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The bidding system needs a failstack mechanic

74 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

You do realize this CAN NOT ACTUALLY WORK, right? Do you even math, bro?

If there are 723 players bidding on the same item, there's no way some players can have a +30% win chance or something, gained from failstacks. The chances, combined, from all the players, have to be 100.

Also, people would just bid on random, cheap crap, and hope they'd lose the bid, just to gain failstacks. Which would lead to an even more unbalanced economy.

It only takes a very tiny amount of thought to see the way around this. 

1. 723 people bid. 722 people lose, so 722 people gain 1 failstack. Their odds of winning are, for now, equal.

2. Later, 850 peoople bid on the next listing of the previous item. 500 of the original 722 are off grinding or offline now, meaning 222 people have 1 failstack more than the 628 people that just showed up that do not have a stack yet. Or maybe someone just showed up that has 20 stacks, giving him substantially increased odds of winning. If or when he wins, he's officially behind everyone else in line now. Over the course of a week, stacks grow, people win things and lose their stack, and as you spend more time bidding at varying hours, your odds of beating random bidder  #11,642 that just decided to bid on that item you've been bidding on for 6 weeks straight will be greatly increased, although he could still win, because RNG. Just like you could PEN off 0 fail stacks. It's not likely, but possible.

But I can see where you'd have a problem with this. Someone just built failstacks bidding on memory fragments and now they're going to use all those unlikely fails to win Muskans. Easy solution:

3. Make the failstack system work the same way preorders work - you can designate a limited number of items to build stacks on (2 slots only for instance). This would create a divide in market priority. Using the pearl market as an example, say you have people that want value packs, a specific costume, and a pet. Those people are still likely going to bid on every single costume that pops up that they have a mild interest in, even if it isn't their highest priority. But if you limit where you can build stacks? They'll focus on those items, and the people that want something else more will have a higher chance of getting what they want. If they're bidding on 2 pearl market items, they have no failstack slot available for Dandelion. They can bid on it, but the people stacking there will most likely beat them in the RNG roll (well, this is BDO so maybe not).

If you really want to control things, make it so that you can only place one bid at a time. So when you see 9 value packs, a pet and the new DK costume go up all at once, you pick one item of the 10, and you build a failstack. Under this system, failstacks become even more relevant, because everyone has to decide what to prioritize, rather than everyone competing on everything in a massive FFA RNG fest. 

4.  Once a fail stack slot is used, it's locked for 7 days. So bots can use fail stacks to win precisely 2 items per week in theory, rather than the endless amount people suggest via scripts.  

 

There are all sorts of ways to go about preventing just building stacks on cheap items to buy the others. It'd be extremely easy in fact. Feel free to explain why I'm completely wrong.

Edited by Xialoh

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I understand that the idea is coming with a good intention.

But just NO.

F# thoses RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG

 

you want solve the "lack of supply" ? then thoses guys should correctly balance the in game way to get [whatever] so have a decent supply on the market. THAT would be better.

 

 

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Posted

I understand that the idea is coming with a good intention.

But just NO.

F# thoses RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG

 

you want solve the "lack of supply" ? then thoses guys should correctly balance the in game way to get [whatever] so have a decent supply on the market. THAT would be better.

What are you even saying? It would be LESS RNG. It's currently RNGception with literally no way out. Failstacks improve that situation if nothing else.

It's not detrimental, even if it isn't perfect. Pearl Abyss is never going to give you perfect.

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Posted (edited)

What are you even saying? It would be LESS RNG. It's currently RNGception with literally no way out. Failstacks improve that situation if nothing else.

It's not detrimental, even if it isn't perfect. Pearl Abyss is never going to give you perfect.

It would be less RNG if you balance the game to have a decent supply flow, so less fake bidding issue.

 

I dont see the need to add RNG on top on RNG.

Not saying, you would have ppl spending their days to try get "impossible item to get" just to build their "fail stack" and use them for the item they might really want. => if would have as effect to lower, for everyone, the chance to get item, since you would have sh#t load of ppl building their "market fail stack"

 

Honestly, as i said, the idea come with good intention, but that's totaly f#ed up just very hard.

