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Crafted Economy still poop

129 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I just wanted to check on my statement "epheria sailboat is a win".
In my books, it is:

Total max cost of all materials (final form) + 3220 units of beer for every work load = 59.415.680 silver, whereas the selling price is 200.000.000 silver before the market fee.
Please correct me if am wrong here.

Argles point still stands solid in itself for other goods. I think there would be a good balance, if PA decides to raise some values for certain products. Right now the market system lets you make a profit. It is however lacking behind (imo) when compared to simple gathering (since the introduction of shards), fishing and trading.

The coral belts are regulated by manos prices/quantities, which supress a high win, but still offer a win in the end. Likewise the materials for crafting these belts (corals etc.) are way too cheap, making it bothersome to gather and sell those as a way to make profit. Simply increasing those values and decreasing the manos required would feel like a buff. But then again, shards can drop from gathering, so maybe thats why the total value of those materials is as low as it is.

Making the whole picture sort of leaning towards a narrow path for making a win, contrary to logic demanding the highest win for all max tier goods.
 

Edited by Archiemedis

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Posted

As i already stated my view on the market prices, i just wanted to check on my statement "epheria sailboat is a win".
In my books, it is:

Total max cost of all materials (final form) + 3220 units of beer for every work load = 59.415.680 silver, whereas the selling price is 200.000.000 silver before the market fee.
Please correct me if am wrong here.

 

Well if you gathered everything yourself instead of selling raws, for the undervalued market price then yes.. thing is those mats aint usually sold, bcs of that market price... Logs are sold for 15k on pre-order (was 30k when boat was released), which results in 190M just for those if you want to buy them... And even if you buy all the mats you have to invest time for daily quests and several workers for several days, which with other materials adds up to actual price much higher than 200M...

Now if you gather resources yourself... How much time it costs you? And still those workers... 2 hours a day for 10 days lets say... Thats already a 200M in grinding lost... And workers and daily quests on top of that (not one worker for 5 minutes like OP considers a big cost... 20 workers for several days)... Epheria sailboat is highly undervalued and can look good only considering maximum price according to market, which aint right in the first place...

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Posted

How the hell do you want to turn chicken meat into merchant wagon?

Okay it's clear you have some mental issues, where did I ever mention chicken meat or using it to make merchant wagons ?

Steel is used in a lot of recipes, however, the market is stagnant in the movement of steel, nobody buys it which is why there's hundreds of thousands of it on the marketplace

This is NOT a good mechanic for the game

Also seeing as you bring up chicken meat despite me not mentioning it at all in this entire thread (well done on projecting your delusions) it's still used in some useful recipes, however again, as you say it's a trash commodity, which it shouldn't be, no commodity should be trash if you want for a productive and in depth crafting system and economy.

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Posted (edited)

Well if you gathered everything yourself instead of selling raws, for the undervalued market price then yes.. thing is those mats aint usually sold, bcs of that market price... Logs are sold for 15k on pre-order (was 30k when boat was released), which results in 190M just for those if you want to buy them... And even if you buy all the mats you have to invest time for daily quests and several workers for several days, which with other materials adds up to actual price much higher than 200M...

Now if you gather resources yourself... How much time it costs you? And still those workers... 2 hours a day for 10 days lets say... Thats already a 200M in grinding lost... And workers and daily quests on top of that (not one worker for 5 minutes like OP considers a big cost... 20 workers for several days)... Epheria sailboat is highly undervalued and can look good only considering maximum price according to market, which aint right in the first place...

Thanks for that information.

But please keep in mind, that the comparison you made (workers, grinding etc) is a false one, as time spend =/= time spend. If you grind a lot and have workers located at high selling material nodes, you mass up a win, which is a finished event for you and your time. I could counter that with adding "but i can make 3,7m with farming hides + all my shard drops can get up to over 15m an hour in the time you grind and maybe get killed and/or need to travel back and forth".

If i gather all the materials for the sailboat myself (which i do for all pine and logs), i get shards as a bonus and never grind anything, as it is not my play style. We cannot sum up all possible ways of playing the game to counter each and everyones favored behaviour. We can however have a finite space of time in which all we do counts towards our win.

Edited by Archiemedis

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Posted

Okay it's clear you have some mental issues, where did I ever mention chicken meat or using it to make merchant wagons ?

Steel is used in a lot of recipes, however, the market is stagnant in the movement of steel, nobody buys it which is why there's hundreds of thousands of it on the marketplace

This is NOT a good mechanic for the game

Also seeing as you bring up chicken meat despite me not mentioning it at all in this entire thread (well done on projecting your delusions) it's still used in some useful recipes, however again, as you say it's a trash commodity, which it shouldn't be, no commodity should be trash if you want for a productive and in depth crafting system and economy.

