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Karma system revamp? (civil discussion please)

48 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

@Zann

I am never going to argue against the fact that there are some pretty twisted minds out there.

All I am pointing out is that game mechanics should not be the first option. Besides "Open World sandbox" portrayals a game where player rules govern the game and not game mechanics.

When a player rules fails to achieve a purpose it is also up to the players to come with alternatives.

 

But instead of trying to coexist with other player you are hiding behind the fact that PvP is a game component, and you want to "Punish" People for trying to play the game .... congratulations.

 

If I had to follow the thought process of most of you grieving on Karma-bombers, then the ideal game mechanic would be:

Kill the guy once, take all of his items and inventory

he comes Back ? > Kill him twice, gets him disconnected from BDO server and IP banned for 30 days  !

 

Think I just found the perfect solution !

 

Edited by Yuria_Tan
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Posted

Personaly the big problem is the enchantments loss... Loose a crystal is a risk but it's acceptable but loose a lv of enchantments it's really hard for ppl like me who are to poor for re-enchanting all days if they want to be permared :/

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Posted

The only change the system needs is they should change it to -250k karma per kill.

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Posted

The only change the system needs is they should change it to -250k karma per kill.

People that reach negative 1 million karma should have the option to perma ban 1 person of their choice. My choice would be you.

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Posted

My suggestion would be this: 

1st kill - Karma loss as normal. No extra penalties for the killed player.

2nd kill - No karma loss for attacker. XP penalty for the victim.

3rd kill and up - No karma loss for the attacker. XP penalty for the victim. Karma loss for the victim.

So basically ...

NO penalties for the pk, ALL the penalties for the other. Really, the current "cost" for a pk is 60k karma, you can grind that back within 15-20 min, losing 60k karma is nothing. You even want the other guy to lose karma for losing fights? What you're suggesting here is NOT a fairer pvp/karma system, but just to completely shift which of the 2 sides are able to grief (and how hard).

 

I think you misunderstand karma as how a players behaviour is reflected within the games community (which it is in many rpg's, but in those games you usually cant do much to change your karma once you've decided a certain path), when its in fact just a simple measurement to tell if and how well you follow the basic "laws" of the game's world (no killing & stealing), which you can even easily regain without actually having to "pay" for your crimes.

People that reach negative 1 million karma should have the option to perma ban 1 person of their choice. My choice would be you.

that would be an awesome system, with just 1 little change:

you could only choose another player who has also -karma. man this whole topic would be over so quick.

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Posted

But my suggestions only really impact people who continually go back to die again to the same guy - If you don't keep throwing yourself at him, or trying to take over his grind spot, he's not going to keep killing you.

You should not be able to freely and without penalty spend hours disrupting someone who just wants to grind, if they can kill you. At the least, they shouldn't be penalised if you keep on going back to harass them. 

So add a geographical element to my system - Have it only apply when you keep dying in the same area. That way, you can kill to push someone off a spot, without eating a massive penalty for doing so.

At the very least, diminishing returns on killing the same person should apply. You shouldn't lose the full karma cost every time someone opts to rush back in and annoy you.

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Posted (edited)

Heres a idea, create a pve server, it only took blizzard a amazing 1 expasion's" the first one" to figure this out. 

Another way you could do it would be silk road online's system. Offer 2 ways of optional pvp, you would buy a item which had serveral colors and you would equip it to enable pvp at all times, anyone else using your own color would be flagged as friendly. The secound system was having a  job system , traders, hunters, and thiefs. Traders would take items from one location and move it to another for profit, hunters hunted thiefs and guarded traders, and thiefs attacked trader's for their items and sold it on the black market. Their was also a third feature in where you were flagged as being a massive douche bag and players could farm you and lose your levels"It would only get this bad if you were constantly killing people", which should be the fate of anyone who ganks.

 

Truth be told the job system would work perfectly with this game.

Edited by Hollenhund

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Posted

This karma system is such crap I am having to avoid wpvp, the one thing I came back to bdo for. This is ridiculous when you're getting outfarmed by a less geared witch and when you kill them then get karma bombed everyone tells you you're an idiot for not handing the spot over to the scrub. Hate this system so. -----ing. much. 

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Posted

You should not be able to freely and without penalty spend hours disrupting someone who just wants to grind, if they can kill you. At the least, they shouldn't be penalised if you keep on going back to harass them.

but that is EXACTLY what would be possible with a change to the karmasystem in such a direction...

and i agree that this shouldn't be possible EVER, even though you say its ok "if they can kill you". But anyway, players will always find ways to abuse and exploit any system and grief the shit out of others.

With a change to the karmasystem in that direction, heavy griefing wont be possible anymore for the undergeared players, while top-geared, higher levels with op classes would be able to grief much easier and with even less penalties. The current system atleast can be exploited/abused to grief by both sides (you can karmagrief as well if you're geared better than him and could kill him easily... ).

 

This karma system is such crap I am having to avoid wpvp, the one thing I came back to bdo for. This is ridiculous when you're getting outfarmed by a less geared witch and when you kill them then get karma bombed everyone tells you you're an idiot for not handing the spot over to the scrub. Hate this system so. -----ing. much. 

if hes outfarming you, why exactly would you deserve the spot over him first of all?

