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BDO Datamined DP stats - Just show us AP, DP, Evasion and ACC on char sheet

202 posts in this topic

Posted

i like it. so i will defend it, right? i dont want every pleb to have the same exact item build. it's good that people try to find out new build or what ever. if there was just ONE solution and one formula that tells us we need exactly amount of X of any stats.. people would all build the exact same sht. all other armors, weapons would be useless.

why dont u just play any other game of this game's system is so terrible?

 

if the game does it right you have multiple gear builds for different situations and you choose your gear based on your prefered playstyle. People even do this right now in BDO, the only difference is that they have to "guess" whats best in which situation because of missing or even misleading stats. Would you have thought that kutum hits harder vs many mobs (maybe all, but not enough tests) than nouver for example?

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Posted

TBH CM_A post is exactly what I would expect their  KR parents to do. So there is nothing to be surprised about.  They like to hide info, and plan to keep doing it.  Heck they may even swap some values in the db next week to mess with us all.

I agree, i wish we had visibility. But won't happen.

I definitely missed this CM post and everything that went down with it, but I don't think anger is warranted here.  It's true that they do tweak things without thinking every little change needs to go in the patch notes.  Something has changed every patch.  They're also never specific about HOW MUCH something has changed (ex: AP for X Skill has been decreased/increased without giving an exact value).  It is true, and has always been true, that values change.  I personally know, and am constantly frustrated by, outdated information that I find from Feb/March 2016 because no one bothers to keep up-to-date charts on anything within the community and seem to only rely on information from the beta.  You can't rely on information from over a month ago, or even from two weeks ago.  You have to check what has changed, update the charts, and most importantly run your own tests and stop parroting outdated info.  You are never correct when you repeat things other people have told you in this game.

If there's anything I've learned while playing this, it's that you need to figure things out for yourself.  That's a feature of this game.  Learn that, and stop beating your fists against the wall whenever you realize you can't just do a calculation once and never touch it again.

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Posted

If you are in competitive racing

Actually I am, not so much lately, but been regular doing iRacing races.

In all real competitive games, there is NO room at all for RNG. It defeats the whole purpose of "competition". That's why there is no real competition in BDO, is just who has more luck and/or who plays more. That's also why those stats are completely irrelevant.

I know, MMO people are a bit strange when it comes to that. They want to keep up their illusion "having skill" when they outgeared some noobs, or "out-lucked", and feel strong, and be "on top of competition". I pity them a bit.

The word you are looking for is "lottery", not "competition".

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Posted

if the game does it right you have multiple gear builds for different situations and you choose your gear based on your prefered playstyle. People even do this right now in BDO, the only difference is that they have to "guess" whats best in which situation because of missing or even misleading stats. Would you have thought that kutum hits harder vs many mobs (maybe all, but not enough tests) than nouver for example?

dude.. u argue as if all these plebs here in this forum are statistical genius.

if they opened those information.. 99% of those guys who are crying for "GIMME THE STATS" would be like.. "k, i have 25 accuracy. nice.O.o"

and for this 1% of blaming people who would do the actual research and testings to find out how stats work together.. it's not worth to change the whole game design for them.

 

in fact.. i play this game since ~1 year. and those whining kids in the forum will always find any braindead thing to complain about.

"mimi.. in game [xy] it has always been like this!! game [xy] is fck boring but make bdo exactly the same like this pls!"

...

i can just repeat myself again and again:

guys, if u dont like THIS game design.. pls leave. go play anything else.

a game is not supposed to change for some complaining plebs.

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Posted

So what? People want to optimise their toon's stats. What is wrong with that? It is important for competative people to know what they are doing.

It is (nearly) impossible to get perfect stats anyway, due to the massive RNG-wall in this game.
Other MMORPGs have no hidden stats and no massive progression wall. Does that destroy the game? No!

Not everyone will have the exact same build, due to top notch gear not being available to everyone.
And so what if 5% of the population (at best) has the same gear.
OMG, IT WILL DESTROY THE GAME!