You are talking about useless materials and useful products,,, Name me one thing that is made form useless crap and is useful... 

And steel not bein sold is again another thing... Overpriced item... If it had price according to its value, your axe would be closer to in price but still not there... And then again people would rather buy cheaper materials and then craft it themselves since it barely costs anything, than throw 100k silver on top of it (ofc some would pay out of lazyness - me - but many wouldnt)... And you would need to lower the price of steel by a lot... But then again it isnt problem of product bein too cheap... Its case of material bein too expensive... (this one material... idk how its now, but pure iron crystals were usually sold out and i had to preorder them, which again shifts price of product again)...

It aint as simple as crafting not bein worth it... Its case of many materials not having adequate rpicis bcs of shitty algorhytm deciding them... Crafting is often a way to sell some of less sought materials by combining them with more useful ones... But then again those sought materials are undervalued AF in most cases...

So... As i said... You shouldnt get 100% profit just for smashing few random materials together for no cost... But base price definitely needs overhaul, if thats the thing you wanted to achieve with this topic...

 

Thanks for that information.
But please keep in mind, that the comparison you made (workers, grinding etc) is a false one, as time spend =/= time spend. If you grind a lot and have workers located at high selling material nodes, you mass up a win, which is a finished event for you and your time. I could counter that with adding "but i can make 3,7m with farming hides + all my shard drops can get up to over 15m an hour in the time you grind and maybe get killed and/or need to travel back and forth".

If i gather all the materials for the sailboat myself (which i do for all pine and logs), i get shards as a bonus and never grind anything, as it is not my play style. We cannot sum up all possible ways of playing the game to counter each and everyones favored behaviour. We can however have a finite space of time in which all we do counts towards our win.

Yep, expecially during an event you could get many sharp/hard blackstones... Which you cant get otherwise withtou farming... But you could as well farm things that earn more (rough stones mining in valencia)... So another loss... Thing is, if you want epheria boat you are losing money anyway... You lose money from grind by lifeskilling... You lsoe money by lifeskilling bcs you dont collect the right thing.. Then you use take your workers from other profitable work (or you have to invest into new ones)... And still you have to bother with daily quests (its a while, but ride there or locked alt is another money lost)... 

You can ofc cover most of materials with workers, but you can get logs only by manual gathering... And just those logs have higher actual value than what you are selling the ship for... Actual value not market value... Hence if you want your own ship, the best case is indeed to create it yourself, since buying mats will result in 2 times its market cost... But if you want to use your energy and time for making money, go dig some stoned, place workers on excavation nodes and instead of doing quests go grinding, and you will earn more... This discusion was there already iir...

Your boat = gather+craft... (and also not many people will be selling them, so you without extreme luck you have to craft it anyway)

Your money = grind/imperial craft/digging...

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Posted

Wow guess we all should be grateful crafting doesn't use cp anymore or boy would there be some crying. My tool shop in Calp turns out some fancy tools and I keep them all so I can spread them out to my alt's I do sell a few lucky ones but usually cuz I want a bit of extra pocket change. 

Really after this last year of BDO lifeskilling I find the economy reasonable but then again, I usually only sell. Nothing brings more satisfaction then making things yourself and keeping your workers busy. I must admit that I wish I could gather rough stone quicker, lol

I don't see the point in crying over a few silver coins when there are so many different ways to make silver in this game.

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Posted

Wow guess we all should be grateful crafting doesn't use cp anymore or boy would there be some crying. My tool shop in Calp turns out some fancy tools and I keep them all so I can spread them out to my alt's I do sell a few lucky ones but usually cuz I want a bit of extra pocket change. 

Really after this last year of BDO lifeskilling I find the economy reasonable but then again, I usually only sell. Nothing brings more satisfaction then making things yourself and keeping your workers busy. I must admit that I wish I could gather rough stone quicker, lol

I don't see the point in crying over a few silver coins when there are so many different ways to make silver in this game.

Yeah when everything cost energy ti was another circle of hell... Still doesnt change the fact that marketplace algorythm sucks... Some goods are overpriced AF and market is flooded and other iant sold at all, bcs it aint worth it, and those few go away in preorders for much higherm prices...

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Posted

But base price definitely needs overhaul, if thats the thing you wanted to achieve with this topic...

