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Year 2 Mega Horse Breeding Thread

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Posted

In the land of BDO, RNG is king.

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Posted

Curious about that too....for whatever reason I never got the whole horse costume (i think i bought part on the market) and was thinking of getting the rest from the shop.  I wonder if it's worth it?

By the way, your Sharkorse avatar is neat :D

I saw it and I figured it would be appropriate for this board =P

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One trick that I would recommend that I learned from this thread (a few pages back) is swapping skills out so you have forechop available to be learned each level. Since forechop is the most commonly learned (or so they say), chances of your horse acquiring that skill is higher than, say, instant accel. I learned this when my last t8 was lvl 28, but it learned 16 skills regardless and I plan to do this with high tier horses. BTW GRATS ON YOUR HORSE!

Since there has been so much discussion about skills recently, I think it is important for new breeders to understand why veteran breeders adopted certain approaches and the long-term results from those approaches before deciding whether to use pearls. This info was a reply to another thread on the forum, but needs to be here as well:

 

The approach breeders take to using pearl items for horses has to do with how we believe they learn skills. (This post is going to be long, fair warning.) There are essentially two schools of thought:

1) Some believe that horses learn skills via a random percent chance roll when the horse levels, with basic skills being weighted with a higher percent to roll/learn.

Based on this belief, certain trainers will buy skill change coupons and trade out something basic like Fore Chop every time the horse learns it as it levels, in order to increase the total number of skills learned (because it will keep learning an "easy to get skill" that can then be traded out for something rarer). However, time and time again, these horses still learn the average number of skills. This does not appear to change their potential for total skills learned in any way. The only advantage to this approach is failstacking towards a skill you want to learn and possibly increasing the chance of the horse learning that skill naturally as it levels.

Also based on this belief, some will brand the horse or equip a costume believing that it adds a small percentage increase in the chance to roll a skill.

2) The second school of thought is that the horse is gaining skill xp every time it levels, and when it reaches the next threshold it learns a skill.

After leveling so many horses, I have come to the conclusion that number 2 is the closest to being correct, and choosing which school of thought to follow does effect how you use pearl items, which I will explain in a moment.

This is why I think there is skill xp being gained:

-The professional training clothes directly reference Skill EXP. Some will say this effects how fast you can train a skill the horse has already learned, but this is referred to as proficiency NOT skill exp in other pearl shop items. Plus, I see no difference in training skill proficiency with or without the training clothes, leading me to believe there is in fact a separate Skill EXP stat.

-Horses don't randomly learn skills. This is the biggest argument against random percent to roll. Sometimes when you are horse training you will level 2 horses one right after the other that are carbon copies of each other. They learn the same skills at the same level. I have had up to 3 horses on a wagon follow the same exact pattern of skill learning. This is the biggest revealer in my opinion of how the skill system works:

a) horses are born with a randomly assigned preset skill hierarchy
b) that means a dumb horse will be dumb, it isn't just rng
c) you can disrupt the pattern by using pearl items but not by much

3) Pearl Shop Items

For a long time, horse costumes did appear to be bugged and produced a negative effect to skill learning. Around the time that they ninja nerfed horse skill gain, it seems they also tweaked the costumes fixing that issue. However, I have found something I cannot explain while leveling horses. It seems that the overall skill gain is improved by equipping the costume AFTER the horse has hit a skill learning sticking point. On my t8s that typically happens at around 8 skills and level 12-14. Right after equipping the costume, they will start learning skills again. And testing on lower tiers seems to indicate that removing and re-equipping the costume seems to negate the effect, so I think there is still some buggy code.

Do not waste money on Skill Change coupons as a way to increase the total number of skills the horse has. It won't help. Only use them to failstack towards skills you really want and to get rid of skills you don't.

For T8s specifically, it can easily take over $100 in Skill Change coupons to get one of the rare S Skills. (I know of 2 people right off the bat this happened to, one of them is in my guild.) It seems to be cheaper to wait until the horse hits 30 and then cycle through multiple Appearance Change coupons instead, which is one of the few things that will actually give the horse more skills than it could have learned otherwise, and is the likeliest route to turning an ok t8 into a courser for t9 awakening.

