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Crafted Economy still poop

129 posts in this topic

Posted

They cannot set the price, that min/max price was set by Pearl Abyss, the players just went along with it without complaining because are happy to accept whatever status quo is thrown at them, because they're moronic sheep.

It has nothing to do with supply vs demand otherwise we would see the hundreds of "trash" resources on the market fall in price, which they don't because for some reason PA wants to keep the prices artificially high.

PA control the prices, not the players

No you are wrong, most of it were done by players... In first few months of game price of shining tools were same as now, over 100k+... Then PA added shard/hard drop to gathering in preparation for valencia and +20 update and a lot more players started to gather and craft that tools... Yes ofc demand for them increased too, but it was overshadowed by crafters who made that tools to get lucky ones and Mp was simply oversupply... Thats why price fall to 30k, not because of PA... Then why price come back to 100k+ again? Because of few reasons:

- price of hard/sharp decrease from 7,2m/3m to 3,2m/1,6m making it less attractive as source of profit;

- gathering for few hours everyday for months is tiring and some crafters/gatherers just simple give up this activity;

- a lot crafters realised that crate trading give similiar/little less profit then active crafting while being a lot less tiring, cause its almost completely 24/7 afk activity and a lot top crafters switched to crates trading;

- grinding become a lot more profitable then before (gahaz, pirates with m2, pila ku, elites, gatekeepers etc) and some crafters switched to grinding;

- gathering events in last months (3 weeks one and 2 weeks one) make demand of shining tools temporary increased...

 

There is a lot stuff on market that are hurt cause of market restrictions, but shining tools arent one of them... Most reason why price of them raise and fall are done by players themself...

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Posted

Okay, let me make this easy for you.

I make 10 tools. on average, 1-2 of those will be lucky when I use my artisan human. I lose 30k from the other 9 tools, but I gain 250k from the one lucky tool. I'm already breaking even almost, right? Plus I factor in the fact that my human will save some mats, sometimes being the iron crystal.

I can sell the tool, or use it for pretty much guaranteed shards (1.5-2.5m ea, avg 2 shards per tool). 

Do I really make less money? 

RNG is not a factor when you multiply by 1000. You'll come out to an average statistic over massive sample sizes and you'll be making money.

So you lose 270k on the non-lucky tools and make 250k on the lucky one?  That's still a loss of 30k after a bunch of work.

The only reason to craft tools is to use them yourself (and if you are aiming for the lucky ones, you are selling the non-lucky ones to cut your losses).

It's not crafting for a living (where investing time in crafting would yield a higher sale value than the sale value of the materials).

That's the point the OP is trying to make.

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Posted

Any item that's scarce should drastically rise in price, it doesn't mean that logs should start selling for 100,000 silver each because it's true that they are easy to obtain.

Logs aren't scarce though, they can be obtained by chopping ANY tree. Ogre rings are scarce as there's no guaranteed way to farm them, logs may not appear on the market as much but that's mainly for 2 reasons; the fact that they are used for many objects and the fact that they are easy to obtain. Why sell something when you can use it to make useful objects?

If it was a free market it would control itself for the most part.

It's not a free market though, it never was and never should be. Look at games that had free markets, games like Vindictus and Tera. A handful of players could control the market and ensure that those who didn't have sufficient silver were forever blocked. To use Vindictus as an example, I controlled the rare costume market on NA because I sold NX and had enough gold in the game to out-bid ANYONE who was after an item I wanted. Whilst that can still work in this game thanks to pre-ordering, it's severely limited due to pre-orders not always going through and due to the limit on number of pre-orders you have. To use Tera as an example, one player controlled the entire economy on one server and didn't even have a powerful enough laptop to actually play the game. 

Free markets don't control themselves, they are controlled by the rich. 

The reason people don't pick up an axe and go chop some wood to sell on the market is that there is no incentive to do so as it well sell for garbage on the marketplace, only player's who are actively building an epheria ship are doing this.

Or players who are crafting: -

  • Furniture
  • Alchemy and Cooking utensils
  • Waterways and scarecrows for farming
  • Barricades and forts
  • Fishing boats and rowboats

Every log I get from my GQs goes straight into making usable scantling for cooking stations. YOU may think that there's no incentive for gathering logs, but that just shows that you've ignored most of their usefulness and focused purely on selling. Most of the base items like logs, ores, timbers and whatnot have low prices because you're not supposed to sell them; you're supposed to use them. 

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Posted

Logs aren't scarce though, they can be obtained by chopping ANY tree. Ogre rings are scarce as there's no guaranteed way to farm them, logs may not appear on the market as much but that's mainly for 2 reasons; the fact that they are used for many objects and the fact that they are easy to obtain. Why sell something when you can use it to make useful objects?