Edited by woots

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Posted

Bad idea.

Scripts are already dominating the market, all those "buy 1 item from stack" are obviously click macros, leaving lots of stacks open for "spam after bid phase ended" which are won by other bots/macros too.

At least now everyone has the same chance. If script kiddies let their macros run all night and gather "market failstacks" like crazy - no thanks.

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It would cut off new players from many items on the marketplace...

Though after trying more you should be eventualy rewarded but idk if it is good idea to limit newbies in this way...

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Posted (edited)

It would be less RNG if you balance the game to have a decent supply flow, so less gake bidding issue.

 

I dont see the need to add RNG on top on RNG.

Not saying, you would have ppl spending their days to try get "impossible item to get" just to build their "fail stack" and use them for the item they might really want.

 

Honestly, as i said, the idea come with good intention, but that's totaly f#ed up just hard.

I don't think you understand. Right now when you bid on a popular item, your chances of winning are ridiculously low. Call it 1% for example, since I don't know the population or number of bidders. Right now the system will choose one person to win at random. So you're going up against an RNG wall that favors you not at all, as low as 1% chance of success or lower. If we add fail stacks upon bidding - which people are already doing right now for hours on end with no benefit gained - then the next time you bid your 1% goes up. Depending on your competition and how the system gets implemented, you could hypothetically get yourself a 99% success chance on items with few bidders (like a TET ogre ring for example..). 

That is less mind breaking RNG. It's still RNG, but higher odds in a system of RNG are not a bad thing. It's a favorable implementation. 

And don't get me wrong, I would prefer higher supply, and less RNG in the entire game. I despise this game and all of its RNG, and I despise fail stacks. That doesn't change the fact that in this scenario, fail stacks are the lesser evil. The thing is, if supply were greater, there would be less desperation to spend money. Every little thing driving people up a wall in this game is designed to be frustrating so that they spend money to alleviate the pressure.

This is why I ask for something like fail stacks, a mechanism PA are obviously already amenable to, rather than improvements to this system of extreme scarcity. That obviously needs fixing too - I just don't believe they'll do it unless they're forced to. It's too deliberate and heavily enforced in every area of the game (i.e. horses, pearl items, gear, repairs for gear, crafting materials, absurd pricing of most things due to price locked market causing unnecessary supply shortages, etc) for me to believe otherwise.

Edited by Xialoh

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Posted (edited)

I don't think you understand.

I think you are the one not understanding that a market fail stack will even more f# up the market because you will have tons of more ppl building their "market fail" stack.

 

And how do you build fail stack ? by failing. And how to you fail ? bet for an item you will more likely never win. It will attract WAY more ppl than it already should => you will even more drop your chance to get [whatever] item.

 

So yeah cool at some point you might have enough sh#tty RNG fail stack to boost a bit your chance, but with in return you will attrack way way way more market gambler

 

whatever how you want to spin that around, that's totaly more f#ed up than the actual gambling situation.

 

You want something good ? as i said, balance the game to have decent drop rate / more handy ways to get [whatever] => more supply => less gambling => no need to add cancer RNG on top of cancer RNG on top of cancer RNG, with cancer RNG

Edited by woots

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Posted (edited)

I think you are the one not understanding that a market fail stack will even more f# up the market because you will have tons of more ppl building their "market fail" stack.

 

And how do you build fail stack ? by failing. And how to you fail ? bet for an item you will more likely never win. It will attract WAY more ppl than it already should => you will even more drop your chance to get [whatever] item.

 

So yeah cool at some point you might have enough sh#tty RNG fail stack to boost a bit your chance, but with in return you will attrack way way way more market gambler

 

whatever how you want to spin that around, that's totaly more f#ed up than the actual gambling situation

Then put in another safeguard. Not sure if you read my original explanation or not, but the solution to even that is simple. All you have to do is lock the fail stack slot for a set duration once it's used. Say you get 2 failstack slots. Once you win one item, that stack slot is locked for a week. You can continue your stack on one more item, and only one more item, for the next 7 days. The result is that bots will get to win as many as 2 items in a given week off of the failstacking system, and no more. It could even be that winning an item with a failstack decreases your odds of winning it again while the stack is on cooldown, which would prevent bots from sniping dozens of things they don't need. The idea here is that when you want an item, you can prioritize it and get it, and then work on something else another time. Once your stack is gone, it goes on cooldown and you get diminished odds to win it again. Suddenly bots can no longer take every value pack in existence, or everything else. They can build their odds on two items, win them possibly, and that's that for the week where the fail stack system is concerned. 