Finally, you get it

Either base material costs need to be lowered or final product prices need to be increased

That is the only 2 ways it will fix the problem

There is a further option but it adds more complication and would need a drastic increase in crafted item price which would be to increase the amount of "trash" resources within a recipe

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Posted (edited)

Roak, i think you are going at this from a perspective that is not reflecting human interest.

1) The logs sell for 830 silver max price currently. I just chopped 1000 logs and got 52 squares out of it. Now reducing that to 50, i would need 16.000 logs to make the 800 squares.
830 s x 16.000 logs = 13.280.000 silver
24.255 s x 800 squares = 19.404.000 silver
So i dont quite understand your "actual" value?

But apart from that: no. You can not go around a players natural way of playing. Every human player has a set amount of time and energy. Every gaming acitvity costs real life time and energy. You can not presume that activity X is the best and one would lose out on silver, if one does not follow the right way. I do not lose out on silver by using my workers for the ship. I have most good nodes covered and the way i play, the sailboat is a passive income after 20 days. The daily takes 3 min. away. The alt is using the energy to either boost node levels or buy better tier workers. You make it sound like a loss, where it really depends on HOW you play.

So i am a little irritated by your logic here. You can either agree or disagree, but i just want people who read this topic to understand, that the best way to play is to have fun and do what costs you the least amount of real life energy and time. And the best way to earn money is by trying out different things suitable to your own play style
 

Edited by Archiemedis

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I agree the marketplace pre-order needs to be examined cuz something ain't quite right with it. I needed 1 fruit of crimson flame for my alchemy daily so I tried it, lol While waiting I climbed up the hill west of Florin and found my own in about 15 minutes. 3 days later I still hadn't won the bid on the fruit even though I bid 20k higher then the listed price, I will never use that system again. 

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Posted (edited)

Finally, you get it

Either base material costs need to be lowered or final product prices need to be increased

That is the only 2 ways it will fix the problem

There is a further option but it adds more complication and would need a drastic increase in crafted item price which would be to increase the amount of "trash" resources within a recipe

I am for market overhaul since beta, so no finally... :D 

And neither of those is right... You would screw things up even more than they are... What needs to be done is either evaluation of every item separately, or algorhytm to go over limits in some extreme cases... Now its just goes up and down between fixed prices, which are in some cases too high and in tohers too low (and not just by a bit... it can even be several times a value of that item)...

So once again your suggestion is bad... :D 

Roak, i think you are going at this from a perspective that is not reflecting human interest.

1) The logs sell for 830 silver max price currently. I just chopped 1000 logs and got 52 squares out of it. Now reducing that to 50, i would need 16.000 logs to make the 800 squares.
830 s x 16.000 logs = 13.280.000 silver
24.255 s x 800 squares = 19.404.000 silver
So i dont quite understand your "actual" value?

But apart from that: no. You can not go around a players natural way of playing. Every human player has a set amount of time and energy. Every gaming acitvity costs real life time and energy. You can not presume that activity X is the best and one would lose out on silver, if one does not follow the right way. I do not lose out on silver by using my workers for the ship. I have most good nodes covered and the way i play, the sailboat is a passive income after 20 days. The daily takes 3 min. away. The alt is using the energy to either boost node levels or buy better tier workers. You make it sound like a loss, where it really depends on HOW you play.

So i am a little irritated by your logic here. You can either agree or disagree, but i just want people who read this topic to understand, that the best way to play is to have fun and do what costs you the least amount of real life energy and time. And the best way to earn money is by trying out different things suitable to your own play style
 

On market pre-order value of logs is 15 000 silver... So yeah you get 830 silver from selling it, but the one buying has to spend 20 times more to get them... So its underpriced material (by a LOT)...  Maybe i mixed those 2 scenarios too much and people get lost in it with my poor english...

From buyers perspective... Either he can get materials and craft it himself - which will cost him almost 200M in just logs, and workers and quests on top of it... Or he can buy it for 200M which aint even that much to grind for... So there buying it from market finished is much better...

From sellers perspective... Again he can buy materials in which case he will overpay it by tens if not hundreds of milions (you buy mats for their actual(preorder) value but sell for market value(200M) + work on top of it... In which case it aint worth selling at all... Or he can gather and craft it whole... Which is the best case... Now where lies the problem here... 