It's not a free market though, it never was and never should be. Look at games that had free markets, games like Vindictus and Tera. A handful of players could control the market and ensure that those who didn't have sufficient silver were forever blocked. To use Vindictus as an example, I controlled the rare costume market on NA because I sold NX and had enough gold in the game to out-bid ANYONE who was after an item I wanted. Whilst that can still work in this game thanks to pre-ordering, it's severely limited due to pre-orders not always going through and due to the limit on number of pre-orders you have. To use Tera as an example, one player controlled the entire economy on one server and didn't even have a powerful enough laptop to actually play the game. 

Free markets don't control themselves, they are controlled by the rich. 

Or players who are crafting: -

  • Furniture
  • Alchemy and Cooking utensils
  • Waterways and scarecrows for farming
  • Barricades and forts
  • Fishing boats and rowboats

Every log I get from my GQs goes straight into making usable scantling for cooking stations. YOU may think that there's no incentive for gathering logs, but that just shows that you've ignored most of their usefulness and focused purely on selling. Most of the base items like logs, ores, timbers and whatnot have low prices because you're not supposed to sell them; you're supposed to use them. 

 

Again on phone in class atm so apologies for a lackluster response but.

-Logs are scarce on the market, notin the game which shouldn'tbe the case if they're so easily available.

-I've already stated that I think its far too late to change BDO to a free market. I cant speak much for vindictus or tera but the market in gw2 was player controlled and worked just fine. I think you vastly overestimate a wealthy players ability to destroy a market. (Usually only happens in small scale markets, as an example in archeage I could buy all of the g-----s in the market and sell them at a 50% higher price and get away with it due to how little g-----s were there)

-Again I never said logs were useless, I simply said they were useless to sell on the market, which is strange due to how available and in demand they are.

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Posted

Checking market right now.
Steel: 6900silver

Steel = 25x iron ore + 5 coal = 25x 340 + 5x 700 = 12000 silver

6900 =/= 12000

Melted iron shard = 1633 silver

Melted iron shard = 5x iron ore = 5x 340 = 1700 silver

1633 =/= 1700 silver

 

I'm on EU btw.

I am on EU master processing10

I like to do the math on larger sample to be more accurate because of RNG. Prices are after tax with value pack

Say I have 2000 iron ore and 1000 coal.

2000 Iron ore = 1000 melted iron shard

1000 melted shards + 1000 coal = 500 steel

Current prices on MP:

Iron ore 357 silver

Coal 558 silver

Steel 5321 silver

Selling 2000 iron ore + 1000 coal = 1 272 000 silver

Selling 1000 iron shards + 1000 coal = 1 988 000 silver

Selling 500 steel = 2 660 500 silver

IDK your processing level but surely you can see the added value of processing

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Posted

 

Is the fact that the market can't be controlled worth having some items that can't be sold? Yes. You're also forgetting that whilst some base items can't be sold, they can be crafted into items that will be sold. Chicken Meat may be a terrible seller but organic feed, dark pudding and fried bird all sell well. Let's also not forget that you can vendor the items as well, you may not get the price you'd get on the marketplace but at least it will sell. Flax fabric may not sell well, but crafting it into lifeskill clothing and wagon parts then suddenly it does not sell.

The marketplace is about being smart, not crying that it's broken and then insulting everyone who disagrees with you. (not directed at you) :) 

Yeah you can vendor it, but thats it... Now if person want chicken meat for organic feed its much better for them just to get it themselves (and most have it already in stock) than to buy it, since it practically overpriced trash... Flax costumes are indeed good product, but again there should be way for newbies to turn in material those materials and others with more CP to change it into product... WIth this price its barely sold...

Am not saying it has no use.. Am saying it aint flowing as good as it could...

Also take Liverto weapons as example... Some of them are flooding the market without anyone wanting to buy them for that price... You can melt them for shards ofc... But now if everyone starts doin it, there wouldnt be any on market... If just part of people does it, there is still too much, bcs newbies wont pay so much silver for sth so bad... It could be accessible higher enchanted mid tier weapon for new players or another good resource of hard/sharp stones with no enchantement...  But what we had was merket full of +0 not long ago and now that people aint even bothering selling it there are again dozens of nechanted liverto weapons noone wants, bcs they are expensive AF and people rather go for Kzarka right away or for green weapons for fragment of the cost...

There are several items like these, which would help newbies and veterans alike if they had their price changed a bit... Its a shame they aint put into a good use...

Fixed market is good idea, but it needs someone to move prices a bit according to fotm trends... Not just fix it and dont touch it at all...

 

I think you vastly overestimate a wealthy players ability to destroy a market.

 

This is so naive... :D  You dont even have to be wealthy to start.. you just need enough time and you will build up... One player can easily control market for tens of thousands of others, if he is dedicated enough...

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Posted

This is so naive... :D  You don't even have to be wealthy to start.. you just need enough time and you will build up... One player can easily control market for tens of thousands of others, if he is dedicated enough...