It pretty much just creates a priority queue based on your apparent interest, indicated through bids.

In the market, someone will always win. Whether that's the high failstack guy or some random, it's irrelevant. I bid for a value pack for over a month before I won one, spending hours at the market trying throughout the week and on sundays. So understand that I have no love for the current RNG system. I propose a system where if I bid for that long, my odds would increase, while at the same time [some]other people would be incentivized to bid on things more important to them than the item that I want, because they want something else more. Force a divide in the market and everyone is happier.

It would work, it would be an improvement. I have no illusions about you coming to believe that at this point though. #Opinions.

Edited by Xialoh

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Posted (edited)

 -snip-

 

 

 

whatever how you want to spin that around, that's totaly more f#ed up than the actual gambling situation.

 

You want something good ? as i said, balance the game to have decent drop rate / more handy ways to get [whatever] => more supply => less gambling => no need to add cancer RNG on top of cancer RNG on top of cancer RNG, with cancer RNG

 

And its even more f#ed up because, you are coming up with a system to make RNG a bit less worse, when they could very simply, solve that by tweaking the base game and most of the cancer RNG drop rate.

it would be also way better just for the sack of the game itself.

 

At some point, even if that's a "in game" system, its not that different from creating RNG annoyance to promote "cash shop fix" to cut of thoses crap.

Edited by woots

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its not good solution, cause of two reasons:

First it will promote usking bots to bid when you sleep/are afk even further... Dont be delusional, bots are still here... And even though they dont have bigger chance to get item, then rest players- they still can bid on every item registered when you sleep or are afk which gives them more chances to get item... With faisltack system a lot ppl will rush to buy marketplace bot...

Second it will increase number of ppl who bid on a lot of items, just to gain failstacks... A lot ppl will just bid on items with really low chance to get just to gain failstacks... Ppl will start to bid every singl pearl item registerted on Mp or every single sharp/hard shard... You play sorc and not need tamer/zerk/ranger/wiz outfit? Who cares, bid!! You need only faisltacks from them... And if you successfully buy any of that outfits, who cares its just 25m!! You can resell it... Number of ppl bidding on every outfit on Mp will increase by a lot- good luck trying to buy any on Mp...

We need real solution, not sth half assed that is easly exploitable... But we will never get any, cause simple PA not care and Kakao have no choice, but to accept everything PA decide to give us or not...

 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

 

And its even more f#ed up because, you are coming up with a system to make RNG a bit less worse, when they could very simply, solve that by tweaking the base game and most of the cancer RNG drop rate.

it would be also way better just for the sack of the game itself.

 

At some point, even if that's a "in game" system, its not that different from creating RNG annoyance to promote "cash shop fix" to cut of thoses crap.

Ok. You let me know when you get Pearl Abyss to drastically increase the supply and price of everything so that we can all stop wasting so much time and effort.

I'll be waiting over here by the auction girl, putting in bid #394,286 for this thing. Might get it this time. Or not? Maybe never? Who knows really.

Edited by Xialoh

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Posted (edited)

Ok. You let me know when you get Pearl Abyss to drastically increase the supply and price of everything so that we can all stop wasting so much time and effort.

I'll be waiting over here by the auction girl, putting in bid #394,286 for this thing. Might get it this time. Or not? Maybe never? Who knows really.

So far, that's a discussion, PA will neither bother with a such system. ( considering that thread would ever be reported to the KR head quarter xD )

Even if you base idea isnt necessary bad, its still a sh#tty way to compensate the cancer gambling, you do release that, right ? ( but sure, it can be better than nothing ) While if you also hate that much that gambling sh"t there is only one solution = tweak the base game itself, to in the end calm down that RNG for everyone.