The resources needed... Crafting it yourself is definitely the best way to get it, since you wont be able to snipe it (if you could get it with 100% succes for 200M thats much better)... Now which ones?  Eventually you would run out of steel and flax as well and you would have to buy it (which is easy in this case) from market as well... But for most people its nonfactor since they have stocks of tens of thousands in warehouses, so they at elast have now a mean to turn them into money.. So here its good... Daily quests... Its pain traveling back and forth or leaving alt there useless, but somehow manageable as well... But you have to dedicate several (at least) workers to it... Its CP and manpower that could be used elsewhere... Now lets say you have 350+CP and dont need quite a bit of them bcs rest fo your crafting empire is finished and you are don every other more proftable thing alongside boat... OK we solved this one as well (somehow)... So the biggest difference is your time and energy spend... Now you either go gather (regardless of what you gather, you get blackstones so those aint a factor here), in which case you can shop wood for your boat (same place over and over again), or you can go skinning and craft gear from same leftover materials we overlooked bit higher, or mining graves for shitload of rough stones and ores... If you are not using energy and time is a case you are competing with proccessing for crates or imperial alchemy/cooking/fishing/trading etc... 

So overall it looks good for epheria sailboat... But i dont have 350 CP and my crate empire takes most of the ones i have... Workers from epheria are crafting crates (they did a boat before... i didnt want to bother with trent lodgings and sending materials there from workers that didnt fit in)... Time i spend chopping the same woods again and again i spend proccessing for crates, which will earn those 200M faster than in 2-3 weeks... I could grind as well, earning those 200M in few days... But i hate grinding even more than i hate gathering the same resource over and over again... So instead i rather am trying new things i havent done already... But thats getting too far away from the point... Thing is, if those 200M are your reason for building a ship and not the ship itself... You can earn those much faster by crafting other things or just grinding...

But if you have so much CP you dont know what to do with it, you can spare one char parked there and you play so many hours daily that you already finished every other income work you had for that day and market is sold out of wood or sockets for grinding, then yes building epheria sialboat is a good idea...

 

edit: or if you have milions of logs in warehouse for some unknown reason its good idea as well... They aint worth selling otherwise so turning them into a ship is pure profit... If you have to grind everything from 0, then you are better of just grinding sausans for money...

Edited by RoakOriginal
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Posted

So once again your suggestion is bad... :D 

In your misinformed opinion

In all the games I've played which have had the system suggested in place, they have all worked and have provided the best and most enjoyable crafting experiences and provided thriving and dynamic markets

Your idea, or lack of idea does not solve the problem of oversupply  which we currently have or adding relevance to crafting beyond being self sufficient and avoiding the market entirely.

Making the final items profitable is the only way you will alleviate this problem

Or do you think having stagnant "trash" resources on the marketplace numbered in the hundreds of thousands, where it's better to sell them to an NPC than add to the amount on the market is a good system ?

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In your misinformed opinion

In all the games I've played which have had the system suggested in place, they have all worked and have provided the best and most enjoyable crafting experiences and provided thriving and dynamic markets

Your idea, or lack of idea does not solve the problem of oversupply  which we currently have or adding relevance to crafting beyond being self sufficient and avoiding the market entirely.

Making the final items profitable is the only way you will alleviate this problem

Or do you think having stagnant "trash" resources on the marketplace numbered in the hundreds of thousands, where it's better to sell them to an NPC than add to the amount on the market is a good system ?

All the other games you have played werent BDO... Once again you are looking at one thing in a vacuum... I already explained to you why it wouldnt help... Since some materials are too cheap and some too expensive... You cant just increase/decrease price of one tier, bcs you want one specific thing to be worth for you...

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Okay, let me make this easy for you.

I make 10 tools. on average, 1-2 of those will be lucky when I use my artisan human. I lose 30k from the other 9 tools, but I gain 250k from the one lucky tool. I'm already breaking even almost, right? Plus I factor in the fact that my human will save some mats, sometimes being the iron crystal.

I can sell the tool, or use it for pretty much guaranteed shards (1.5-2.5m ea, avg 2 shards per tool). 

Do I really make less money? 

RNG is not a factor when you multiply by 1000. You'll come out to an average statistic over massive sample sizes and you'll be making money.

From 10 tools 1-2 lucky on average ??? Thats absolutely not average but lucky. Recently I've made 36th shining tool yet I am still waiting for the lucky version & ofc done that with artisan human lvl 30  

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From 10 tools 1-2 lucky on average ??? Thats absolutely not average but lucky. Recently I've made 36th shining tool yet I am still waiting for the lucky version & ofc done that with artisan human lvl 30  

Idk, you're unlucky then, but 1-2 lucky per 10 is definitely average for me?

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Idk, you're unlucky then, but 1-2 lucky per 10 is definitely average for me?

