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Results of Ryzen and BDO (✿◡‿◡)

76 posts in this topic

Posted

There is no competition on high end market. AMD bough it on them self by re-branding same gpu and slight overclocking it.

considering the bench around, yes there is some competition.

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Posted

considering the bench around, yes there is some competition.

The downgraded i7 vs overclocked ryzen ? 

Yea....

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Posted (edited)

The downgraded i7 vs overclocked ryzen ? 

Yea....

whatever if you want the "bash" thoses CPU, still doesnt change that they are still pretty performant compare to the high end intel for multi task, encoding and so, yeah for gaming intel remain better. That's what the bench i've looked at display. ( And the ratio performance - price have to be see tho )

But then ? what do you care ? competition is nice for customer anyway.

Edited by woots

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Posted

whatever if you want the "bash" thoses CPU, still doesnt change that they are still pretty performant compare to the high end intel for multi task, encoding and so, yeah for gaming intel remain better. That's what the bench i've looked at display. ( And the ratio performance - price have to be see tho )

But then ? what do you care ? competition is nice for customer anyway.

Actually I am sad because there is no real competition ;( 

Something that would awoke wild race like in '90

Intel and AMD would both be in deep shit if new competition would show on market.

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Posted (edited)

Actually I am sad because there is no real competition ;(

AMD never was a intel killer tho. But its still a competition because for a long time you had just nothing at all regarding AMD CPU, now there is something, like with the incoming AMD GPU. ( it might stop NVIDIA from abusing about pricing... )

 

 

Intel and AMD would both be in deep shit if new competition would show on market.

Eh, i dont know tho, i dont know how their work are supposed to be considered as sloppy to say that. Or maybe if someone come up direct come up with the carbon cpu thing i've quickly heard about there is some years ago.

 

But even about current CPU seems like thoses guys are starting to hit some cap because material limitation tho ( i might be wrong saying that )

Edited by woots

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Posted

You all said Ryzen wouldn't be useful for black desert. You all said black desert only uses four cores/threads. (✿◡‿◡)

 

 

 

useless. My 2500k n 1080 gtx does the same thing. Stop wasting money on amd trash. 

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Posted

So many people getting worked up because someone doesn't use a processor by their preferred manufacturer.

 

I also wonder when they will fix the performance of their game so you can play it on a reasonably good machine. I play with an i5 4600, a R9 390 and a SSD and still dont have stable 60 fps, mostly it is just 30 - 50 when fighting. Seeing the game running at a lot more frames makes me jealous of your pc :D

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Posted

6700K still going strong hoes

 

M4Y9DPg3qLzCEgR3wFiNd5-650-80.png

 

47U733E5vj7uXRrcY4eUZ5-650-80.png

tRnYjdx5JKhdF6WvUWJJe5-650-80.png

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Posted

Here's a vid of direct comparison with the same GPU used (gtx 970) and similar specs on other ends of the system 

 

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Posted (edited)

Anyone saying "once this game is optimized for 8 cores...": you don't just suddenly make something work with 8 cores instead of 4, or 4 instead of 2 ,or anything like that. The effort required to reprogram everything for a different number of threads that actually improves performance is much more than what is required to add content to the game.

And it's not like the devs haven't tried. BlackDesert64.exe is reporting 73 threads running right now for me just AFK in Sand Grain. But you've got a lot of these threads waiting on other threads to do things etc etc.. you could have 80 cores and if everything else was exactly the same, you might run faster than with 40 cores, if the threads were working in such a way that everything was able to work concurrently. 

But that's just now how things ever are.

Looking at my process list, the only thing written for just a single thread is a simple custom mouse accel driver. Most processes - even random things like a text expander, mumble, and even discord, have 4, a dozen, and almost 40 threads respectively. This stuff really makes an attempt to be properly multi-threaded. But even in a simple 2 thread example, you don't run twice as fast with 2 cores as you do with 1. And that's before considering what those threads are actually doing.

tldr it's not gonna happen

Edited by Nabutso

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Posted (edited)

Anyone saying "once this game is optimized for 8 cores...": you don't just suddenly make something work with 8 cores instead of 4, or 4 instead of 2 ,or anything like that. The effort required to reprogram everything for a different number of threads that actually improves performance is much more than what is required to add content to the game.