I hear this quite a lot and I've never quite understood the complaint here. Yes a player can take the time to learn a market and how to manipulate it and control it for tens of thousands of players... if he is dedicated enough. But everyone I ask seems to think that some malicious player is going to come a long and jack the prices up 1000% just to mess up other players in the game, which is simply not true. People that take the time to learn the market are generally out to make money and not just mess up other player's experiences. And no one's going to buy an item that is super overpriced, like's been stated multiple times already they'd just go out and farm it themselves. Also if prices were to be jacked up super high the law of supply and demand would kick in and more people would start listing those items at a lower price in order to sell said item.

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Posted

Taking ingredients and crafting something shouldn't automatically guarantee profit from every craft. Forcing that would take the challenge out of it.

You're still not acknowledging the key fact: If you use a high-luck worker, the overall value of items crafted is higher than the value of the ingredients when making gathering tools. Yes, the non-lucky tools don't sell for more than the ingredients used to make them, but you cannot look at that single item and say "Broken lol", because that's dumb.

It's all about the averages. You make money crafting if you have a worker with high enough luck and good skills.

So, ArgleBlargle, refute that. Prove the above wrong or admit you're mistaken, please. 

This is utterly ignoring the reduction in cost gathering mats yourself adds. The prices for tools are deliberately calculated so that you get a profit crafting them only with a high luck worker with the right skills. This is intentional because it adds challenge and complexity to crafting. You have to invest time and effort in getting the best worker for the job to turn a profit reliably. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

Got it yet?

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Posted

-Logs are scarce on the market, notin the game which shouldn'tbe the case if they're so easily available.

Or people are using their logs for the items I listed above rather than listing them on the marketplace...or there's a huge demand for them so they disappeared to pre-orders as soon as they are listed. I can't speak for logs, but I had a 300,000 silver pre-order on usable scantling and I was still being beaten. 

-I've already stated that I think its far too late to change BDO to a free market. I cant speak much for vindictus or tera but the market in gw2 was player controlled and worked just fine. I think you vastly overestimate a wealthy players ability to destroy a market.

I haven't played GW2 so can't comment, but after seeing what one person could do to Tera's marketplace and what I did to Vindictus's one I don't think I'm over-estimating it at all. If we allow users to set prices then what's to stop people from listing things like usable scantling at 300,000 silver a piece rather than the 2.5k price it currently is? You're forgetting that the marketplace is also acting as a small silver sink as the seller doesn't get the pre-order amount.

 

Yeah you can vendor it, but thats it...

Have I hit my ehad rather hard and suddenly people can't make organic feed, steamed bird or fried bird? 

Now if person want chicken meat for organic feed its much better for them just to get it themselves (and most have it already in stock) than to buy it, since it practically overpriced trash...

2.7 million units of organic feed have been sold, it may be easier to make it rather then buy it (just like with most items) but some people don't have enough time to sit there and cook it. Beer for instance is very easy to make and yet 162 million units have been sold. 

Flax costumes are indeed good product, but again there should be way for newbies to turn in material those materials and others with more CP to change it into product... WIth this price its barely sold...

You're forgetting that some people aren't investing in the chicken nodes for the chicken meat but rather for the eggs, a newbie can easily invest in the node just by following the main story line quest for CP and then just selling the eggs and vendoring the chicken meat. If they dabble in cooking they can make organic feed, steamed bird and fried bird. You're also forgetting about cooking byproducts, it may be useless to make some cooked goods as there are already millions of the item on the marketplace, but if it's something I can make for free then what is the loss? Past 250 CP the byproducts become extremely useful (not that they weren't before) and they are also a viable may to acquire milk without having to spend CP on farms. 

Also take Liverto weapons as example... Some of them are flooding the market without anyone wanting to buy them for that price... You can melt them for shards ofc... But now if everyone starts doin it, there wouldnt be any on market... If just part of people does it, there is still too much, bcs newbies wont pay so much silver for sth so bad...

Unless a newbie has enough for a Liverto weapon but can't win any Kzarka weapons, after all it's better to have a Liverto to use over having no weapon at all. Once again you're trying to pass off the fact that just because you find something useless then it means that everyone agrees with you. A Liverto weapon is useless to someone with a Kzarka weapon but it's a step up for someone with a Bares weapon for instance. 

Fixed market is good idea, but it needs someone to move prices a bit according to fotm trends... Not just fix it and dont touch it at all...

We do see them changing the prices, just look at how shards have fluctuated.

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Posted

Or people are using their logs for the items I listed above rather than listing them on the marketplace...or there's a huge demand for them so they disappeared to pre-orders as soon as they are listed. I can't speak for logs, but I had a 300,000 silver pre-order on usable scantling and I was still being beaten. 

I haven't played GW2 so can't comment, but after seeing what one person could do to Tera's marketplace and what I did to Vindictus's one I don't think I'm over-estimating it at all. If we allow users to set prices then what's to stop people from listing things like usable scantling at 300,000 silver a piece rather than the 2.5k price it currently is? You're forgetting that the marketplace is also acting as a small silver sink as the seller doesn't get the pre-order amount.

