying a noob could jump into the middle of a group and use gravedigger, cool arguement an idiot can sorc ball a group of enemys, an idiot can zerker ult a group of enemys, an idiot can musa ult a group of enemy's. the trick here is PLAYING AROUND IT. its called using your brain and countering it if you see a warrior jumping into a middle of your group its -----ing obvious what hes about to do move the ----- out or block it.

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Which is basically the same thing but rbf is easier, it tells you whos camping in the back aoeing your team and who you need to focus, your stating its op by saying that it has all these amazing Pro's and not listing the cons which i have done, the opposite arguement can be made about gravedigger you see a warrior spamming it? cool free damage on him, you see him blocking? cool free back attack damage, if you werent aware which i doubt you were after gravedigger before the animation is finished you can cc them, also while dashing at the end of the dash no super armor easy cc. you keep saying how impossible it is to kill a warrior when i'm telling you straight up its easier then you think. these people you think are casual probably play more then you daily and the people your playing against are far above your on skill level and you can't comprehend that they just might be better then you. your saying a noob could jump into the middle of a group and use gravedigger, cool arguement an idiot can sorc ball a group of enemys, an idiot can zerker ult a group of enemys, an idiot can musa ult a group of enemy's. the trick here is PLAYING AROUND IT. its called using your brain and countering it if you see a warrior jumping into a middle of your group its -----ing obvious what hes about to do move the ----- out or block it.

How are you taking so much damage as a warrior????? Free back attack? Are you standing still? Free damage on grave digger? Like 100% of the time you're going to have your frontal block skills off cool down?  Like all classes have frontal block skills like a maewha? Most of the classes who trade with warriors grave digger will be trading with another super armour ability  e.g getting the heavy debuffs on them. 

Where are you even coming up with most of this stuff? You act like repositioning on warrior is a difficult task. Like it has the worse mobility in the game. Which is probably held by witches/wizards. They're the ones that should be complaining about being attacked in the back not a warrior haha.

Also you assume that everyone can continuously attack like a sorceress to tag you at the end of your dash. How are tamers, maewha, musa, witches and wizards suppose to hit you in that time frame? 

Btw not once did I say warrior was impossible to kill. Just time consuming which is good. But  the bad warriors should get punished further for playing badly. If you make a mistake you should get heavily punished for it. Not rewarded. And to be fair most warriors just sit there and turtle taking free hits. I'm sorry the quality of warriors back in march last year to march this year is just hilarious. 

As for comparing grave digger to other classes ULTIMATE black spirit rage abilities. I dunno. I don't even understand the comparison. I mean one requires black spirit rage whilst the other has a 10 second cooldown was it? I forget. Oh and super armour, debuffs and high damage and CC that has two tap effect. 

Musa ultimate, sorc ultimate, giant ultimate... you know what they have in common? They only CC the enemy and in giants case also heal him. You know what you can also do? Easily block them, escape them and also CC said enemy because they either have frontal block or nothing at all cancelling the ultimate cast time if you're fast enough. 

Now onto the main point. Why the ----- is a warrior jumping in a group of enemies? Oh that's right because it's easy and he won't get punished for it. 

Which is the whole point of this super armour argument. Why are you taking the role that is made for giant and valkyrie's which do what you do better, because their whole kit is designed around that? Not just one single ability that warrior has which is used on a whim and the good warriors don't even use for CC because the damage is far more important.

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How are you taking so much damage as a warrior????? Free back attack? Are you standing still? Free damage on grave digger? Like 100% of the time you're going to have your frontal block skills off cool down?  Like all classes have frontal block skills like a maewha? Most of the classes who trade with warriors grave digger will be trading with another super armour ability  e.g getting the heavy debuffs on them. 

Where are you even coming up with most of this stuff? You act like repositioning on warrior is a difficult task. Like it has the worse mobility in the game. Which is probably held by witches/wizards. They're the ones that should be complaining about being attacked in the back not a warrior haha.

Also you assume that everyone can continuously attack like a sorceress to tag you at the end of your dash. How are tamers, maewha, musa, witches and wizards suppose to hit you in that time frame? 

