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Kriegsmesser Drops


60 posts in this topic

Posted

Krea is bad because you need to use Krea offhand to unlock the set effect, Krea offhand is bad because it's lower damage. Azwell already comes with +5 accuracy and in long grinding sessions you'll be fighting in the rain. Azwell is underrated in PvE. It's even better in PvP if you don't care about having ignore resist %, in that case you would go with Rosar. 

Think the most optimal thing to do is Azwell/Oros if you have Bhegs. Azwell/Saiyer if you don't have bhegs. Skip Liverto and wait for Kzarka if you don't have one already.

You literally lost me at "long grinding sessions you'll be fighting in the rain."

I'll let @Caddywhompus post above mine handle the explanation, they worded it perfectly fine.

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Posted

although I don't believe the 5 accuracy on Azwell pulls it ahead of Krea/Rosar, only brings it up to equal levels

Azwell has better accuracy than Krea. Not sure about Rosar, I like to see some data...

However, 5 accuracy isn't much and isn't worth sacrificing the AP and an additional crystal slot.

You're gaining 5 accuracy with Azwell over 1.5 AP, add in the +2 AP crystal slot and it becomes 3.5 AP. I don't consider the ignore resist on Rosar useful for PvE so it boils down 5 accuracy + rain effect vs 3.5 AP.

You literally lost me at "long grinding sessions you'll be fighting in the rain."

I'll let @Caddywhompus post above mine handle the explanation, they worded it perfectly fine.

2017-02-26_293991587.thumb.PNG.44ef38cc6

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Posted

Azwell has better accuracy than Krea. Not sure about Rosar, I like to see some data...

You're gaining 5 accuracy with Azwell over 1.5 AP, add in the +2 AP crystal slot and it becomes 3.5 AP. I don't consider the ignore resist on Rosar useful for PvE so it boils down 5 accuracy + rain effect vs 3.5 AP.

2017-02-26_293991587.thumb.PNG.44ef38cc6

I wasn't questioning whether or not the effect existed, I was pointing out that it is so utterly negligible that it is not something you ever factor in or consider. Just why?

As for the Krea vs Azwell accuracy...

That video is old and from the RU servers.
The Azwell + AP offhand was 19.5 hits over 32 seconds vs the Krea + AP offhand which was 21 hits over 34 seconds, 2 seconds difference and the Krea hit more and this was purely due to mana/stamina issues that they were running into. If anything they have pretty equal accuracy. The reason you take the Krea over the Azwell in that scenario is simple: 2 gem slots. What is this? Day 1 Mediah update on NA? Where have you been for the past 11 months?

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Posted

Rosar has 2 gem slot so rosar is good till liverto/kaza

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Posted

Why isn't anyone mentioning the +10 dmg vs. humans of the Seleth?  

It's my understanding that for PVP, other classes are categorized as human and therefore this sword would do +10 PVP dmg, as well as useful for grinding against human mobs (ie pirates, sausins, bandits etc.).

Enhancement effects include increased AP, Accuracy, and dmg against humans.

Ultimate Effect: +1 attack speed, and +1 critical

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Posted

Krea is bad because you need to use Krea offhand to unlock the set effect, Krea offhand is bad because it's lower damage. Azwell already comes with +5 accuracy and in long grinding sessions you'll be fighting in the rain. Azwell is underrated in PvE. It's even better in PvP if you don't care about having ignore resist %, in that case you would go with Rosar. 

Think the most optimal thing to do is Azwell/Oros if you have Bhegs. Azwell/Saiyer if you don't have bhegs. Skip Liverto and wait for Kzarka if you don't have one already.

you dont have to value the set effect. People using krea/rosar are getting these as their first cheap high enchant lvl weapons. The 2 slots and raw stats are more valuable in using the item on its own with a different off hand

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Posted

I wasn't questioning whether or not the effect existed, I was pointing out that it is so utterly negligible that it is not something you ever factor in or consider. Just why?

Because it's not negligible? It's useful when it's raining. It's certainly better than ignore resist which is a completely useless stat in PvE.

That video is old and from the RU servers.

This doesn't disprove the information, unless you can provide your own evidence. 

If anything they have pretty equal accuracy. 

The Azwell pulls ahead in dps though. 

