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Ship Building and the Fixed Market Price - Supply and Demand?


79 posts in this topic

Posted

lol. capitalist pig. What we need is an Epheria boat to appear in the daily attendance award. lol

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What's the downside of having a free market where one person can control the economy? What's the downside of usable scantling going up to 300k because that's the price I'm willing to pay for them? What's the downside of a system that favours only the very rich rather than giving everyone an equal chance? Honestly, can't think of a downside at all. :) 

1. No one person is wealthy enough to control the whole market, even the richest only has around 10-20 billion. U will need 1000 times that to control the market.

2. If u can sell ur log for 300k u can make a fortune real quick, I would do that in a heartbeat.

3. Right now the system only favors those extremely lucky, which is worse than favoring the rich. U should know that u can grind to get rich but u can never, ever get lucky, and some ppl are just born with shit luck they can't do shit about it.

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Posted

What's the downside of having a free market where one person can control the economy? What's the downside of usable scantling going up to 300k because that's the price I'm willing to pay for them? What's the downside of a system that favours only the very rich rather than giving everyone an equal chance? Honestly, can't think of a downside at all. :) 

If scantlings sold for 300k each, thousands of player would start gathering logs 24/7 for easy cash. I know I would. Soon enough the market would be flooded with scantlings.

They wouldn't stay at 300k each for more than a few minutes lol.

Unlike current system were no one wants to farm to sell anything, including scantlings, because underpriced as hell. Selling feels like giving stuff away to lazy people.

The only positive aspect of current system(with ridiculously low set prices), is the fact that people have to learn to do stuff themselves. Because crafting or enchanting yourself is usually way faster than trying to buy. This prevents boredom and creates content to a certain degree.

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Posted

"Communist price fixing" protects us and our comrades from being taken advantage off. Whilst some items may not be worth making for profit, others are kept in check so that they can be bought by both rich and poor users. It's not about crafting the most expensive item, but about finding what item will sell the best for the least amount of resources used. 

As soon as you switch to a free market economy then you allow users with billions in silver to not only control the supply, but to also control the prices. Sure it might suck that something doesn't rise in price, but the game does offer you a way to make guaranteed profit from crafting without having to rely on other people. 

Im getting triggered by reading this each and every day and thats mainly due to 2 reasons:

1: I hate the market system in this game.

2: I think you are right.

Its just a sucky feeling to dislike a part of the game and know that there is no good solution that isnt basicly remaking the entire game.

 

 

There are so many things in the game that have an "okay" supply but there rly isnt anything you can do to speed it up manualy and all those items are at risk of becoming monopolized by endgame players if the market went free.

Only way to fix this is to add so many more sources of pretty much every item and material that has some relevance that any attempt at monopolizing an item/material would result in the most market aware grinders adjusting their grinding spots to mach what item is currently in demand and make some extra profit from selling those before the majority of players follow suit.

Other things that would need to happen is that every item needs to be craftable and not to mention how extremely well they would have to balance all life skills so that they are all relatively close in monetary gains.

I just see no realistic solution...

 

We will most likely be stuck with systems similar to this one even for future game titles simply because a free market doesnt work when there are so much cheating -----ing -----suckers and botters around and the guy who finds a solution to that problem will probably win the nobel prize for it.

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Posted

One thing I kinda miss that you had in other games, was the ability to "set up shop" and have goods for sale. You could set your own prices (within reason), and you could wander around browsing the "shops" of other people. Granted, this system DOES have flaws (gold selling, controlling the flow of $$ to name a few), but I miss that "window shopping" feel.

I just miss that "face to face" trading that some games offer. I rarely (if ever) party with people (not that I'm opposed to it) outside of sieges/NWs. This feels more single player with multi-player elements than an actual multi-player game sometimes.

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Posted

T6 = 15 million

T7 = 50 million (333% price increase)

T8 = 150-200 million (350% price increase)

The prices increase at the same rate, there are many reasons for the rarity of a T8 and increasing the price may not necessarily change that. 

So a T8 is worth less than half of a TRI Kzarka/Dande.

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Posted

1. No one person is wealthy enough to control the whole market, even the richest only has around 10-20 billion. U will need 1000 times that to control the market.