 

EXACTLY, this is what lack of supply can do to the market of an item. I honestly can't understand how you can think this is worse than what the playerbase would raise the cost of an in demand item to. If the market was player controlled the price of logs would not be a problem at all as they are very easy to obtain. No one could monopolize a market that is constantly being fed massive amounts of supply, unfortunately in BDO though it's not being supplied due to lack of incentive to sell less than 1k silver per log. Honestly if you can't buy usable scantling for 300,000 silver, an item i can get in 1-2 minutes easily, you know the market is a mess.

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unfortunately in BDO though it's not being supplied due to lack of incentive to sell less than 1k silver per log.

11 million units of logs have been sold, in what world are you claiming that not enough are being sold? Just because they are bought up straight away does not mean not enough are being due to lack of incentive, it just means that they are very very useful items that are used by both life-skillers and PvPers. The prices reflect the rarity of the item and the difficult to obtain said item, not the fact that it sells out very quickly. 

Honestly if you can't buy usable scantling for 300,000 silver, an item i can get in 1-2 minutes easily, you know the market is a mess.

How is the market a mess though, because an item that I could have gathered myself in minutes sells out very quickly? The marketplace would be a mess if usable scantling were locked behind a skill wall or only open to certain professions. The fact is, pre-orders for items like logs and scantling are there for the lazy players, or those who spent hours upon hours gathering and were tired. A marketplace can't be broken when the raw material is easily attainable by every single user in the game, whether they're level 1 or level 60. 

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11 million units of logs have been sold, in what world are you claiming that not enough are being sold? Just because they are bought up straight away does not mean not enough are being due to lack of incentive, it just means that they are very very useful items that are used by both life-skillers and PvPers. The prices reflect the rarity of the item and the difficult to obtain said item, not the fact that it sells out very quickly. 

How is the market a mess though, because an item that I could have gathered myself in minutes sells out very quickly? The marketplace would be a mess if usable scantling were locked behind a skill wall or only open to certain professions. The fact is, pre-orders for items like logs and scantling are there for the lazy players, or those who spent hours upon hours gathering and were tired. A marketplace can't be broken when the raw material is easily attainable by every single user in the game, whether they're level 1 or level 60. 

Are you trolling? The demand of an item should increase its price. If an item is easy to obtain, in a free market, it would even out. And if it were "Too Pricey" no one would buy and it would lower back down. Right now, its happening through pre-orders. People are spending tens of millions on these items because they can't buy them any other way. With a maximum of 2 logs per tree, you are looking at around 3600 trees (Although lets be honest, it'll end up being more due to 1 procs and processing procs).

The new boat would reflect these resources until it wasn't in the forefront of the playerbase and then mats would lower again. This would allow for players to actually make money from gathering and would allow players to buy the item because actual supply would exist. And I can hear you guys now saying it would be too expensive for people at that point, but lets be honest, its super -----ing expensive now. Preorders for logs and log products are nearly 100-300k PER item. That's insane. If the market allowed for more players to make money, they would sell and then more items would exist and that price would stabilize.

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11 million units of logs have been sold, in what world are you claiming that not enough are being sold? Just because they are bought up straight away does not mean not enough are being due to lack of incentive, it just means that they are very very useful items that are used by both life-skillers and PvPers. The prices reflect the rarity of the item and the difficult to obtain said item, not the fact that it sells out very quickly. 

If they are being bought up straight away it should encourage players to go out and chop logs for money. If logs are being instantly bought obviously it means there is no where near enough logs being sold on the market, the amount sold has nothing to do with it, the amount currently on the market matters. I agree that logs should not skyrocket to ridiculous prices because they're stupid easy to obtain BUT in a free market that wouldn't happen, prices would stabilize.

How is the market a mess though, because an item that I could have gathered myself in minutes sells out very quickly? The marketplace would be a mess if usable scantling were locked behind a skill wall or only open to certain professions. The fact is, pre-orders for items like logs and scantling are there for the lazy players, or those who spent hours upon hours gathering and were tired. A marketplace can't be broken when the raw material is easily attainable by every single user in the game, whether they're level 1 or level 60. 

-No the market is a mess when literally one of the easiest items in the game costs 300k silver. The game itself would be a mess if anything on the market were limited or locked behind a skill/pay wall

-A raw material that you just said yourself is easy to obtain at any point in the game should be readily available in a marketplace due to how easy it is to obtain. You've contradicted yourself here a couple times already, if these items are really highly demanded and super easy to obtain, tell me why someone shouldn't be able to go out and gather them for decent money.

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If the market allowed for more players to make money, they would sell and then more items would exist and that price would stabilize.