The reason you take the Krea over the Azwell in that scenario is simple: 2 gem slots. 

It's only a one gem slot difference, at best new players are going to use a +2 ap gem with it which may or may not bring it in line with Azwell. Now factor in the price of Krea/Rosar with Azwell, it'll cost 2-3 times more for something that does less dps...

What is this? Day 1 Mediah update on NA? Where have you been for the past 11 months?

You're just following public opinion, you're not questioning the validity of the Rosar/Krea meme. 

Why isn't anyone mentioning the +10 dmg vs. humans of the Seleth?  

Because it probably has no accuracy. 

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Posted

Because it's not negligible? It's useful when it's raining. It's certainly better than ignore resist which is a completely useless stat in PvE.

This doesn't disprove the information, unless you can provide your own evidence. 

The Azwell pulls ahead in dps though. 

It's only a one gem slot difference, at best new players are going to use a +2 ap gem with it which may or may not bring it in line with Azwell. Now factor in the price of Krea/Rosar with Azwell, it'll cost 2-3 times more for something that does less dps...

You're just following public opinion, you're not questioning the validity of the Rosar/Krea meme. 

Because it probably has no accuracy. 

Azwell doesn't pull ahead in dps though, it only looks like that. What hindered them getting out more DPS was mana consumption and stamina consumption, its also such a tiny sample size that they are not getting accurate ranges accounting for RNG. The video shows 1 test per weapon (MH and OH) combination, that doesn't give very productive results. Every test done with accuracy has sample sizes ranging in the hundreds and up into the thousands of hits, not to mention that video was made with the intention of showing how crap Yuria is compared to other weapons that became available.

And yes, it is entirely negligible. Unless the rain decreases AP by like 20-30, which it doesn't, then it is doing absolutely nothing to clear speeds or our damage in general. Its not useful because its doing nothing because nothing is really happening to your AP when it rains. You don't notice it, ever. And I mean ever. Its such a nonissue that people forget that its even a mechanic in the game, thats how minuscule the reduction in AP is. Not to mention you don't take the Rosar for the ignore resist in PvE, you get it for the 2 gem slots, the more AP, the better accuracy and how cheap it is to upgrade. Do you even play with other people/a competent guild in this game?

Why isn't anyone mentioning the +10 dmg vs. humans of the Seleth?  

It's my understanding that for PVP, other classes are categorized as human and therefore this sword would do +10 PVP dmg, as well as useful for grinding against human mobs (ie pirates, sausins, bandits etc.).

Enhancement effects include increased AP, Accuracy, and dmg against humans.

Ultimate Effect: +1 attack speed, and +1 critical

Not every weapon has the same accuracy scaling as others, also Human damage does pretty much nothing on those kinds of weapons. It doesn't scale the same as raw AP, raw AP will always be better. The only place you should ever get human damage is from a Knight's Rations and Human Hunt elixir and that is only after you pop your Fury elixir. We put the whole human damage thing to rest a while ago.

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Posted

Azwell doesn't pull ahead in dps though, it only looks like that. What hindered them getting out more DPS was mana consumption and stamina consumption, its also such a tiny sample size that they are not getting accurate ranges accounting for RNG. The video shows 1 test per weapon (MH and OH) combination, that doesn't give very productive results. Every test done with accuracy has sample sizes ranging in the hundreds and up into the thousands of hits, not to mention that video was made with the intention of showing how crap Yuria is compared to other weapons that became available.

Provide me with better evidence then, is it really that hard? 

And yes, it is entirely negligible. 

It's not negligible when it rains, it's a better effect to have in PvE than Rosar's ignore res, that's the point.

Not to mention you don't take the Rosar for the ignore resist in PvE, you get it for the 2 gem slots

I'm talking about it's item effect, which is utterly useless in PvE, at least Azwell can be useful. And again, the extra gem slot only gets you +2 AP, unless a new player is willing to drop 20m on a crystal which isn't very price effective. According the best available evidence Azwell pulls ahead of Krea. 

Do you even play with other people/a competent guild in this game?

Can you stop making all of these wild assumptions? It doesn't make your arguments better. And you can't seriously recommend Rosar/Krea to new players when Azwell is 2-3 times cheaper and achieves the same thing. 