Well.. ----- me then... In a hundred axes i didnt get even one lucky one, with artisan human worker... :D

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The math doesn't lie

I make MORE money selling the materials than crafting the item and selling it

 

I've had these discussions before where people don't use their brain and think that if you craft the items with worker collected resources, that it's a profit

That's just a fallacy because you're losing out on money and time of your worker than if you just sell the collected resources

 

I mean just look at the math, it costs 138k silver in materials to craft, if you DONT craft and sell the materials you get 138k - 35% tax

IF you do craft you only get 108k silver - 35% tax

 

Now I'm sure you're capable of addition and subtraction to see that you get 30k more silver selling the materials + you have additional worker who isn't wasted crafting items which yields more resources so more profit

This is NOT how an economy should function

But you also have to weigh the speed at which those materials sell individually. I know a shining steel axe will sell within 5-20 minutes. The maple timber and black stone powder may take hours, the pure crystal perhaps even longer since they don't have much crafting use, and to a lesser extent the same for steel.

Part of lifeskilling is weighing the balance of selling the materials for a higher price, but you may not get that profit for a few days, or selling the crafted item and getting it much sooner.

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But you also have to weigh the speed at which those materials sell individually. I know a shining steel axe will sell within 5-20 minutes. The maple timber and black stone powder may take hours, the pure crystal perhaps even longer since they don't have much crafting use, and to a lesser extent the same for steel.

Part of lifeskilling is weighing the balance of selling the materials for a higher price, but you may not get that profit for a few days, or selling the crafted item and getting it much sooner.

Yet if prices were lowered for resources, or raised for crafted items we wouldn't see such a problem with resources stagnating the market due to oversupply and becoming nothing more than vendor trash. An adjustment of the prices so that crafted items yield profit will only be good for the economy as it means everything is being used and has a purpose

Idk, you're unlucky then, but 1-2 lucky per 10 is definitely average for me?

Like I said earlier, what is true for you is NOT true for others

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Posted (edited)

I don't think you're actually supposed to "trade"(sell) things between players for profit like ever. This games economy seems to be set up in a solo based way where other players are basically "npcs" that can sell you goods for "reasonable prices" on the marketplace but are rarely up because they aren't worth being sold.

 

I dunno, from what I've seen like nothing is worth making or farming to sell via crafting/gathering and you should just make and farm your own stuff so you can make your own boats and wagons etc. Thus nothing is ever up on the marketplace to be bought so there's no actual economy of craft/gathering goods.  The only things worth selling and buying are combat equipment which actually exist on the marketplace.

 

It's intended design, I think.

Edited by Shiyo

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Yet if prices were lowered for resources, or raised for crafted items we wouldn't see such a problem with resources stagnating the market due to oversupply and becoming nothing more than vendor trash. An adjustment of the prices so that crafted items yield profit will only be good for the economy as it means everything is being used and has a purpose

That's true. I wonder how the system comes up with these prices though.. I bought PRI Red Coral Earrings for 24mil each a week and a half ago and then they shot up to 42mil a piece, and now they're back down. How in the world does that even happen???

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Set prices are honestly the worst thing in this game.

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It's intended design, I think.

It makes no sense to give the illusion of so much depth yet make it the most shallow system in any MMO though, they could have made the whole system a hell of a lot more streamlined yet still serve the same function it currently has

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1 pure iron crystal - 106,758 silver each

It doesn't cost anywhere near this amount to make a pure Crystal.  ...and it's one of the few outliers in the game for 1 reason only:   Trace of Savagery only has ONE NODE while other Traces have 2 Nodes and some other Traces are really easy to get just from Mob farming = by melting down common weapon/offhand drops.  ...which  AGAIN, is also an exclusivity issue since the ONLY mobs in the entire game that drop Demihuman weapons are the level 17 rebels inside Castle Ruins.

 

..and yes I've made formal posts to Suggestions forum for Kakao to address these GLARING SHORTAGES ... no I didn't expect them to even read it.  These people don't care about "communication" and that's why they've never gotten another Dime out of me

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Posted (edited)

It doesn't cost anywhere near this amount to make a pure Crystal.

I never said that's how much it costs to MAKE

That's the price if you are to sell it on the market

Yet again another who doesn't actually pay attention to what is being discussed and jumps to misinformed conclusions because you like your ilk are incapable of any actual critical thinking

Edited by Ayl

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Set prices are honestly the worst thing in this game.

If you don't mind me asking, what makes them so terrible? The fact that they prevent from rich players controlling the market, or the fact that they guarantee a minimum price for an item and stops people from under-cutting? 

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