 

 
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Posted

Hello there,

This has been something I have been wondering about myself, because even the admins say that the effect of the costume for increased skill learning should be active, but I am confused about something in regards to that when it concerns wagon breeding, since we already know that horse costumes have no effect when attached to a wagon.

Does this also mean that wagon raised horses aren't getting the increased skill learning chance granted by the costume on the trainer also?

Oh I did not know that horse costumes have no effect when attached to wagon, did I miss something obvious?  That's a shame if that is the case, as a pure wagon leveller I would be disappointed that I have spent cash on 2 of these costumes.:(

 

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Posted (edited)

T7I + T7E = T6I female
T7I + T7E = T7E female
exchange = T7E male
T7I + T7E = T6A female

i´m in the mood to breed all my t7 away... x)

Edited by RainbowRat

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Posted

-The professional training clothes directly reference Skill EXP. Some will say this effects how fast you can train a skill the horse has already learned, but this is referred to as proficiency NOT skill exp in other pearl shop items. Plus, I see no difference in training skill proficiency with or without the training clothes, leading me to believe there is in fact a separate Skill EXP stat.

I always assumed that Skill Experience itself was a direct reference to your personal training skill level (i.e. the one worn by the trainer, not the horse).

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Posted

I always assumed that Skill Experience itself was a direct reference to your personal training skill level (i.e. the one worn by the trainer, not the horse).

Well, it specifically says "EXP and skill EXP the horse earns while ridden". Training xp is listed completely separately at the bottom of the costume.

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Posted

Hello there,

Oh I did not know that horse costumes have no effect when attached to wagon, did I miss something obvious?  That's a shame if that is the case, as a pure wagon leveller I would be disappointed that I have spent cash on 2 of these costumes.:(

 

Actually nobody could provide correct information about this. Nobody knows whether costumes work at all, let alone on wagons. but if this thesis makes the staff look into the increase % well then... I can roll with that statement :D

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Posted (edited)

Hello there,

Oh I did not know that horse costumes have no effect when attached to wagon, did I miss something obvious?  That's a shame if that is the case, as a pure wagon leveller I would be disappointed that I have spent cash on 2 of these costumes.:(

 

Someone I think mentioned it a bit earlier in the thread about how their spouse or significant other had done exactly the same as you.

It does make a bit of sense. My guess would be in how it is coded. For example - the horse costumes increase acceleration and movement speed, but wagon speed is completely normalized to what is listed on the wagon and its equipment, so maybe it's disabled since it would be something of a programming nightmare to disable only some of the bonus but keep other sections active (i.e. the experience bonus), or even worse to imagine, making it to where the speed and acceleration does translate into a normalized rate increase, which would mean calculating the speed of all four horses and then normalizing it...which to me would be actually SUPER awesome, but I can imagine it being a touch coding job.

Either way, this can definitely be proven, I think. I have a wagon and a horse costume. I can take a few samples myself along a straight away and determine time from start to destination, and whether or not the slight acceleration increases with, or without, the costume.

Edited by SilentZed

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Posted

Since there has been so much discussion about skills recently, I think it is important for new breeders to understand why veteran breeders adopted certain approaches ..........................................................................................................................

For T8s specifically, it can easily take over $100 in Skill Change coupons to get one of the rare S Skills. (I know of 2 people right off the bat this happened to, one of them is in my guild.) It seems to be cheaper to wait until the horse hits 30 and then cycle through multiple Appearance Change coupons instead, which is one of the few things that will actually give the horse more skills than it could have learned otherwise, and is the likeliest route to turning an ok t8 into a courser for t9 awakening.

All those approaches have right to life since we have a very little information. I developed a hybrid idea which I finally posted on the forum together with a poll for those who have T8s.

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/135749-do-horse-skill-failstacks-exist-poll-for-t8-owners/

Who knows, maybe this will help us to get closer to the truth..