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Posted

Provide me with better evidence then, is it really that hard? 

It's not negligible when it rains, it's a better effect to have in PvE than Rosar's ignore res, that's the point.

I'm talking about it's item effect, which is utterly useless in PvE, at least Azwell can be useful. And again, the extra gem slot only gets you +2 AP, unless a new player is willing to drop 20m on a crystal which isn't very price effective. According the best available evidence Azwell pulls ahead of Krea. 

Can you stop making all of these wild assumptions? It doesn't make your arguments better. And you can't seriously recommend Rosar/Krea to new players when Azwell is 2-3 times cheaper and achieves the same thing. 

Well its a set effect for one, and second yes it raining is entirely negligible. No one notices, if they did then Azwell would actually matter and people would actually bother using it but they don't...because the AP reduction from the rain is 100% unnoticeable. Also just from grinding and getting the weapon upgraded and everything else they would easily get enough money to afford better crystals for the Rosar, it has more longevity than an Azwell and more usefulness. Your argument about the "rain decreasing AP" doesn't hold up because if that ever mattered then we'd actually see information on that outside of your little "i'm a rebel" thing you got going.

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Posted

Well its a set effect for one, and second yes it raining is entirely negligible. No one notices, if they did then Azwell would actually matter and people would actually bother using it but they don't...because the AP reduction from the rain is 100% unnoticeable. Also just from grinding and getting the weapon upgraded and everything else they would easily get enough money to afford better crystals for the Rosar, it has more longevity than an Azwell and more usefulness. Your argument about the "rain decreasing AP" doesn't hold up because if that ever mattered then we'd actually see information on that outside of your little "i'm a rebel" thing you got going.

I said it's more useful than Rosar's ignore resistance in PvE, it's not a deal breaker but it's certainly a benefit to have; I don't understand why you're trying to deny that. And you're still not providing any information contrary to Azwell outperforming Krea. If I had to take an educational guess I'd say Azwell has hidden offensive stats which explains why it pulls ahead of Krea. There's no testing comparing Azwell to Rosar/+5 AP crystal so you could only assume at this point. Much like how everyone on this forum speculates what is best and assumes their opinion is irrefutable facts. 

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Posted

I said it's more useful than Rosar's ignore resistance in PvE, it's not a deal breaker but it's certainly a benefit to have; I don't understand why you're trying to deny that. And you're still not providing any information contrary to Azwell outperforming Krea. If I had to take an educational guess I'd say Azwell has hidden offensive stats which explains why it pulls ahead of Krea. There's no testing comparing Azwell to Rosar/+5 AP crystal so you could only assume at this point. Much like how everyone on this forum speculates what is best and assumes their opinion is irrefutable facts. 

Well from the information available the Azwell and the Krea are about equal so I will level with you there, it didn't pull ahead it did 2 less (1 and a half) damage in 2 seconds less than the Krea. To me that says about equal. However the Azwell effect isn't a reason to take it over a Rosar or a Krea because the rain "debuff" does absolutely nothing to your grind efficiency.

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Posted

Well from the information available the Azwell and the Krea are about equal so I will level with you there, it didn't pull ahead it did 2 less (1 and a half) damage in 2 seconds less than the Krea. To me that says about equal. 

2-3 seconds isn't equal, those seconds add up over time.

However the Azwell effect isn't a reason to take it over a Rosar or a Krea because the rain "debuff" does absolutely nothing to your grind efficiency.

I never said it should be a reason, I said it's better than having ignore res in PvE. And if it happens to rain, then you're not being efficient.  

 

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Posted (edited)

2-3 seconds isn't equal, those seconds add up over time.

I never said it should be a reason, I said it's better than having ignore res in PvE. And if it happens to rain, then you're not being efficient.  

 

That 2 seconds based on the damage dealt within those seconds does make it equal because it simply means there was a lapse in mana/stamina consumption and they ran out and needed it to recover. That factors into kill times a lot, especially for rangers.

Also again...the rain...it doesn't affect AP that severely at all to the point where you'd be inefficient with your grind. Yes its a mechanic that exists but it is so minuscule that it holds no bearing over kill speeds. You need to get over that.