And it's not like the devs haven't tried. BlackDesert64.exe is reporting 73 threads running right now for me just AFK in Sand Grain. But you've got a lot of these threads waiting on other threads to do things etc etc.. you could have 80 cores and if everything else was exactly the same, you might run faster than with 40 cores, if the threads were working in such a way that everything was able to work concurrently. 

But that's just now how things ever are.

Looking at my process list, the only thing written for just a single thread is a simple custom mouse accel driver. Most processes - even random things like a text expander, mumble, and even discord, have 4, a dozen, and almost 40 threads respectively. This stuff really makes an attempt to be properly multi-threaded. But even in a simple 2 thread example, you don't run twice as fast with 2 cores as you do with 1. And that's before considering what those threads are actually doing.

tldr it's not gonna happen

Weirdly, it seems to be using all cores/threads since last patch though (would have to check with something more appropriate than afterburner). Before it was very clear that it wasn't the case.

And ryzen being a different architecture (2 times 4 cores) it needs some optimisations different of those made for Intel, doesn't need to rewrite the whole game to make use of more cores. The CPU is good enough to deal with that game on 4C/8T.

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted (edited)

"Using all cores/threads" isn't the same as using them to maximum efficiency. You have a lot of threads waiting on a lot of other threads - not just to finish their task, but waiting on others to do other things etc etc... so even if it's 'using' 8 cores instead of 4 on another system it doesn't need to be running faster in particular. Especially if each core itself is slower (typical of AMD). 

Writing to make things optimized for one CPU or another is a whole different story and should never be done because it's impossible to model everything perfectly for one CPU or types of CPUs. You don't write programs to run a certain way on certain machines - the OS is what decides how the program uses the hardware. The only thing that can even be compared to what you are suggesting is done in emulators where you can literally skip parts of the emulated CPU's abilities because you already know the result of such an instruction or sets of instructions - and this will only work in some programs (or games on an an emulator) in very specific circumstances. You don't have the luxury of controlling what the CPU does directly when you write a program. You can only ask the OS to do things for you. A change like you are suggesting would need to be done on the OS level, not the BDO devs. That's why you sometimes have performance increases with different Windows updates. But there's no way you'll get some sort of increase specifically implemented for BDO for a specific CPU, and because of that, the increases that may come later as an OS is updated or something, will tend to be very small - as they are targeted for everything running on that CPU and OS combination - and it is very likely that such updates will have little to do with the multithreading capabilities of a CPU.

 

Want to try increasing your performance? Try making a custom OS that does it better than Windows. In theory it is probably unreasonable but possible to create an OS designed to run one video game exceptionally well. But, you'd want to know exactly what BDO does at all times to do that. And no one here has that, or for almost any game for that matter.

Edited by Nabutso

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Posted (edited)

"Using all cores/threads" isn't the same as using them to maximum efficiency. You have a lot of threads waiting on a lot of other threads - not just to finish their task, but waiting on others to do other things etc etc... so even if it's 'using' 8 cores instead of 4 on another system it doesn't need to be running faster in particular. Especially if each core itself is slower (typical of AMD). 

Yes and no. Sure all cores won't be used at their fullest but you can see improvement in well threaded software and we can already see it, just not in games that are still very much relying on a main thread even though they are able to use multiple cores. But the paradigm is changing thanks to new libraries that are available to every game developer that supports hardware specifically made to be used with parallelism.

But even then, I'm pretty sure you would see an increase in performance going from an i3 to an i7 for example. And that would be thanks to the additional cores and hyperthreading. I know I saw one going from an i5 to an r7, and even if the r7's cores are stronger multi threading IS beneficial (and the new cores aren't that much slower anyway, it's mainly the clocks frequencies that gives high end Intel an advantage in this field atm). How much improvement you'll get from more cores depends of how the software is written.