Except this would never happen, what would happen is that the prices of logs would rise to match the current pre-order price. Instead of people being limited to 500 items per pre-order, they would be able to buy every item at the inflated price and the average player would never be able to purchase the item. With the current system items pass through the pre-order and appear on the marketplace which allows the average user to acquire them. With the system you're proposing the average user has NO WAY of every buying those items off the marketplace. Let's also not forget that your proposed system would affect every item, including rare boss items. 

With the current system if a +13 Kzarka turned up on the marketplace then every player who bids has a chance at the item at the price the system sets it at. With your proposed system what's to stop a rich player from buying up every Kzarka that appears and then re-listing them at double or triple their price after a few days when the price has adjusted? 

A free market may sounds lovely on paper, but it will NEVER work in a way that doesn't favour the richest.

If they are being bought up straight away it should encourage players to go out and chop logs for money. If logs are being instantly bought obviously it means there is no where near enough logs being sold on the market, the amount sold has nothing to do with it, the amount currently on the market matters.

There have been 78 million pieces of copper ore that have been sold on the marketplace, there are currently 0 pieces on the market right now and at times there are 22k sitting there. BDO's market fluctuates too much for the free market to work in a way that won't be abused. Let's say the prices of logs did sky rocket to meet the supposed demand, the only people who will benefit are the ones who have a lot of silver or a large amount of logs in storage' not the average player. 

I agree that logs should not skyrocket to ridiculous prices because they're stupid easy to obtain BUT in a free market that wouldn't happen, prices would stabilize.

Prices would never stabilise, because players with large amounts of silver would be able to control the supply instantly. 

-No the market is a mess when literally one of the easiest items in the game costs 300k silver. The game itself would be a mess if anything on the market were limited or locked behind a skill/pay wall

It doesn't cost 300k silver, it's what a lazy person is willing to pay to finish their boat quickly. If it cost 300k then ANY time someone wanted to purchase the item it would cost them this much, not the 2.5k it currently is whenever logs turn up.

-A raw material that you just said yourself is easy to obtain at any point in the game should be readily available in a marketplace due to how easy it is to obtain. You've contradicted yourself here a couple times already, if these items are really highly demanded and super easy to obtain, tell me why someone shouldn't be able to go out and gather them for decent money.

A raw material that, whilst very easy to obtain, is used in the creation of over 100 items. Why would a person sell logs, even if the price did rise, when they can keep them and process them or craft them into more useful items. The fact that millions have sold show that there is a steady supply and the fact that they sell quickly shows that they are also in high demand. Prices could go up to 5 million per log and I could guarantee that we'd be in the same situation, because after all things like furniture and Cooking utensils would HAVE to rise in price to match this increase. 

Truthfully, the only people demanding or asking for a change to the market prices (for raw materials anyway) are those who don't know how to play the game and craft. :) 

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Except this would never happen, what would happen is that the prices of logs would rise to match the current pre-order price. Instead of people being limited to 500 items per pre-order, they would be able to buy every item at the inflated price and the average player would never be able to purchase the item. With the current system items pass through the pre-order and appear on the marketplace which allows the average user to acquire them. With the system you're proposing the average user has NO WAY of every buying those items off the marketplace. Let's also not forget that your proposed system would affect every item, including rare boss items. 

With the current system if a +13 Kzarka turned up on the marketplace then every player who bids has a chance at the item at the price the system sets it at. With your proposed system what's to stop a rich player from buying up every Kzarka that appears and then re-listing them at double or triple their price after a few days when the price has adjusted? 

A free market may sounds lovely on paper, but it will NEVER work in a way that doesn't favour the richest.

There have been 78 million pieces of copper ore that have been sold on the marketplace, there are currently 0 pieces on the market right now and at times there are 22k sitting there. BDO's market fluctuates too much for the free market to work in a way that won't be abused. Let's say the prices of logs did sky rocket to meet the supposed demand, the only people who will benefit are the ones who have a lot of silver or a large amount of logs in storage' not the average player. 

Prices would never stabilise, because players with large amounts of silver would be able to control the supply instantly. 

It doesn't cost 300k silver, it's what a lazy person is willing to pay to finish their boat quickly. If it cost 300k then ANY time someone wanted to purchase the item it would cost them this much, not the 2.5k it currently is whenever logs turn up.

A raw material that, whilst very easy to obtain, is used in the creation of over 100 items. Why would a person sell logs, even if the price did rise, when they can keep them and process them or craft them into more useful items. The fact that millions have sold show that there is a steady supply and the fact that they sell quickly shows that they are also in high demand. Prices could go up to 5 million per log and I could guarantee that we'd be in the same situation, because after all things like furniture and Cooking utensils would HAVE to rise in price to match this increase. 

Truthfully, the only people demanding or asking for a change to the market prices (for raw materials anyway) are those who don't know how to play the game and craft. :) 

I don't think you understand. Right now, no one is making money on logs. 800ish silver is nothing. Preorders don't get sent to the seller, it gets dropped into the void. No one can afford these items already. So how would giving that preorder money to the seller (In the form of a free market) change anything in your argument? What would change though is the supply. As for your thoughts on a +13 Kzarka, no one will pay that price and if a cheaper one comes up, then people will vote with their silver.