Edited by Jefferson

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Posted

That 2 seconds based on the damage dealt within those seconds does make it equal because it simply means there was a lapse in mana/stamina consumption and they ran out and needed it to recover. That factors into kill times a lot, especially for rangers.

Why would that matter if mana pool and consumption are the same in every test?  

Also again...the rain...it doesn't affect AP that severely at all to the point where you'd be inefficient with your grind. Yes its a mechanic that exists but it is so minuscule that it holds no bearing over kill speeds. You need to get over that.

Yeah I clearly stated that like 3 posts ago, you still need to accept the fact that Azwell has a better equip effect than Rosar in PvE. It doesn't matter how small it is, it is a better effect to have. 

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Posted

Why would that matter if mana pool and consumption are the same in every test?  

Yeah I clearly stated that like 3 posts ago, you still need to accept the fact that Azwell has a better equip effect than Rosar in PvE. It doesn't matter how small it is, it is a better effect to have. 

It matters because the sample size was very small and wasn't accounting for RNG with the hits. One could have gotten luckier than the other with actual hits, the only way to really test it is to use a much larger sample size.

In PvE the Rosar has more AP, even if by just 1 as well as the 2 gem slots. 2 gem slots will always be better than the 1 gem slot and the equip effect that Azwell has simply because rain does not decrease AP that much so the use of that is not even circumstantially viable because it does little to nothing and you're going to get more use out of 2 gem slots and the slightly more AP that Rosar has.

The case your making for Azwell is purely based on an equip effect that majority on this game knows does very, very, very, very, very little for their actual grind efficiency since the AP reduction from rain is so tiny it is completely negligible and thus makes the entire mechanic null.

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Posted

It matters because the sample size was very small and wasn't accounting for RNG with the hits. One could have gotten luckier than the other with actual hits, the only way to really test it is to use a much larger sample size.

In PvE the Rosar has more AP, even if by just 1 as well as the 2 gem slots. 2 gem slots will always be better than the 1 gem slot and the equip effect that Azwell has simply because rain does not decrease AP that much so the use of that is not even circumstantially viable because it does little to nothing and you're going to get more use out of 2 gem slots and the slightly more AP that Rosar has.

And again, this doesn't mean anything if you don't provide your own evidence...A small sample size is still better than no sample size. 

The case your making for Azwell is purely based on an equip effect that majority on this game knows does very, very, very, very, very little for their actual grind efficiency since the AP reduction from rain is so tiny it is completely negligible and thus makes the entire mechanic null.

It's not based on the equip effect, it's based on doing more dps than Krea. I mentioned the rain effect because it's more useful than ignore res in PvE. If it just so happens to rain while you're grinding, then you're not being efficient. It's as simple as that, I don't know what you're trying to argue here. 

 

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Posted

And again, this doesn't mean anything if you don't provide your own evidence...A small sample size is still better than no sample size. 

It's not based on the equip effect, it's based on doing more dps than Krea. I mentioned the rain effect because it's more useful than ignore res in PvE. If it just so happens to rain while you're grinding, then you're not being efficient. It's as simple as that, I don't know what you're trying to argue here. 

 

Again the Rosar effect is a set effect and I am not saying use the whole set, I am saying its still a better option than a Yuria or an Azwell in this case. Using an Azwell when its raining isn't being "efficient" because the effect isn't doing anything, the Rosar by that logic would be more efficient since you can slot 2x 2 AP gems or 2x Attack Speed or 2x Critical hit chance into it which is going to help your grinding more than the 1 gem and the Azwell effect. If we're talking efficiency then the Rosar still outperforms it just based on that, it opens up gem slots to help max out AS, Crit, or CS depending on your class. Or even add in 2x accuracy gems into the Rosar rather than just the 1. Even if the Azwell is on the same base accuracy as a Rosar that extra slot makes the Rosar more worth it and keeps the Azwell as still useless because its set effect effectively does nothing.

No one while grinding has ever had an issue with clear speed and gone "Oh, its raining. Man, I wish I had an Azwell." Not a thing.