 

When you spoke about getting cash shop item. thoses guys didnt came up with more handy system because it "work as intended"

imho, thoses guys only care about seeing CS item seller get their silver. And (imho) the way its made its just to frustrate the potential buyer, so maybe have them in the end use the cash shop themself.  Frustrating them from having jack sh#t WHILE seeing more & more ppl around having outfit - using value pack boost. ( and so limit at much as they can the cash shop item variety accessibility for "free"" user )

Before the CS item on the market, you was barely seeing ppl with cash shop outfit around = in the end, you would care much, now, you have a LOT of cash shop outfit directly in game => it can even more make you want to have thoses, since the base game only provide ugly armor, and utter poor customization ability.

 

Honestly, on a buisiness point of view, that's smart, very sneaky, but smart.

 

Otherwise they would have come with a way way way more handy solution ( like with a direct pearl -> silver "market ), or for the outfit sell coupon ( instead of the outfit itself ) to have ppl choose what they exactly want.. etc etc.

Or have a REAL loyalty reward ( like convert every month XXXX loyalty to pearl..) etc

Edited by woots

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It's all free.....go chop it....In one day i got 15% of the logs I needed without trying hard.....If you're having that much trouble you either have 1)Low gathering skills. 2)Low energy. Go work on one or the other. All the other material is obtainable through either workers or grinding. 
Standardized timber - go chop so easy.
Steel - so cheap to buy literally 1 hour of grinding or get all your workers on iron and coal....like we don't have any of those right.
Pine plywood - You kidding? Go chop manshas while farming ogres and get workers on it, there are 2 nodes.
Flax.....This is just a joke over night processing while chopping wood.


You're making it sound like this is HARD. The hardest part about his is the logs, which takes dedication in chopping wood for about a week and the actual time limit restraint per day. You have alts? use their 200 energy get energy pots, buy energy pots it'll make it go faster. I'm not going to help anymore past this if you can't do it yourself you don't deserve it.

Yes they exist, but you cant still beat them. They are still based on RNG , the only difference is they bid on ALL items where when you go afk they keep bidding and you cant and they have a better % of getting it cause of that. You can still beat bots. I did on the old marketplace system.

go chop a dandelion mate. good bait anyhow. Because people are not doing karanda everyday for months getting nothing then I get a drop from 1 hit with lvl 30 alt. Git gud. 

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Posted (edited)

 

2. Later, 850 peoople bid on the next listing of the previous item. 500 of the original 722 are off grinding or offline now, meaning 222 people have 1 failstack more than the 628 people that just showed up that do not have a stack yet. Or maybe someone just showed up that has 20 stacks, giving him substantially increased odds of winning. If or when he wins, he's officially behind everyone else in line now. Over the course of a week, stacks grow, people win things and lose their stack, and as you spend more time bidding at varying hours, your odds of beating random bidder  #11,642 that just decided to bid on that item you've been bidding on for 6 weeks straight will be greatly increased, although he could still win, because RNG. Just like you could PEN off 0 fail stacks. It's not likely, but possible.

 

I thought of this as well, but then, this method of stacking wouldn't be that useful. You have 11,642 bidders. One of them has 1 chance in 11642. You have a fail stack of 36, for example, so you have a chance of 36 out of 11642. While that chance is 36 times better than some other player's, its still not that big. It's still only 0.3 % chance to win, instead of 0.0085% or something. Don't get me wrong, it's still something, but i don't think it's gonna be enough to get rid of players' frustration over the current marketplace issues.

Edited by ayrton2388

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Posted (edited)

So far, that's a discussion, PA will neither bother with a such system. ( considering that thread would ever be reported to the KR head quarter xD )

Even if you base idea isnt necessary bad, its still a sh#tty way to compensate the cancer gambling, you do release that, right ? While if you also hate that much that gambling sh"t there is only one solution = tweak the base game itself, to in the end calm down that RNG for everyone.