Funny to call competative people plebs, when they are the only ones that have a valid reason to want to know their stats.
While the only thing you can say is: "This will make players more unique. Blah blah blah".
You sound like a life-skiller to me. Someone who does not care about stats and has nothing useful to add to a topic like this.
If you want to be unique, buy a shark suit, dye it green and run around Heidel being a special snowflake.
As soon as you see someone else in a green shark suit, uninstall the game.

And you sound like a typical PVPer who knows nothing about the rest of the game.  In my experience, "competitive people" are the ones who never do their own calculations or tests and just want to leech off the info found by other players.  And life skills require just as much gear and stat maximization as combat, so yes, we do understand the frustration of hidden stats.  However, we actually do our own calculations and tests to figure out how to maximize our returns.  We even do calculations on how to optimize our fail stacking, and no, it's not the same as what all the public charts say.  And if 95% of the game's population doesn't want to make those calculations for themselves, and just wants to insult us, then why should we share any of that data with you?  I say hidden stats are good because people who are actually willing to put in the effort to make their own tests and calculations get the reward, not the people who demand to be babied and have everything done for them.

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Posted

 

you sound like a typical PVPer 

y u gotta turn this into a lifeskillers vs pvpers thing

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Posted

If there's anything I've learned while playing this, it's that you need to figure things out for yourself.  That's a feature of this game.  Learn that, and stop beating your fists against the wall whenever you realize you can't just do a calculation once and never touch it again.

That's all well and good, except if we did that every patch we would never do anything else, and we wouldn't even accomplish the goal of getting everything tested for every patch anyway, because there's just far too much to test.

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Posted

You don't even need to do detailed tests. All it needs are players that have more than 1 type of equipment, and play a lot. Ask them if they notice a difference. If not, it's irrelevant.

And it's not like there would be thousands of equipment types in BDO. One choice of armor, main weapon and awakening. The few accessories and offhands are the only thing that you could actually swap in your build.

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Posted

You don't even need to do detailed tests. All it needs are players that have more than 1 type of equipment, and play a lot. Ask them if they notice a difference. If not, it's irrelevant.

And it's not like there would be thousands of equipment types in BDO. One choice of armor, main weapon and awakening. The few accessories and offhands are the only thing that you could actually swap in your build.

And that's why you need detailed tests.

Lets use the Centaurs belt as an example cause its one of the items affected by this datamining - every single patch you'd have to test if it still gives you evasion or if they changed it into full dr, or even some combination of both. And that's 1 item.

You would actually need to do it for each piece of armor, each offhand, each accessory, every single patch. Just to make sure your gear still does what you intend it to do.

It's unrealistic.

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Posted

First of all, Thought Jouska was dead good to know so I can start tagging him in posts again. 

 

Second, I like the fact that its hidden. Honestly the game was much more dynamic before grunil you could swap set bonuses and do much more with your gear. with boss gear its nice to have at least accessories and offhands to experiment with. If someone beats you because they build differently than you get over it. But then again Im just a lifeskiller so Im not sure how much accuracy +5 cooking clothes give, 

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Posted

And that's why you need detailed tests.

Lets use the Centaurs belt as an example cause its one of the items affected by this datamining - every single patch you'd have to test if it still gives you evasion or if they changed it into full dr, or even some combination of both. And that's 1 item.

You would actually need to do it for each piece of armor, each offhand, each accessory, every single patch. Just to make sure your gear still does what you intend it to do.

It's unrealistic.

My point was rather, so many people playing, it should be obvious when something changed. If nobody notices, the differences are so minuscule that they are of no importance.

I have not much PvP practise, but in every game I played where I had some, I noticed major changes without problem, no patch nodes or tests needed. I'm not sure why the BDO pros still need to google translate korean forum posts instead of having own experience.

 

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Posted (edited)

In all real competitive games, there is NO room at all for RNG. It defeats the whole purpose of "competition". That's why there is no real competition in BDO, is just who has more luck and/or who plays more. That's also why those stats are completely irrelevant.

I know, MMO people are a bit strange when it comes to that. They want to keep up their illusion "having skill" when they outgeared some noobs, or "out-lucked", and feel strong, and be "on top of competition". I pity them a bit.