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Posted

@Virago , what makes you think only new players will be playing Dark Knight? There are multiple times throughout your discussion with @Jefferson where you state that new players would at best be putting a +2 AP Gem in the extra slot. What about people that have the +5 AP power gem, that costs a "whopping" 1.8mil? What about the fact that it is significantly easier to gem for 5 AS/5 Crit when your weapon has 2 gem slots? What about the fact that it is much easier to farm for a Krea/Rosar weapon right now than it is to get an Azwell (just take a look at the marketplace, over 10k Krea/Rosar kriegsmesser sold compared to 384 Azwell). After all, the whole point of this thread was to figure out where the Kriegsmesser's were dropping so people could go farm and enchant them.

 

At best, Azwell is roughly equal to Krea/Rosar in terms of DPS, but when factoring in everything else (extra crystal slot, easy to get) Krea/Rosar pulls ahead of Azwell. Also Virago, quit comparing the "No AP Loss in the Rain", a special effect, with Rosar's 10% Ignore Resist, a set effect. Most people won't be using a Rosar offhand so there is no reason to be comparing those stats, and while you're correct in saying that Azwell's special effect is better than Rosar's (which doesn't even have an equip/special effect lol), Azwell's effect is still so utterly useless that it isn't worth mentioning. It's possible to level from 1-50 in 2-3 hours if you're properly prepared, so worrying about the rain is just silly.

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Posted

Again the Rosar effect is a set effect and I am not saying use the whole set, I am saying its still a better option than a Yuria or an Azwell in this case. Using an Azwell when its raining isn't being "efficient" because the effect isn't doing anything, the Rosar by that logic would be more efficient since you can slot 2x 2 AP gems or 2x Attack Speed or 2x Critical hit chance into it which is going to help your grinding more than the 1 gem and the Azwell effect. If we're talking efficiency then the Rosar still outperforms it just based on that, it opens up gem slots to help max out AS, Crit, or CS depending on your class. Or even add in 2x accuracy gems into the Rosar rather than just the 1. Even if the Azwell is on the same base accuracy as a Rosar that extra slot makes the Rosar more worth it and keeps the Azwell as still useless because its set effect effectively does nothing.

No one while grinding has ever had an issue with clear speed and gone "Oh, its raining. Man, I wish I had an Azwell." Not a thing.

I'm not talking about the whole Rosar set. I said Rosar's effect isn't useful were as Azwell is actually useful for PvE. Again, it doesn't matter how insignificant you try to make it seem; Rain effect is better than negative resist in PvE, period. I also said it doesn't make or break the item 4 posts ago, but you keep grasping at straws. And holy shit, stop repeating yourself I know Rosar has an extra slot. The question is do you have evidence of Rosar doing more dps than Azwell. The only evidence we have right is Azwell outperforms Krea. Don't bother replying if you don't have the evidence, you're wasting my time. 

@Virago , what makes you think only new players will be playing Dark Knight? 

What makes you think I was talking about older players? 

Azwell's effect is still so utterly useless that it isn't worth mentioning. It's possible to level from 1-50 in 2-3 hours if you're properly prepared, so worrying about the rain is just silly.

If Azwell's effect is utterly useless then what does that mean for Rosar's effect in PvE? lol. And I'm not worrying about anything, I'm just pointing out it's more useful than ignoring resistance in PvE. Why are you people so butthurt that I'm pointing out the obvious? 

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I'm not talking about the whole Rosar set. I said Rosar's effect isn't useful were as Azwell is actually useful for PvE. Again, it doesn't matter how insignificant you try to make it seem; Rain effect is better than negative resist in PvE, period. I also said it doesn't make or break the item 4 posts ago, but you keep grasping at straws. And holy shit, stop repeating yourself I know Rosar has an extra slot. The question is do you have evidence of Rosar doing more dps than Azwell. The only evidence we have right is Azwell outperforms Krea. Don't bother replying if you don't have the evidence, you're wasting my time. 

What makes you think I was talking about older players? 

If Azwell's effect is utterly useless then what does that mean for Rosar's effect in PvE? lol. And I'm not worrying about anything, I'm just pointing out it's more useful than ignoring resistance in PvE. Why are you people so butthurt that I'm pointing out the obvious? 