 

When you spoke about getting cash shop item. thoses guys didnt came up with more handy system because it "work as intended"

imho, thoses guys only care about seeing CS item seller get their silver, and (imho) the way its made its just to frustrate the potential buyer, so maybe have them in the end use the cash shop themself, frustrated from having jack sh#t AND seeing more & more ppl around having outfit - using value pack boost. ( and so limit at much as they can the cash shop accessibility for "free"" user.

Before the CS item on the market, you was barely seeing ppl with cash shop outfit around = in the end, you would care much, now, you have a LOT of cash shop outfit directly in game => it can even more make you want to have thoses, since the base game only provide just ugly armor.

 

Honestly, on a buisiness point of view, that's smart, very sneaky, but smart.

 

Otherwise they would have come with a way way way more handy solution ( like with a direct pearl -> silver "market ), or for the outfit sell coupon ( instead of the outfit itself ) to have ppl choose what they exactly want.. etc etc.

Or have a REAL loyalty reward ( like convert every month XXXX loyalty to pearl..) etc

The problem here is that I agree with everything you're saying. You recognize that the system sucks and is designed to screw people over until they spend money out of desperation. You recognize that it's intentional. You recognize that what I'm asking for is just a way to make the system more bearable. Obviously if they've made everything suck on purpose, they aren't going to just make things better. My suggestion wouldn't actually change the supply, but it would change the distribution of supply so that people that want things are likely to, eventually, get what they want. Or at least be allowed to believe they probably will.

You know they aren't just going to improve the game, which is why I ask only for a small fix. I'm asking for a some antiseptic and a bandage. You're asking for replacement heart surgery. One of these things isn't going to happen, even if we both want it and know the game needs it.

 

I thought of this as well, but then, this method of stacking wouldn't be that useful. You have 11,642 bidders. One of them has 1 chance in 11642. You have a fail stack of 36, for example, so you have a chance of 36 out of 11642. While that chance is 36 times better than some other player's, its still not that big. It's still only 0.003 % chance to win, instead of 0.000085% or something. Don't get me wrong, it's still something, but i don't think it's gonna be enough to get rid of players' frustration over the current marketplace issues.

Those numbers will change a lot over time. Each of those 11,642 bidders will have a different stack amount. The winners will be out of the stack game and reset to 0 - for an entire week if point #4 were implemented. The people bidding will shift around as well as they sleep/grind/work/go to eat/etc.. The system becomes a line in which you inevitably reach the front of it sooner or later, and especially if you bid often at varying hours. Eventually you will be the one at the front if you want it badly enough, even if someone else with a higher stack exists, but isn't bidding at the time.

And no, it definitely won't eliminate frustration. It's just that this game creates frustration deliberately. Small things like this would help to keep a person sane. Imagine how I feel after spending 6 hours bidding on value packs, knowing that in the end I gained no pack, and my chances of winning will be equally low tomorrow? Knowing thats the way every single bid I make works? It's very nearly not worth trying.

Even if my odds were miniscule, I'd be happy knowing I at least increased my odds the next day, and a sizable chunk of the population is now behind me in priority since they were out grinding while I was sitting in Velia bidding.

Edited by Xialoh

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Posted

You know they aren't just going to improve the game, which is why I ask only for a small fix. I'm asking for a some antiseptic and a bandage. You're asking for replacement heart surgery. One of these things isn't going to happen, even if we both want it and know the game needs it.

You can still post your idea in the suggestion forum, and submit it to the "do CM will ever report that in the first place" gambling xD

 

But it would still be way more usefull to have a massive amount of ppl requesting for a real change, tho.

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It's an interesting idea, although I wonder how that would work in the algorithms when people are bidding against each other with fail stacks. Also I can definitely see an opportunity to exploit this; if there's a way someone will find it.

Yup the abuse for this is strong

When they gonna ban those market bots ? YES they exist . Search the net and you find them for sale

Ban those -----ers , they ruin the entire market thing....................

Yup most of the people QQ on forums about bidding system use these bots or scrips.

its not good solution, cause of two reasons:

First it will promote usking bots to bid when you sleep/are afk even further... Dont be delusional, bots are still here... And even though they dont have bigger chance to get item, then rest players- they still can bid on every item registered when you sleep or are afk which gives them more chances to get item... With faisltack system a lot ppl will rush to buy marketplace bot...