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Posted

but that is EXACTLY what would be possible with a change to the karmasystem in such a direction...

and i agree that this shouldn't be possible EVER, even though you say its ok "if they can kill you". But anyway, players will always find ways to abuse and exploit any system and grief the shit out of others.

With a change to the karmasystem in that direction, heavy griefing wont be possible anymore for the undergeared players, while top-geared, higher levels with op classes would be able to grief much easier and with even less penalties. The current system atleast can be exploited/abused to grief by both sides (you can karmagrief as well if you're geared better than him and could kill him easily... ).

 

if hes outfarming you, why exactly would you deserve the spot over him first of all?

Because getting out farmed by someone with worse gear than you is absurd. Witch's just double port non stop and their constant ranged aoe BS is insane. Melee doesn't stand a chance when Witch AP is stronger than any other class stacked with mobility out the ass. 

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Posted

Because getting out farmed by someone with worse gear than you is absurd. Witch's just double port non stop and their constant ranged aoe BS is insane. Melee doesn't stand a chance when Witch AP is stronger than any other class stacked with mobility out the ass. 

classes are different, have different capabilities in pve, aoe, as well as pvp and 1v1's. It would be absurd and boring if they all were the same, while no doubt they aren't balanced well it would also be terrible and absurd if the class balance tiers would have always stayed the same since release. But that's a balancing/class issue and nothing with gear, karmasystem or grindspots.

On a sidenote, musa is melee and is still in the top-tier for grinding along with witch/wizard. And sorcs, zerkers, wars, tamers are all melee as well, but are among the top-tier in 1v1 situations and are able to beat witches/wizards and have better mobility as well, so its not a ranged vs melee issue either.

 

But anyway i may ask again: why do you think would you deserve that spot over that guy who outfarms you? Thats where we, and alot of other people have different opinions.

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Posted

- Only 1 nemesis can be marked at one time

1) Ask for guild member / friend / random person to help grief
2) Get that person get killed three times
3) Continue griefing

The solution to the whole issue lies in more high level spots. Possibly more perks for group grinding aswell (Skill Points).

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Posted (edited)

That is why i added a point where the system only allow nemesis between 1 lvl of you (so a 56 could only get nemesis from a 55, 56 or 57) that way it would still encourage player to fight mostly for grind spot appropriate to their level.

that doesnt work though as lvl 59s and 60s are still farming Sausans where many 54-56 players are. 

 

What they need to do is make more of these mobs viable. Weve got so many other mobs in this game that people rarely grind because Pirates and Sausans which are 53-56/7 zones are still the best at 59/60. give loot and exp buffs to Valencia.

I personally also think that a rework of exp from mobs needs to happen. People who are lvl 59 should be grinding level 59 mobs because its the wisest place for them to be. I cant blame level 58-60s for grinding sausans and pirates when its so much more beneficial than level appropriate mobs.

Edited by ApochSaint
rephrasing

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Posted

So after painfully grinding my way to lvl 60, and starting to work toward lvl 61,

No, you get no special right when you no-lifed your way to lv60 and are now outpowering the noobs, to "claim" those spots without penalty.

Why is everyone in BDO becoming basically a whiney girl complaining about noobs, once he gets some levels and AP?

Seems it wasn't a problem before, when you were a noob yourself?

Grow some balls and go negative, problem solved. Otherwise stop whining.

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Posted

No, you get no special right when you no-lifed your way to lv60 and are now outpowering the noobs, to "claim" those spots without penalty.

Why is everyone in BDO becoming basically a whiney girl complaining about noobs, once he gets some levels and AP?

Seems it wasn't a problem before, when you were a noob yourself?

Grow some balls and go negative, problem solved. Otherwise stop whining.

Late reply but i was trying to find a balanced solution. I do not understand why you start throwing insult. I found that all kind of players karma bomb, ive been karmabombed by lvl 61..(i wish i was kidding). You also seem to think that people only karma bomb when defending a spot which is in my experience quite rare. Most karmabomber i see are people who decide to karma bomb someone out of a spot to claim it. 

I also never claimed karma bomb wasnt a problem when i was "a noob" but back then we had xp penalty on pvp kill, which is NOT what i am asking for as i know how punishing this was and it allowed griefing on another scale entirely.

Basically all i want is for karma bombing to not be a viable tactic when in a similar level backet...If i had to "grow some balls and go negative" to defend a spot, you should have to "grow some balls" as well and flag up to challenge it.

 

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Posted

 I do not understand why you start throwing insult.

It's no insult, it's the only language that the "pro pvp" kids understand. They want to look tough, talk about "carebears" and "filthy lifeskillers", but act like little girls.

It's beyond ridiculous how you can call a weaker player "griefing", when you just can kill him, steal his mobs, do whatever he can, but much better.

Again, you CANT karma bomb. Let's do a bet over 1 billion, you try to karma bomb me. If you manage that I get negative karma, you win, otherwise I win.

