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Crafted Economy still poop

129 posts in this topic

Posted

Using the example of a Shining Steel Lumbering Axe (it applies the same to pretty much all crafted items)

It costs

1 maple - 297 silver each

3 steel - 6297 silver each

1 pure iron crystal - 106,758 silver each

5 black stone power - 2454 silver each

Grand total = 138,216

You're only allowed to list this item for a max of 108,000 silver - 35% tax = 70,200 (value pack nets 91,260)

 

That's a net loss of 68,016 (46,956 for value pack)

 

LOSS

Is there any point in crafting items when still after a year some of the most in demand items STILL do not yield any extra silver over the sum of their parts ?

How difficult is it for the pricing algorithm to take into account the value of the base materials used + the 35% tax in order to come up with a sensible value where crafters will make a profit ?

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Posted

do the math when you or your workers gather all the mats!

But I assume most people selling axes make them for self, and sell the non-golden ones.

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Posted (edited)

As the above said, all of it can be passively gathered by your workers for pretty much 0 cost, but you're also not counting any mats your workers might return (via the thrifty skill), getting lucky tools (which are pretty much always 2-3 shards per shining steel, vs the 0-1 I usually get for a normal one), and the fact that many of those you can multiproc (getting up to 4) by making the mats  yourself.

Edited by Leuphe

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Posted

do the math when you or your workers gather all the mats!

But I assume most people selling axes make them for self, and sell the non-golden ones.

The math doesn't lie

I make MORE money selling the materials than crafting the item and selling it

 

I've had these discussions before where people don't use their brain and think that if you craft the items with worker collected resources, that it's a profit

That's just a fallacy because you're losing out on money and time of your worker than if you just sell the collected resources

 

I mean just look at the math, it costs 138k silver in materials to craft, if you DONT craft and sell the materials you get 138k - 35% tax

IF you do craft you only get 108k silver - 35% tax

 

Now I'm sure you're capable of addition and subtraction to see that you get 30k more silver selling the materials + you have additional worker who isn't wasted crafting items which yields more resources so more profit

This is NOT how an economy should function

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Posted

you can try to insult me all you want but you're the only one that needs their head checked out.

G'night.

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Posted

you can try to insult me all you want but you're the only one that needs their head checked out.

G'night.

Perhaps you shouldn't be on the internet if you find what I said insulting or you just didn't like that I did the math like you said ?

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Posted

The math doesn't lie

I make MORE money selling the materials than crafting the item and selling it

 

I've had these discussions before where people don't use their brain and think that if you craft the items with worker collected resources, that it's a profit

That's just a fallacy because you're losing out on money and time of your worker than if you just sell the collected resources

 

I mean just look at the math, it costs 138k silver in materials to craft, if you DONT craft and sell the materials you get 138k - 35% tax

IF you do craft you only get 108k silver - 35% tax

 

Now I'm sure you're capable of addition and subtraction to see that you get 30k more silver selling the materials + you have additional worker who isn't wasted crafting items which yields more resources so more profit

This is NOT how an economy should function

Ah shit, you're right. That's why nobody would sell wood planks @ 2k when the logs sell for 700 each, right? Right?

Wait... They do. But hold up, they're losing money!

Wait... No, they're not. Because you're not a high enough level processing yet to realize multiprocs are a very real thing.

You don't -just- make 1 steel or 1 crystal. And that's why you won't make profit from selling axes, but you WILL beak even roughly by self-gathering and crafting.

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Posted

Ah shit, you're right. That's why nobody would sell wood planks @ 2k when the logs sell for 700 each, right? Right?

Wait... They do. But hold up, they're losing money!

Wait... No, they're not. Because you're not a high enough level processing yet to realize multiprocs are a very real thing.

You don't -just- make 1 steel or 1 crystal. And that's why you won't make profit from selling axes, but you WILL beak even roughly by self-gathering and crafting.

No, you won't

If I sell the materials I get 138k - 35% tax

If I use the materials to craft and sell the Axe I get 108k - 35%

How is this simple math beyond you ?

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Posted

Time = money.

I'd make more money instantly selling the shining tools than having to wait days for people to buy my mats. But hey, you do you. (✿◡‿◡)

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Posted

No, you won't

If I sell the materials I get 138k - 35% tax

If I use the materials to craft and sell the Axe I get 108k - 35%

How is this simple math beyond you ?