They start with 10 billion, they buy up all the expensive items and then re-list them for double or triple their price. Anytime someone wants to list lower they can buy the expensive/rare item and just re-list it. This is the sort of economy that exists in other games and these games are usually controlled by one player, a guild or a handful of players. 

2. If u can sell ur log for 300k u can make a fortune real quick, I would do that in a heartbeat.

You said that the price of an item is what someone dictates the price to be, therefore under your proposed economy the prices of usable scantling would be 300k and all related items would have to rise in price this meet this initial price. After a few days suddenly cooking utensils are worth millions and things like Epheria Sailboat will be worth multiple billions. You say that no one can afford these prices, but suddenly all the people who have been selling scantling have that silver to spend and the economy, and therefore marketplace, is skewed towards them. 

3. Right now the system only favors those extremely lucky, which is worse than favoring the rich. U should know that u can grind to get rich but u can never, ever get lucky, and some ppl are just born with shit luck they can't do shit about it.

You do understand that luck isn't inherent for every person, right? Some people get lucky with weapons and others get lucky with armour. Some people are lucky with drops and some people are lucky with workers. You're proposing that luck exists only for a certain group of players and they will always be lucky which is quite simply impossible. What is rather ridiculous is that you're saying a system that is FAIR and treats everyone equally is somehow worse than a system that favours only the rich. 

If scantlings sold for 300k each, thousands of player would start gathering logs 24/7 for easy cash. I know I would. Soon enough the market would be flooded with scantlings.

They wouldn't stay at 300k each for more than a few minutes lol.

Unlike current system were no one wants to farm to sell anything, including scantlings, because underpriced as hell. Selling feels like giving stuff away to lazy people.

The only positive aspect of current system(with ridiculously low set prices), is the fact that people have to learn to do stuff themselves. Because crafting or enchanting yourself is usually way faster than trying to buy. This prevents boredom and creates content to a certain degree.

You are aware that you're not supposed to chop wood so you can make scantlings to sell, right? You make scantlings so that you can craft them into either furniture to sell or so you can make utensils and get on the way to 1s cooking and make millions that way. You have to understand what items sell best and what items don't, that is the key to making this economy work for you. 

There are so many things in the game that have an "okay" supply but there rly isnt anything you can do to speed it up manualy and all those items are at risk of becoming monopolized by endgame players if the market went free.

I craft the new coral belts non-stop and have even received threats and insults because I have a constant pre-order set up for coral. What BDO does right is that any of the base items which are in short supply can be easily harvested by any player, no matter their level or how much silver they have. In a 24 hour period I'll probably receive around 400 coral through the pre-orders whereas a full energy gathering session will net me close to 3,000 of them. This means that despite my pre-orders there's nothing to stop a poor or low level player from competing with me by making the end-tier belts. Due to BDO's set prices I also can't squeeze however much profit I want by making the belts PRI or DUO, I can't force people to pay the prices I want and I have to abide by the prices that are fixed.

People seem to think that all that needs to be done is to have an open market but they don't realise that the base game itself would have to be changed to have this market. You'd have to lock gathering behind a skill level or force people to choose one profession so that you limit how much money people can make. 

So a T8 is worth less than half of a TRI Kzarka/Dande.

A TRI Kzarka requires good RNG, active gathering to find shards, silver/items to build up FS, MF to repair and a RNG drop from a boss (or silver to buy from the marketplace). 

A T8 requires good RNG and the ability to keep your PC on. 

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Posted

A T8 requires good RNG and the ability to keep your PC on. 

A truly good T8 requires active leveling it, using skill coupons every level to swap out skills. I would never AFK level a T8 and "pray" for good skills. Mine ended up with all but 1 skill missing (by choice) and 158% some odd speed.. 208 mil for that is nothing for the time invested leveling it, much less actually GETTING IT.

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Posted

A truly good T8 requires active leveling it, using skill coupons every level to swap out skills. I would never AFK level a T8 and "pray" for good skills. Mine ended up with all but 1 skill missing (by choice) and 158% some odd speed.. 208 mil for that is nothing for the time invested leveling it, much less actually GETTING IT.

Who cares about silver price when T8 is only way in game to actually earn in safe way real money or pearls in game? 