Btw not once did I say warrior was impossible to kill. Just time consuming which is good. But  the bad warriors should get punished further for playing badly. If you make a mistake you should get heavily punished for it. Not rewarded. And to be fair most warriors just sit there and turtle taking free hits. I'm sorry the quality of warriors back in march last year to march this year is just hilarious. 

As for comparing grave digger to other classes ULTIMATE black spirit rage abilities. I dunno. I don't even understand the comparison. I mean one requires black spirit rage whilst the other has a 10 second cooldown was it? I forget. Oh and super armour, debuffs and high damage and CC that has two tap effect. 

Musa ultimate, sorc ultimate, giant ultimate... you know what they have in common? They only CC the enemy and in giants case also heal him. You know what you can also do? Easily block them, escape them and also CC said enemy because they either have frontal block or nothing at all cancelling the ultimate cast time if you're fast enough. 

Now onto the main point. Why the ----- is a warrior jumping in a group of enemies? Oh that's right because it's easy and he won't get punished for it. 

Which is the whole point of this super armour argument. Why are you taking the role that is made for giant and valkyrie's which do what you do better, because their whole kit is designed around that? Not just one single ability that warrior has which is used on a whim and the good warriors don't even use for CC because the damage is far more important.

if your fighting someone who knows what their doing re positioning is almost impossible because warrior has the shortest dash by a long shot, + you risk getting knocked down from the end of your dash which doesn't have super armor /taking debuffs because hes just as venerable to them, even while swap dashing your extremely venerable, quick tip you don't trade with gravedigger you avoid, it pretty simple right? witch and wizard should be scared about being back attacked by a warrior? what? did i hear you correctly? double teleport which is uncounterable, and on a super low cd? please try harder to justify something thats completely wrong. zerkers can do it, musa/counterpart can do it, tamers  don't need to they can kite around until heilang stuns you with his pool, which might i add is avoidable, witches and wizards are the best at it 90% of their skills have cc abilities to them and frontal blocks and if you add debuff skill addons its even more cancerous. and to your third point about ultimate's  gravedigger isn't a 100% chance to do any cc those ultimate's have that ability, sorc ball acts like a vacuum and sucks in super armor zerker ult impossible to super armor with a dash because of the gaps in the dashes super armor, oh and guess what ofc you can block them, so can 90% of the current roster base, and on the point you said he wouldn't get punished for it, are you kidding me? there are a million possibilities that can happen in 4 secs that 5 different classes can throw out to counter that 1 ability"assuming its five people"

the last point you made is easy Valkyrie has almost 0 super armor and zerkers super armor is easy to counter esp lave piecer into grab. it seems to me like you have almost no experience fighting, or your just bad at countering plays made by idiots. or you just haven't played these classes or against them long enough to figure out how to counter them, my suggestion spend the next month in rbf and 1v1 duels or start lvling other characters to figure out how they play, instead of lifeskilling before complaining about op skills or op classes that are easily counterable, but you'd rather try and herp a derp to win. i'm sorry but until you provide evidence that these abilities are op i just can't believe it i've already provided my side of the proof, wheres yours? 

Btw I apologize if i seem extremely harsh but i'm just tired of these blind arguments. 

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if your fighting someone who knows what their doing re positioning is almost impossible because warrior has the shortest dash by a long shot, + you risk getting knocked down from the end of your dash which doesn't have super armor /taking debuffs because hes just as venerable to them, even while swap dashing your extremely venerable, quick tip you don't trade with gravedigger you avoid, it pretty simple right? witch and wizard should be scared about being back attacked by a warrior? what? did i hear you correctly? double teleport which is uncounterable, and on a super low cd? please try harder to justify something thats completely wrong. zerkers can do it, musa/counterpart can do it, tamers  don't need to they can kite around until heilang stuns you with his pool, which might i add is avoidable, witches and wizards are the best at it 90% of their skills have cc abilities to them and frontal blocks and if you add debuff skill addons its even more cancerous. and to your third point about ultimate's  gravedigger isn't a 100% chance to do any cc those ultimate's have that ability, sorc ball acts like a vacuum and sucks in super armor zerker ult impossible to super armor with a dash because of the gaps in the dashes super armor, oh and guess what ofc you can block them, so can 90% of the current roster base, and on the point you said he wouldn't get punished for it, are you kidding me? there are a million possibilities that can happen in 4 secs that 5 different classes can throw out to counter that 1 ability"assuming its five people"