 

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Posted

It's no insult, it's the only language that the "pro pvp" kids understand. They want to look tough, talk about "carebears" and "filthy lifeskillers", but act like little girls.

It's beyond ridiculous how you can call a weaker player "griefing", when you just can kill him, steal his mobs, do whatever he can, but much better.

Again, you CANT karma bomb. Let's do a bet over 1 billion, you try to karma bomb me. If you manage that I get negative karma, you win, otherwise I win.

It is insults and very disrespectful. i haven't resulted to using insult and don't see why you should.

Basically your stance is that a weaker player, or any other players who decides to farm on top of you should have more right to a grind spot unless you are willing to do what they won't: flag up and go negative? You are viewing thing from a single angle and refuse to try to see it from both sides.

As i mentioned in my original post, Many classes have different grind speed and different gear requirement to farm zones. My 210AP warrior can easily be out-farmed by a 180 AP wizard at Pila Ku, which is a high level grind spot. should that mean i should leave anytime a wizard decide to take my spot without fighting?

You might have enough spare time to accept sacrificing half of your XP gain from grinding and not flag up when someone decide they want your spot..but most don't.

Lastly, you again talk as if people who karma bomb are all low level new players...in my experience it is rarely the case, a low lvl player (56 or less with 150 or less ap) won't  be able to out farm anyone with high gear so that is not really a problem. I imagine you either play a class with very high clear speed or was lucky enough to not have any highly geared players decide to grind on top of you.

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Posted

Basically your stance is that a weaker player, or any other players who decides to farm on top of you should have more right to a grind spot unless you are willing to do what they won't: flag up and go negative? You are viewing thing from a single angle and refuse to try to see it from both sides.

No. My viewpoint is, the system is fine as it is. Either you share a spot, then nobody has a problem. Or you decide to claim one of the 30 spots (for 100000s of players) all for yourself, giving you a HUGE advantage, but not without cost. You will lose some karma. Which doesn't matter, when you are grinding anyway.

The TRUE reason why people are upset is they are scared to go negative karma, because they fear an equally strong, or stronger player will then come and bash them. They want only to bash newbies and drive them away from the spots, without any penalties at all.

I see it always from both sides. I have no problems with griefing, and I don't grief. I just know that it won't work when 30 top players would be able to claim ALL the spots of one kind, without having any drawback at all.

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Posted

No. My viewpoint is, the system is fine as it is. Either you share a spot, then nobody has a problem. Or you decide to claim one of the 30 spots (for 100000s of players) all for yourself, giving you a HUGE advantage, but not without cost. You will lose some karma. Which doesn't matter, when you are grinding anyway.

The TRUE reason why people are upset is they are scared to go negative karma, because they fear an equally strong, or stronger player will then come and bash them. They want only to bash newbies and drive them away from the spots, without any penalties at all.

I see it always from both sides. I have no problems with griefing, and I don't grief. I just know that it won't work when 30 top players would be able to claim ALL the spots of one kind, without having any drawback at all.

Highlighted it. Like it, love it. Keep the current system.  Just add housing and a marketplace in Outlaw town. I wouldn't be sad if people dropped fish/ trade packs again either.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

then i guess we will agree to disagree strongly on this :P And yes, people are scared to go negative, because you lose way too much. you can risk months of progress when going negative...It's that the current system put all the blame on someone willing to fight for a spot, no matter what the situation is...

And again, karma bombers are not all newbies..can we stop pushing that lie. Almost every people i see karma bombing are actually geared and often 59+

Edited by Regdar

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Posted

A better idea would be introducing pvp zones with no karma loss at all, and good loot. No quest stuff there or anything like that.

So people could choose whether to choose the better spot and need to fight for it, or the "protected" normal zones. Nobody could complain.

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Posted

then i guess we will agree to disagree strongly on this :P And yes, people are scared to go negative, because you lose way too much. you can risk months of progress when going negative...It's that the current system put all the blame on someone willing to fight for a spot, no matter what the situation is...

And again, karma bombers are not all newbies..can we stop pushing that lie. Almost every people i see karma bombing are actually geared and often 59+

You know Karma bombing is a pretty inaccurate term, it's more like karma suicider. The one choosing to flag is the one who's losing Karma, so all he/she is doing is just killing their own Karma by their own volition. 

When someone comes to the place you were grinding at and kills mobs he's merely practicing very important mechanic in this game which is grinding. We all need to grind to get levels and money. If you decide to kill the poor man/woman who's just grinding then you can flag and keep killing them. If you cry that he's a karma bomber after he kills you or brings someone to kill you then your just lying to yourself because u killed your own Karma. 

Ofc people are blaming you if you went red and lose enchants/crystals because you decided to go red yourself when you could've just had your merry way grinding. 

If you decide to press that alt+c you have to face the consequences. This is an Open World video game with Open World PvP. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the current Karma System as is. If you decide to kill someone there are very real consequences as there should be.

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Posted

Los of things can be done to even out the scales

But it's all moot point unless Valencia is significantly buffed. If any change is made to the karma system without that, we won't be evening things, but tipping the scales over to the higher levelled and geared. Abs no way do they want that when level 54 to 56 areas are packed with 58-62s.

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