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Posted

A truly good T8 requires active leveling it, using skill coupons every level to swap out skills. 

Sorry, it doesn't. This is my personal T8 with no accessories on him and I levelled him to 30 before using skill change coupons, you don't need to actively level him you only need to have good RNG. 

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Posted

Sorry, it doesn't. This is my personal T8 with no accessories on him and I levelled him to 30 before using skill change coupons, you don't need to actively level him you only need to have good RNG

Which many of us do not. I've been here since CBT2, not a single boss drop. Best was tree spirit belt once, I think 4 liverto or so. Many hours at crescents/fogans, etc. 1 crescent. lol. I am not RNG blessed. I life skill my $$.

Curious how many coupons/appearance changes you used to get that.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion on the matter. I've said mine. I'm out.

Who cares about silver price when T8 is only way in game to actually earn in safe way real money or pearls in game? 

You know...perhaps I've been going about horse breeding all wrong. I hate seeing all the "for pearls" etc posts, so I personally do not do that. Probably missed out on a lot though. Won't matter when we get the KR horse market changes that have a 10 min registration. Didn't think about that though. Kudos to you, valid point.

 

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Posted

"Communist price fixing" protects us and our comrades from being taken advantage off. Whilst some items may not be worth making for profit, others are kept in check so that they can be bought by both rich and poor users. It's not about crafting the most expensive item, but about finding what item will sell the best for the least amount of resources used. 

As soon as you switch to a free market economy then you allow users with billions in silver to not only control the supply, but to also control the prices. Sure it might suck that something doesn't rise in price, but the game does offer you a way to make guaranteed profit from crafting without having to rely on other people. 

Comrade.

Sorry, it doesn't. This is my personal T8 with no accessories on him and I levelled him to 30 before using skill change coupons, you don't need to actively level him you only need to have good RNG. 

Your horse looks a lot like mine, except mine had a stroke as a foal.

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Posted

Which many of us do not.

Source? Let's make a rule where you can't claim to speak for others unless you've got the evidence to show that you speak for the "many". Everyone has the same chance with horses, RNG doesn't just favour one specific person, it treats every equally so you can't use the fact that you've had bad luck with one horse as an excuse.

I've been here since CBT2, not a single boss drop. Best was tree spirit belt once, I think 4 liverto or so. Many hours at crescents/fogans, etc. 1 crescent. lol. I am not RNG blessed. I life skill my $$.

And some people haven't had a tree spirit belt drop, or a liverto, or a crescent. 

Curious how many coupons/appearance changes you used to get that.

8 skill changes coupons and 4 training coupons. 

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Posted

True. I dont think Ive ever met a gold seller in this game.

Usually, you get bombarded with whispers from gold sellers advertising their page.

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Posted

They start with 10 billion, they buy up all the expensive items and then re-list them for double or triple their price. Anytime someone wants to list lower they can buy the expensive/rare item and just re-list it. This is the sort of economy that exists in other games and these games are usually controlled by one player, a guild or a handful of players.

This could only happen with non-craftable items, e.g. boss loot. These could stay price locked along with pearl items, but for everything else it should be perfectly fine to have a completely free market. Because of how gathering and production in this game works, any attempt to control the market would be very risky and likely result in losses, while also benefiting anyone who pays attention and takes advantage of it.

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Posted

https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/338 Here is your source you dumb -----... If most dont even have a horse due to harsh RNG, they cant have good abilities...

How many people are training horses? How many people have decided to smash their T7 and aren't content with keeping them? How many people are actively training for more attempts? How long ago is this data from? How many people are content with their RNG? 

I understand you get triggerd enough to use insults (once again, I urge you to use the ignore function if you can't control your emotions) but I was focusing on the fact that you can't say "most of us" without evidence. People on these forums tend to lie and pretend they speak for more than one person to somehow validate their point when really they can only speak for themselves (and the odd person that will quote this and say 'they speak for me hurr durr')

Also, we were talking about a horse learning sufficient skills by level 30 as Keytal was stating that apparently you can't AFK train a T8 horse to level 30 without it losing out on skills. :) 

This could only happen with non-craftable items, e.g. boss loot. These could stay price locked along with pearl items, but for everything else it should be perfectly fine to have a completely free market. Because of how gathering and production in this game works, any attempt to control the market would be very risky and likely result in losses, while also benefiting anyone who pays attention and takes advantage of it.