Yes, you would if you were past skilled processing

If I get a lucky tool (which I can get pretty frequently) it's an easy 5 mil+ in shards. I'd HAPPILY take the loss on a few axes when I could get just one of those and make mad profit.

Yo dawg, wanna sell me your lucky axes? :)

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Posted

Huh that's funny. That's what we had to deal with originally when the game came out. But we didn't cry as hard. We dealt with it cut our losses and accepted the money we earned. And when value packs came out we bought em on market or with money. Like I've said many times before. This game is P2W.

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Posted

No, you won't

If I sell the materials I get 138k - 35% tax

If I use the materials to craft and sell the Axe I get 108k - 35%

How is this simple math beyond you ?

why why why do you think using this "tone" is conducive to an intelligent debate? why do you think this "tone" warrants a dev response or player to offer anything reasonable? this is a wasted post, I know, and now you'll have some snide remark to make to me because I dared comment, but holy cow, what a tool

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps you shouldn't be on the internet if you find what I said insulting or you just didn't like that I did the math like you said ?

If you can't realize all the faults in your response you should seek guidance from some peeps irl to help you control your anger, imagination and approach.

You totally went off the deep end, creating a fantasy that had nothing to do with me so you could vent your rage. Yes I understand poorly socialized people exist, on the internet and otherwise. Doesn't make it right.

And you completely ignored my second sentence, which is true for some lifeskillers. They make their own tools, sell the bits they don't want. (rarity based)

Is the crafted economy busted, yep. Everyone knows that. No need to lose your wig over it. I can't imagine anyone wasting their time for 50k these days. But we have known for over a year, you craft for self mostly. There are a few select items you can make bank on if your skills are high enough and you collect all the mats yourself. But not stuff you would sell for 50k. Those non-rare tools are nice for those of us who don't want to make tools, people who make tools keep the gold ones since they are so much better. They made the tools for self..selling scraps. See?

Good luck with your anger problem! Chill out and you may live longer! 

Edited by Luciferia

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Posted

If you are too dense you realize all the faults in your response you should seek guidance from some peeps irl to help you control your anger, imagination and approach.

You totally went off the deep end, creating a fantasy that had nothing to do with me so you could vent your rage. Yes I understand poorly socialized people like you exist, on the internet and otherwise. Doesn't make it right.

And you completely ignored my second sentence, which is true for some lifeskillers. They make their own tools, sell the bits they don't want. (rarity based)

Is the crafted economy busted, yep. Everyone knows that. No need to lose your wig over it. I can't imagine anyone wasting their time for 50k these days. But we have known for over a year, you craft for self mostly. There are a few select items you can make bank on if your skills are high enough and you collect all the mats yourself. But not stuff you would sell for 50k.

Good luck with your anger problem! Chill out and you may live longer! 

Crafting economy is balanced imo, alchemy would be a bad economy playing RNG with the stones and every important alchemy product requires you to actively gather. (✿◡‿◡)

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Posted (edited)

Time = money.

I'd make more money instantly selling the shining tools than having to wait days for people to buy my mats. But hey, you do you. (✿◡‿◡)

This is very true, there are mats that often don't sell within the 7 day allotted  window. So guess what, vendor it for a fraction or make something else.

Crafting economy is balanced imo, 

If you are happy, that is all that matters ^_^. I gave up on crafting long ago, but thats what is great about RPG, more than one path to success.

 

Edited by Luciferia

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Posted

Is the crafted economy busted, yep. Everyone knows that. No need to lose your wig over it. I can't imagine anyone wasting their time for 50k these days. But we have known for over a year, you craft for self mostly. There are a few select items you can make bank on if your skills are high enough and you collect all the mats yourself. But not stuff you would sell for 50k.

So why tell me to do the math when I showed the math. And fantasy ? What did I make up apart from show the damn math that it's better to sell the materials than to craft, which was the point of the thread

I get it, there's a lot of sensitive and elitist people on the internet but why even make your original post if you acknowledge the economy is fubar ? Make zero sense apart from trying to troll and boohoo if you take offense in what I say (despite your "dense" comment, ironic huh ?) then that's not my problem, I'm not here to make friends or tiptoe around precious snowflakes like (✿x‿x)

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Posted

You seem more like a troll really. Ignoring valid points over and over. its great you did the math, but your whole tone is ass. You made a lot of assumptions and are projecting your own issues on others.