Current gen consoles are built with an 8 core processor + dedicated GPU, do you think it was to impress potential customers or are we slowly improving software and getting able to use those more efficiently ?

Writing to make things optimized for one CPU or another is a whole different story and should never be done because it's impossible to model everything perfectly for one CPU or types of CPUs. You don't write programs to run a certain way on certain machines

You always do though. Just by compiling your program you are saying "i want my program to work/be optimised on/for that kind of cpu" (you target the family - x86 - usually though but it can be more precise). And you don't optimise for one or the other, you optimise for both as you can detect what you are running on. It's already happening too anyway (dota2, that DX12 RTS, TW:Warhammer and the next Betesda titles).

- the OS is what decides how the program uses the hardware.

Yes and no again, developers can decide on what core they run their threads.

Anyway, I'm not asking for anything (I would be happy with a vulkan rework of their engine though but it's not realistic), I'm just saying the game seems to be already able to use more threads (SMT/Hyperthreading threads, not software threads) than what you would expect.

 

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted

Current gen consoles are built with an 8 core processor + dedicated GPU, do you think it was to impress potential customers or are we slowly improving software and getting able to use those more efficiently ?

Of course the extra cores are being used, especially on a console where game developers have better access to the hardware. 

I did not mean to imply that having more cores is worse, just that it isn't always better. Even if the CPUs are the same otherwise, the program could be running 4 threads on a 4 core CPU but 2 of those threads may be requiring the other 2 threads to do things. So, it wouldn't run any faster with 4 instead of 2, except for the small boost that comes from the 4 core CPU running things that aren't those 2 threads simultaneously.

 

You always do though. Just by compiling your program you are saying "i want my program to work/be optimised on/for that kind of cpu" (you target the family - x86 - usually though but it can be more precise). And you don't optimise for one or the other, you optimise for both as you can detect what you are running on. It's already happening too anyway (dota2, that DX12 RTS, TW:Warhammer and the next Betesda titles).

Compiling is more generic than you believe. Compiling will not take into account the type of 'speed hacks' i was referring to when talking about emulators. Compiling is not smart enough to predict the future and all specific cases of operations it's doing, in what order, and when. You seem to agree that you don't optimize for a specific cpu.

Yes and no again, developers can decide on what core they run their threads

I'm not aware of this. You can decide after the fact in like task manager, but the OS decides where and when what processes run. Processes do not see cores, cores don't see processes. If you know how to do this otherwise, you should PM me. It'd be useful information.

Anyway, I'm not asking for anything (I would be happy with a vulkan rework of their engine though but it's not realistic), I'm just saying the game seems to be already able to use more threads (SMT/Hyperthreading threads, not software threads) than what you would expect.

I do not disagree! I just am trying to say that there is no reason to expect the game to improve it's performance with the same number of cores at some point. ie: people buy a 16 core CPU and expect it to be able to double their performance in a few years when the game magically runs 16 cores 'fully'.

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Posted (edited)

Of course the extra cores are being used, especially on a console where game developers have better access to the hardware. 

We now have APIs for PC that gives better access to the hardware. It's the whole point of Dx12 and Vulkan on top of making multi threading easier/a possibility.

I did not mean to imply that having more cores is worse, just that it isn't always better. Even if the CPUs are the same otherwise, the program could be running 4 threads on a 4 core CPU but 2 of those threads may be requiring the other 2 threads to do things. So, it wouldn't run any faster with 4 instead of 2, except for the small boost that comes from the 4 core CPU running things that aren't those 2 threads simultaneously.

Of course, there are software bottlenecks, algorithms that aren't really great at being multi threaded etc. I agree having more cores doesn't magically equals more performance.

Compiling is more generic than you believe. Compiling will not take into account the type of 'speed hacks' i was referring to when talking about emulators. Compiling is not smart enough to predict the future and all specific cases of operations it's doing, in what order, and when. You seem to agree that you don't optimize for a specific cpu.