As for it "NEVER" working, plenty of MMOs have free markets and they are perfectly fine. In fact, its possible to buy items off their markets perfectly fine.

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There have been 78 million pieces of copper ore that have been sold on the marketplace, there are currently 0 pieces on the market right now and at times there are 22k sitting there. BDO's market fluctuates too much for the free market to work in a way that won't be abused. Let's say the prices of logs did sky rocket to meet the supposed demand, the only people who will benefit are the ones who have a lot of silver or a large amount of logs in storage' not the average player. 

Fluctuation in a market is a naturally occurring event, that doesn't mean huge changes constantly over night though, which in a decent sized economy doesn't happen. Right now neither the poor or the rich are benefiting from this system, buyer and seller get screwed either way.

 

Prices would never stabilise, because players with large amounts of silver would be able to control the supply instantly. 

Your right! Prices do change constantly! It's natural, and no a single player in a game has the ability to instantly control a market, especially the larger markets like logs! That's a really easy way to lose money.

 

It doesn't cost 300k silver, it's what a lazy person is willing to pay to finish their boat quickly. If it cost 300k then ANY time someone wanted to purchase the item it would cost them this much, not the 2.5k it currently is whenever logs turn up.

 Hmmmmmmmmm costs more than 300k silver to buy counting pre order. Sureeeeee seems like that's what it costs, as I sure as hell couldn't buy a log for 800 silver :) Also a market doesn't care whether you're lazy or productive, it cares  about how much money you have.

A raw material that, whilst very easy to obtain, is used in the creation of over 100 items. Why would a person sell logs, even if the price did rise, when they can keep them and process them or craft them into more useful items. The fact that millions have sold show that there is a steady supply and the fact that they sell quickly shows that they are also in high demand. Prices could go up to 5 million per log and I could guarantee that we'd be in the same situation, because after all things like furniture and Cooking utensils would HAVE to rise in price to match this increase. 

Truthfully, the only people demanding or asking for a change to the market prices (for raw materials anyway) are those who don't know how to play the game and craft. :) 

Yet again, if a market is completely devoid of a material there is definitely not a steady supply of it. And no we wouldn't want prices to go up to 5 million per log, that's as bad as logs being absurdly cheap :) 

Truthfully, the only people demanding or asking for a change to the market prices (for raw materials anyway) are those who don't know how to play the game and craft. :) 

Yet again I have to say that It's too late to change bdo to a free market, it would be catastrophic to go from a badly controlled market to a free one overnight. Truthfully anyone who can't see the flaws in a controlled market like this is blind :) 

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Couple things

1. if your looking to buy crafted items there's no guarantee they'll even b3 available, tge only sure way of getting them is to make them yourself 

2  yes mats sell for more then crafted items but often times I've found tge crafted items sell MUCH faster then the mats

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I never said that's how much it costs to MAKE

Then you just admitted you were cherry picking then.   Breaking the TOS of the forums to attack everyone who disagrees with you is not an argument either 

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The math doesn't lie

I make MORE money selling the materials than crafting the item and selling it

 

I've had these discussions before where people don't use their brain and think that if you craft the items with worker collected resources, that it's a profit

That's just a fallacy because you're losing out on money and time of your worker than if you just sell the collected resources

 

I mean just look at the math, it costs 138k silver in materials to craft, if you DONT craft and sell the materials you get 138k - 35% tax

IF you do craft you only get 108k silver - 35% tax

 

Now I'm sure you're capable of addition and subtraction to see that you get 30k more silver selling the materials + you have additional worker who isn't wasted crafting items which yields more resources so more profit

This is NOT how an economy should function

Yeah but you do it wrong. You have the option to get a lucky axe through crafting. This axe you can sell at near 500k at marketplace. So you have 360k silver on top of youre sold materials for one axe.

Use a lucky master human worker and you are fine. But to sell your lucky axe from crafting is just stupid because you are get so much more materials and shards if you use the lucky axe instead of normal yellow one. In silver... you get nearly 2 millions more with lucky axes average . This are millions on top as simply sell your materials..

 

but if you only want to craft anything useful to sell..

craft flax baskets or other furnitures...✌ 

 

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Posted (edited)

Taking ingredients and crafting something shouldn't automatically guarantee profit from every craft. Forcing that would take the challenge out of it.

You're still not acknowledging the key fact: If you use a high-luck worker, the overall value of items crafted is higher than the value of the ingredients when making gathering tools. Yes, the non-lucky tools don't sell for more than the ingredients used to make them, but you cannot look at that single item and say "Broken lol", because that's dumb.

It's all about the averages. You make money crafting if you have a worker with high enough luck and good skills.

So, ArgleBlargle, refute that. Prove the above wrong or admit you're mistaken, please. 