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Posted (edited)

Well, the horse gear set has a chance to increase learning a skill.  That is what I am interested in about it.  Not sure how that specifically would be affected by being on a wagon.  Makes no sense for that aspect to be disabled.

But since BDO doesn't like explaining skill this and skill that and exp that and exp this and skill exp and skill chance, etc etc etc.......I feel there is so much guessing going on as to what is what in horse breeding/training.  That is frustrating.

Unless, we're talking about the training costume (training Exp)  or the Venia riding outfit (Horse Exp)...?  Did i get confused somewhere?

Edited by Starrberry
clarity
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Posted

Okies thanks for responding all.  I do hope it does give an increased chance at learning a skill regardless of whether or not on wagon.   If not, I do wish that they would clearly state any 'exceptions' on the cash purchase items, so you can make an informed choice pre purchase.  It is indeedy frustrating not knowing.  Thanks, and have a jolly lovely day all.  

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Posted

Since there has been so much discussion about skills recently, I think it is important for new breeders to understand why veteran breeders adopted certain approaches and the long-term results from those approaches before deciding whether to use pearls. This info was a reply to another thread on the forum, but needs to be here as well:

 

The approach breeders take to using pearl items for horses has to do with how we believe they learn skills. (This post is going to be long, fair warning.) There are essentially two schools of thought:

1) Some believe that horses learn skills via a random percent chance roll when the horse levels, with basic skills being weighted with a higher percent to roll/learn.

Based on this belief, certain trainers will buy skill change coupons and trade out something basic like Fore Chop every time the horse learns it as it levels, in order to increase the total number of skills learned (because it will keep learning an "easy to get skill" that can then be traded out for something rarer). However, time and time again, these horses still learn the average number of skills. This does not appear to change their potential for total skills learned in any way. The only advantage to this approach is failstacking towards a skill you want to learn and possibly increasing the chance of the horse learning that skill naturally as it levels.

Also based on this belief, some will brand the horse or equip a costume believing that it adds a small percentage increase in the chance to roll a skill.

2) The second school of thought is that the horse is gaining skill xp every time it levels, and when it reaches the next threshold it learns a skill.

After leveling so many horses, I have come to the conclusion that number 2 is the closest to being correct, and choosing which school of thought to follow does effect how you use pearl items, which I will explain in a moment.

This is why I think there is skill xp being gained:

-The professional training clothes directly reference Skill EXP. Some will say this effects how fast you can train a skill the horse has already learned, but this is referred to as proficiency NOT skill exp in other pearl shop items. Plus, I see no difference in training skill proficiency with or without the training clothes, leading me to believe there is in fact a separate Skill EXP stat.

-Horses don't randomly learn skills. This is the biggest argument against random percent to roll. Sometimes when you are horse training you will level 2 horses one right after the other that are carbon copies of each other. They learn the same skills at the same level. I have had up to 3 horses on a wagon follow the same exact pattern of skill learning. This is the biggest revealer in my opinion of how the skill system works:

a) horses are born with a randomly assigned preset skill hierarchy
b) that means a dumb horse will be dumb, it isn't just rng
c) you can disrupt the pattern by using pearl items but not by much

3) Pearl Shop Items

For a long time, horse costumes did appear to be bugged and produced a negative effect to skill learning. Around the time that they ninja nerfed horse skill gain, it seems they also tweaked the costumes fixing that issue. However, I have found something I cannot explain while leveling horses. It seems that the overall skill gain is improved by equipping the costume AFTER the horse has hit a skill learning sticking point. On my t8s that typically happens at around 8 skills and level 12-14. Right after equipping the costume, they will start learning skills again. And testing on lower tiers seems to indicate that removing and re-equipping the costume seems to negate the effect, so I think there is still some buggy code.

Do not waste money on Skill Change coupons as a way to increase the total number of skills the horse has. It won't help. Only use them to failstack towards skills you really want and to get rid of skills you don't.

For T8s specifically, it can easily take over $100 in Skill Change coupons to get one of the rare S Skills. (I know of 2 people right off the bat this happened to, one of them is in my guild.) It seems to be cheaper to wait until the horse hits 30 and then cycle through multiple Appearance Change coupons instead, which is one of the few things that will actually give the horse more skills than it could have learned otherwise, and is the likeliest route to turning an ok t8 into a courser for t9 awakening.