the last point you made is easy Valkyrie has almost 0 super armor and zerkers super armor is easy to counter esp lave piecer into grab. it seems to me like you have almost no experience fighting, or your just bad at countering plays made by idiots. or you just haven't played these classes or against them long enough to figure out how to counter them, my suggestion spend the next month in rbf and 1v1 duels or start lvling other characters to figure out how they play, instead of lifeskilling before complaining about op skills or op classes that are easily counterable, but you'd rather try and herp a derp to win. i'm sorry but until you provide evidence that these abilities are op i just can't believe it i've already provided my side of the proof, wheres yours? 

Btw I apologize if i seem extremely harsh but i'm just tired of these blind arguments. 

Bit personal but are you on EU? Or NA?

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Bit personal but are you on EU? Or NA?

NA sorry didn't mention it before

 

The meme server.

2016-06-26_789808123.JPG

Edited by PsychoticFlamez

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NA sorry didn't mention it before

 

The meme server.

2016-06-26_789808123.JPG

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhH0TV5yRj8

Where warriors play like this? And you're lecturing me about warrior ability and skill in pvp lol. Like you can't outplay heilang or wizard TP as a warrior either which just made me giggle.

You don't even understand what Valkyrie kit is used for assuming I'm talking about their super armour. 

And you think this whole argument is about warrior being op. When in instance it's all about kill time and ease of use. 

You made your statement clear on your subject on the issue. You frankly believe all aspects of warrior is perfectly balanced and every other class is vastly superior than you in every other way. 

Funny thing is you thing is you think everyone has a grapple and every class has a counter to grave digger and warrior block. You also assume players will 100% have certain skills ready to avoid your skills in all situations whilst playing the idea of your warrior class being weaker than everyone else.

All I see here is a inferiority complex with a mixture of EXTREMELY bad warrior. You should come on EU for a few days. 

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhH0TV5yRj8

Where warriors play like this? And you're lecturing me about warrior ability and skill in pvp lol. Like you can't outplay heilang or wizard TP as a warrior either which just made me giggle.

You don't even understand what Valkyrie kit is used for assuming I'm talking about their super armour. 

And you think this whole argument is about warrior being op. When in instance it's all about kill time and ease of use. 

You made your statement clear on your subject on the issue. You frankly believe all aspects of warrior is perfectly balanced and every other class is vastly superior than you in every other way. 

Funny thing is you thing is you think everyone has a grapple and every class has a counter to grave digger and warrior block. You also assume players will 100% have certain skills ready to avoid your skills in all situations whilst playing the idea of your warrior class being weaker than everyone else.

All I see here is a inferiority complex with a mixture of EXTREMELY bad warrior. You should come on EU for a few days. 

lets clear up a few things first of all, you stated that gravedigger was op and needed a nerf, secondly i provided evidence to the contrary and responded with play smarter, warrior is the single most balanced class in this game since it got greatsword first, EVERY class was balanced around him initially. the last thing your mistaken is that warrior played poorly isn't strong and infact its super weak but warrior in the right hands is devastating not because warrior is op but because the person using him is better in every way, so you saying even a noob can gravedigger insinuating that the class was easy and they should make it not so easy when its perfect the way it is. thirdly I would advise you look at that video i posted a bit ago because that was me, and I am a very decent player, and believe it or not a child could counter gravedigger, and thats if gravedigger was the only skill used, and that says alot. sorry but you've really backed yourself in a corner.

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lets clear up a few things first of all, you stated that gravedigger was op and needed a nerf, secondly i provided evidence to the contrary and responded with play smarter, warrior is the single most balanced class in this game since it got greatsword first, EVERY class was balanced around him initially. the last thing your mistaken is that warrior played poorly isn't strong and infact its super weak but warrior in the right hands is devastating not because warrior is op but because the person using him is better in every way, so you saying even a noob can gravedigger insinuating that the class was easy and they should make it not so easy when its perfect the way it is. thirdly I would advise you look at that video i posted a bit ago because that was me, and I am a very decent player, and believe it or not a child could counter gravedigger, and thats if gravedigger was the only skill used, and that says alot. sorry but you've really backed yourself in a corner.