As I pointed out above, and in many other threads, it wouldn't even work for base items as a single person, guild or small handful of people would be able to control the prices by simply buying up the stock and then re-listing it. Things like milk, logs and rough stones are immensely popular and useful because they are the basic items for making millions ( and billions) which is why they are consistently sold out. As soon as you allow these items to be sold at any price you don't suddenly make them appear on the market, you merely cause the price to skyrocket and price out the average player. 

A free market economy doesn't suddenly make the available marketplace supply increase (although you will get more people going out to gather perhaps, the demand will also increase as the supply does) it just ensures that every player is no longer on a level playing field when it comes to purchasing. 

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Posted

 

As I pointed out above, and in many other threads, it wouldn't even work for base items as a single person, guild or small handful of people would be able to control the prices by simply buying up the stock and then re-listing it. Things like milk, logs and rough stones are immensely popular and useful because they are the basic items for making millions ( and billions) which is why they are consistently sold out. As soon as you allow these items to be sold at any price you don't suddenly make them appear on the market, you merely cause the price to skyrocket and price out the average player. 

A free market economy doesn't suddenly make the available marketplace supply increase (although you will get more people going out to gather perhaps, the demand will also increase as the supply does) it just ensures that every player is no longer on a level playing field when it comes to purchasing. 

What will happen if someone tries that is everyone and his dog will rush to gather logs/mining/whatever, and whoever has them stockpiled will list them, undercut you, and the prices will drop like a sack of shit. Even in EVE even with its 1-3% tax trying to play the common item market was risky, doing that in BDO with the 15.5% will just lose you silver more often than not. Even if you manage to make some profit, the prices won't stay high for very long.

Also, don't forget that certain items are popular and always sold out precisely because their prices are locked to be artificially low. Make them even twice or three times as expensive, and they won't be making you millions anymore, so the demand will drop.

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Posted

Holy good god @Plunge

I seriously have to ask you...  How much time do you spend looking at yourself in the mirror each day?

Anyways.. you make some great arguments. Much like a politician, sadly. Its too bad your product is snake oil and too many of us around here have already bought some, used it and are not so easily mislead to buy another bottle.

 

You are way off base on your whole free market argument.  You are making claims to how the end result would become when there is no way in the world you could possibly know these things. You could NOT KNOW how a Free Market would go in Black Desert one way OR another. It is only speculation that you try convincing us (and worse, yourself) that the market would be bought out by single rich person, guild or whatever. Thats complete Crap.  Sure, it may be attempted at some point, and maybe even accomplished in some ways..  but theres no way anyone could do that and keep it up for any length of time the way this game is structured --gathering and all, as already pointed out.

As to your arguments with horses. Well, thats even out there further than your market/economy sewage you been spewing out here.

If you hade spent any amount of time doing horse taming to breed up tiers to hopefully achieve that T8 (for whatever your reasoning are for wanting it) you would not have even ARGUED with the horse topics mentioned. Horse prices are not accurate when compared to players efforts and money's spent, bottom line. Really, I think its more the 30 or 35% TAX on the final sale that is the biggest upset, tbo. If that was reduced to say, 15% tax, I would be willing to bet the horse market would start opening up slowly over time again, and people might be comfortable with that.

I cold go on, but I dont need to state the obvious any further.  Its almost like you either have someone feeding you insider tips of some sort that gives you an edge (so you can make all these arguments on how things are just fine how they are, because after all, you have a friend upstairs we dont know about *wink wink*) OR you are affiliated somehow, and just here to poor kool aid for us commoners.. 

naaa.  your just an exceptional person that knows whats best for us all..  and just cant seem to find the right way to make us understand, right?

 

take care buddy

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Posted

What will happen if someone tries that is everyone and his dog will rush to gather logs/mining/whatever, and whoever has them stockpiled will list them, undercut you, and the prices will drop like a sack of shit.