The word you are looking for is "lottery", not "competition".

Competitive, RNG, and balanced do not mean the same thing, and don't have to be with one or another to be their own. Most of the top competitive games in the world are RNG or unbalanced- Hearthstone, League of Legends, Magic The Gathering, etc... 'Real competitive' is an opinionated word. For me, and by definition, competitive just means there is a system for competing, which is PvP in Black Desert. I know NA is a bit dead with it's GvGs and PvP, but KR has a very lively GvG/PvP community and is very competitive. In Black Desert, you're competing for better gear- these stats are important for those who want to get the best gear and attributes.

 

Edited by Junyoung

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Posted

 

In all real competitive games, there is NO room at all for RNG. It defeats the whole purpose of "competition".

Name one.

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Posted

'Real competitive' is an opinionated word

yes, of course, you can have a "dice roll competition", no doubt.

but in common language, a competition is to compare your skills, and you can only compare things that are based on the same conditions.

Name one.

all popular shooters (UT, Quake, CS, ...), same equip, no levels. a good player can make new account and is immedately better than others, only skill counts

popular racing simulators (as already named one, iRacing)

chess

all sports games

etc... pretty much *everything*, heavy RNG in games is nothing common. I'm not talking exclusively about MMOs here.

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Posted

 

y u gotta turn this into a lifeskillers vs pvpers thing

The person I quoted already did.

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Posted (edited)

 

all sports games

 

Tell that to any football team that's ever played in the rain or snow. 

there's plenty of randomness you have to account for in sports. 

Edited by Dremlock

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Posted

yall who said kutum gave flat DP, ha nice joke. glad I don't listen to people

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Posted

My point was rather, so many people playing, it should be obvious when something changed. If nobody notices, the differences are so minuscule that they are of no importance.

I have not much PvP practise, but in every game I played where I had some, I noticed major changes without problem, no patch nodes or tests needed. I'm not sure why the BDO pros still need to google translate korean forum posts instead of having own experience.

 

So instead of everyone doing testing on individual items you want .. some thread where people go "I feel like I have less evasion this patch, Im wearing xyz", and then the next guy posting would go "I feel the same, Im wearing xyz too" and.. then what?

Who said anything about major changes anyway? The point is that your gear and everything you thought it was can change at the bat of an eye and without you knowing it.

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Posted

And that's why you need detailed tests.

Lets use the Centaurs belt as an example cause its one of the items affected by this datamining - every single patch you'd have to test if it still gives you evasion or if they changed it into full dr, or even some combination of both. And that's 1 item.

You would actually need to do it for each piece of armor, each offhand, each accessory, every single patch. Just to make sure your gear still does what you intend it to do.

It's unrealistic.

I agree, I find that testing evasion is a lot harder to test than accuracy because you don't actually know how it's calculated and how much evasion will affect hit rates, can only theorize how it functions from looking at the data. Though, with a decent data set, you can see the difference by comparing previous tests with the current ones. But it is a big hassle to do it. Every. Single. Maintenance.

Right now, gear diversity isn't too big. There's not many builds combination, and there's already items that are considered better than others, and most that are similar are mainly for preference, like with RCE vs Whale Molars (Accuracy vs HP gain) or armor combination (Heve+Grunil for HP/AP or Heve+Rocaba for HP/Evasion for example). Different classes will have different builds with combination of gears, so there won't be a meta set (other than boss) that will outperform every single set combination out there.

The point of this is that DP shouldn't be ambiguous, showing DR and Eva doesn't hurt the game but rather helps it and the players. Once Kamasylvia comes out, we are going to get more gears added to the list and that means even more testing needed to do for comparison.

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Posted

all popular shooters (UT, Quake, CS, ...), same equip, no levels. a good player can make new account and is immedately better than others, only skill counts

popular racing simulators (as already named one, iRacing)

chess

all sports games

etc... pretty much *everything*, heavy RNG in games is nothing common. I'm not talking exclusively about MMOs here.