I get it, you think you are smart. And I think you are the sensitive one. I'm just calling out your bad manners. But in no way am I hurt. You may not like to hear it, but you don't have that much influence on others.

But to the point. If you hate the economy, and hated it a year ago, crying about it now does nothing. Not sure why you would waste so much energy on something that bothers you so much. But yeah, people have reasons to sell those tools, even if you keep ignoring it.

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Posted

You seem more like a troll really. Ignoring valid points over and over. its great you did the math, but your whole tone is ass. You made a lot of assumptions and are projecting your own issues on others.

I get it, you think you are smart. And I think you are the sensitive one. I'm just calling out your bad manners. But in no way am I hurt. You may not like to hear it, but you don't have that much influence on others.

But to the point. If you hate the economy, and hated it a year ago, crying about it now does nothing. Not sure why you would waste so much energy on something that bothers you so much. But yeah, people have reasons to sell those tools, even if you keep ignoring it.

Right so let's not discuss anything on these forums.....

 

Have you not considered that a lot of materials are piled up on the market for the exact reason of it being less profitable to craft ? So others are doing the math and instead rather sell the materials resulting in an oversupply because nobody wants to buy the resources because it yields zero profit on crafted items.

Just because the issue has been ignored for a year doesn't mean I or others cannot bring it up again in attempt to raise attention to the issue

You don't like my attitude, like I said, your problem not mine, this thread is about the economy and how it's broken, not my attitude.

Why would you rather focus on my attitude instead of trying to help raise awareness for an issue you yourself even admits exists, why are you so against trying to push for improving the game ?

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Posted (edited)

Argle is quite right with the statement of netting a loss with selling some fnished products. 

Argument: Time to do other stuff
That holds truth as long as you accept the system, which argle is discussing here. If the baseline is time = money, everything sold while doing other stuff can be perceived as a win. This argument (topic) however focuses on the chain of production.

Some other things proof to yield a win, like the epheria sailboat, the new coral belt or other things (just named the two quickly)

--------

Now i like to think about the interacting material chain and some products needing the same base materals, while the listing price actually spits out a plain loss. I come to the conclusion, that there is an imbalance across the board stemming from the general "value" of items being made profitable by PA, while others are not.

So imo, Argle is right and points out another lack in the game system. Revisitng all values for all materials would be a nice thing.

-------

This is a discussion. It means you participate in a mindful exchange of perceptions, which should be done with respect, logic and as few emotions as possible, to stay on topic. If you disagree with perceptions or statements, there is always room for constructive feedback. If the issue is not resolved or both sides agree to disagree, move on and dont take it personal.

Learn the art of discussing opinions and stop jerking off your emotional distress on another user. Thanks

Edited by Archiemedis
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Posted

The biggest reason to craft anything is that depending what you craft, it sells quicker. To some extent it's worth selling at a loss than having a ton of materials just sitting around. 

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Posted

@AgleBargle 

Ask and Demand.

 

i dont  see any problem in the current system. Certain Tools get insta-sold , and materials to craft them lay around inside the market for hours to days, to a week...

 

When you need money, but you are in no hurry. Feel free to sell the components seperatly.

But when you need money fast... put in your crafted stuff.

 

If it would be as easy as you try to say, than everyone in real life would buy the parts for theyr future car and build it themselfs instead of an allready completed one that cost like 100x more xD ...

 

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Posted (edited)

Now i like to think about the interacting material chain and some products needing the same base materals, while the listing price actually spits out a plain loss. I come to the conclusion, that there is an imbalance across the board stemming from the general "value" of items being made profitable by PA, while others are not.

So imo, Argle is right and points out another lack in the game system. Revisitng all values for all materials would be a nice thing.

That's what I was trying to get across.

Why can't the pricing algorithm they use take into account the value of the materials, the recipes exists so surely it could be programmed to pull up recipe for each item, check individual item prices, factor in the 35% market tax and increase the minimum price and maximum price

The values certainly do need to be addressed because there's a pile of materials on the market just laying static due to oversupply because there's no profit in using them further up the production chain.

I'm sure if prices were adjusted, either final item prices raised or material prices lowered so that final item always yields some form of profit that we would see a more vibrant and dynamic market in action

It would also allows players to choose niche spots within the production, do they spend as little possible in terms of CP, time and silver and just sell raw materials, do they choose to sell at the production phase, or do they invest more and sell at the final crafted stage.