 

 

I'm sorry but I read a lot of assumptions and theories, but no proof of anything said above.  I'll explain simply why vet breeders use skills change coupons the way they do.  Very simply, they work more often than not.  Same thing as to why they don't use branding, because simply they don't work overwhelming majority of the time.

Using skills change coupon to reset popular learned skills such as Fore Chop and Hind Kick are not just to increase number of skills learned.  I mean it could be argued yes doing so does increase your chance of getting more skills, but often people do it because they are useless skills that could easily be swapped for something better.  My Fore Chop swap on my T8 last night while leveling gave me S: Instant Accel.  My Hind Kick swap this morning gave me IA.  That's 2 courser skills down, 2 skills that my horse may or may not learn himself sure, but I have them out of the way.  A T8 doesn't need 18 skills to be a courser, it just needs courser skills to be a courser.  

It's about playing with percentages and probability.  With 2 courser skills out of the way, my horse has that much higher chance at becoming a courser.  Plus if anybody is doing any counting, they'll note that the probability of seeing Fore Chop and Hind KIck again is very high.  Now what's the probability of seeing S: Sideways via auto learning? 

It's less about schools of thought but more from breeding experience.  You noted that you had 3 horses on a wagon that learned the same skills at the same levels, now my question is, just how often does that even happen?  In my probably 100+ breeding attempts I've seen that happen maybe once.  I don't think we can deduct anything from those rare occurrences and call it proof of anything.

BDO is all about RNG, I think that's one thing we all can agree on.  Whether you believe skills swap while leveling or not, you're playing with the random number generator one way or another.  This whole game is built on RNG and Pearl Abyss makes their money by throwing harsh RNG at you.  So you tend to work around that and do what works for you.  If leveling to 30 before skills change work for you, then by all means keep doing it.  But for many others, skills change while leveling up T8's work for them.  No method is 100%, otherwise we all would be doing the same things.

Oh and with the amount of potatoes I've leveled up, I don't believe one bit training clothing helps at all with skills learning.  These things if they work they should work often, but yet Fennels fill breeders' stables.  There would be no reason out of a wagon full of 4 horses, 2 would be Einsteins and 2 be Fennel-touched.  The fact that these are common occurrences kind of disapprove the theory that trainer's clothing help with skills learning.

 

 

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Posted

 

I'm sorry but I read a lot of assumptions and theories, but no proof of anything said above.  I'll explain simply why vet breeders use skills change coupons the way they do.  Very simply, they work more often than not.  Same thing as to why they don't use branding, because simply they don't work overwhelming majority of the time.

Using skills change coupon to reset popular learned skills such as Fore Chop and Hind Kick are not just to increase number of skills learned.  I mean it could be argued yes doing so does increase your chance of getting more skills, but often people do it because they are useless skills that could easily be swapped for something better.  My Fore Chop swap on my T8 last night while leveling gave me S: Instant Accel.  My Hind Kick swap this morning gave me IA.  That's 2 courser skills down, 2 skills that my horse may or may not learn himself sure, but I have them out of the way.  A T8 doesn't need 18 skills to be a courser, it just needs courser skills to be a courser.  

It's about playing with percentages and probability.  With 2 courser skills out of the way, my horse has that much higher chance at becoming a courser.  Plus if anybody is doing any counting, they'll note that the probability of seeing Fore Chop and Hind KIck again is very high.  Now what's the probability of seeing S: Sideways via auto learning? 

It's less about schools of thought but more from breeding experience.  You noted that you had 3 horses on a wagon that learned the same skills at the same levels, now my question is, just how often does that even happen?  In my probably 100+ breeding attempts I've seen that happen maybe once.  I don't think we can deduct anything from those rare occurrences and call it proof of anything.