UT Quake and CS all involve quite a bit of RNG. UT and Quake being completely dead at this point , I'll just touch on CS.  Your shots are not completely accurate , shooting someone in the head can result on you missing despite aiming correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0rlCJ047Ds

70% chance to hit someone on a common distance. And if you ignore what is more specific for CS:GO then you have times where you are holding an angle for several seconds,turn around to check a different one and get shot from the one you just held because timing and "RNG".

Chess where it's RNG what side you get to play and the one that has white gets a nice 5% winrate increase just for playing white.

All sports games suffer from "RNG" in that the weather can change anything. Oh the wind blew too hard? Now you -----ing missed.

 

TLDR;You're full of shit.

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Posted (edited)

My point was rather, so many people playing, it should be obvious when something changed. If nobody notices, the differences are so minuscule that they are of no importance.

I have not much PvP practise, but in every game I played where I had some, I noticed major changes without problem, no patch nodes or tests needed. I'm not sure why the BDO pros still need to google translate korean forum posts instead of having own experience.

 

Bro. This is the game where people can have like 30% accuracy and be like "Nah I'm not missing, I'm still doing damage! Full AP!" Yeah, you're gonna notice fluctuations in average damage and average survivability, but as far as actually having any idea where they came from? No, in general people have no idea. Why on Earth do you think all the testing that's been done was necessary in the first place? Because people are intuitive enough to know the answer anyway? Yeah, no.

Take one of the extreme massive changes I mentioned; when they added mainhand AP scaling to awakenings, the general population noticed nothing. People, even top PvPers (I'm looking at you, OneUproad), were saying it was bullshit for forever. Hell, they still do. It took people like the KR testers on Inven and myself to actually figure out how it was working, and what that meant for builds, and now after that's done you know what happens when I tell people in-game about my findings on that? They tell me I'm a liar, and they notice 0 difference with a good mainhand compared to a shit one.

If you're looking for non-testers to figure out the game, you're going to be utterly disappointed.

Edited by Zephan
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Posted

I agree, I find that testing evasion is a lot harder to test than accuracy because you don't actually know how it's calculated and how much evasion will affect hit rates, can only theorize how it functions from looking at the data. Though, with a decent data set, you can see the difference by comparing previous tests with the current ones. But it is a big hassle to do it. Every. Single. Maintenance.

Right now, gear diversity isn't too big. There's not many builds combination, and there's already items that are considered better than others, and most that are similar are mainly for preference, like with RCE vs Whale Molars (Accuracy vs HP gain) or armor combination (Heve+Grunil for HP/AP or Heve+Rocaba for HP/Evasion for example). Different classes will have different builds with combination of gears, so there won't be a meta set (other than boss) that will outperform every single set combination out there.

The point of this is that DP shouldn't be ambiguous, showing DR and Eva doesn't hurt the game but rather helps it and the players. Once Kamasylvia comes out, we are going to get more gears added to the list and that means even more testing needed to do for comparison.

Isn't Kamasylvia only going to bring gear that we wear specifically to kill Kamasylvian mobs?  PVE-only pretty much?

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Posted

So instead of everyone doing testing on individual items you want .. some thread where people go "I feel like I have less evasion this patch, Im wearing xyz", and then the next guy posting would go "I feel the same, Im wearing xyz too" and.. then what?

Who said anything about major changes anyway? The point is that your gear and everything you thought it was can change at the bat of an eye and without you knowing it.

I feel like this is exactly what is going on. Several patches me and my friends noticed desert fogans become considerably tankier and the next patch they felt like butter again. The fact that they could, and most likely, do the same with gear is a bit disturbing. To even come out and say "yea, this info may be outdated" is scary knowing that your gear choices are being slightly altered without us knowing. 

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Posted

UT Quake and CS all involve quite a bit of RNG

I almost knew this would come.

Comparing weather influence in sports games with rolling dice as a core mechanic... you're making yourself ridiculous haha.

Try competing in those things I mentioned and see how much your RNG will help you lol

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Posted

Just release the stats so people can make an informed choice both in terms of gear investment and cash shop investment.

But then you'd create accountability and destroy the illusion of gear choice by revealing to everyone how linear and utterly boring the gear upgrade path is.

We can't have that.

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