Yeah and we laughed because your gameplay of warrior was hilariously bad. We being people in discord. 

Right let's do this. 

I stated the following about grave digger, "What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range."

I actually gave and agreed with grave digger still having counter play. You know your idea of "using your head". Though I mention "reliable" since you're not going to have frontal block abilities 100% of the time. Because there's a thing known as cooldowns. 

No the game isn't balanced around warrior that's beyond stupid. You don't balance around one class because each class plays differently. From your idea of balance, wizards that can break through warriors block and still one shot them, they were balanced around warrior. Sounds dumb doesn't it now right?

What about witch and wizard passive accuracy and accuracy multipliers? Balanced around warriors form of accuracy? God no. They're boasting 30% accuracy multipliers on multiple skills with higher ap scaling by far. 

This statement just ticked me off lol. "The last thing your mistaken is that warrior played poorly isn't strong and infact it's super weak" Just read that statement again. Read it? Good. You the pro warrior from NA. You think a class is weak if it's played badly? What? Every class played poorly isn't weak. If you ----- up you get punished. You the get deleted on the spot. That's what that video was showing. It was showing a warrior with probably the best kit in the game to avoid all CCs GETTING CC'ED. 

Warriors kit is designed to CC chain combo, solar flare > overwhelm > wreckless blow > kick > switch > grapple > grave digger > slashing of the dead. 

In this combo you can't escape, and there's no recovery. Notice how you don't start with grave digger because you still got the down attack % multiplier from overwhelm? Because it'll do more damage like this. 

What does removing super armour from grave digger do in this combo? Nothing. What does it do in your combo? It stops you from using it for no reason because it leaves you open. 

Btw warrior is easy. All classes are easy in this game. Once you got that combo down on warrior and becomes muscle memory you end up winning all your fights after that one CC. Hence why oneuproad wins overgeared players with 160-190-187

And finally, "thirdly I would advise you look at that video i posted a bit ago because that was me, and I am a very decent player, and believe it or not a child could counter gravedigger, and thats if gravedigger was the only skill used, and that says alot. sorry but you've really backed yourself in a corner."

And I quote myself, "What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range."

Notice how I mention safe counter play, ranged attacks? Notice how I said it was counterable? Notice how I was talking about ease of use and kill time for balancing? What is grave digger? An easy to use skill. What is warriors kill time? At geared 200 ap accuracy build roughly under 2 seconds which is how long the CC for grave digger lasts but slightly longer since the debuffs lock you in place for slashing of the dead to hit. 

The only one backed in the corner now is yourself. Assuming I never played warrior in the first place or any other class. Takes a couple of seconds to see my profile and how long I've been part of the community. That's excluding the time I played in KR too. 

But yeah let's share 1 hour of gameplay vs a bad sorc whilst the recorder also plays warrior terribly. I wonder how hard you'd rage if you fought me. You'd probably be shouting nerf sorceress because they kill me in one violation haha or that I'm overgeared. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqtY7UpbZs&ebc=ANyPxKohNOfRjK8T-XllZ6GKbl7Eey0S5dbpd2WmuVQ2HC0VeghQvRdaDRxojuMVy_wC4vGrw9G5eb5mEUdkv2xwmqEpYPBXcw

Moaning at you aside, this nerf only effects bad warriors. If your so good why are you so defensive? No good warrior bothers to open with grave digger anyways. And removing the super armour from it effects the bad warriors who randomly spam it hoping they'll CC the enemy.

Edited by Berlioz

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Yeah and we laughed because your gameplay of warrior was hilariously bad. We being people in discord. 

Right let's do this. 

I stated the following about grave digger, "What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range."

I actually gave and agreed with grave digger still having counter play. You know your idea of "using your head". Though I mention "reliable" since you're not going to have frontal block abilities 100% of the time. Because there's a thing known as cooldowns. 

No the game isn't balanced around warrior that's beyond stupid. You don't balance around one class because each class plays differently. From your idea of balance, wizards that can break through warriors block and still one shot them, they were balanced around warrior. Sounds dumb doesn't it now right?