This is utterly ignoring the reduction in cost gathering mats yourself adds. The prices for tools are deliberately calculated so that you get a profit crafting them only with a high luck worker with the right skills. This is intentional because it adds challenge and complexity to crafting. You have to invest time and effort in getting the best worker for the job to turn a profit reliably. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

You are not meant to be able to mindlessly smash ingredients together and make profit. 

Got it yet?

Making lucky gathering tools for profit is ridiculous. No super lucky worker will save you. In the long run you will make lot more for just selling mats.
There are products worth to make & sell but surely not gathering tools. I craft gathering tools for my needs only. End of story.

Edited by mate

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11 million units of logs have been sold, in what world are you claiming that not enough are being sold? Just because they are bought up straight away does not mean not enough are being due to lack of incentive

Thats exactly what it means...

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I don't think you understand. Right now, no one is making money on logs. 800ish silver is nothing. Preorders don't get sent to the seller, it gets dropped into the void. No one can afford these items already. So how would giving that preorder money to the seller (In the form of a free market) change anything in your argument?

Because whilst the average user who sells the 15-30 logs they have would suddenly make money, the people who will make a huge profit are the ones who have thousands of logs stored up or that are happy going on a 3 hour chopping frenzy every day. Pre-orders may be going to the richest person, however the seller doesn't receive that amount so in a sense it acts like a small gold sink. Soon as you bump up the prices or let players determine prices then you suddenly have a market that is governed by the richest players meaning the average player suffers. You seem to think that all that will happen is that the price of logs would rise and it would end there, but let's not forget things like usable scantling, furniture, cooking utensils etc. they would all have to rise in price accordingly. As cooking/alchemy utensil prices rise then so would the products that they are made on. Once these prices rise then Kakao will have to change the money earned from grinding and lifeskills to match this inflation so that people can still afford them 

It may seem harmless to allow prices for simple items to rise, but you need to think of the consequences. 

What would change though is the supply. As for your thoughts on a +13 Kzarka, no one will pay that price and if a cheaper one comes up, then people will vote with their silver.
As for it "NEVER" working, plenty of MMOs have free markets and they are perfectly fine. In fact, its possible to buy items off their markets perfectly fine.

Please give me an example of a game with a free market (that means player set prices and no input from the publisher) where the economy isn't ruled by the rich and the average player has the SAME chance as rich players. Free market economies don't work in MMOs because they favour the rich, just like in the real world. 

Fluctuation in a market is a naturally occurring event, that doesn't mean huge changes constantly over night though, which in a decent sized economy doesn't happen. Right now neither the poor or the rich are benefiting from this system, buyer and seller get screwed either way.

In what way is anyone being screwed in the current economy? Want logs? Go gather them. Don't want to gather them? Pay for your laziness. BDO is one of the few games that doesn't prevent players from gathering everything themselves, you can gather pretty much any item in this game if you're a level 1 character. 

Your right! Prices do change constantly! It's natural, and no a single player in a game has the ability to instantly control a market, especially the larger markets like logs! That's a really easy way to lose money.

Please explain to me how a single player can control the log market? By setting high pre-orders? Because he's then limited to only 500 logs and some items still slip through the pre-order. I've even tried cornering the coral market and I still have to check the marketplace regularly to buy up the coral that gets listed, in fact I get most of my coral from buying directly rather than through pre-orders. 

Controlling the market also implies that I set the prices to sell the items, BDO's market makes it close to impossible to buy everything up and then re-sell it for profit. 

 Hmmmmmmmmm costs more than 300k silver to buy counting pre order. Sureeeeee seems like that's what it costs, as I sure as hell couldn't buy a log for 800 silver :) Also a market doesn't care whether you're lazy or productive, it cares  about how much money you have.

I'm guessing you don't actually play this game as you don't seem to know how the marketplace works. You are aware that not every item goes through pre-orders, right? If the price of logs were actually 300k then when they went up on marketplace that's the price they would be listed for. The market does care whether you're lazy as that's what dictates the price. I could camp the marketplace and buy logs when they appear for 2.5k, or I can set a pre-order for 5k, or 10k, or 5.2 billion silver.

Yet again, if a market is completely devoid of a material there is definitely not a steady supply of it. And no we wouldn't want prices to go up to 5 million per log, that's as bad as logs being absurdly cheap :) 

Yet again I have to say that It's too late to change bdo to a free market, it would be catastrophic to go from a badly controlled market to a free one overnight.

Right, I've finally understood your point. You're saying that because BDO's market treats every equally and that because BDO allows everyone to gather whatever they need and doesn't lock them behind walls it's badly controlled. What you're saying is that we should have a game like Tera that prevents you from maxing out every lifeskills and forces you to choose only 1. Or are you saying we should have a game like FF14 that forces you to level up each profession in other to acquire items rather than offering them from level 1. 