BDO is all about RNG, I think that's one thing we all can agree on.  Whether you believe skills swap while leveling or not, you're playing with the random number generator one way or another.  This whole game is built on RNG and Pearl Abyss makes their money by throwing harsh RNG at you.  So you tend to work around that and do what works for you.  If leveling to 30 before skills change work for you, then by all means keep doing it.  But for many others, skills change while leveling up T8's work for them.  No method is 100%, otherwise we all would be doing the same things.

Oh and with the amount of potatoes I've leveled up, I don't believe one bit training clothing helps at all with skills learning.  These things if they work they should work often, but yet Fennels fill breeders' stables.  There would be no reason out of a wagon full of 4 horses, 2 would be Einsteins and 2 be Fennel-touched.  The fact that these are common occurrences kind of disapprove the theory that trainer's clothing help with skills learning.

 

 

Conqueror's pack player and horse breeder from day 1.... Leveled from pro3 to art2 without ever catching a horse back in the day (now art5). Followed all breeder's posted stats as well as my own related to skills. Stats show that coupons do not raise the total number of skills learned, but improve the skills the horse knows, which is exactly what I said in my post.

I am basically as veteran as they come.

And as for the clothes, they may not help. All I was quoting is what the clothes themselves say.

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Posted (edited)

For us to prove it empirically, we would need a large number of people willing to use two alts, or alternatively two people working in tandem with each other. One person's alt as a control (no costume, fresh training skill, using many horse controls from a stable (let's say T3Fs found in the wild since they are plentiful. It's controlling the level that would be difficult, but ideally, level 1. Scoping the horse market might help in this endeavor) , paired against the average skill discovery of the other using the costume (still fresh training skill and the same T3F horse controls) and both learning at the same rate (I'd say a small loop on an unoccupied road free of NPCs that might throw off the average time it takes).

Would likely need a large number of iterations, too (so either many people doing this and reporting their findings, or the same set of people doing this multiple times and reporting their data here).I'd think a sample size of around 100 of each would be sufficient to make a decent data backed theory about it.

I think something like that would not only put it to bed, but would give the entire horse breeding community more control and information about it.

Do you think this might help with your question, or is it an undertaking that is a bit too large for the potential gain it would bring?

Edited by SilentZed

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Posted

Pretty sure the majority of people here are using exchange coupons to increase max number of skills? sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn´t, but I personaly see this as their main purpose. secondary purpose is failstacking the shit outta that hope option and get a desired skill at 30.

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Posted

Everybody ever is getting T8 pure whites. I see SO MANY of them riding around now.

I've just sort of given up trying to get one. xD I'll take whatever.

Congrats Sea!

I can't even get a second T8....

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Posted

Everybody ever is getting T8 pure whites. I see SO MANY of them riding around now.

I've just sort of given up trying to get one. xD I'll take whatever.

Congrats Sea!

Not everybody, I have gotten 6 tier 8's and none of them are white. But no worries because it doesnt really matter regarding tier 9 anyway, purebred tier 8's are just if you want to look cute or you race horses which for me I care about neither, all I care about is getting a hell horse or pegasus -_-

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Posted (edited)

Part of the fun iI have had breeding horses,  is the theories.  How can I improve my chances?  There have been so many theories over the past year from "this stable is luckier than others" to ";low level alts get better results" to...well the list goes on and on. It is fun.

But remember you are entering a big Vegas like casino when you breed horses.  Sometimes the slots are "loose" and you get good results and a possible T8 jackpot.  Other-times, you should get up, walk, no run, and do something else for a while.  You might think you have it all figured out - how to win - but the House aka Pearl Abyss is in control, and the House always wins.  And there is nothing preventing the House from changing the payouts without you knowing, if they think they are not winning enough.. At any time.

How you play, whether you use skill change coupons often, or only later, whether you use breeding resets or not , premium appearance changes hoping for another skill, should be based on your own experience.  Also, obviously, your wallet.  9_9You can try what others have suggested works for them, but make up your own mind, based on your breeding results. The only one who knows for sure what is going on is the House, and they won' t tell. :)  We are too small of a group for our data pool to be significant.