And we're saying pointing out that Rosar's effect isn't useful in PvE in comparison to Azwells is pointless because Azwell's effect is also useless. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm trying to point out to you that you're trying to argue a case for a weapon in comparison to a weapon that actually has statistic benefits over an Azwell aka 2 gem slots and more AP. I wouldn't keep pointing it out if you would actually recognize that it gives the Rosar an edge over the Azwell, the same goes for Krea.

Also the evidence doesn't even show that the Azwell outperforms the Krea, all we have is 1 test per weapon combination and there is not much of a difference between the two. All we see is that one test isn't enough to accurately track which might be better considering the number of hits within timespans that are not that far apart. Just based on that information they are nearly similar in damage/accuracy minus gems. Which in that case, and by that logic, the Krea in that scenario would come out as the winner because of the extra gem slot.

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statistic benefits over an Azwell

There's nothing to suggest that's the case though. 

Also the evidence doesn't even show that the Azwell outperforms the Krea, all we have is 1 test per weapon combination and there is not much of a difference between the two. All we see is that one test isn't enough to accurately track which might be better considering the number of hits within timespans that are not that far apart. Just based on that information they are nearly similar in damage/accuracy minus gems. Which in that case, and by that logic, the Krea in that scenario would come out as the winner because of the extra gem slot.

The test showed you could save a few seconds killing monsters. If you don't have evidence to the contrary then why are you still replying? 

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There's nothing to suggest that's the case though. 

The test showed you could save a few seconds killing monsters. If you don't have evidence to the contrary then why are you still replying? 

Because the evidence is literally in the video. Unless they had a 100% hitrate, which is not the case, there are still attacks missing meaning attacks hitting or missing is still based on a % chance to hit which means there is an RNG factor that is not being accounted for in the testing itself meaning the video doesn't prove anything as to what you are trying to describe as your point. That is what you're not getting about it. The video does show, yes, that the Yuria for sure gets outperformed, that is glaringly obvious enough and people know that from experience with the weapon itself. However when it comes to the comparison between, in this case, Krea and Azwell the distance between them is so small, nearly similar, that there is an RNG variable in there that would require much more testing to be done to prove either of our points to be true. However in this same scenario the Krea has something extra attached to it inherently that means statistically it outperforms the Azwell; the extra gem slot. That is what makes or breaks the comparison, the fact that you can slot extra stats into that weapon which would push it above the Azwell.

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Because the evidence is literally in the video. Unless they had a 100% hitrate, which is not the case, there are still attacks missing meaning attacks hitting or missing is still based on a % chance to hit which means there is an RNG factor that is not being accounted for in the testing itself meaning the video doesn't prove anything as to what you are trying to describe as your point. That is what you're not getting about it. The video does show, yes, that the Yuria for sure gets outperformed, that is glaringly obvious enough and people know that from experience with the weapon itself. However when it comes to the comparison between, in this case, Krea and Azwell the distance between them is so small, nearly similar, that there is an RNG variable in there that would require much more testing to be done to prove either of our points to be true. However in this same scenario the Krea has something extra attached to it inherently that means statistically it outperforms the Azwell; the extra gem slot. That is what makes or breaks the comparison, the fact that you can slot extra stats into that weapon which would push it above the Azwell.

The video literally shows Azwell outperforming Krea. It doesn't matter what you say fam, you don't have anything better to provide in evidence then I'm going to go ahead and assume Azwell is better than Krea and maybe Rosar. 

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The video literally shows Azwell outperforming Krea. It doesn't matter what you say fam, you don't have anything better to provide in evidence then I'm going to go ahead and assume Azwell is better than Krea and maybe Rosar. 

Krea and Azwell literally did the same amount of hits per second in that video, you're just utterly failing at seeing that. You provided the evidence with the video you linked, if you can't recognize that then I have no idea what to say to you.

Azwell did 19 hits over 32 seconds that comes out to at least 1.6~ hits per second (32 / 19)
Krea did 21 hits over 34 seconds that comes out to at least 1.6~ hits per second (34 / 21)

 

Out of some really crude and quick math thats what I got and it is not including attack speed changes since they were not using gems. Honestly someone may have to correct me on it since I may have done it backwards. But just straight looking at it without doing the math there is a 2 second difference and a 2 hit difference between the two weapons. To me? That seems pretty damn similar and the only factor that seemed to be contributing to the difference was mana/stamina management.

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