You're right, BDO sure does have a terrible market; it would be much better to have a free market that can be controlled by one player. :) 

Truthfully anyone who can't see the flaws in a controlled market like this is blind :) 

Please don't throw a childish tantrum because someone doesn't agree with you. I've remained civil, but if you're going to call people blind because they don't agree with you then you don't know how to argue. :) 

Thats exactly what it means...

Low supply means that not enough of the items are being sold, items like butter and cream which have less than 1 million items sold. Is copper ore in short supply? After all right now there's none on the market yet over 80 million units have been sold. 

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In what way is anyone being screwed in the current economy? Want logs? Go gather them. Don't want to gather them? Pay for your laziness. BDO is one of the few games that doesn't prevent players from gathering everything themselves, you can gather pretty much any item in this game if you're a level 1 character. 

Want to buy some logs? Haha jokes on you an easily available resource isn't available on the market!

 

Low supply means that not enough of the items are being sold, items like butter and cream which have less than 1 million items sold. Is copper ore in short supply? After all right now there's none on the market yet over 80 million units have been sold. 

Low supply means there isnt enough of a certain item supplied to the market to satisfy the demand. 

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp

Free market economies don't work in MMOs because they favour the rich, just like in the real world. 

Please explain to me how a single player can control the log market? By setting high pre-orders? Because he's then limited to only 500 logs and some items still slip through the pre-order. I've even tried cornering the coral market and I still have to check the marketplace regularly to buy up the coral that gets listed, in fact I get most of my coral from buying directly rather than through pre-orders. 

I find it really ironic that you hate rich players in a free market, but don't mind only the richest benefitting from a controlled market like bdo (preorders). And no single player does control the bdo market, but rather only the wealthy can benefit from it.

Please don't throw a childish tantrum because someone doesn't agree with you. I've remained civil, but if you're going to call people blind because they don't agree with you then you don't know how to argue. :) 

 

Truthfully, the only people demanding or asking for a change to the market prices (for raw materials anyway) are those who don't know how to play the game and craft. :) 

Passive aggressive smiley faces are the worst.

You ever play archeage? I'd just like to find a game we could both use as an example.

 

Anyhow im currently on my phone again in class and responding is rather hard as it takes ages to type out, with a lot of errors as well. So do you think we could try a vocal debate over discord or another voip because obviously neither of us are making any progress here.

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Want to buy some logs? Haha jokes on you an easily available resource isn't available on the market!

It couldn't POSSIBLY be because it's a much in demand item that is needed by both lifeskillers and PvPers? No no, not at all.If a player is in desperate need for logs, then they can buy an axe and go gather it themselves, you make it seem like the only sustainable way to acquire logs is via the marketplace when the average guild quest will net 400-500 for the player. 

Low supply means there isnt enough of a certain item supplied to the market to satisfy the demand. 

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp

A low supply means that not enough are posted, not that there aren't enough when you search the marketplace. If there was a low supply of logs then we wouldn't seen over 11 million being sold. 

I find it really ironic that you hate rich players in a free market, but don't mind only the richest benefitting from a controlled market like bdo (preorders). And no single player does control the bdo market, but rather only the wealthy can benefit from it.

Except BDO is unique in that it doesn't prevent a level 1 player from acquiring any type of raw good. Pre-orders, when talking about crafting items and raw ingredients, are a means for the lazy to acquire goods and not necessarily the rich. To use coral as an example, all you need is hoe and that's it, you don't even need a ship as there's a spot right next to Epheria. Jump into the sea, keep diving down and harvesting the coral until you have enough for your crafting needs. All the person in my screenshot has to do is to jump into the sea and they won't have to deal with my coral pre-orders. Pre-orders allow player like myself the luxury of not having to gather, they don't prevent other players from gathering their own coral.

Passive aggressive smiley faces are the worst.

:) 

Anyhow im currently on my phone again in class and responding is rather hard as it takes ages to type out, with a lot of errors as well. So do you think we could try a vocal debate over discord or another voip because obviously neither of us are making any progress here.

You don't need to keep typing this, I'm in no rush for your answers. When you want to reply, then reply. 

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Posted (edited)

Hm...Well, to my experience it's mainly what you choose to craft. Popular items like tools will only result in loss if you plan on making silver with it, craft them with the mindset that it's for yourself. I usually craft Shining tools for myself, if I get Lucky I keep it and sell the rest to fund more mats to craft Shining Tools. But I've been actually making a profit while leveling my alchemy crafting other items that are necessities. Not to mention the extra materials I crafted to make that item due to higher level alchemy enabling you to get more product per creation. That also saved me quite an amount of silver and also maximize my earning since I am able to use the extra mats I earned to make even more items than I planned.

I usually flood the market with the items I craft and make a profit out of them. I also put effort into gathering the basic raw materials myself as I need black shards, but the profit is small (4m~5m total sales from that particular item) but worth the trouble as it helps me earn Shining Powders and level my life skills.

EDIT: But to make profit, I also have to depend on the rarer mats that I need from the marketplace.

Edited by Aokami

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