There is immense satisfaction in getting a T8 after breeding your own stock from the very early levels.  Also lots of frustration en route. I will be hitting Artisan 10 shortly, and with four coursers, among my T8s, I just breed occasionally now, since it feels like endgame.  But very happy to encourage the new breeders, share in your successes and pass out the kleenex box when necessary.

 It has been said often, but breed horses for game enjoyment, not for money.  If you want that, fish. :)  

 

Edited by Ramblinrose
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Posted

I can't even get a second T8....

I'm with you here.  I am pretty much going backwards now....

 

  The fact that these are common occurrences kind of disapprove the theory that trainer's clothing help with skills learning.

 

 

I just want to clarify that the Trainer clothes description says it augments EXP and Skill EXP.  Nothing about the actual learning of skills.  I take this to mean it increases the chances of horse skill gains in the skill they have learned already like learning IA at 17% so this helps in getting that skill to 100% along with the increase in horse exp for leveling it.

However, HORSE GEAR outfits DO say they increase the chance to Learn a skill when all parts are equipped.  I take this to mean that each time my horse levels, wearing horse gear outfits increase the chance it will learn a skill.

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Posted

@Ramblinrose

And there is nothing preventing the House from changing the payouts without you knowing, if they think they are not winning enough.. At any time.

That's something I always considered, because I don't know how often they change things like regional rating, or reducing chances at certain things, buffing others, etc., so I go in usually full knowing that any sort of evidence I try to gather might end up being unusable in the wake of a patch. It's something I still always like doing though, especially if for some reason my findings can help others.

That said, I am still extremely new by standards, both to the game and horse breeding in general, so apologies if a lot of what I propose sounds unnecessary, needlessly complicated, or entirely unfeasible.

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Posted

Managed to breed this beauty just now!

2017-03-16_20988433.thumb.JPG.791cafb9ff

Level 29 Male T6C x Level 25 Female T6R -> Female T7C :x

If only I had this level of luck for a T8C though ugh.

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Posted

I'm with you here.  I am pretty much going backwards now....

I just want to clarify that the Trainer clothes description says it augments EXP and Skill EXP.  Nothing about the actual learning of skills.  I take this to mean it increases the chances of horse skill gains in the skill they have learned already like learning IA at 17% so this helps in getting that skill to 100% along with the increase in horse exp for leveling it.

However, HORSE GEAR outfits DO say they increase the chance to Learn a skill when all parts are equipped.  I take this to mean that each time my horse levels, wearing horse gear outfits increase the chance it will learn a skill.

And, just for my own personal clarification, doesn't this mean it could simply be increasing Horse Experience gained (EXP) and Training Skill on the character gains (Skill EXP), because that is how I interpreted that.

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Posted

@Ramblinrose

And there is nothing preventing the House from changing the payouts without you knowing, if they think they are not winning enough.. At any time.

That's something I always considered, because I don't know how often they change things like regional rating, or reducing chances at certain things, buffing others, etc., so I go in usually full knowing that any sort of evidence I try to gather might end up being unusable in the wake of a patch. It's something I still always like doing though, especially if for some reason my findings can help others.

That said, I am still extremely new by standards, both to the game and horse breeding in general, so apologies if a lot of what I propose sounds unnecessary, needlessly complicated, or entirely unfeasible.

Don't apologize for theory crafting - as I said, it is a lot of fun to do and who knows, you could be right.  Or someone else could be right...lol...that's why I said base it on your own breeding experience, keep sharing info, and but above all, have fun while doing it. 

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Posted (edited)

And, just for my own personal clarification, doesn't this mean it could simply be increasing Horse Experience gained (EXP) and Training Skill on the character gains (Skill EXP), because that is how I interpreted that.

Yes it could.  I didn't include the training exp for char which is highlighted in bright yellow (specifically that our training skill is increased by 10+%)on the trainer clothing while the other info  is just in a dull colored, you may not bother reading it, paragraph above it :D   So it may mean just those 2 things. 

But...I think in the paragraph I take from it 2 bonuses plus the highlighted bonus making a total of 3 bonuses on the training clothes since they are all worded individually implying each are something different.

Edited by Starrberry
clarity

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