 

What's worrying is how people are happy to accept it broken as is while admitting at the same time that it's broke, it's like there's no desire for the game to be made better which is saddening

Edited by ArgleBargle

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Posted

Argle is quite right with the statement of netting a loss with selling some fnished products. 

Argument: Time to do other stuff
That holds truth as long as you accept the system, which argle is discussing here. If the baseline is time = money, everything sold while doing other stuff can be perceived as a win. This argument (topic) however focuses on the chain of production.

Some other things proof to yield a win, like the epheria sailboat, the new coral belt or other things (just named the two quickly)

--------

Now i like to think about the interacting material chain and some products needing the same base materals, while the listing price actually spits out a plain loss. I come to the conclusion, that there is an imbalance across the board stemming from the general "value" of items being made profitable by PA, while others are not.

So imo, Argle is right and points out another lack in the game system. Revisitng all values for all materials would be a nice thing.

-------

This is a discussion. It means you participate in a mindful exchange of perceptions, which should be done with respect, logic and as few emotions as possible, to stay on topic. If you disagree with perceptions or statements, there is always room for constructive feedback. If the issue is not resolved or both sides agree to disagree, move on and dont take it personal.

Learn the art of discussing opinions and stop jerking off your emotional distress on another user. Thanks

1) He comes off very hostile in his posts,

2) He only looks at 1 part of the crafting chain, ignoring workers, multiprocs, etc

3)  Also ignores the fact that most people make tools hoping to get lucky ones - which are AMAZING for getting shards with.

4) Workers often can return materials/etc, and are totally unskilled labor, so the cost of 2 cp wouldn't be worth much to most people.

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Posted (edited)

List of things you're not factoring in:

 - High processing rank proccing extra material drops when making steel.

 - High level artisan workers with the right skills having a non-trivial chance to consume less materials.

 - Procs of 'Lucky' quality tools that sell for ~400k silver per

 - The benefits of gathering/producing the ingredients yourself with workers and lifeskills.

I know about these tools in particular because I make them myself. They do turn me a profit when I make them, because I'm gathering the bulk of the goods (No, I won't tell you which) and producing the key ingredients myself. This includes the pure iron crystals, as if you know the right locations and nodes you can even get the traces needed for those, and if you have high enough alchemy you can easily produce them in sufficient quantities. 

In short, the issue isn't with the crafting system. It's with you. Crafting in BDO is profitable if you gather and produce all the ingredients yourself, but it is not profitable if you simply buy the ingredients. There are some rare exceptions to this, products which you can turn a profit with lifeskills high enough and bought ingredients, but people will not tell you which items those are or what workers, lifeskills and buffs are necessary to do that. 

Do you even understand how the luck stat on workers and the skills they have impact the production of tools? My guess is no. You're just slamming ingredients in and expecting a profit because you upgraded a workshop and assigned a worker, which means you deserve to fail.

 

EDIT: The prices of final products vs ingredients absolutely DO factor in profit, they just don't let you turn a profit without having a detailed knowledge of every step in the process and using the best workers coupled with gathering key ingredients yourself.

Edited by Zann
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Posted

List of things you're not factoring in:

 - High processing rank proccing extra material drops when making steel.

It doesn't matter if you get a million steel from proccing on making of steel

The recipe still requires 3 steel

If you sell those steel and the other items you make more money than if you craft the item

 

Relying on the proc CHANCE to get an additional lucky tool or less materials is not reliable because it's yet more RNG so it's impossible to factor into profit margins as it isn't a consistent thing that you always get, it's gamblers fallacy to suggest everyone has the same results when it's entirely dependant on RNG and there are always outliers on both sides of the RNG bellcurve.

 

It's like I'm talking an alien language when the math clearly shows it doesn't matter how many materials you gather from your workers you will always yield more silver selling the raw materials than the final item, sure it may take longer but it makes no difference the end result is still the same at 30k difference between material cost vs final product. It doesn't matter if you buy the materials or you send workers you get less silver, 30k to be exact

 

I'm not saying you don't make money selling the crafted items, I'm saying you make LESS money

I don't see how it's so difficult to comprehend, same responses as last time where people assume we're talking about buying materials to make money, when that is NOT the issue

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