What about witch and wizard passive accuracy and accuracy multipliers? Balanced around warriors form of accuracy? God no. They're boasting 30% accuracy multipliers on multiple skills with higher ap scaling by far. 

This statement just ticked me off lol. "The last thing your mistaken is that warrior played poorly isn't strong and infact it's super weak" Just read that statement again. Read it? Good. You the pro warrior from NA. You think a class is weak if it's played badly? What? Every class played poorly isn't weak. If you ----- up you get punished. You the get deleted on the spot. That's what that video was showing. It was showing a warrior with probably the best kit in the game to avoid all CCs GETTING CC'ED. 

Warriors kit is designed to CC chain combo, solar flare > overwhelm > wreckless blow > kick > switch > grapple > grave digger > slashing of the dead. 

In this combo you can't escape, and there's no recovery. Notice how you don't start with grave digger because you still got the down attack % multiplier from overwhelm? Because it'll do more damage like this. 

What does removing super armour from grave digger do in this combo? Nothing. What does it do in your combo? It stops you from using it for no reason because it leaves you open. 

Btw warrior is easy. All classes are easy in this game. Once you got that combo down on warrior and becomes muscle memory you end up winning all your fights after that one CC. Hence why oneuproad wins overgeared players with 160-190-187

And finally, "thirdly I would advise you look at that video i posted a bit ago because that was me, and I am a very decent player, and believe it or not a child could counter gravedigger, and thats if gravedigger was the only skill used, and that says alot. sorry but you've really backed yourself in a corner."

And I quote myself, "What isn't balanced is stuff like warrior block or randomly spamming grave digger to hope you tag the enemy to inflict knockdown and heavy CC debuffs. There's no safe counter play to those attacks except range."

Notice how I mention safe counter play, ranged attacks? Notice how I said it was counterable? Notice how I was talking about ease of use and kill time for balancing? What is grave digger? An easy to use skill. What is warriors kill time? At geared 200 ap accuracy build roughly under 2 seconds which is how long the CC for grave digger lasts but slightly longer since the debuffs lock you in place for slashing of the dead to hit. 

The only one backed in the corner now is yourself. Assuming I never played warrior in the first place or any other class. Takes a couple of seconds to see my profile and how long I've been part of the community. That's excluding the time I played in KR too. 

But yeah let's share 1 hour of gameplay vs a bad sorc whilst the recorder also plays warrior terribly. I wonder how hard you'd rage if you fought me. You'd probably be shouting nerf sorceress because they kill me in one violation haha or that I'm overgeared. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqtY7UpbZs&ebc=ANyPxKohNOfRjK8T-XllZ6GKbl7Eey0S5dbpd2WmuVQ2HC0VeghQvRdaDRxojuMVy_wC4vGrw9G5eb5mEUdkv2xwmqEpYPBXcw

Moaning at you aside, this nerf only effects bad warriors. If your so good why are you so defensive? No good warrior bothers to open with grave digger anyways. And removing the super armour from it effects the bad warriors who randomly spam it hoping they'll CC the enemy.

you know whats funny about this, your entire argument here is based on theories and speculation/ what if this, what if that. I don't fight sorcs much, I focus mostly on 1v1's against bersekers rangers and wizards because by far they are played the most. In that video, that was the third fight against 3 different people I've had, because its so rare to find sorcs. The reason I chose a sorc to record is because the classes are so evenly balanced its laughable, so i figured you if anyone would understand that the class is balanced and super armor doesn't make it overly op in any way, which this thread is focused on. secondly I never assumed anything, except that you were a horrible player with no idea how game balance works. dp on warrior is broken, just gunna say that right now, you can play well with almost no dp if you have a block thats enough to soak up 1 or 2 shots and you do it correctly, aswell as if the fight doesn't drag on too long. and about your bad gameplay statement, thats pretty funny honestly I got the opposite reaction in my discord, but ty for the oppinion. honestly there are a ton of classes that would be affected by this nerf "nerf as in completely removed", musa/maehwa zerkers and warriors. but i'm talking from my most experience pov which is warrior.

 

 

2016-06-26_789808123.JPG

Edited by PsychoticFlamez

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