And what happens when the price tanks? People stop gathering and the supply drops, so suddenly the prices shoots up again and the rich players that have stock-piled logs and been buying them up for weeks will suddenly start selling them and make a killing. Then the prices will drop again as everyone starts to gather and the whole process repeats itself. Welcomes to free market economies in games. :) 

 

You are way off base on your whole free market argument.  You are making claims to how the end result would become when there is no way in the world you could possibly know these things. You could NOT KNOW how a Free Market would go in Black Desert one way OR another. It is only speculation that you try convincing us (and worse, yourself) that the market would be bought out by single rich person, guild or whatever. Thats complete Crap.  Sure, it may be attempted at some point, and maybe even accomplished in some ways..  but theres no way anyone could do that and keep it up for any length of time the way this game is structured --gathering and all, as already pointed out.

You do realise that this argument works both ways, right? You don't know that the things I stated won't happen, no one knows what will happens but we can infer what will happen by looking at how free market economies have worked in other games. 

If you hade spent any amount of time doing horse taming to breed up tiers to hopefully achieve that T8 (for whatever your reasoning are for wanting it) you would not have even ARGUED with the horse topics mentioned. Horse prices are not accurate when compared to players efforts and money's spent, bottom line. Really, I think its more the 30 or 35% TAX on the final sale that is the biggest upset, tbo. If that was reduced to say, 15% tax, I would be willing to bet the horse market would start opening up slowly over time again, and people might be comfortable with that.

So because I disagree with you it means that I don't actually train horses, that's some sound logic. Whilst you're on a roll here do you mind answering a simple question for me, well two really. 1) What is it about horse training that makes it so difficult that you think you deserve more silver? After all you don't have to train horses when you're actively playing, you can leave them training whilst you're AFK. 2) If you think there are better ways to make mnoey whilst being totally AFK, why do you care about horse training and why not go perform these "better" AFK tasks? :) 

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No they don't. T8 would be well over 1 billion if rarity matched price.

lol raised t8 to 1 bil and youll see ppl making 5 bils every few weeks easily.

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Posted

So the value of usable scantling should be 300,000 silver per log because that's what I'm willing to pay? Sure sounds like an American capitalist pig economy where only the very rich can afford anything. 

excuse me? That's racist. I'm tired of ppl thinking all Americans are horrible greedy people. 

Also with all of the dcing the past couple of months it is pretty much impossible to afk lvl your horse. So it's not an afk activity anymore. The amount of time to breed to just get a t8 can be months. So yea. They are special. Way underpriced. I just hope you all ask for a nice price for t9s or be damned you'll be on a wagon watching it to keep it going for months just like the rest of us!. So good luck with that

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Nah Plunge, certain ppl are just unlucky, luck is inherent. There are those ppl who will never gonna get lucky that's y u c ppl quiting the game because of RNG.

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And what happens when the price tanks? People stop gathering and the supply drops, so suddenly the prices shoots up again and the rich players that have stock-piled logs and been buying them up for weeks will suddenly start selling them and make a killing. Then the prices will drop again as everyone starts to gather and the whole process repeats itself. Welcomes to free market economies in games. :)

Let's pretend that this is how it would actually happen. Where is the problem? Volatile markets are fine, because firstly, you don't need to be rich already to make a profit, anyone can "ride the waves" if they pay attention. And secondly, the issue you were concerned about, which is such items becoming overpriced and only available to the rich is not an issue because price fluctuations mean that the items are cheap at some points in time. So why not buy them then and stock up?

 

You do realise that this argument works both ways, right? You don't know that the things I stated won't happen, no one knows what will happens but we can infer what will happen by looking at how free market economies have worked in other games.

It is however very easy to tell what will not happen, and one of these things is prices skyrocketing out of control on common items, simply because you cannot monopolize anything in BDO. And inflation is highly unlikely to be a problem either, because the 15/35% MP tax alone is such a huge silver sink that it should keep everything in check.

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According to some people in this game, supply and demand isn't a real thing, and prices can totally be fixed at a certain range with no repercussions whatsoever. Crafters will totally invest obscene amounts of time and resources to make marginal profits or even loses to supply people with ships, rough stone, weeds, logs, eggs, milk, and other things because reasons. Otherwise they apparently think outright shortage and no available supplies is preferable to higher prices, people can be so stingy with their silver in a game where a person can easily make millions of it per hour of grinding.

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