Second it will increase number of ppl who bid on a lot of items, just to gain failstacks... A lot ppl will just bid on items with really low chance to get just to gain failstacks... Ppl will start to bid every singl pearl item registerted on Mp or every single sharp/hard shard... You play sorc and not need tamer/zerk/ranger/wiz outfit? Who cares, bid!! You need only faisltacks from them... And if you successfully buy any of that outfits, who cares its just 25m!! You can resell it... Number of ppl bidding on every outfit on Mp will increase by a lot- good luck trying to buy any on Mp...

We need real solution, not sth half assed that is easly exploitable... But we will never get any, cause simple PA not care and Kakao have no choice, but to accept everything PA decide to give us or not...

 

Yeah pretty much if there is a bot constantly bidding something eventually they will get it. They will basically outbid everyone with massive failstacks >.>

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The only way you can fix supply/demand is with a free market, and they are not willing to do that.

im not claiming the current system to be perfect, the current min/max prices could definitely do with a review. theres even some room to have the fixed prices be able to shift to a degree to market pressures.

But i heavily disagree with dropping a free market economy into this game. its a -----ing terrible outdated system in the real world it would be catastrophic for the economy of this game as it has been for all the ones its been used in, anyone remember diablo 2? dandelions taking the place of SoJ's no thanks.

this current system is a good compromise (admittedly with flaws) those that put the time in get more chance but everyone still gets at least a chance.

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Hey quick question all you people who believe bots are stealing all your bids how do these bots get around the bidding system that gives all buyers a fair chance to receive said item

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The bidding system needs to be a bidding system, not a dice roll game... if an item goes to bid, let me bid as much money as i want. Highest one gets the item...

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people hate failstacks on eqip but want it on the market? i dont get it...

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It's all free.....go chop it....In one day i got 15% of the logs I needed without trying hard.....If you're having that much trouble you either have 1)Low gathering skills. 2)Low energy. Go work on one or the other. All the other material is obtainable through either workers or grinding. 
Standardized timber - go chop so easy.
Steel - so cheap to buy literally 1 hour of grinding or get all your workers on iron and coal....like we don't have any of those right.
Pine plywood - You kidding? Go chop manshas while farming ogres and get workers on it, there are 2 nodes.
Flax.....This is just a joke over night processing while chopping wood.

I never said it's hard to get the logs, and the fact that it's easy should mean the market would be absolutely flooded with them, as a player could see that they're selling very well and go out and make some easy money chopping logs. For the record I'm not building a sailboat, and don't care about the 'difficulty' of building it, simply using it's materials as an example.

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FailFish a failstack only works on one particular item you can't build failstacks afk on memory fragments then use it on tree armor FailFish

 

also u cant buiild failstacks over night because as soon as you win, your failstack resets. and even if you build failstacks on memory fragments ove night the only thing u can use it on is memory fragments.

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Posted (edited)

Not a fan of this idea. And here's why...


It'd introduce a 'Failstack Build System' that would screw players who don't constantly sit at the MP bidding on items building stacks.

Joe user who hasn't been online in a week, or not even that.. Joe user who plays 12 hours a day but through circumstance hasn't visited the MP in a while because "he was actually out playing the game", is automatically at a disadvantage. 

This idea would only support players who'd decide to adopt a "Marketplace Trader" position, which would result in "Marketplace Traders" suddenly flooding channels with "Gift me XXXX worth of Pearl items and I'll list <insert item here>". And guess who'll win the bid for that item should it be listed? With this system in place, it'd be yet another "Marketplace Trader" who will then roll it over and do exactly the same. Rinse and repeat ad-nauseum.

It already happens with T8 horses. You'll see "Gift me XXX in pearls for this T8 horse". The horse goes on the market, the intended recipient didn't get the horse, and the new owner starts a whole new "T8 horse! XXX pearls!".

The whole concept is rotten at its core.

Edited by DenverRalphy

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