No I know, that's why I said we usually target a family like x86 (while we see it as "Compiler ! Translate that in machine code for that family !" the translated code IS optimised for that family that shares a defined set of instructions). But I think Intel for example also provides a compiler that is obviously going to create code better optimised for Intel's processors. And no, I don't agree. Most of the industry is pretty much optimised for intel atm. It works on other CPUs "fine" because they share the same instructions, but it doesn't run better on Intel only because their CPUs are more powerful.

I'm not aware of this. You can decide after the fact in like task manager, but the OS decides where and when what processes run. Processes do not see cores, cores don't see processes. If you know how to do this otherwise, you should PM me. It'd be useful information.

There are API calls in the OS to do what you would do with the task manager. How do you think the task manager or software like process lasso does it in the first place ? ;)

And there are also API calls to know what kind of platform you're running on.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms686247(v=vs.85).aspx (you can search from that point for example)

I do not disagree! I just am trying to say that there is no reason to expect the game to improve it's performance with the same number of cores at some point. ie: people buy a 16 core CPU and expect it to be able to double their performance in a few years when the game magically runs 16 cores 'fully'.

 Ahah, yeah we agree.

 

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted

Our is literally a copy paste from their version with  an English translation, sometimes the translation doesn't even happen. (✿◡‿◡)

yeah.. i wish we could just copy paste applications like how you make it sound...............................
If this was the case half my team would be out of a job.

There are API calls in the OS to do what you would do with the task manager. How do you think the task manager does it in the first place ? ;)

And there are also API calls to know what kind of platform you're running on.

get out of here you dirty PowerSnail user </3

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Posted (edited)

get out of here you dirty PowerSnail user </3

lol. Enlighten me please as I don't know what you're referring to.

yeah.. i wish we could just copy paste applications like how you make it sound...............................If this was the case half my team would be out of a job.

I actually wish we were given the full Korean client with translated strings now that we are only missing a few pieces of content (unless they made it hell to translate). Patches wouldn't go through the high and lows they do each week.

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted

lol. Enlighten me please as I don't know what you're referring to.

I'm just being a nerd lol. All the powershell kids i work with(I'm not as good at it as they are) go on and on about winapi this and that and this and that. More so than the other notpowershellcrazy developers.

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Posted

I'm just being a nerd lol. All the powershell kids i work with(I'm not as good at it as they are) go on and on about winapi this and that and this and that. More so than the other notpowershellcrazy developers.

Oh. I'm just developing on Windows so I'm used to look there first ^^

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Posted

Something is going on with his CPU. My ryzen 1700 at 4GHz runs nothing less than 45-60 FPS at 4k maxed without high end mode. Does that mode even do anything?

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Posted (edited)

Something is going on with his CPU. My ryzen 1700 at 4GHz runs nothing less than 45-60 FPS at 4k maxed without high end mode. Does that mode even do anything?

There is something going on with the game (as far as I know, I'm still looking for an hypothetical problem on my end, but still no clue). I can go from 110fps to 40 without real reason. Even before I switched to Ryzen.

And yes High End do some stuff (mainly less pop-in, more details in the distance and better shadows I believe) but nothing worth the performance hit.

But I agree with him though, the gameS feels smoother.

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted

I've literally taken screen shots side by side and I cannot see anything.

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Posted

Explain this then. 

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/129129-ridiculously-low-fps/ 

The only difference is one is using amd and the other is using intel. (✿◡‿◡)

Alot of fps comes from having to tweak your system.

I can run 115 fps in bdo on a 5930k 980ti....  50-60 fps in heidel. 
But I had to tweak windows and nvidia settings to get that fps.

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Posted

I've literally taken screen shots side by side and I cannot see anything.

Ahah, consider it a way to force the game to use more of your CPU then :P

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Posted

I've literally taken screen shots side by side and I cannot see anything.

The textures farther out are better.
The shadows are more defined everywhere.

Those are two off the top of my head.  Draw distances are farther out.

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